So I asked; is there any way of seeing the results of too mu

[hightime]

The answer seemed to be no, when loading within guide book peramiters. I wish you could. Then the statement to start low and ease your way up, would be more understandable. for instance if my Lyman book says 7.2 gr. Unique for a low and I start there and work my way up but don't go over the recomended 9 gr. Them what am I looking for? Yes, I check groupings, but I have been head scratching. I could have just as well started at the high end and worked my way down, if there's nothing to read on the case.
I have heard of flatened primers, but I guess that is in a stronger action. How about other actions. Is there case signs to read?
Before some of you say something like I'm being unsafe, I'm not loading over guide recomenations. I'm trying to be safer than someone who doesn't ask questions.

Owen

[Old Savage]

If you stay within the recommended loading range for 1873 actions you are not going to see any of the pressure signs like flattened primers, expanded primer pockets, brass that is expanded beyond the acceptable limits (which in a generous 45 Colt chamber could also be a little deceiving) because the brass and the primers will take more pressure in a proper chamber than the gun is designed to take. So yes, that applies to stronger guns like the 92.

You have already heard some of the opinions on the stronger 73 actions due to better steels etc. When anyone suggests something in loading that is dangerous or could be and they are not aware of it they will likely begin to encounter sterner warnings from those concerned about the safety of the reloader.

Mainly you will hear safety admonitions here if you begin to wander unknowingly into traffic. Let SAAMI hold your hand and you will likely not have any problems in that respect.

[harry]

Owen if you stay within the published guidelines you SHOULD not see any pressure signs, and flat primers are not an indication of high pressure, I have brass that has been reloaded 15 or more times and I get flat primers from loose primer pockets. If you are going to try and push the limits on your gun and cartridge I would advise buying pressure trace equipment. I have this system and it works very well http://shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm. Then you can tell us just how much pressure your loads were at when you show us the pictures.
Harry

[AJMD429]

I've always thought that sounded kind of funny/useless, too, but I think ONE way to do it is not so much to watch for excess pressure signs (not that you shouldn't be), but in terms of going up the 'loading manual' scale from "Minimum" to "Maximum", I look for what load is most accurate, or what load has most consistent velocity. That isn't really ruling out crossing some pressure limit prematurely, but at least it gives me something to look for while I'm "carefully increasing" the charges (yes, while staying within loading-manual parameters).

[mikld]

My reason for starting low and working up is accuracy. Some loads will just shoot better in a given gun, so the whole idea is to find that combination of components that will acheive that for me. For safety's sake, we start low, and increase powder to find that "sweet spot" where everything comes together to give the best accuracy. If you wanted something other than accuracy, then the process would be the same, start low, increase powder until your aim is met. Some bullets will have a "sweet spot" where it's preformance is optimal and that may not be acheived at the highest velocity.

What are you looking for? If your aim/goal cannot be met with loads in the manual (7.2-9.0 of Unique), change powders and begin the process again. If something appears abnormal, in any way, (primers look odd, case head looks too shiny or is hard to get out of the cylinder), with any given load perhaps that combination produced too high pressures, so stop and re-evaluate the load. Many times these oddities will appear with perfectly safe loads, just quirks of your gun.

Most of the time there ain't much need for max. loads...

[hightime]

Good answers. I have had some recomendations for powders not in any charts I have. I was spooked to even start any loads with them, without a way of seeing presures generated, even starting low is stupid.

Owen

[O.S.O.K.]

The answer is found in your chronograph. Every handloader should own one IMHO.

You stary low and then watch your velocity readings - against published data. Velocity is THE best pressure indicator. Yes, longer barrels will give a little more velocity at the same pressure, so you have to take that into account...

Stay within the maximum velocity for yourbpowder/bullet combination and that will keep you out of trouble.

The velocity will show effects of minimal chambers, hot primers, etc. Flat primers, hard extraction, etc. Are not reliable.

I personally don't like experimenting with propellants that I don't have published data for.

[Pisgah]

If you start with the listed minimum load and work up to the max listed, extraction remains easy, and the case looks good -- no severely-distorted or missing primers, no bulges, cracks or splits -- you are okay. But as mentioned, your best overall load, where power and accuracy are both present, will probably be a bit below the max in most cases.

As for "flattened primers", they SHOULD be flat -- but not right out to their very edge. If you see one that is flattened to the point of filling the entire pocket, with no trace of a rounded edge still on the primer, so that the primer now has sort of a flat-mushroom shape -- there's your sign (of excess pressure).

[Hobie]

When you season a steak, do you put as much on as you can to start and then wait for the next steak to try less seasoning? No, you start with a little and add until you are satisfied. Simple concept that BUT it is more critical than a possibly unsavory bit of meat, not working up could mean a damaged/destroyed gun OR lost appendages or worse. EVERY gun is different, even those produced one right after the other. Every difference affects pressure, one way or another, and until you know your gun and that lot of powder and that lot of bullets and that lot of primers you don't KNOW that max means max or beyond max or almost max or whatever.

When you fire a cartridge you get pressure signs and they are a loud noise and a bullet going out the end of the barrel. You might also note a "smoked" case from insufficient pressure for case obturation. These are pressure signs. What you mean to ask about is EXCESSIVE pressure. To be blunt, flattened primers, pierced primers and many other supposed signs of excessive pressure may or may not be such dependent on the individual firearm.

The manuals explain this much better than any poor attempt I might make at it. It is an unfortunate thing that one has to read the manual to get their explanation.

In reading your topic I was immediately struck with the idea, intended or not, that you are unhappy with our nearly unanimous advice to follow the manual and work up from the minimum loads. Sorry, but I'm not providing somebody's widow with "ammunition" to take all I've worked for all my life.

[Old Savage]

If you want a strong load - get a strong rifle.

[hightime]

I can see and appreciate your concern for my safety. I am too that's why all the questions. I read, I ask and hopefully go on to be a top notch reloader.
I have seen better response to my question this post. The information just seeps from the cracks.

Thanks all for the actual constructive information. As with most all forum posts you need to sift though the medium for the brass.
I hope I haven't annoyed anyone. We can get on chatting about wirlygigs or wooded wheelborrows or what ever.

Owen

[Griff]

Although we've said it before, it oft bears repeating: there are no stupid questions. Pay no heed to poorly worded replies to the contrary... as sometimes it's difficult to provide intelligent answers. Your's wasn't one of these, I assure you. Hobie gave the straight honest & truthful answer. YOUR gun is different from the one the manual writer used, be it pressure barrel or even the self-same model you own. Chambers differ, headspace dimensions differ, barrel bores differ, ergo pressures within will differ.

[Blaine]

The answer is found in your chronograph. Every handloader should own one IMHO.

You stary low and then watch your velocity readings - against published data. Velocity is THE best pressure indicator. Yes, longer barrels will give a little more velocity at the same pressure, so you have to take that into account...

Stay within the maximum velocity for yourbpowder/bullet combination and that will keep you out of trouble.

The velocity will show effects of minimal chambers, hot primers, etc. Flat primers, hard extraction, etc. Are not reliable.

I personally don't like experimenting with propellants that I don't have published data for.

Isn't it true that is some cases, an early pressure spike in combustion will not raise FPS, but still could be a danger? I'm thinking maybe a load with a low volume of powder.

[hightime]

Well I wasn't thinking about the whole story. Every gun is different. I for one have found a 45 rifle with a tight spot right near the chamber and another just before the forearm. I would hope there isn't too many built like that. I can see where a gun like that might have pressure spikes beyond a more perfect barrel. Good point!
I'm just lookin' fer answers.

Owen

[earlmck]

that's why all the questions. I read, I ask and hopefully go on to be a top notch reloader.

You have a good attitude Owen, and you have asked a better question than a lot of your answerers realized. I'm thinking you are already a pretty decent reloader and are sure to become "top notch".

"Stick with listed loads". Folks, this is the 45 Colt hightime is inquiring about. There is a greater range of loads at different pressure ranges for 45 Colt than any other cartridge under the sun. Old blackpowder guns need blackpowder pressures and we have listed loads for those. Newer Colts and most replica hawglegs are good for a notch upward in pressure and we have listed loads for those in the 18 to 20K psi range. Ruger Blackhawks and Redhawks are good for something in the 30K range easy and we have listed loads for those. A Rossi 92 or Freedom Arms Revolver is good for 50K easy enough and you can find some loads listed for those.

Been kinda' nice if you fellows advising hightime to stick with "listed loads from good manuals" would have let him know what pressure range you thought he should be looking for these listings. Since you don't say he has to assume you think he should stay at the lowest, or blackpowder pressure levels. Maybe you are right: it is an old design with not a lot of pressure handling capability designed in.

You have already heard some of the opinions on the stronger 73 actions due to better steels etc. When anyone suggests something in loading that is dangerous or could be and they are not aware of it they will likely begin to encounter sterner warnings from those concerned about the safety of the reloader.

Yeah, I'm the fellow who did so opine about the newer steel. But I don't know: never got to play with a '73. I would like to have one, will probably acquire one in the future. Along with hightime I'd like to know what pressure level to be looking at. I still think that made with good steel the '73 action has to be good for something above the blackpowder pressure levels. Heck, hightime's 9 grains of Unique is probably a bit above the pressure you want in an old blackpowder Colt or '73.

Sorry hightime, I'm betting that the reason you didn't get a more definitive answer is because there is nobody here who really knows what your action is good for so we assume the weakest. You might check Paco Kelly's writings. If he ever worked with one of the new '73s I'll bet he went on to wring her out a bit. Some of his loads for other cartridges such as the 30/30 go quite a bit past what you'll find in any manual, when he was loading for a newer rifle made with good steel, such as a Marlin 336.

[hightime]

Thanks for giving me a little credit and thanks for the help. I am not pushing limmits. I was however wondering if signs existed. I am getting my 45 rifle back in the morn. I hope they gave me a better barrel. One without two tight spots. I burned up almost a thousand rounds trying to get a load that shoot acceptable for hunting. What's acceptable? To be able to constantly hit a pie plate at a hundred yards with a bench rest. The reason for a lot of my questions is probably because of those tight spots in the first half of the barrel, softer sawaged bullets with a powder charge on the higher end of recomended loads, helped to tighten the bullet back up into the rifling as the barrel got bigger. Thus providing better accuracy than lower powered loads. If the barrel got tighter toward the mussel it might be just the opposite.

Owen

[Old Savage]

high guy - we are wondering along with you - we don't know what the limits are - I did not mean to sound critical to you or Earl.

[Pisgah]

>Isn't it true that is some cases, an early pressure spike in combustion will not raise FPS, but still could be a danger? I'm thinking maybe a load with a low volume of powder.


The event you describe is often referred to as "detonation". It is a controversial subject, as no one has ever produced a detonation under laboratory conditions, leading many to suspect that most if not all detonations are a result of double charges, not low volume charges, of certain powders.

If detonation does exist, the way to avoid it is to never drop your loads below minimum, and always visually examine every case after charging to be sure you have not double-charged.

[hightime]

You see, this topic is a good thing.
No problem Old Savage. I do have a bigger gun.

Owen

[KCSO]

Even case head expansion is iffy at lower pressures in say 45 Colt. And if you have an oversize chamber it is worse but here goes. Get a good mike and mike the case heads just in front of the rim on a FACTORY fired case. Use that for your base line and any expansion .002 over the base line is too much.

[hightime]

I'll do some of that. There sure is big chambers in these 45's. Loads up near the top of Lyman's recomendations realy work the brass. I actually hpoe a new barrel will allow lower loads with decent accuracy, so I don't put wear on the gun or the brass.
I guess I'm thinking loads in the middle of the road should be about right for hunting and target work. It's just my gun seemed to need higher loads. Maybe now it won't. Two more hours 'til UPS gets here and I'll see what Benelli USA did with my complaint. I'm going to tell the nearly seven month story soon and all I've learned along the way.

Owen

[earlmck]

Even case head expansion is iffy at lower pressures in say 45 Colt. And if you have an oversize chamber it is worse but here goes. Get a good mike and mike the case heads just in front of the rim on a FACTORY fired case. Use that for your base line and any expansion .002 over the base line is too much.

Yep, that's how you work up loads using powders not listed in the manual when you have a strong rifle or for loads for rifles stronger than the manuals are listing loads for. That's what makes this tricky and why hightime's question is not trivial: probably the Uberti '73 is not ready for loads that come anywhere near giving that .002 case head expansion (somewhere north of 50K psi).

But does anybody on the forum really know? I slid over to the Uberti web site and see they still show one model chambered in 44 mag. Even if they aren't selling these in the U.S., (as Hobie says -- "has anybody ever seen one?") the idea that they have at least strongly considered going with 44 mag shows that Uberti thinks these actions are good for quite a lot above black powder pressures. It is probably significant that the model showing 44 magnum is plain-Jane and not a case-hardened receiver.

[Griff]

Which action are you going to be shooting these .45Colt loads from? I would be remiss if I offered up loads indicated for a Ruger and your intended use is in a SAA, or those for an modern 1892 copy and had them used in an BP era action or even in the Uberti copies of the Henry or 1873.

I am a bit more cautious than some of our brother levergunners here & elsewhere. Unlike even the BP era 1892 Winchester or Marlins, let alone the 1894 Winchester or modern manufactured Marlins, the 1860, 1866, 1873 designs have no locking lug(s). The ONLY thing holding that bolt forward under thrust are 3 sets of pins in the links. The forward two on the bolt, the center two where the links pivot and the back two in the frame; and their alignment with the breech closed! Oh yes, let me not forget the grip the case will take against the chamber wall. An imperfect design at best, marvelously simply and functional... BUT, limited in power-handling capability.

Yes, Uberti has said they are building the 1873 in a .44Mag. But, has anyone seen one? There have been many discussions on bolt thrust and SAAMI pressures vs. European standards, etc.

There are many indicators of increasing pressure. But, some of those can also double as indicators of problems with the particular firearm. As some indicated by some of the answers you've already received, one man's flattened primer is another man's unflattened primer. Also at play is the generality that most .45 Colt rifle have a more generous chamber than pistols chambered in the same cartridge. This could also give some inference that bolt thrust in a rifle might be greater in your rifle than say in a revolver, you might have differing flattening of primers in a rifle with a particular load than you would with a revolver. Using a SET-IN-STONE view of such a thing might lead you to believe that you have a problem, but, in reality only indications that you have two different environments!

The answer is found in your chronograph. Every handloader should own one IMHO.
You stary low and then watch your velocity readings - against published data. Velocity is THE best pressure indicator. Yes, longer barrels will give a little more velocity at the same pressure, so you have to take that into account...
Stay within the maximum velocity for yourbpowder/bullet combination and that will keep you out of trouble.
The velocity will show effects of minimal chambers, hot primers, etc. Flat primers, hard extraction, etc. Are not reliable.
I personally don't like experimenting with propellants that I don't have published data for.

Isn't it true that is some cases, an early pressure spike in combustion will not raise FPS, but still could be a danger? I'm thinking maybe a load with a low volume of powder.

Once again, I'd say that is dependent on the action. Are you asking about "low density" (low percentage of total volume used by powder or large airspaces)? And, by "early", did you perchance mean "fast", as in, "of short duration"? I do believe that use of relatively FAST powders in old BP firearms that generate peak pressure similar to BP, yet do it in far less time have contributed to some of the blow-ups we've seen pictured from time-to-time.