Which semi auto carbine would you buy?

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:08 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
preventec47 wrote:I bought 3000 rounds of 7.62 x 54 ammo real cheap and
got a cheap 91/30 to shoot them but I would like a semi auto
to shoot them. I have heard there are some miilitary semi autos that shoot them Anyone know what they are ?...
None are cheap.

There are the SVD clones and the PSL clones, but they are near unobtanium.

Don't forget the SVT40.

If you're feeling froggy, you can be on the lookout for a Winchster 1895 in 54R...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:19 am

Hobie wrote:I believe that everybody should have an AR type rifle in 5.56.

I've toyed with the idea of an AR in some cartridge or another for about 5 years now and I have yet to buy one .

What most of you characters want one for and what I'd use it for are two totally different things . So usually after about 2 weeks I have talked myself outta getting one . And generally start wanting an M1A again .

Now all in all I can't justify getting either . After I kill a deer with it I'll totally loose intrest in either of them . Kinda like the same time I consider getting an original M1 Garand and so far I've kept from doing that as well .

Do have a pair of M1 Carbines but in reality I most likely wouldn't have bought them myself .

Just can't seem to get into this semi auto military look alike or surplus stuff for the long haul . Hmmmm kinda the same reason I got tired of 1911's .

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:18 am

honestly I hate all AR type guns because the open sight line
is so far above the bore line compared to traditional rifles
where the sights are mounted just above the barrel bore
usually less than one inch. The reason is if you are shooting
small stuff less than 50 or 60 yards you always have to
be guessing how much too high you will be shooting. Since these were designed to shoot at people at greater distances
that is fine but plinking at cans and squirrels and turtles etc
is a nightmare. The high sight line even screws with the long
distance trajectories etc. Thats ok if you have done your homework with the proper programs and remembered to
enter in correct sight line height. For a carry gun plinker a
Ruger ranch rifle shoots a lot better than an AR type

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:14 am

preventec47 wrote:honestly I hate all AR type guns because the open sight line
is so far above the bore line compared to traditional rifles
where the sights are mounted just above the barrel bore
usually less than one inch. The reason is if you are shooting
small stuff less than 50 or 60 yards you always have to
be guessing how much too high you will be shooting. Since these were designed to shoot at people at greater distances
that is fine but plinking at cans and squirrels and turtles etc
is a nightmare. The high sight line even screws with the long
distance trajectories etc. Thats ok if you have done your homework with the proper programs and remembered to
enter in correct sight line height. For a carry gun plinker a
Ruger ranch rifle shoots a lot better than an AR type

Since the Ruger shoots the same cartridge, I'm having a hard time understanding how the trajectory is any different.

Line of sight above the bore does not affect trajectory of the bullet, since trajectory is based on bullet shape, velocity, air density and twist rate to an extent.

17 year old girls can qualify with the M16 shooting targets from 50M to 300M and they don't use programs.

If you can't shoot the AR properly at close distances, it's because the gun is not zeroed properly. Proper zero for the AR is 300M, not 100 yards like I see people doing regularly . With a 300M zero it will shoot to POA at 25M (about 27 yrds).

Regardless of line of sight above the bore, that is a maximum 6.25" rise at around 175 yards. At 75 yards it's 2.75". At 50 it's 1.25".

I have never seen a Ruger Mini that will shoot anywhere near as accurate as a standard AR. Even Rugers recent attempt to make an accurized version with the big giant weight on the end of the barrel have failed. That's because there is a design flaw where the gas port is located. There are companies that specialize in solving that problem. If you start spending money trying to accurize a Mini to shoot as well as a standard AR, then compare to what a Match AR will do for the price, it's not even close.

That doesn't even address the logistical problems of the Mini 14's overpriced proprietary magazines.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:23 am

Hobie wrote:I believe that everybody should have an AR type rifle in 5.56. Exactly what you have that takes M16 magazines in 5.56 is a matter of personal opinion and not really important. However, I think it is important that you get one now.

Hobie, you remind me of my dad's saying "every man should have at least one good rifle, and know how to use it". For dad that meant a bolt action 30-06. I think he was thinking along your lines in that the US military was using the 06 during his service, and for many years after.

To the OP. I'm not sold on gas piston guns. The original idea of the direct impingement was to reduce the number of parts (parts fail) and gas tubes and such are not as easily kept clean. Yes, you do get carbon build up on the bolt, but removing it for there is, IMHO, easier than the piston system. Still, it's the current "trend", and while the US military hasn't adopted it, it doesn't mean it isn't a good system. And I do have to agree with Hobie again, the exact pattern doesn't matter, just make sure you can use "common" magazines.

The magazine thing also gets me to thinking. I know there are slight differences in the 5.56 and the .223. I seem to remember it's better to use one in the other than the other way around. Can't remember exactly. But which ever way it is, I think getting one chambered in 5.56 is the way to go. Same reason as the mags.

By the way, I'm not sold completely on AR's. But my prejudices stem from using the original M-16, yes, original, not A1's. The originals had issues, had one myself. My boys gave me a Stag a few years back, and I can say I've had none of those problems, then again, I've not been in the same conditions. But one advantage of having an AR might still be the same today. If your's fails, there may be quite a few laying around.

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:29 am

[quote="sore shoulder"][quote="preventec47"]
Since the Ruger shoots the same cartridge, I'm having a hard time understanding how the trajectory is any different.
.[/quote]

Take your suitcase handled AR rifle and try to shoot the
head of a snake at 15 feet when the rifle is zeroed
for 200 yards. Then you will know what I am talking
about.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:33 am

awp101 wrote:
Pitchy wrote:Grats Mike, pics?

rjohns94 wrote:Pitchy, I will get them posted. Took some but have to get them transferred
7 minutes is enough time. Where are the pics?

Living proof that folks these day's only want to wait 250 nano seconds for the web to produce results.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:17 am

preventec47 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
preventec47 wrote: Since the Ruger shoots the same cartridge, I'm having a hard time understanding how the trajectory is any different.
.
Take your suitcase handled AR rifle and try to shoot the
head of a snake at 15 feet when the rifle is zeroed
for 200 yards. Then you will know what I am talking
about.

That is close range POI, not trajectory at longer ranges that you referred to earlier as requiring complex calculations.

When zeroed at 200 yards with a 2.5" LOS above the bore, at 15ft the drop is 2.22". With a 300M (328yrd) zero it's 2.05" drop. However I did some calculations and it turns out a few clicks on the rear sight elevation reduce that to less drop (.8") than your Mini zeroed at 200yrds with a 1.5" LOS above the bore (that was a guess), which is 1.25" BTW.

Regardless, even having to judge 2" holdover at spitting distances would seem to be an inconsequential trade off for a much more accurate gun that has probably the worlds largest supply chain of parts and accessories.

If you prefer the gun for your own personal reasons, that's great, I'm just pointing out some problems with your initial arguments.

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Some of those ARs line of sight has to be way more than
2.5 inches above the bore. How ever you want to explain
it that is why I dont like em. Just give me someone's traditional
semi autos unless I am venturing onto the battlefield I
dont really need the 30 rnd magazines

Not saying you cant worship them but for my walking in
the woods guns, I shoot at stuff too close too often.

The best gun for shooting stuff like rats close is my pellet pistol
as far as line of sight goes. I dont see how it could be much
more than a half inch above bore center

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:27 pm

preventec47 wrote:Some of those ARs line of sight has to be way more than
2.5 inches above the bore. How ever you want to explain
it that is why I dont like em. Just give me someone's traditional
semi autos unless I am venturing onto the battlefield I
dont really need the 30 rnd magazines

Not saying you cant worship them but for my walking in
the woods guns, I shoot at stuff too close too often.

The best gun for shooting stuff like rats close is my pellet pistol
as far as line of sight goes. I dont see how it could be much
more than a half inch above bore center

You probably would like an SKS

But remember on the same token if you want to shoot a crow at 100yds with that SKS or even that Ruger (maybe/maybe not)AR dead crow.
With any decent AR15 sighted in at 100yds shooting a can at 50yds/25yds is not a big deal.

For killing something at spitting distance/don't shoot it/wack it

Honestly, all depends where you want your main priority of use.(not any one gun is the best for everything)

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:38 pm

preventec47 wrote:Some of those ARs line of sight has to be way more than
2.5 inches above the bore.

I took that measurement off two different A2 Colt carry handles as I was typing the reply to you. I don't know what could be a more perfect representation.

Just give me someone's traditional
semi autos

Not sure how you qualify traditional. Here's how I do it.

The AR15 saw service starting in 1958, and was offered by Colt for civilian sales starting in 1963.

The mini14 wasn't introduced till '74, nearly 20 years after the first AR15 was put in service.

In 1999 alone over 100,000 AR 15's were built by various manufacturers. How many do you think have been made per year since Obama took office?

(Bushmaster alone sold 333,000 from 2000-2006, imagine what happened in 08' when everybody and their brother, including Ruger, started marketing AR's)

Very conservative estimates have AR 15 type rifle production at 8 million. Considering how may people build their own from stripped lowers I would say it could possibly be even double that number.

How many Ruger mini 14's have ever been produced? One Ruger official was quoted in 2000 as saying 1 million total at that time. I doubt even 1 million more have been built.

I bet more AR15's have been produced than all other domestic semi-auto designs combined.

And even though there were other semi auto rifles before the AR15, I would say the AR15 is probably the traditional semi-auto American rifle/carbine based on popularity and sales.

I can go down to Wal Mart and buy an AR 15, they are right next to the Marlin 336's on the rack. I can not buy a mini 14 at Wal Mart.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:00 pm

preventec47 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
preventec47 wrote: Since the Ruger shoots the same cartridge, I'm having a hard time understanding how the trajectory is any different.
.
Take your suitcase handled AR rifle and try to shoot the
head of a snake at 15 feet when the rifle is zeroed
for 200 yards. Then you will know what I am talking
about.

todays ARs are available with removable handles, and even strictly flat top designs. i have a few of each, and prefer the flat top with modern optical sights.

i was an AR skeptic many years ago, but a few hours at a range shooting pop up targets in singles and pairs from 75 to 350 meters when i was in the army ,convinced me of the ease of use and reliability and my need for one. when you can flatten two targets at those ranges, with iron sights, and before they get all the way upright, it is a confidence builder. i hope i never have to bet my life on things like this but i would certainly pick up one of my ARs if i did.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:03 pm

preventec47 wrote:I bought 3000 rounds of 7.62 x 54 ammo real cheap and got a cheap 91/30 to shoot them but I would like a semi auto to shoot them. I have heard there are some miilitary semi autos that shoot them Anyone know what they are?

Yeah, these Romanian PSLs are a lot of fun and eat 7.62x54r all day:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277774006

Alternately, you could get an SVT-40:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277978811

There's always a Dragunov if you're feeling really sporty, but I'm not sure this fits with your "I've got cheap ammo I need to burn off" agenda:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277217511

Lastly, the VEPR rifles from Saiga's competition in Russia are very nice:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277764395

Have fun!

Oly

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:01 pm

I had an opportunity to fire a Dragunov variant after receiving a 30 second instruction from a Russian speaking sniper. While it may not be as accurate as our M24's, with the number of them fielded by the average infantry platoon it's a scary proposition at best.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:09 pm

I'm just a fan of the Garand action, and I prefer wood so my choice has been, and will continue to be a stainless steel Ruger Mini-14.
The newer generation with heavier barrel and increased accuracy has special appeal though I never really had a problem with my 80s vintage model.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:22 pm

ADJUSTABLE HARMONIC DAMPENER for tuning minute-of-angle accuracy.

I'm sorry guys, I can't help myself.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:40 pm

olyinaz wrote:
preventec47 wrote:I bought 3000 rounds of 7.62 x 54 ammo real cheap and got a cheap 91/30 to shoot them but I would like a semi auto to shoot them. I have heard there are some miilitary semi autos that shoot them Anyone know what they are?
Yeah, these Romanian PSLs are a lot of fun and eat 7.62x54r all day:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277774006

Alternately, you could get an SVT-40:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277978811

There's always a Dragunov if you're feeling really sporty, but I'm not sure this fits with your "I've got cheap ammo I need to burn off" agenda:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277217511

Lastly, the VEPR rifles from Saiga's competition in Russia are very nice:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277764395

Have fun!

Oly

If you can get that PSL for less than $1K you will be doing very well....

I wouldn't mind having one.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:06 pm

My Daewoo puts the sights right on top of the reciever.
My CAR is a flattop.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:41 pm

preventec47 wrote:The high sight line even screws with the long distance trajectories etc. Thats ok if you have done your homework with the proper programs and remembered to enter in correct sight line height.

I thought that the higher sight line served to increase the point blank range, because the 'downward tilt' of the line of sight remains closer to the bullet's actual path as it arcs downward after exiting the muzzle. If the first intersection of the bullet and line of sight is at 100 yards, since the path is nearly straight, you could figure if the scope axis is 4" above the bore, you'd be hitting 3" low at 25 yards, 2" low at 50, and 1" low at 75. If you need more precision than that, of couse you're screwed, but if you think it's 50 yards away and it's really 75, you're only going to miss by one inch - hardly a big difference for shooting most game.

I definitely DO like the Mini-14's looks and feel better than the big-flatty AR-15 guns, BUT if I want to be sure I can hit a soda-can at 100 yards on the first shot, I'd want an AR-15 instead of a Mini-14.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:49 pm

sore shoulder wrote:

ADJUSTABLE HARMONIC DAMPENER for tuning minute-of-angle accuracy.

I'm sorry guys, I can't help myself.

(ya,that is kinda strange)

Guess we all like different stuff and that is whats so neat.
My Ruger Ranch (don't get me wrong, it's a tough little gun.(it honestly compared to the M1/M1A/Colt HBAR's/ I have is not nearly as accurate(open sights 100yds)not even close.Even my Kel-Tec SU16's out shoot it.

But, it is close to my SKS's

In fact at least in these parts(all your top gun guys)have switched to shooting the black guns(AR's)
Actually it started right about 1993 on up.(speaking generally on 100yd and 200yd matches here).
If the Ruger Mini works for what you like/and does the job---------for you then its a keeper and that is cool in my book.

Good luck with whatever you shoot and enjoy having a nice weapon to use.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:00 pm

AJMD429 wrote:I definitely DO like the Mini-14's looks and feel better than the big-flatty AR-15 guns, BUT if I want to be sure I can hit a soda-can at 100 yards on the first shot, I'd want an AR-15 instead of a Mini-14.

That's why I've never really understood the fascination with shooting tiny groups with a combat rifle.

The First Round is the one that matters - after that, it's suppressive fire.

That's why when I take Erma out my goal is 20 clangs with 20 pulls of the trigger from field positions at random transitions on 12" gongs set from 50-300m.

Now, for a Prarie dog gun, it's a little different, but for a combat rifle/carbine? One round (ok, 2 from a .223...

), the first one per target, should be your main concern.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:03 pm

Say what you will about the ARs. You can't get by the fact that they are extremely accurate platforms, even as carbines and aimed fire still does count for something, even in the hands of the military.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:46 am

Here is kinda an interesting point guys with the differences of expected use between the M16(AR15) and the M14(M1A)

First let me say an unfair stigma has been placed on the M16 especially since its field use in Vietnam.
They said"unreliable"-----but was NOT THE GUNS FAULT
The Military turned its head delaying changing the main issue causing the reliability issues associated with the M16
Use of incorrect cartridge powder(yep,the powder)Ball Powder---The Ball powder created a lot of powder ash(this ash also got into the weapons chamber)and the majority of action cycle failures were from ash build up within the chamber/Gas cylinder)
Once they smartened up (but still forgot to issue cleaning kits

)Colt Engineers were working on coming up with what they conceived as a solution---a recoil buffering device(internal plurality of masses)which changed the actions cycle rate and finally allowed the use of ball powder.
The AR15/M16 was originally designed with use of IMR powder(IMR powder has a different pressure curve than ball powder)
Once they did that (buffering device)------------WHAM---the M16 is RELIABLE.
And they found this was even more dramatic in the short barreled M16's

Bottom line----Honestly,the AR15/M16 was designed for jungle fighting.In that arena when the reliability issues were solved---it was considered the ultimate killer.(100yds or less) So much so the naming of it(the Black Gun)was so called as when the VC saw a soldier with one they thought

because of how that cartridge tore the person to shreds at impact.

Now with the advances of powder the .223/5.56 has upped the ante.
This range(ultimate killing range)if so desired can be extended out to 150yds etc.
By that I mean when the bullet hits intended target it tumbles all over and throughout wrecking everything in between like Pack Man getting his fill.

Here is the kicker guys(these black guns)handle the higher velocity ammo.
Example-----my Colts shoot Hornady ammo(3400fps)all day long.

The M1/M14 and I believe the Ruger Mini are not built for the hotter ammo.

They also have no advantage in reliability in very adverse conditions.
Only the AK47 has shown some advantage but carrying a bulkier/much less accurate/less effective cartridge the trade off I feel goes to the M16

Most of us(I really doubt)will need over 150yd combat conditions so with that in mind at least in my own humble opinion----
Advantage AR15 )also I am not saying a .223/5.56 will not kill beyond 150yds,just not with Pack Man effect.

However if I have the need for Long distance stuff (my NM M1A)or my SA M1 aint far away either???????
JMHO

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:17 am

madman4570 wrote: By that I mean when the bullet hits intended target it tumbles all over and throughout wrecking everything in between like Pack Man getting his fill.

I've never seen any proof of that rumor, never even read it in any credible article or book on the subject. All the ballistics tests I've seen of the no longer in use M193 55gr have it yawing sideways, breaking apart at the cannelure causing multiple small secondary wound cavities in addition to the primary wound cavity, then continuing to rotate till the base is forward. The current ball M855 does not fragment as easily and the distance at which it will still fragment is significantly less than the M193, it mostly pokes holes. The rumors of tumbling bullets come from the very first AR15 rifles issued, which had a 1/14 twist and would not stabilize the bullet, which caused it to keyhole the target past 50 yrds. Also your 150 yrd effective range is way off.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:02 pm

Speaking directly from translations of NVA dispatches in which the VC feared this weapon because of what the bullets effect had on those taking hits?????????
Could they have been possibly lying to each other???????? I suppose!

Now, with what we are talking about here is (in the civilian realm )what weapon would you buy???
Personally for human targets at above specified distances (I would prefer Nosler ballistic tipped ammo at a velocity of 3300fps and above)
Having shot a 68lb coyote (he is now head mounted)looks like a frigin wolf(skinned it and examined what that does to a big piece of flesh)shot
at a distance of 125yds can tell you anyone taking any reasonable hit(forget it)

Also some of the articles recalling were ones such as "America's Rifle"-------(The AR15: From Vietnam to the fields and Woods of America) etc. Bob Campbell
Also recall on a special (the Vietnam era)History channel the top commanding heads talking about what that round did.

Never seen its effect personally,so you are right-----------------------it is hear say!

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:24 pm

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:I'm just a fan of the Garand action, and I prefer wood so my choice has been, and will continue to be a stainless steel Ruger Mini-14.
The newer generation with heavier barrel and increased accuracy has special appeal though I never really had a problem with my 80s vintage model.

Wow Ji, you found an ultra-rare left handed version! Cool!!

Oly

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:44 pm

madman4570 wrote:Now with the advances of powder the .223/5.56 has upped the ante.
This range(ultimate killing range)if so desired can be extended out to 150yds etc.
By that I mean when the bullet hits intended target it tumbles all over and throughout wrecking everything in between like Pack Man getting his fill.

Here is the kicker guys(these black guns)handle the higher velocity ammo.
Example-----my Colts shoot Hornady ammo(3400fps)all day long.

The M1/M14 and I believe the Ruger Mini are not built for the hotter ammo.

They also have no advantage in reliability in very adverse conditions.

Only the AK-47 has shown some advantage but carrying a bulkier/much less accurate/less effective cartridge the trade off I feel goes to the M16.

Isn't it interesting that the Soviets went to 5.45x39 years ago? Those little, long, unstable darts reportedly do serious damage in soft tissue. As much as I like the AK-47, I like the AK-74 even more!

The Polish Tantal is a heckuva bargain in my veiw:

Best,
Oly

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:21 pm

jeepnik wrote:
awp101 wrote:
Pitchy wrote:Grats Mike, pics?

rjohns94 wrote:Pitchy, I will get them posted. Took some but have to get them transferred
7 minutes is enough time. Where are the pics?
Living proof that folks these day's only want to wait 250 nano seconds for the web to produce results.

In the age of the internet, even instant gratification takes too long...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:22 pm

madman4570 wrote:Speaking directly from translations of NVA dispatches in which the VC feared this weapon because of what the bullets effect had on those taking hits?????????
Could they have been possibly lying to each other???????? I suppose!

Now, with what we are talking about here is (in the civilian realm )what weapon would you buy???
Personally for human targets at above specified distances (I would prefer Nosler ballistic tipped ammo at a velocity of 3300fps and above)
Having shot a 68lb coyote (he is now head mounted)looks like a frigin wolf(skinned it and examined what that does to a big piece of flesh)shot
at a distance of 125yds can tell you anyone taking any reasonable hit(forget it)

Also some of the articles recalling were ones such as "America's Rifle"-------(The AR15: From Vietnam to the fields and Woods of America) etc. Bob Campbell
Also recall on a special (the Vietnam era)History channel the top commanding heads talking about what that round did.

Never seen its effect personally,so you are right-----------------------it is hear say!

No question that with the right projectile the 5.56 can do some serious damage. I can't speak to those reports, but I do know the old M193 did have a reputation for fragmenting and leaving some serious wounds, it didn't need to tumble around the body to do that. At close range it would practically explode. I have nothing against the rifle at all, read through my previous posts, I'm a huge fan, particularly since one of my jobs involves carrying one. My current favorite bullets and what I consider "magic" for the 5.56 are the 75-77gr HP match bullets.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_ ... /Test5.htm

Also, I have personally killed over 50 feral dogs with my HBAR after a group of them chased my daughter up on the porch 15 years ago. We had several large feral packs at that time running loose up here. I spent 3 weeks living out of my truck chasing them down and only came home for food and ammo. I can tell you that a 55gr soft point will make hamburger out of 60+ pound dogs and drop them in their tracks even out to 300yrds.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:52 am

Some good stuff sore shoulder---Thanks!
Heck,any carbine that is reliable/pretty accurate/and will seal the deal----is cool
Just a matter of what one wants/likes
When it comes down to it-------would surely take any of em if needed or didn't have one(and be darn glad having it)

God Bless

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:09 am

[quote="olyinaz"]
Yeah, these Romanian PSLs are a lot of fun and eat 7.62x54r all day:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277774006

Alternately, you could get an SVT-40:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277978811

There's always a Dragunov if you're feeling [i]really[/i] sporty, but I'm not sure this fits with your "I've got cheap ammo I need to burn off" agenda:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277217511

Lastly, the VEPR rifles from Saiga's competition in Russia are very nice:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277764395

Have fun!

Oly[/quote]

Thanks for the education on the 7.62x54 rifles. Alas
even if I had the money I could not spend that much money
on rifles that looked so crude with absolutely no access
to factory repair support etc. If I was to buy one and it
didnt shoot, I doubt there would be very much I could do
with it. I guess it is going to take me a long time to shoot
my 3000 rounds of surplus ammo out of the 91/30

Pretty amazing really ... my ammo about the same price as
22 magnum rimfire.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:48 am

That's the catch22 of the 54R.

I have over 1600 rounds of it (4 spam cans). At less than $90/440rnds it's the single best value in High Power cartridges on the market.

Too bad so few guns take the stuff.

But engineering a magazine for that rimmed tapered bottleneck is the killer. That's why you won't find mags above 10 rounds for the guns that do exist and probably the biggest reason the ComBlocs got away from it/have so much surplus.

At least when the US dropped the '03 the ammo still worked in the Garand and the BAR (and, and, and...)

If only we could convince our imperial masters here & in Russia to release the Russian backstock of 1895s

...

But for "factory support", at least with the PSLs it's not necessary. That's why they exist. They are basically AKs and so rarely need anything but a bit of bailing wire & duct tape to fix.

The veper's do look like a good substitute though, even with 5 rd mags.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:51 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: That's why you won't find mags above 10 rounds for the guns that do exist and probably the biggest reason the ComBlocs got away from it/have so much surplus.

Not sure where you got that. They still use it for their squad based PKM machine gun and Dragunov squad marksman rifles. The PKM is still in use by all front line Russian infantry and several east European and Asian countries. I had a chance to fire them last summer and the overwhelming consensus by everyone who fired them is it's the best machine gun ever made. Lightweight, powerful, accurate and very very reliable.

The 54R is not going anywhere.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:15 pm

Perhaps not, but as the PKM is belt fed and the Druganov is really, really proprietary (unlike the basic AK) the overall ammo consumption is not sufficient to reduce surplus supply.

Note that Worldwide Surplus .30-06 is being rapidly depleted, but 54R is not. It's simply a matter of how many guns in use are chambered for the cartridge.

Maybe if the Eastern Bloc gets into a heavy shooting war with lots of PKM/SVD action the supply would wane, but that's a big if.

My current question is...

Would a Bakail 28ga O/U be a good frame for a 54R O/U reline?...

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:23 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Perhaps not, but as the PKM is belt fed and the Druganov is really, really proprietary (unlike the basic AK) the overall ammo consumption is not sufficient to reduce surplus supply.

Note that Worldwide Surplus .30-06 is being rapidly depleted, but 54R is not. It's simply a matter of how many guns in use are chambered for the cartridge.

Maybe if the Eastern Bloc gets into a heavy shooting war with lots of PKM/SVD action the supply would wane, but that's a big if.

My current question is...

Would a Bakail 28ga O/U be a good frame for a 54R O/U reline?...

hmm, baikal makes over and under rifles, shotguns, combo guns of various sorts ....what about modifying one of those

30/06 O?U or maybe a cool combo wwould be the 12 ga. the 308 or 30/06 rifle , if that could be rechambered??

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:35 pm

They have massive surplus/stockpiles precisely because it's their primary machine gun round, just like the 7.62 NATO is ours. My point was they did not "go away" from the 54R, anymore than we are going away from 7.62 NATO.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:44 pm

hfcable wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Perhaps not, but as the PKM is belt fed and the Druganov is really, really proprietary (unlike the basic AK) the overall ammo consumption is not sufficient to reduce surplus supply.

Note that Worldwide Surplus .30-06 is being rapidly depleted, but 54R is not. It's simply a matter of how many guns in use are chambered for the cartridge.

Maybe if the Eastern Bloc gets into a heavy shooting war with lots of PKM/SVD action the supply would wane, but that's a big if.

My current question is...

Would a Bakail 28ga O/U be a good frame for a 54R O/U reline?...

hmm, baikal makes over and under rifles, shotguns, combo guns of various sorts ....what about modifying one of those

30/06 O?U or maybe a cool combo wwould be the 12 ga. the 308 or 30/06 rifle , if that could be rechambered??

Hmmm... Not seeing it available in the US, but Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html

If it's got good ejectors, It could be as fast or faster to shoot than the 91/30...

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:35 pm

[quote="Old Ironsights"]
Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
.[/quote]

If that Bakail mod MP-94 is sold in the USA ... how much
does it cost ? I wouldnt mind that gun at all if it was pretty
easy to mount a scope on it.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:41 pm

preventec47 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
.
If that Bakail mod MP-94 is sold in the USA ... how much
does it cost ? I wouldnt mind that gun at all if it was pretty
easy to mount a scope on it.

I'm not sure it is.

I think Remington is the current sole importer and they don't list it. OTOH, I did just send a nice message in Russian to ImzCorp sales and asked if there was another licensed Importer that could get them...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:41 pm

preventec47 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
.
If that Bakail mod MP-94 is sold in the USA ... how much
does it cost ? I wouldnt mind that gun at all if it was pretty
easy to mount a scope on it.

I'm not sure it is.

I think Remington is the current sole importer and they don't list it. OTOH, I did just send a nice message in Russian to ImzCorp sales and asked if there was another licensed Importer that could get them...

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:44 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
preventec47 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
.
If that Bakail mod MP-94 is sold in the USA ... how much
does it cost ? I wouldnt mind that gun at all if it was pretty
easy to mount a scope on it.
I'm not sure it is.

I think Remington is the current sole importer and they don't list it. OTOH, I did just send a nice message in Russian to ImzCorp sales and asked if there was another licensed Importer that could get them...

Remington no longer imports them and only did for a short time. EAA is one current importer of the 94 and I suppose it's possible others do as well, but I've not seen any in 7.62x54r, only .308 and other chamberings.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =277859929

http://www.eaacorp.com/images/300dpi/MP ... fireHR.jpg

Oly

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Hobie wrote:I believe that everybody should have an AR type rifle in 5.56. Exactly what you have that takes M16 magazines in 5.56 is a matter of personal opinion and not really important. However, I think it is important that you get one now.

I concur

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:24 pm

Paladin wrote:
Hobie wrote:I believe that everybody should have an AR type rifle in 5.56. Exactly what you have that takes M16 magazines in 5.56 is a matter of personal opinion and not really important. However, I think it is important that you get one now.
I concur

and one in 308 is a good idea too.......have had several 308s including hk 91A3, hk 770, hk SL-7, and M1A type [ poly tech ] ....i now have a DPMS ap4 308 carbine and it handles better and easily will outshoot any of those, at least for me.

i just regard it as an essential tool, like my M4 style 223 carbine.
and my electric drill, hand saw, air compressor and a few other essentials!

and [ as is likely ] if i never use the 223 or 308 for any thing but recreation that will be even better!

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:17 am

[quote="Old Ironsights"][quote="Old Ironsights"]
Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
.[/quote]

I see on gunbroker that EAA does not provide warranty service in any way and maintain all warranty work be handled directly with the manufacturer. Hey, I dont need em then. Can I buy directly from the mfgr? Actually on the EAA site, they have both the Zastava PAP and the Saiga rifles that should be available in 7.62x54 but are not listed. Also the EAA single shot break action rifle should be available in 7.62x54. Would you mind sending message in Russian to see if any of those could be bought direct and bypassing EAA if they provide no service or carry the caliber that I want.
Thanks, Scott in Atlanta.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:28 am

preventec47 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: Bakail does make a 12ga/7.62x54R O/U (or double rifle) combo in their Model MP-94... http://imzcorp.com/en/company/69.html
PS since this forum does not support private messages, you can email me direct at

Sure it does. I just sent you one.

Camp Cook · Post by **Camp Cook** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:33 am

For me there is only one semi-auto that does anything for me my OD green Robinson Arms XCR-L with complete uppers in 223 & 6.8SPC.

6.8SPC

223

I just wish RA made a conversion kit in 458 SOCOM would make this rifle a do anything hunting combo here in BC, Canada.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:42 am

wow! that is one nice setup! i like the color, especially cause now i am also

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:59 am

Great set up.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:47 pm

Not an EBR or 'semiauto carbine', but I noticed the double-rifle in .45-70 .......

http://imzcorp.com/en/company/99.html

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:09 pm

I have several doubles, and have owned two in 45-70. The one you mention can't shoot any hot loads. Remington green box is just about all it can take. It's regulation system is screw type regulation in the end of the barrel. Not a true regulation and easy to mess up if you Futz with it. I finally went with the 470NE as my preferred side by side.