OT--way off but my niece and gangrene problem

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:52 pm

I hesitated to be this far off topic but it's so important to me and family members.

My neice was admitted to the hospital on Feb. 12 with pneumonia. For several days it was 50/50 whether she'd survive. Tube down her throat for oxygen, dialysis machine due to her kidneys shutting down and other "attachments."

A few days ago they found, due to lack of oxygen, she had gangrene in her feet. Expect to have to remove all her right toes and half of her left foot.

So gruesome. She's 36 years old with a 9 month old boy. Her first child.

Of course when something so terrible happens you wonder if the hospital or doctors are fully or partially responsible and negligent. If they have done what they should then no problem but you understand why we must know as best we can.

Anyone here experienced a health problem like this?

She has improved considerably and we are very grateful to the doctors and hospital. What's coming-up is a real bummer.

Don McCullough

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:05 pm

getitdone, I'm no help but need to say sorry to hear this news and wish your neice our best wishes. Did she get a bad winter chill or something?
Best wishes, Nath.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:08 pm

I hope your niece continues to improve, sounds like a real raw deal.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:09 pm

offering my prayers

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:15 pm

I really hope the best for your niece.

She had to have a really bad case of pneumonia before entering the hospital OR they did not give her the proper treatment.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:17 pm

The amount of medical mistake that cause harm are many multipal times more than the people being hurt by guns, even counting gang on gang shootings. I will hold a good thought for the Lady.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:23 pm

That's weird (and sad). MRSA?

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:29 pm

Prayers sent.

MikeS. · Post by **MikeS.** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:31 pm

getitdone1, very sorry to hear about your niece.

Back in June I came very close to losing my wife of 30 years to pneumonia. She saw our Dr on June 4th and was prescribed a strong oral anti-biotic. On June 9th I had her into the ER. Her left lung had been compressed to where there was 2% of volume left. She spent 15 days in the hospital after 5 hours of surgery. She is still on O2.

If your niece has contracted a strep infection pneumonia it is very serious and easily becomes fatal. You might feel lucky that she survived.

Good luck.

spurgon · Post by **spurgon** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:36 pm

Hypebaric treatment in a chamber can be of help in cases of gangrene and low oxygen levels. Can improve chances of not loosing any more appendages. Sometimes insurance is reluctant to pay but I think gangrene is covered in most cases.
sputgon

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:44 pm

Don,
My prayers and thoughts are with you, your family and niece.

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:45 pm

A niece can easily be the same as a daughter. Sorry to hear about this. Obviousely this woman has a great uncle who cares a lot, good for her on that, prayers sent.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:08 pm

Man, how tough is this. Prayers Sent, God Bless.Jim.

Rod WMG · Post by **Rod WMG** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:28 pm

A truly sad situation.
\
My heart and prayers go out to an for her.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:19 pm

Prayers for your niece and all of your people. That's a rough deal.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:35 pm

Prayers sent friend. God answers KNEE -mail.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:58 pm

Our thoughts are with all of you!!!!!

1886 · Post by **1886** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:17 pm

Sir, Very sorry about your niece but glad to hear things are improving. Continued prayers and well wishes for you and yours. 1886.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:53 pm

Do you mean "lack of oxygen" because her lungs couldn't take it in, or because
of lack of attention/treatment in paying attention to how much they were
giving her(oxygen)?

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:15 pm

There sure ain't no need to apologize when prayer is needed,prayers will be said for her and the family.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:42 pm

Sorry to hear this.

We see pneumonia cases all the time, and I will say this on the hospital's behalf: When lungs get THAT infected, even 100% O2 won't give someone enough.

Sometimes though, we see pneumonia pts on a nasal cannula at 3Lpm.

Sounds like it was pretty bad to have to have her tubed though. I hope her condition continues to improve.

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:50 pm

My prayers go out to you all!!!!! God bless you and protect your entire family, especially your neice. I am so sorry to hear about this!! Art

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:46 pm

Prayers sent!

Shawn

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:52 pm

I'm sorry to hear that. Prayers up...

spurgon · Post by **spurgon** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:41 am

Jeeps
Hyperbaric treatment concentrates oxygen in the blood strem and promotes healing of problematic wounds.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:15 am

Jeeps wrote:Do you mean "lack of oxygen" because her lungs couldn't take it in, or because
of lack of attention/treatment in paying attention to how much they were
giving her(oxygen)?

Jeeps,

Soon after my neice arrived at hospital with pneumonia one of her lungs collapsed. They then put oxygen tube down her windpipe and it stayed there for maybe 10 days. (100% oxygen) I think it was during this time that her feet and toes were starved for oxygen. She's been breathing on her own now for about 5 days. She had a seizure yesterday but now O.K. Perhaps due to too much stress and dread of up-coming amputation.

It just seems that they should have been on the lookout for oxygen starved body parts and thus prevented the gangrene and amputation. Surely they knew of the possiblilty of insufficient oxygen to body extremities. Maybe there was no solution to this but seems like there should have been.

I believe my neice's mother told me the body can take the oxygen to where it's needed most and thus starve the extremities. True? I'm not sure there was any way to prevent the gangrene.

This coming Monday they are going to take a close look and determine the extent of amputation. They think all of right toes and 1/2 of left foot at this time. It'll really be bad if they find they have to remove significantly more. I'm surprised they've left the gangrene tissue intact as long as they have. My understanding is it just keeps spreading if not soon removed. And, you gotta be sure to remove all of it.

My neice never seen the doctor before her husband found her on bedroom floor attempting to breathe better there. I find it hard to understand her not seeing doctor before it got so bad. She had a "cold" for several days before calling 911. My brother tells me pneumonia can come-on pretty fast--so I don't know if neice and husband were negligent or not. She's only 36 yrs old and has been strong and active. Sadly, she was a fast runner--but no more.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR RESPONSES.

Don McCullough

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:13 am

Prayers said for all of your family.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:48 pm

Sorry for the prying question Getitdone. I just remember being very young
on the farm when my uncle Johnny got gangrene and my Aunt (retired registered
nurse) was wild at the hospital and doctors. I didn't understand at the time.

If there is anyway to check the standard operating procedures for this kind
of thing at the hospital, and have a third party check them against her charts.

For your niece, try not to mention negative things during her treatment.

A flower and a hand being held by a family member goes along way to lift
spirits.

God bless you and yours, prayers have been sent.

45-70marlin · Post by **45-70marlin** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:24 pm

prayers sent, getitdone. I had double pneumonia at age 34 , it went from a cold to pneumonia in less than 24hours. you can tell most of the time you got it because you or someone who puts a ear to your back can hear the fluid gurgling in your lungs when you take a deep breath. I was in the hospital for 11 days that trip.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:18 pm

getitdone1 wrote:I hesitated to be this far off topic but it's so important to me and family members.

My neice was admitted to the hospital on Feb. 12 with pneumonia. For several days it was 50/50 whether she'd survive. Tube down her throat for oxygen, dialysis machine due to her kidneys shutting down and other "attachments."

A few days ago they found, due to lack of oxygen, she had gangrene in her feet. Expect to have to remove all her right toes and half of her left foot.

So gruesome. She's 36 years old with a 9 month old boy. Her first child.

Of course when something so terrible happens you wonder if the hospital or doctors are fully or partially responsible and negligent. If they have done what they should then no problem but you understand why we must know as best we can.

Anyone here experienced a health problem like this?

She has improved considerably and we are very grateful to the doctors and hospital. What's coming-up is a real bummer.

Don McCullough

Don;
I can assure you that my prayers include your niece.
I can understand this feeling:
"Of course when something so terrible happens you wonder
if the hospital or doctors are fully or partially responsible and
negligent. If they have done what they should then no problem
but you understand why we must know as best we can."
It is meant only as a positive statement when I say that your best focus of all energies at this time is the welfare of your niece. You will have more than ample time to dwell on what went wrong, by whom, and when after she is well on the way for healing. I only say this because, as I understand your post, you are confident she is getting proper treatment now; therefore there is no reason to consider moving her to another facility.
Again, my prayers are with you and I will also lift her and your family in tomorrow's Worship Service prayers.
Grace and Peace.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:47 pm

Don,
Prayers are still on their way but I wanted to give you some further information.

Consider this, Jim Henson the creator of the Muppets got pneumonia and died in less than 24 hours. Even with all our modern medicine a lot of times there just nothing that can be done.
I talked to my wife who is an RN with 31 years experience. From her experience she told me that probably what happened was the infection was so strong by the time she got medical help that the body was actually throwing little blood clots that blocked the flow of blood to the feet. If there's anything you like to know about something they're doing feel free to email me and I'll find out what I can for you.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:04 pm

The recent pneumonias going around (including influenza, some other influenza-like viruses, and both streptococcal and non-strep bacterial pneumonias) have been unusually severe this year. Many patients are hit hard and fast with it, and several deaths have occurred, despite what seems to be very appropriate care.

The toxins made by an infection can cause vascular problems (and gangrene) even if 'oxygen' is ok, so sometimes there's not much you can do.

Why this year is bad? Anyone's guess; I've already heard several physicians (Democrats of course) blame 'global warming' or now they say 'climate change' of all things. That's a crock, obviously.

If there is any human factor to blame, other than our high population density, it is our awful tax rates that make both adults in most households work outside the home (more exposure to infection), our public schools which make it prohibitive to keep a sick child home from school (and again the work/tax situation here as well because parents can't be off to be with the kids).

Our overly-antibiotic-using, and over-vaccinating, mindset may also be a problem, is my gut feeling, but that certainly isn't a consensus among most physicians. The problem with antibiotic usage is it hasn't been done scientifically (in which case you either don't use ANY, or you use two at once so you don't get resistance) but rather we use 'weak' ones first (and over-use them) at too low of a dose (encouraging resistance to develop) then when that fails, we use stronger ones, again singly, which merely will hasten resistance to those as well. Those things probably weren't factors in your family member's illness, but I see down the road we will have big problems due to that stupidity.

Generally, our health care system is becoming socialized, so it WILL be more expensive, and less efficient, but your relative probably had the best care reasonably attainable. I do worry about the future generations though.

As an aside - we're about two years away from EVERYONE's medical records being on the internet - most insurances will refuse to pay a physician who refuses to post the patient's medical record on the internet, because the insurer (and the government) wants to be able to browse the record 24/7 just to see if there's anything their computers can latch onto to raise your rates or deny coverage of something. Most patients are totally oblivious to this, but I'd say 80% of the physicians I deal with (nearly all the specialists and 75% of the family physicians) ALREADY post their entire patient's records on the internet, and ALL the hospitals and laboratories and X-ray facilities have for some time.

Those who want privacy, or quality, are going to find you have to go outside the system, and pay cash, just like in other countries.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:47 am

On the list . . .

Noah

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:48 am

As an aside - we're about two years away from EVERYONE's medical records being on the internet - most insurances will refuse to pay a physician who refuses to post the patient's medical record on the internet, because the insurer (and the government) wants to be able to browse the record 24/7 just to see if there's anything their computers can latch onto to raise your rates or deny coverage of something. Most patients are totally oblivious to this, but I'd say 80% of the physicians I deal with (nearly all the specialists and 75% of the family physicians) ALREADY post their entire patient's records on the internet, and ALL the hospitals and laboratories and X-ray facilities have for some time.

Those who want privacy, or quality, are going to find you have to go outside the system, and pay cash, just like in other countries.[/quote]

AJMD429,

How do I find if my niece's medical records are on the internet and how do I access them if they are? She's in the Methodist (Clarian) hospital in Indianapolis, IN--the largest hospital in the state. Yesterday I registered at their web site.

Don McCullough

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:33 am

getitdone1 wrote: How do I find if my niece's medical records are on the internet and how do I access them if they are? She's in the Methodist (Clarian) hospital in Indianapolis, IN--the largest hospital in the state. Yesterday I registered at their web site.
Don McCullough

They're only 'on the internet' for the insurance companies, and for the government 'regulators' who monitor them. Even the doctors who are participating in a given case can't always access the record, or only parts of it. THAT is why the 'HIPPA' act was such a fraud - it alleged to help doctors have access to coordinate care, but was really focused on the insurance and government.

Of course, if you find some teenage droopy-drawers who lives inside computers, they probably know how to get any information, no matter how 'secure' it is.

Basically, to get the best outcome in medicine isn't a whole lot different than in any other area, from car repair to fighting a war - find whoever seems most on the ball and try to get time to go over things with them and make the best plans for treatment; that entails reviewing what has gone on (and gone wrong) so far, and what might have happened to make it so severe, etc. Looking back at progress or failure is important and helps one plan the next move, and we do it all the time, since each 'case' is a complex battle with new sets of variables and unknowns; just like a general modifies battle plans as status reports come in - and they aren't always going to be 'good' ones.

IF the clinician's perception is that rather than focusing on the REAL enemy, which is the disease, and/or her circulatory status, you're more interested in blaming THEM for everything, they will get defensive and write you off as some loser who is more interested in finding reasons to sue them than helping them to help the patient. I've seen cases where a family came across that way and the patient (who wasn't that way at all) didn't get followup care they needed because none of the doctors wanted to go near them, since the focus had drifted away from doing what's best for the patient, and become a blame-game. Sometimes it is just a family trying to puzzle their way through things and see if they can better understand what is going on, and even help (families and patients can have very helpful insight, even without medical training), but you have to realize that the eagerness of any clinicians to discuss the case with you depends on whether or not they feel you are interested in moving forward, learning from whatever has gone on so far, or just angry that everything didn't come out well and looking for someone to blame it on.

Sometimes bad outcomes happen, regardless of what you do as a clinician, and one of the things we have to deal with is always being aware of the seven different things we COULD have done differently, and would they have resulted in a better outcome or not. We don't need anyone to throw that in our face to teach us a lesson - it is an ongoing process from the first patient you treat in residency, and we constantly learn from each case, and from each epidemic; this particular set of germs has been horrific, and I don't think anyone could have expected some of the severity and complications we've seen.

Hopefully if she doesn't have some underlying predisposition with her circulation (and there are many conditions patients are unaware they have until something like this happens) that is a factor, she'll do well from here on out.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:12 pm

AJMD429,

I think your comments are on the money. Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my niece's health problems.

Don McCullough

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:47 pm

Best of luck to you and yours.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:37 pm

getitdone1 wrote:AJMD429,
I think your comments are on the money. Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my niece's health problems.
Don McCullough

Human life, and health, is precious, and I wish the best for her. The love of a good family is a bigger factor in 'getting better' than many realize, so she's got a head start.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:34 am

Received some bad news. This morning they have determined that my neice will have to have about half of her left leg removed. Hopefully we have heard the worst of what will happen. There's also a significant psychological element involved here. Nothing to do but take things a step at a time.

Don McCullough

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:35 am

Sorry I'm late but prayers going up!!! Also, thank you for the additional input for all here AJMD429. Much good info you've passed on to us.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:50 pm

prayers sent

Retro · Post by **Retro** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:41 pm

A hundred years ago, she would probably have been dead already.

We pride ourselves on our medical prowess, but actually, we know squat.

I'm glad she's OK. That's the important part. Medical science, unfortunately, isn't a science.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:40 pm

Retro,

Kind of along the lines you're talking about:

Few days ago I go to nearby medical center to see why I'm not getting over the flu. At that time I'd had it for about 2 weeks. A rather cocky physician's assistant makes an entrance and before you know it he's stethoscoped me, had chest x-rayed and blood sampled.

Go to the pharmacy to pick-up the medicine and find what he prescribed for me costs 221 dollars for 10 pills. Antibiotics. Lady working at pharmacy asks me if I want them due to their high price. A quick NO was forthcoming. She also asked me if they'd give me a sputum test to determine which germ was causing my problems. I said no. Then it dawned on me: here this guy was prescribing antibiotics for me that cost a bunch and really didn't even know if he was addressing the proper germ.

Today, about 5 days later I'm really feeling better. I am OVER the hump.

Moral of the story: Beware of incompetents in the medical profession. ALWAYS do your own thinking and if matter is of much importance do not hesitate to get a second opinion !

Don McCullough

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:58 am

getitdone1 wrote: Go to the pharmacy to pick-up the medicine and find what he prescribed for me costs 221 dollars for 10 pills. Antibiotics. Don McCullough

Crikeys! Do you remember the name of the antibiotic?
FYI for cash payers, you can use the Costco pharmacy even if you're not a Costco member. Lowest prices (on average) in town.

Quinn

OT--way off but my niece and gangrene problem

OT--way off but my niece and gangrene problem

niece

Re: OT--way off but my niece and gangrene problem