How Do I Remove 1873 Winchester Bolt? (The Saga Continues)

[Shasta]

I've been working on cleaning up the Second Model 1873 Winchester 44-40 rifle I bought at the gun show last weekend. It was made in 1880, so all the screws and pins have been a little difficult to remove despite my soaking them with Kroil. The rifle has a broken extractor, so I am trying to remove the bolt for cleaning and extractor replacement.
My disassembly book says to drive out the front Link Pin, remove the Firing Pin Retractor, and slide the Firing Pin rearward out of the Breech Pin Base. The Link Pin came out OK, the Firing Pin Retractor was removed, but for the life of me I can't get the Firing Pin to release from the Breech Pin Base. Is there a trick to it, or am I just fighting old rust?

Here is a schematic of the 1873. Mine is slightly different in the lower tang area, but otherwise it looks the same.





SHASTA

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

If you have the retractor out then the FP should come out of the bolt. If it has been dry fired it's possible the FP is flared near the retractor slot.
To get the bolt out of the receiver you will most likely have to remove the dust cover #8,#9 &#10, too.

[Griff]

I've never worked on an original, so I'm just going by what I've picked up, and might not be correct. I think Lefty Dude has an original and might be a better source of info. IIRC, the originals had a one piece firing pin. So, if you hold down the hammer all the way, the pin should just come out to the rear over the top of the hammer, just as it does when you lever the bolt rearward, only it keeps moving. Is there a pin thru the bottom of the bolt that would hold the pin in place, to keep it from coming all the way back and out of the bolt?

Then with all the internals removed, (toggle links, lever and the carrier arm), along with the dust cover, the bolt can drop back into the action and come out thru the side.

[Shasta]

All internals are removed, along with the Dust Cover and the Dust Cover Guide. I even tried using a squeeze-type muzzleloader ramrod puller on the exposed portion of the firing pin with no luck. It is either very rusted in or there is a pin somewhere I'm not seeing that is not on the diagram. I suspect rust is the problem and will continue with frequent applications of Kroil.

The Firing Pin being flared at the Breech Block from dry-firing, as NKJ mentions, is a real possibility.

SHASTA

[Ben_Rumson]

Before you removed it...Did the retractor retract the FP at all?

[Shasta]

Before you removed it...Did the retractor retract the FP at all?

The firing pin appears to be frozen in a retracted state.

SHASTA

[Shasta]

OK, I tried to get the Firing Pin to move one way or the other by using pin punches and a small hammer. I didn't want to chance breaking the firing pin so did not get after it really hard. It will not budge. I've been applying Kroil every 20 minutes or so through the Firing Pin Retractor hole.

I'm thinking of applying some heat on the Breech Block using a pencil torch to concentrate the heat in a small area. Is this a good idea, or would it be risking damage to a hardened part?

I hate being stumped like this!

SHASTA

[Lefty Dude]

Grisley Adams has Original 73's, he can be of help if he see's this thread.

For the record, all of mine are uberti's.

[Shasta]

I finally got it out! With the rifle receiver mounted in a padded jaw vice, I used a 4" Crescent wrench on the flat at the back end of the Firing Pin to give it a twisting motion. Twisting it lightly back-and-forth allowed the Kroil oil to work in better. I could see that it was very well oiled between the Firing Pin and Breech Block, but the pin still would not move rearward.

I used a leather bootlace to make a tight loop around the Firing Pin just behind the receiver frame. With repeated sharp yanks forcing the Breech Block to impact the inside of the receiver, the Firing Pin finally came out. It was not rusted, just very crusty with old hardened oil and dirt.

Thanks to you that were kind enough to offer advice. It is appreciated.

SHASTA

[pwl44m]

Glad You got it out without any damage, hanging over that Fireplace really baked the crud in. Now You need to dig through Bettys parts boxes for some parts. I really should have bought one of those 94 recievers, don't know what I was thinkin (guess I wasn't).
Perry

[Mike D.]

Does she have any 1886 parts?

[pwl44m]

Does she have any 1886 parts?

I think She surely did, I was looking for Colt and 94 parts so didn't really notice. I did notice some parts in envelopes that were in the 94 box and they were marked for a 73. People do like they do at Wal-Mart, they don't put it back where they got it. grrr.
Perry

[JB]

It was not rusted, just very crusty with old hardened oil and dirt.
SHASTA

It had been a while since I'd completely tore one down, but I'd thought I remembered the bolt coming out fairly easy. It's amazing how old gunk can set up like concrete sometimes.

[Shasta]

It seems I'm just now getting to the REAL problem. I bought this old 1873 Winchester despite its rough exterior because it had a really good bore with strong rifling. I'm starting to form an opinion of just why that is the case.

I had previously noted that the firing pin appeared frozen in a retracted state. It was a struggle to get it removed from the breech block, but I suceeded. After removing the broken extractor and cleaning the parts, I noticed that the breech block had a screw-in firing pin bushing. I was able to remove the bushing allowing a very thorough cleaning of the firing pin hole through the breech block. When I tried to check the fit of the firing pin in the bushing, I discovered that the pin was too big to fit through the hole in the bushing! No wonder that firing pin appeared retracted! A little research along with inspection of two original 1873 44-40's at a local shop leads me to believe that the 44-40's did not have a bushed breech block.

I am of the opinion that at some time in the past, someone either replaced the breech block or got it mixed up with the parts from another 1873 rifle. This breech block is for the smaller caliber 32-20 rifle, rendering this 44-40 rifle inoperable. Since it wouldn't fire, it was probably set aside out in the barn or shed and left to neglect.

Here is a picture of the parts in question. Note how the firing pin tip does not protrude through the breech block bushing, despite being seated all the way in. The broken extractor is on the right:




I'm now on the lookout for a proper breech block and a replacement extractor.

SHASTA

[Shasta]

It occurred to me that perhaps I could tell what caliber my 1873's breech bolt was for by using a cartridge case to compare size. A 32-20 cartridge rim resting on the cartridge support nub at the bottom of the bolt face did not align the primer hole with the firing pin. A .44-40 cartridge case aligned perfectly. OK, now I know it really IS a correct .44-40 breech bolt.




I compared the firing pin to a known model 1873 .44-40 pin that a local gunsmith had in his parts bins. It was a match, so the firing pin was eliminated as an issue. The only thing not fitting in was the bushing in the nose of the breech block. It did not allow the firing pin to go far enough forward, so that is where I decided to concentrate my efforts.

After an extensive internet search I could find no mention anywhere of a Winchester Model 1873 Breech Block Bushing. My only remaining choice was to modify the Bushing I had. One of my older brothers is a lifelong machinist, so I took my Firing Pin, Breech Block, and Bushing to his shop to see what could be done. He has a keen understanding of all things metal, and with an explanation from me of what I was trying to accomplish, he took a few quick measurments with a dial caliper and determined that the hole in the Bushing needed to be opened .005" to accept the firing pin nose, and the Bushing was .040" too long to clear the shoulder on the firing pin. He centered the Bushing up in his lathe, opened the hole with a drill bit, and turned off the length at the threaded portion on the back side. This removed the internal 60° bevel needed for the Firing Pin's shoulder, so he carefully recut the shoulder area back into the Bushing. In about twenty minutes time, I had a recut Breech Block Bushing that accepted the Firing Pin perfectly, and the Firing Pin protruded just the right amount.




I took the parts home and reinstalled them in the rifle. Inserting a primed empty cartridge, the primer fired off just fine. Whew! Another piece of the puzzle solved. Now all I have to do is come up with a Cartridge Extractor, and the rifle will be ready to speak again after who knows how many years.

SHASTA

[J Miller]

Shasta,

Ain't it great when things actually work out?

Oh, can I borrow your brother for a while????

Joe

[Griff]

Congrats! That's exceedingly good news. Check Winchester Bob's for your extractor.

Shasta,
Ain't it great when things actually work out?
Oh, can I borrow your brother for a while????
Joe

Likewise!

[spaceman spiff]

I took the parts home and reinstalled them in the rifle. Inserting a primed empty cartridge, the primer fired off just fine. Whew! Another piece of the puzzle solved. Now all I have to do is come up with a Cartridge Extractor, and the rifle will be ready to speak again after who knows how many years.

SHASTA

Now how cool is that?

Good for you! It's righteous when things go as you wish them to be.


spaceman

[alnitak]

Amazing! You know, I go to work everyday and ... work. But you guys "got skillz"!

[perry owens]

Apparently the firing pin holes could erode to the point where the fired primer would flow back into the hole. Bushing the hole would cure it but in your case it was very badly done. A more common way of doing it was to silver solder a steel shim to the bolt face, but that would also alter the headspace - not always a bad thing with those old '73s.
Looks like the little cartridge rim support nub is in good shape on your bolt. If that is worn the cartridge rim will drop down off the extractor causing a world of hurt.
Perry Owens

[coyote nose]

This is an old post I know, but I am in the process of working on a bushed 1873 bolt myself. The problem this original poster had, I believe, was a wrong firing pin. Winchester changed its firing pin design once they stopped bushing the bolts around serial 92000. Shasta, you have the late style firing pin (short nose) when the bolt you used requires the early style (long nose, before serial number 92000). Evidently, in the past the original pin broke, then someone tried to fix it by installing a new late style pin. Would have posted this sooner but have been rather inactive on this site.....could have saved you some machining time. Anyway, how did the gun come out?

[Grizzly Adams]

Well, looks like you found a fix! Late to the party, but just to add to this thread: The Win 1873 came with three bolts, 44-38, 32, and 22. The 44-38 was made in two versions; one with a bushing and one without. The two are interchangeable, however, they each had a different firing pin which were different sizes. Apparently someone tried to install a firing pin from a non bushed bolt into a early 2nd model bushed bolt.

[Shasta]

This is an old post I know, but I am in the process of working on a bushed 1873 bolt myself. The problem this original poster had, I believe, was a wrong firing pin. Winchester changed its firing pin design once they stopped bushing the bolts around serial 92000. Shasta, you have the late style firing pin (short nose) when the bolt you used requires the early style (long nose, before serial number 92000). Evidently, in the past the original pin broke, then someone tried to fix it by installing a new late style pin. Would have posted this sooner but have been rather inactive on this site.....could have saved you some machining time. Anyway, how did the gun come out?

I have run close to 2,000 rounds through this rifle since modifying the bolt bushing, including winning a couple NRA Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette matches with it. The replacement extractor recently started acting up again by taking an upward-bent set and failing to extract. At the same time, the little nub on the bottom of the bolt face that supports the cartridge during extraction broke off, as is common for these old Winchesters. I found a very good 25 minute long YouTube video showing a proper repair for the broken off nub on an 1873 Winchester bolt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvA36sN4QWk


I don't have the ability to make the repair this correctly, so I decided to try a repair on the cheap. I had a small bead of metal applied by a tig welder.
I then ground, filed, and fit the weld until it duplicated the old nub. Sorry, I didn't think to photograph the repair job, but the breech-bolt is working fine again. The extractor was re-hardened and it too is working again. I have put about 200 rounds through it, and shot a 27x40 at last weekend's silhouette match with no gun problems.

SHASTA

[Grizzly Adams]

Shasta,

One possible reason for the tab breaking off could be the fit of the extractor. If it has too much down pressure, it can cause the cartridge rim to place undue stress on the rim support tab, and also possibly bend the extractor. Removing just enough material from the underside of the tip to allow just enough snap to go over the rim and hold, may prevent further difficulty. Just a thought.

Another cause for the tab breaking can be the timing, but from your description I don't think that is the issue.

Oh, and good shooting!

[Shasta]

Shasta,

One possible reason for the tab breaking off could be the fit of the extractor. If it has too much down pressure, it can cause the cartridge rim to place undue stress on the rim support tab, and also possibly bend the extractor. Removing just enough material from the underside of the tip to allow just enough snap to go over the rim and hold, may prevent further difficulty. Just a thought.

Another cause for the tab breaking can be the timing, but from your description I don't think that is the issue.

Oh, and good shooting!

Grizzly Adams,

Thanks for the thoughtful insight. I thought about what you said concerning too much down-pressure from the extractor causing the cartridge rim support tab to break off. Since my extractor seems soft and tends to eventually take an upward-bending set, I don't think it could have generated the pressure needed to break the tab.
I was in the middle of shooting an NRA Cowboy Lever Action Pistol Cartridge silhouette match when the tab broke off. I distinctly remember seeing the small piece of metal riding on top of a loaded round as it fed up on the carrier, and I knew exactly where it had come from. It would seem that the cartridge rim broke the tab off, but I know my ammunition's OAL is .040" short of maximum, so that makes me think your suggestion of a timing problem might just be it, although the action seems to function pretty smoothly. I plan to keep a close eye on the repaired tab and to be mindful of any hitches or pauses in the action function. I've seen quite a few Winchester 1873 bolts with the tab broken off, so maybe it is just a little design flaw.

SHASTA