Alliant Powder, Federal primers -- stupid packaging

[earlmck]

A little "pet peeve" of mine is when an outfit sells something that obviously they never tried using or they'd do it different. So I've been using Hercules (which is now Alliant) powder for a looong time (hey, I have a couple cans of HiVel #2 in the cupboard if that tells you anything about how long). And been using Federal primers all along, too. And in this part of the world the LGS's are places you might go to for a pound of powder or a box of primers in a pinch, but if you want quantity you get together with the buddies and make a big order.

So I've done that several times the last couple of years and made the mistake of ordering both Alliant powder and Federal primers, 'cause I am accustomed to using them.

Here's what I got:

HodgdonvsAlliantjugs.jpg

The Hodgdon jug contains 8# of powder -- plenty of room for it, but nicely close to full. The Alliant jug in the middle, slightly larger than the Hodgdon jug, has 5# of powder. So the jug is just half full when delivered. But the huge Alliant jug on the right has the same 8# of powder that the Hodgdon jug has. It is 1/3 full brand new! Why would they do that? And where do you store such a humongous thing?

And look at the Federal primers:

CCIvsFederalpkg.jpg

The carton holding 1000 Federal primers is over 3 1/2 times as big as the carton holding 1000 CCI primers. I can store 10,000 CCI primers in less space than 3000 Federals take up. Guess which brand I won't ever buy again!

What are these people thinking? Don't they realize that storage space for powder and primers is a precious and limited item? Sheeesh!

[Hobie]

I hear you! I do think, so far as powder is concerned, that they buy the containers based on the bulkiest powder and ship everything in those containers. Now, why did Hodgdon decide to go with round "bottles" rather than square or rectangular shapes which would pack and stack better? I have no idea but maybe it was branding. Now they put all their powders, Hodgdon/Winchester/IMR in the same containers. They take up so much extra room. Then again, Alliant does the same thing with its nominal 1 lb containers, tall round cylinders/bottles.

[Chas.]

Write 'em a letter. And while you're at it, write one to Frito-Lay complaining about the 1/2 full bag of chips.

[DixieBoy]

Earl - I've heard for many years the fairly well circulated story that Federal boxes it's primers that way because of an "accident" with a shipper many years ago. Don't know if it's true or not, but I'd guess most of us have heard the story.

I hear you loud and clear about the storage issue though. I like the MTM .50 caliber polymer ammo cans for storing primers, and for the few thousand Federal primers that I keep on hand, the darn things take up WAYYY more space than any other brand.

For the situation with the powders, who knows ? Maybe someone here has an explanation. Could it be that putting the 8 pounds of powder in a jug normalyl associated with 4 pound quantities is something the marketing guys have nixed ? You know, like customers complaining because "that doesn't LOOK like it's 8 pounds?" Just guessing at that one.

My solution to powder storage is one that the powder companies frown on, but it works safely for me. I LOVE Win 231 for my .45acp loading. Use a little AA#5 and some Unique too, but more Win231 than both the others by a good margin. When I'm down to half of an 8 pound jug, and I've kept my previous 4 pound empty jug, I make a label, write the lot number on it, and in unmistakably large writing, detail what it is. Then I clear tape it to the smaller jug. I don't mix lots, ever. But I will use a smaller empty jug of the same powder type, and label the beejeezus out of it, just to thwart any possible goofs on my part.

Of course, if you've chunked your smaller empty jugs this doesn't do a lick of good for your storage situation. But I'm an apartment dweller and I manage to be able to find storage for the empties till I need 'em.

You could just UPS those bulky and annoying Federal primers to me and I'll "look after 'em." Have some fun compadre. - DixieBoy

P.S. - Chas. - Is the bag of Fritos empty because of unused space, or you ate 'em already ?

[Griff]

Distrubution, warehousing depends on conformity of packaging. If shipping to a warehouse, they're using one size box for a carton... in order to palletize and ship, it helps if all cartons are the same size. A pallet may contain more than one product, but being in the same size contain, it's much more stable in transit and in the warehouse. Same applies when the warehouse ships to a distributor. They can even mix and match products to gain carton quantities. Same applies to a dealer or your local retailer.

As for Federal and their primers, they use the same packaging for ALL their primers. Standardization allows them flexibility in shipping and storage. Winchester and Remington use different size boxes for different size primers, limits their flexibility somewhat. Might explain some of the price variations.

[Batman1939]

I wonder if some of this may not be related to a marketing ploy. That is: to "fool" the undiscriminating buyer into thinking he/she is getting more for the money than a competitor might offer. If you see a big canister of powder for sale at a certain price sitting on the shelf next to a smaller size jug for the same price, you'll probably go for the "better deal". (and many folks really don't really read labels often)

I do know that vendors of bulk dog food, for example, have changed from 50 # bags to various lesser sized bags over the past several years while keeping the cost essentially unchanged. Thus, you may think you're getting just as much for the "same money" while the quantity slowly dwindles.

Recently, I was looking at some sales advertising regarding roofing cement--it was available in 1 & 3/4 gallon buckets or a 4 & 3/4 gallon pail (or some such units). Seem like very non-standardized measures and not really equivalent to "even" units in the metric system either.

Just my opinion.

[yooper2]

This is one of those things that just annoys the bejeezus out of me. I was also kinda ticked off when IMR powders started coming in the Hodgdon bottles since I had just built a new reloading bench with a bunch of storage space sized for the old metal cans. Frustrating.

Eric

[Hobie]

Write 'em a letter. And while you're at it, write one to Frito-Lay complaining about the 1/2 full bag of chips.

Don't get me started!

[Chuck 100 yd]

As long as they go bang, I am happy.

[spaceman spiff]

I wonder if some of this may not be related to a marketing ploy. That is: to "fool" the undiscriminating buyer into thinking he/she is getting more for the money than a competitor might offer. If you see a big canister of powder for sale at a certain price sitting on the shelf next to a smaller size jug for the same price, you'll probably go for the "better deal". (and many folks really don't really read labels often)

bigger is better!



spaceman

[mikld]

They do it for the single most important factor to any manyfacturer; money. They buy one size container (in this case to fit the bulkiest powder) and use it for everything. As in auto/truck manufacturing, I have found wire looms that have connections that go nowhere (but on a different engine/accessory package they are used). They save money by buying the most used wire loom and put that same loom on everything. Much, much cheaper than buying/designing several containers or wire looms. Just modern manufacturing...

EDIT; I forgot inventory control. Which is easier to keep track of? 5 different containers used specifically for one product or one container used for 5 products?

[earlmck]

They buy one size container (in this case to fit the bulkiest powder) and use it for everything.

I thought of that but rejected the idea immediately. The bulkiest powder out there is Trailboss and IMR/Hodgdon just put less ounces in a standard size jug (and charge less money per jug but a little more per ounce). No powder ever conceived could come remotely close to filling that huge jug Alliant is peddling. I think Batman called it when he suggested it is a marketing ploy and they think they are fooling the undiscriminating.

That's gotta' backfire! What reloader who has got serious enough about the business to want an 8# jug doesn't know about how much room that should take up? And won't be ticked off by this stooopid attempt to "fool" him? I was already a little fuzzed up about Alliant's Reloader series where they put 5# in a 10# size container. This deal with 8# in a 24# sized container blows me plumb away. A few more range sessions with grandboys and 30/30s should finish off my jug of RL7 and I can move the VARMINT into that (suitably relabeled of course) and toss that ungainly piece of horse pucky they shipped it in. But they'd better rethink their packaging if they expect to sell me another 8# jug of anything Alliant.

[El Chivo]

one reason I like the Hodgjjjdon powders is the bottle is small enough to fit in my metal ammo boxes. The Alliant are too tall. I don't seal the lid of the boxes but I hope in case of ignition there will be less spreading of flame than if they were just sitting out.

[Hobie]

They buy one size container (in this case to fit the bulkiest powder) and use it for everything.

I thought of that but rejected the idea immediately. The bulkiest powder out there is Trailboss and IMR/Hodgdon just put less ounces in a standard size jug (and charge less money per jug but a little more per ounce). No powder ever conceived could come remotely close to filling that huge jug Alliant is peddling. I think Batman called it when he suggested it is a marketing ploy and they think they are fooling the undiscriminating.

That's gotta' backfire! What reloader who has got serious enough about the business to want an 8# jug doesn't know about how much room that should take up? And won't be ticked off by this stooopid attempt to "fool" him? I was already a little fuzzed up about Alliant's Reloader series where they put 5# in a 10# size container. This deal with 8# in a 24# sized container blows me plumb away. A few more range sessions with grandboys and 30/30s should finish off my jug of RL7 and I can move the VARMINT into that (suitably relabeled of course) and toss that ungainly piece of horse pucky they shipped it in. But they'd better rethink their packaging if they expect to sell me another 8# jug of anything Alliant.

There's always bound to be an exception to the rule.

[rimrock]

I'd say somebody just recycled a bunch of used al Queda dudes, and sold 'em cheap. And the powder companies thought--what poetic justice!!!

rimrock

[buckeyeshooter]

who cares, plenty of room in my basement!

[Borregos]

I don't care how Federal package their primers, they are what I use, never had a problem with them, so I will buy them no matter what

[1894c]

lowest bidder... :)

[JohndeFresno]

I don't care how Federal package their primers, they are what I use, never had a problem with them, so I will buy them no matter what

That shows great brand loyalty.

As for me, I started with CCI primers and almost always use them when I work up a new load.

But the main reason that I don't like Federal primers is the lousy packaging!

I hand prime every load with the RCBS hand primer tool. I can easily dump 100 CCI primers into the tray by placing the tray on top of the box and then flipping it over, letting them drop. If one or two primers were packaged upside down, they are flipped within a few seconds by hand manipulation or agitation.

But the Federal primers are stored in the box sideways and spaced further apart. That makes it very difficult to dump all 100 into the primer tray without some falling outside the round container and onto the floor (or couch, where I usually do this process). And then you have one more unnecessary task - agitating the primer tray so that the randomly dropped primers (dropped on their side) are right-side up.

So - poor packaging, at least for me, encourages me not to use the Federal product, unless there is a compelling reason to use it for a particular load.

[J Miller]

Packaging is a problem with primers due to limited storage room. But aside from that price is what keeps me from buying Federal primers. Around here they are significantly more expensive than Winchesters or Remington or CCI.

What am I talking about I haven't fired a shot in over a year. Why do I care about bloody primers?


joe