primer strikes

[smokenrust]

I have a box of 30Rem that came with a Rem 14. I was looking at the primer strikes and wondered what caused the protruding ring around the dimple in two of them.

30 Rem s.JPG

In the front row of bullets, the first one looks to be a light strike.
The second one was a light strike but was fired and I had used it for testing the bolt after cleaning to see how good the firing pin worked so hence for deep dimple.
Third one has the ring around the dimple... One in question.
Forth one is a light strike live ammo yet. and the fifth is unfired.
Can you tell me what happened in the third and one right above it to have the ring? ,,, I do not know for sure if all these were fired in the same gun but am assuming so. Thanks guys.
I know, you like pics, so I will include pic of Rem pump.. no lever sorry.

Rem 14 30rem p.JPG

Just an off thought on Marlin.. Marlin sold many levers in the 30-30 caliber and also chambered for 35 Rem. Wonder why they just didn't adapt the rifle to rimless cartridge 30Rem like they did with the 35Rem?
Winchester could have sold their guns with the rimmed and Marlin could have sold theirs with rimless ammo...

[Griff]

Were all those fired from that one rifle?

[DPris]

Cratering is usually caused by higher pressures causing primer "flow-back".
You notice the area around the crater is flatter than on other fired non-cratered primers in the photo.
Denis

[smokenrust]

Fellow I got these from said he had no more use for the 30 rems since I bought the gun,,, so I assumed they all came from this one but the two shells (third from left and right above it) with the ring around them certainly look like possibly a different gun...
Shell #2 from left was a slight dimple and it had fired,,, So after cleaning the action, I had used it to see if firing pin worked better, It did, and thats why that primer is dimpled so hard, no powder to blow the primer out to face of bolt.
I have never seen primers with rings around the dimpled strick area before (or crs is working over time) But thought I would ask. If bolt wasn't fully closed on firing, that still wouldn.t happen on a straight faced bolt, you would see other signs like buldged cases or primers sticking out, right?
Denis, are you saying the protruding ring around the firing pin strike area is "flowback" on third from left shell?
Thanks, SnR

[Les Staley]

I'd guess different guns. The ones with the raised portion needed the fireing pin re-bushed.

[earlmck]

I'd guess different guns. The ones with the raised portion needed the firing pin re-bushed.

I'm with Les on this one. But you can tell for sure: if any rounds were fired in a different rifle they won't want to chamber in yours. So you can check that out and let us know ...

Congrats on the nice little pump. Mine is one of my favorite shooters and it takes exactly the same load data as the 30/30.

If you need some brass try this fellow out: http://shop.reedsammo.com/main.sc

[DPris]

Third from left, top & bottom.
I've run into that several times over the years.

Usually it means that pressures are high enough, for whatever reason, to cause the primer material to begin to flow back into the firing pin channel around the firing pin tip.

I've seen it in hand loads AND factory loads. Rifles AND handguns.
Denis

[Charles]

I have seen those "ringed" primers a number of times over the years. The primer is flowing around the firing pin into the firing pin hole in the breech. It is not a necessary indicator of high pressure, could be soft primers or a couple of other causes.

In a falling block single shot rifle, such things can cause problems with the block clearing the back of the chamber, but in pump, lever and bolt guns, it presents no issues to concerned with. Just reload and fire those cases.

I have a transition model 141 in 30 Remington that I have yet to fire. I plan on changing that soon.

[Hobie]

I would say a different gun. I would try ONE and see what happens. It isn't likely to catastrophically fail. I've seen such primers where the primer cup is suspected of being unusually soft.

[AJMD429]

If any rounds were fired in a different rifle they won't want to chamber in yours.

Would that be still reliably true if the different rifle had a slightly smaller chamber...?

[Griff]

I'd originally had a much longer list of questions, but lost my connection as cell coverage in rural Louisiana & Arkansawer quit. I suspect that they were fired in different guns... and yes, the two 3rd from left probably were in a gun that needed the firing pin bushed. 4th from left bottom was probably just the result of the bolt being slammed home, and a slightly weak firing pin spring that allowed it dimple the primer, but not hard enough to set it off. I'd pull the rest down, dispose of whatever powder was in them, and reload the brass using known load data.

[earlmck]

Would that be still reliably true if the different rifle had a slightly smaller chamber...?

Ha! You may get a kick out of this one, Doc. I was ready to assure you that you almost never get a rifle A chamber that is smaller in every dimension than rifle B's chamber. And so A's fired shells will give resistance in B's chamber and vice-versa. And that's how it was when I was a young fellow with a batch of buddies, all firing '06's. Nobody's fired shells would go in any body else's chamber. But I now have some duplicates right here in my own garage, so I went in there to check (because I have been mistaken occasionally).

It turns out that my newly acquired 250 Savages won't chamber each other's fired shells at all, just like the 06's of memory. But my two 30/30's chamber each others fired cases fine. And get this: I have 6 35 Remingtons. I can't identify fired cases to all 6, but of the 3 that I could figure who shot what, all 3 chamber each others fired cases with no problem. And of those three, one is factory Marlin, one is factory Remington, and one is a custom done by a gunsmith.

I am now speculating that when you are operating in the 50K psi and above area the case takes the shape of the chamber and you get this cross-sensitivity. But 40K psi loads and below maybe don't take on the shape of the chamber? Does that seem possible? And of course smokenrust's 30 Remington fits in that below 40K psi area.

So ignore me: it may well be that smokenrust can't detect whether or not different rifles got used. They may chamber just fine anyway.

What this discovery has done (thank you, thank you, Doc) is free me from a bunch of unnecessary full-length sizing of 35 Remingtons. I had just been assuming I had to do the F.L. size thing once I got to shooting a bunch of different rifles in the same cartridge. Looks like I don't have to! Wow! Hot Dog! Now I can just pop the primers with the universal deprimer, run the necks up into the .357 carbide die, send them through the Lyman "M" neck expander die, and never have to touch case lube. Whooopeee!

[Griff]

Would that be still reliably true if the different rifle had a slightly smaller chamber...?

Ha! You may get a kick out of this one, Doc. I was ready to assure you that you almost never get a rifle A chamber that is smaller in every dimension than rifle B's chamber. And so A's fired shells will give resistance in B's chamber and vice-versa. And that's how it was when I was a young fellow with a batch of buddies, all firing '06's. Nobody's fired shells would go in any body else's chamber. But I now have some duplicates right here in my own garage, so I went in there to check (because I have been mistaken occasionally).

It turns out that my newly acquired 250 Savages won't chamber each other's fired shells at all, just like the 06's of memory. But my two 30/30's chamber each others fired cases fine. And get this: I have 6 35 Remingtons. I can't identify fired cases to all 6, but of the 3 that I could figure who shot what, all 3 chamber each others fired cases with no problem. And of those three, one is factory Marlin, one is factory Remington, and one is a custom done by a gunsmith.

I am now speculating that when you are operating in the 50K psi and above area the case takes the shape of the chamber and you get this cross-sensitivity. But 40K psi loads and below maybe don't take on the shape of the chamber? Does that seem possible? And of course smokenrust's 30 Remington fits in that below 40K psi area.

So ignore me: it may well be that smokenrust can't detect whether or not different rifles got used. They may chamber just fine anyway.

What this discovery has done (thank you, thank you, Doc) is free me from a bunch of unnecessary full-length sizing of 35 Remingtons. I had just been assuming I had to do the F.L. size thing once I got to shooting a bunch of different rifles in the same cartridge. Looks like I don't have to! Wow! Hot Dog! Now I can just pop the primers with the universal deprimer, run the necks up into the .357 carbide die, send them through the Lyman "M" neck expander die, and never have to touch case lube. Whooopeee!

I have often thought to do this same thing with my .30-30s... But every time I shoot more than one, I end up just tossing the brass back into the same range bag! I've even taken several bags for the different empties... but on the range... "sometimers" disease kicks in and I revert back to habit!

[stretch]

I'm with Earl and Les.

I think the cases were fired in 2, or maybe 3 different guns.

The primers with the raised ring aren't showing any pressure signs
near the edges, (which may not be definitive!), but suggest that
Les is right - the firing pin hole is too big.

Work up a light load, shoot it in your gun, and see how the primers
look after 5 or 10 rounds.

Nice pump, though!

-Stretch

[DPris]

One of my stainless J-Frame .38s produced cratered primers from more than one ammo brand when I was first shooting it years ago.
New gun at the time, more than one primer brand.
I've gotten it with some near-high-end handloads & all I use are Winchester primers in my own stuff.

My most commonly encountered craters have been in new guns & not with particularly soft primers.
Just my experience.
Denis

[Sixgun]

I don't think its different rifles as whats the chance of 5 shells being fired from 3 different rifles, all in 30 Remington??

I'm thinking possible reloads and the guy reloading them used 30-30 dies and some makeshift shellholder which gave different headspacing on each case. The .30 Rem headspaces on the shoulder. Yes, I've done that myself. Or maybe, beings that its a slide action, which do have tolerence/wear issues, its not locking up precise as old guns which have not been fired in a long time have congealed oil in them and 5 firings ain't gonna clean it up. Scenerio #2 is more likely ----------Sixgun

[smokenrust]

Well, The fellow that had the 14 never shot it and was told that it did not fire...
So I took the bolt assembly out of the rifle and cleaned it from old grim and gummed up oil. It was a bit sticky when pumping the action before but runs so smooth now after the cleaning and oiling. The action locks up nice and tight too.
Griff, little oil sure helped the light strike situation.
I have looked and looked at the ammo and it appears that some of the shells have been put in the gun and then taken out again. At least from what I am surmizing. Don't think they were reloads.. but could be wrong.

Stan, Earl, Hobie, Griff and Stretch Give yourselves some big ceegars... I Grabbed those empties and two would not fit.. Guess which two didn't drop in.
Sixgun, conclusion is 2 different guns.
Glad thats figured out. Thanks guys.