Your thoughts on scout rifles

[Mescalero]

Mauser 96 with a M38 barrel, plastic stock, Redfield 2 1/2 power FIXED pistol scope, forward mounted, aftermarket trigger.
When I am in the mountains, I don't leave home without it
6.5x55MM
That Jag is still around.

[Malamute]

This seems like a lot of mentalizing about rifles people don't really use for anything because they are not best at anything. It seems to be about a mental state. Imagination - playing commando in the canyons of the mind. But a pistol cartridge carbine with a scope in detachable mounts will do many short jobs. A Model Seven with a scope will likely be a light handy choice in 308 or whatever would be great for medium and that is all that is necessary...

I'd suggest that what a scout, or psuedoscout, or any decent light rifle like your model 7 is best at, is being handy enough to have with you when you need it, accurate and powerful enough for whatever your needs dictate. It's not a target rifle, or a combat rifle with high capacity, and many won't win any beauty contest, just a good all around gun.

...and I carry a rifle with me from several times week, to every day, depending on how far I go out to walk. Nothing glamorous or rambo-esque, just like having one along for the critters I may run into. It's good country for anything from grizzlies on down, starting right outside my front door. I simply never ever go out in the hills without one. I even keep one in my work truck.

[Old Savage]

Mal - that sounds like a good idea there. Went prarie dog hunting on a ranch in Montana where they had just chased off a grizzly days earlier.

[Mescalero]

I even take it in the grader with me.

[Malamute]

Mal - that sounds like a good idea there. Went prarie dog hunting on a ranch in Montana where they had just chased off a grizzly days earlier.

They've been seeing, and trapping and relocating them all around me. Wolves are all over also. Neither make a habit of causing problems, I just feel better having a decent rifle along in case one decides to be different that day.

[Old Savage]

Mal - went back and read your original post and I must say I quite agree.

Now I thought the scope forward was the key, which to me seems the wrong place for a scope. Short light rifle - been around forever.

[tman]

Looked at the Mannlicher 6.5 from another post. got to modify the 99A to a full mannlicher stock with an 18.5" barrel. Saddle ring carbine stock would be a nice touch. For strickley Alaska hunting, wandering, gold mining, gonna stick to the Win 71, .348WCF 20" barrel.

[Streetstar]

Malamute put it well.

Also remember a flash suppressor was never part of the original requirement (only size, weight, caliber, options).
.

No, but if one thinks of it as a thread on crown protector, it makes more sense -- (although a crown protector would not have to be very big)

[madman4570]

Styer scout(for what you want/need) absolutely perfect.
A great gun/great caliber/---need nothing else!

[Molasses]

I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me, useless answer to a question nobody asked, etc, etc! What? Who? Put that camera down!

Uuuhhhmm, nevermind.

[tomtex]

I wonder what a scout Hand Gun, would be? *********This topic is to long here, I will post it on the forum.

[RKrodle]

I've found that the forward-mount scout scope doesn't work for me all the time. When light is good the set-up is terrific, but in some light conditions it's hard to get a sight picture. I've found that co-witnessing a red-dot or holographic sight with a set of ghost-ring peeps work pretty well for the ranges I do most of my shooting at. I zero at 100yds.

Since both the red-dot and scout scope are on quick-detach hardware, I have the option to swap either on or off depending on the need or environment. The ghost-ring and front sight are permanent on the rifle. If the scope breaks and the batteries in the red-dot die, I've still got a dependable set of sights.

Just more stuff to carry around.

FWiedner has a nice setup on his rifle as I witnessed recently. My opinion is the holographic sight is a better option then a scout scope. I ran into this first hand a few months back when my nephew came to visit and I took him and his girl friend hog hunting. I was using my scoped AR and he was using his AR with a holographic sight. I got off a round into a large hog while he was on the run right at dark. After waiting a few minutes my nephew came over from where he was at and we started tracking. By this time it was getting dark very quick. we found the hog holed up in some heavy brush and he was not a happy camper about us coming after him. By this time my scope was useless, heavy thick brush, close, and dark. he flipped on the weapon mounted light and went in and took care of the situation. After we drug the hog out to the open I asked to see his setup. The holographic in combo with a good light and it was like hunting in daylight and was VERY quick to acquire target.

This thread has totally confused me on what Col. Copper proposed originally for the Scout rifle. I was always under the impression that it was to be used in combat as part of a Marine Corp Fire Team. Giving the Fire Team controlled, precision aimed fire, with more range and a heavier caliber than the current 5.56mm round. Sort of like the Army is currently doing in Afghanistan with the DM concept using the scoped M14. I don't know if the Marines are using something similar or not.

With all that said I had a Marlin GG gun set up with a scout scope set up and did not like it. It was useless in low light situations. I would rather have a regular scoped or open sighted rifle. My next setup to try will be a Holographic sight.

[DPris]

Nope, you're off.
The Scout rifle concept had nothing whatever to do with Marines, team fire, or any specific military or combat application.
Denis

[RKrodle]

Nope, you're off.
The Scout rifle concept had nothing whatever to do with Marines, team fire, or any specific military or combat application.
Denis

Not the first time.

[DPris]

Denis

[Malamute]

Some basic background on the "Scout concept",

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle

[JB]

If only Mossberg had added a bayonet lug on 464 SPX

[L_Kilkenny]

I've read here and researched about the scout rifle since this thread started since my thinkin about the origins of the platform seemed to be a little misguided. I don't know why Cooper developed it. Claims seem to be towards a do it all field and hunting gun, fine, I can except that. But isn't that just reinventing the wheel?

Coopers original intent aside, current marketing of the scout rifle is not towards a hunting and field gun but as a tactical gun instead. Just about every article, TV program or advertisement is about the tactical uses of the scout concept. A role it is ill suited for. Think Gunsite is the slightest bit interested in promoting the hunting abilities of their namesake gun? Think Steyr is? Or Savage? Maybe that wasn't Coopers intent but that's what it's being pushed as 99% of the time.

LK

[DPris]

"Tactical" drives the larger part of the market today & sells very well, particularly to those who have no need for "tactical" & never will.
Denis

[Mescalero]

Thanks malamute,
Now I can get one the way I want it, caliber has always been a sticky issue with me.

The current crop are not offered in the bast of calibers.

[Malamute]

I've read here and researched about the scout rifle since this thread started since my thinkin about the origins of the platform seemed to be a little misguided. I don't know why Cooper developed it. Claims seem to be towards a do it all field and hunting gun, fine, I can except that. But isn't that just reinventing the wheel? ....

LK

I don't think it's reinventing the wheel, it's refining a concept, giving it more sharp defintiton on what it's role and capabilties are. In that regard, I think it was good effort. I disagree about the concept being ill suited as a defensive arm. Some of the attributes of other popular guns tend to be things like fast handling, short, handy to carry, able to operate in various roles and environments. Most sporter bolts are longer and heavier, as are the older military bolts (much heavier). You commented earlier about feeling the scout concept was a good validation of the Winchester 94 rather than a justification of itself. It's more than a 94. The 94 was part of the origin and inspiration, but the true scout concept gives much more range and power, while retaining the compactness and quick handling. Some have used them in rifle classes (as they have levers). Those that understand them seem to do rather well with them. It isn't perfect (despite what some hardcore fans believe), but it does many things well, better than many other arms. They simply aren't for everyone. Not everyone has the same needs or wants. Some probably can't appreciate the utility of some arms, especially the scout concept. Some seem offended that their deer gun would be considered a weapon. The tactical crowd laugh at anything that doesnt have large capacity detachable magazines and loads itself. I can appreciate the attributes of a variety of guns, for many various purposes. I also appreciate the purpose of the scout concept.

[FWiedner]

"Tactical" drives the larger part of the market today & sells very well, particularly to those who have no need for "tactical" & never will.
Denis

I'm sorry, but where exactly does "need" fit into the picture?

This concept offends me, Sir.

[Mescalero]

I have just written two replies to this subject, niether of them went through.
I guess I cut too deep and the censors disallowed it to post.

[DPris]

FW,
Don't mis-read my intent in that statement.
Not suggesting anybody NOT get the gun, the commentary was directed at the current marketing trend slanting the Scout rifle toward "tactical" as opposed to hunting or just plain general purpose utility use.

Slap "TACTICAL!" on just about anything, including a toilet plunger, and it'll induce certain people who never would have considered that particular offering otherwise to go buy one.
Whether their trusty & perfectly functional WalMart plunger works fine or not, they've got to have the "tactical" version.

Cooper used his Scouts purely for hunting, and the emphasis was on a general purpose use rather than a dedicated "tactical" weapon.
In its purest form, as he defined it, it could be used equally well for hunting or limited defensive engagements.
Denis

[tomtex]

A. Ruger 22 scout type would be a lot of fun, and for me it's the way to go. ( look-up Chief AJ )

[L_Kilkenny]

Mescalero, I understand fully where you are coming from. I settled on carbine length bolts(centerfire) and semis(rimfire) as my primary guns some time ago. As stated elsewhere I don't own a rifle with a barrel longer than 18.5". I wanted/needed more range and accuracy than I could get out of traditional lever actions but didnt want to wholesale give up on the handiness of a compact rifle. It's true that the "standard" for a sporter bolt gun has been full size rifles with 22" or longer barrels and I'm sure a scout rifle would be much handier. But shorter, lighter, handier bolt guns have been available long before Cooper developed his scout concept and his idea is far from original. Still, I find it about impossible to get the same ease of carry and handiness out of any other platforms as I do a lever action carbine. I can come close but not get there. A forward mounted scope on a bolt gun ain't gonna get me there either.

To be perfectly honest my dislike (maybe a bit strong, I don't dislike the concept) might very well have little to do with the platform itself. The marketing obviously has some bearing but the price increase for any limited gain, real or imagined, is where I also have a big issue. But then again that's why I shoot Savage's instead of Sako's and Ruger's instead of S&W's. Guess it's my poor man's mentality.

LK

[2ndovc]

A. Ruger 22 scout type would be a lot of fun, and for me it's the way to go. ( look-up Chief AJ )

That was my first one and got hooked!

Cheif AJ was a cool guy and did amazing things with 10/22. I'll never part with mine!

jb

[Malamute]

... I settled on carbine length bolts(centerfire) and semis(rimfire) as my primary guns some time ago. As stated elsewhere I don't own a rifle with a barrel longer than 18.5". I wanted/needed more range and accuracy than I could get out of traditional lever actions but didnt want to wholesale give up on the handiness of a compact rifle. It's true that the "standard" for a sporter bolt gun has been full size rifles with 22" or longer barrels and I'm sure a scout rifle would be much handier. But shorter, lighter, handier bolt guns have been available long before Cooper developed his scout concept and his idea is far from original. Still, I find it about impossible to get the same ease of carry and handiness out of any other platforms as I do a lever action carbine. I can come close but not get there. A forward mounted scope on a bolt gun ain't gonna get me there either.

To be perfectly honest my dislike (maybe a bit strong, I don't dislike the concept) might very well have little to do with the platform itself. The marketing obviously has some bearing but the price increase for any limited gain, real or imagined, is where I also have a big issue. But then again that's why I shoot Savage's instead of Sako's and Ruger's instead of S&W's. Guess it's my poor man's mentality.

LK

Your affection for carbine size bolt guns is right in line with the basic scout concept. You're most of the way there (not that you have to go any farther, just that what you like is very close). As you mentioned, carbine size bolt guns give more range and power than most levers. Thats probably the most prominent features of the concept, and you've got most of it with a shorter lighter bolt gun.

I also don't care for the forward mounted scope, I'm fine with a regular scope, with low power capability. I also like the handiness of a levergun, but most simply dont give the range, power and precision of a scoped bolt gun. Not everyone needs all those attributes for what they do.

As for the marketing, remember, it's a concept, not a product. Manufacturers have made their versions of the concept, as there seems to be somewhat of a market for them. The concept guns were custom built to the owners desires. High cost isnt required, tho most of the true custom scouts had features like integrel scope mounts machined from the barrel material, and weren't cheap guns, just a gun built to the end of the spectrum of what they wanted. It probably isnt much different than those that like restored 1886's, with color case hardened frames, custom barrels, fine grade wood, checkering etc. We can get a gun that will do basically the same thing for far less money, but they aren't quite the same thing. Some like octagin barrels, some round, some like psitol grips, some straight grips. Some appreciate the extra mile of effort, some don't. Just different tastes and levels of desire and commitment to an idea or concept.

I'm not crazy about the commercial scouts either, from a cost standpoint, and I just have different things I like in the short light rifle idea, but I understand those that buy the Steyrs and others. I think they are all excellent rifles, just not what I'm wanting.

And you are correct, it isn't an original idea. Cooper was impressed by McBrides writing (A Rifleman Went to War, his experience in WW1). McBride mentioned a captures German that had a very nice, light, short sporter rifle he was using. He laughed at the heavy bulky military rifles everyone was using. McBride saw and admired the utility and practicality of it right away. I think that was part of the seed that started the concept in Coopers mind.

[Mescalero]

Well, beside myself,I now know another person that has read " A rifleman went to war "

[Old Savage]

I always wondered if Jeff Cooper wasn't just putting the rifle sights out there where the pistol sights are or just where open sights would be.

[Malamute]

There's much more to it than that.

Have you read any of his books?

[Old Savage]

Cooper on Handguns is what I read. I have a Model 7 - it is about the same length as a 94 and the scope is where I can see it. So, IMO that is about where is goes as far as the best of that size. To me the scout rifle as mentioned earlier is a solution to a problem that does not exist but anyone can shoot with anything they want. Some are attached to the idea of open sights or peeps or firing pins on the hammer - whatever they like is fine but what advantage does the scout rifle have over a short action, short barreled bolt action hunting rifle?

[MrMurphy]

That's pretty much what it is just with certain exact size/weight limits.

The forward-mounted scope was a 1980s solution to what nowdays, you'd use an Aimpoint for. Cooper admitted electronic sights might be superior, but AT THAT TIME, they were neither rugged or reliable enough batterywise to be considered. Also why he added irons.

Wasn't supposed to be a combat rifle, though it would do in a pinch (while running the hell away), or a heavy game rifle, just one that would be very 'handy' and in a caliber sufficient enough to handle most tasks a rifle would be called on to do.

[Streetstar]

Thanks malamute,
Now I can get one the way I want it, caliber has always been a sticky issue with me.

The current crop are not offered in the bast of calibers.

.308 , 7mm-08 ? (scratching my head thinking about your reasoning on that --- short action medium power calibers seem to be right up a "scout" guns alley )

[Mescalero]

7mm-08 is ok

[Molasses]

That's pretty much what it is just with certain exact size/weight limits.

The forward-mounted scope was a 1980s solution to what nowdays, you'd use an Aimpoint for. Cooper admitted electronic sights might be superior, but AT THAT TIME, they were neither rugged or reliable enough batterywise to be considered. Also why he added irons.

Wasn't supposed to be a combat rifle, though it would do in a pinch (while running the hell away), or a heavy game rifle, just one that would be very 'handy' and in a caliber sufficient enough to handle most tasks a rifle would be called on to do.

Pretty much spot on, but I just re-read something Jeff Cooper wrote, datelined November 2002, that I thought might be helpful in shedding a little more light:

..."The essential element of the Scout rifle, as I see it, is "friendliness", combined with all-purpose utility. The piece should be short, light and handy, and still dispose of sufficient power and range to accomplish any reasonable task in the hands of a skilful rifleman.
The Scout Rifle need not be fitted with a telescope sight (!!!)."...

(bold text was bold in the original, likewise the exclamation points were in the original)

He goes on to talk about using the Remington model 600 (Scout I) with iron sights (from other writings and early photos, I think that was the factory "shark fin" front and a Williams receiver peep rear) before installing the forward mounted scope and said (about scoping the piece):

"but I do not think this improved its overall desirability."

[MrMurphy]

Yup.....most of the early custom Scouts had scopes, but you can bet not all of them did.