A chopper it is, then.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun May 06, 2012 9:23 am

Did he mention why he thought it was a Knuckle case?

Looking at the pics it looks like a pan case, but its hard to tell. The rear deck that the cylinder base sits on is narrower on a knuckle, and won't be even with the left case. In other words, the base flange on knuckle rear cylinders is narrower than pan and shovel bases. Putting pan or shovel rear cylinder in knuckle cases leaves the rear cylinder base flange overhanging the case a little. The case half should also have a boring number stamped into it on the botton with the year in two digits. No biggy either way, it will work.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Mon May 07, 2012 5:05 am

It had to do with the holes that hold the generator are too small for the later pan generator bolts and oil passages that were cut and plugged in a couple places. I can't really explain it all as I don't know it all, yet,

but I'm learning.
Gobbler

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed May 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Here's where the ride sits. The back end is about where I want it. The seat, rack brake rotor and sprocket are all mounted. the dash is started but not done.
Gobbler

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm

Is that a rear disk break and a drumb front?

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Thu May 10, 2012 4:24 am

Nope. I'll have disk brakes front and rear but boy, from that angle I can see how it looks that way. What you are seeing is the top of the banana caliper.
Gobbler

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed May 23, 2012 3:57 pm

Need some help folks. The right case is mounted up and ready to be bored for the roller pinion bearings. Problem, we can't find what size the rollers are. Meaning the books give every piece of information except the roller size. So what is the nominal roller size for an early shovel pinion bearing? The shaft is 1.250 and the case is 1.50 giving space for an 1/8th inch bearing roller. We are ready to cut but to what size? We think .250" rollers. Are we right?
Gobbler

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed May 23, 2012 11:13 pm

Your manual should have some info. You'll need the knuckle or early pan manual for info pertinent to that side case. The bearings need to be in hand to bore in any event, they are caged rollers (I forget the term, but the cages or retainers came apart easily to replace the rollers themselves). You buy the bearings and fit them when you hone, honing till the bearings and shaft jsut go into the race with the shaft. It's done by feel and fit, not by a number. I believe there may be a deflection spec also, (which would also require the parts to be assembled to check) but it's been nearly 30 years since I built a lower end.

In the shop, I believe we'd mic the old bearings for a baseline on if they were standard size or oversize, and have various size oversize bearings for replacements. Each boring was the next oversize bearing unless you used a new race in the case. I don't recall the increments of bearing oversize, but they weren't very big steps. Looking at some of the suppliers websites may give some info. I think you arent looking for an early shovel pinion bearing size, but a knuckle or early pan pinion size.

Be sure you have the correct right side (pinion) shaft in the flywheels. They were different in different years. I think all would fit the various flywheels, but I may be mistaken. I believe the later shafts were large diameter, tho that may just be the left side.

Thinking further, the newer motors may have had permanent caged bearings for the right side (pinion)shaft, the older ones had cages that came apart easily and the bearings were loose and easy to replace.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Thu May 24, 2012 9:12 am

Your just about spot on. The hitch is we are using the shovel pinion shaft and the knuckle case has the hole sized to fit the early 1" diameter pinion. We are going to mill it out to fit the later shaft. That's why I was asking for the nominal roller size of the roller. I now believe it is .250. At this point I need to order the bearings and bore and hone to fit, right?
Gobbler

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri May 25, 2012 6:24 am

Right. At least that sounds right to me. Is there enough meat in the steel insert in the case to bore it out that big? And it seems to me it should be very hard, maybe too hard to bore. On the engines I build I just line hone. Made my own set-up for this procedure. (sounds like a painful medical term)

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat May 26, 2012 5:23 am

Well after enough advice from enough folks to not procceed, I decided to order the correct pinion shaft and bearings instead of cutting. I was hoping to save some dough but it seems this is not the place to do it. Thanks. I'll be updating as we go.
Gobbler

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat May 26, 2012 12:56 pm

I think that's probably the best plan. I don't know how much a shaft is today, but they weren't that much when I was working on them.

Wright is correct, the bearing races are very hard. Honing to fit the next bearing size sint that tough, but taking one out to a larger type may be a tall order. Not sure how much material would be left after that. The old races/inserts could be replaced also. The older motors were rebuildable for ages. The cylinders were about the only thing that had a limit on how many times it could be bored, and we sleeved a fair number of them to take them back to standard once they got to the point pistons weren't available (they get thin and don't cool well also).

I believe it's easier to do the shaft/bearing fitting with the shaft out of the flywheel.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:24 am

It's been a while so I'll bring things up to speed. We are still waiting to get a set of pinion bearings for the right case half. Crazy. We have been waiting for over a month now and I started looking elsewhere. I may have found them yesterday. The wife and I went to an area indy and talked to the "old bike" guy, Al. Now were onto something. Seems the shaft and race I have wasn't used but for a few years and the roller cage is a rarer part. Of course, I wouldn't want it any other way. Al looks me right in the eye and asks are you sure that is the size? Yep I say and he nods and says OK l just wanted to be sure before we try to find that rare part. The next guy behind the counter remarks that he didn't know about that variation. Nice. After an hour we have new parts ordered from them that should be here in a week. Fingers are crossed. After that, we are ready to start assembling the motor. I think we have all the parts and gaskets to get it installed. More to follow.....................
Gobbler

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:16 am

Well happy Fourth of July to all. I recieved an e-mail this morning from J&P that the bearing assembly has shipped. We will see..............
Gobbler

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:53 am

Back at ya bro, hope ya get it running before long.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:34 am

The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! Looks like the build will start first of the week. I'll be posting pictures of the build from crank to heads. This should prove interesting to say the least as I've never seen a motor built from scratch. But what the hay, what can go wrong?

Gobbler

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:05 am

Gobblerforge wrote:The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! Looks like the build will start first of the week. I'll be posting pictures of the build from crank to heads. This should prove interesting to say the least as I've never seen a motor built from scratch. But what the hay, what can go wrong?
Gobbler

I want to see that puppy when I roll thru Ohio the next time....Hopefully next summer.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:19 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Gobblerforge wrote:The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! The Pinion Bearings Are Here!!! Looks like the build will start first of the week. I'll be posting pictures of the build from crank to heads. This should prove interesting to say the least as I've never seen a motor built from scratch. But what the hay, what can go wrong?
Gobbler
I want to see that puppy when I roll thru Ohio the next time....Hopefully next summer.

+1, but I'll settle for a video of it here before then! Next trip thru OH, I expect to see it in person...

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:36 am

It's started. Yesterday we got the new race installed and trued. I had no idea how much work goes into a simple bearing race but it took us most of the day. Some of you had indicated how much work it was and how impotant it is but still. My buddy, a journeyman machinest, said that since we don't have all the fancy harley stuff to do it we would do it the old way. Lined up the cases and the holes were almost perfect, he said. Then we made a lap tool, something else I had never seen, and spent what seemed like forever lapping the bearing until the hole was perfectly strait up and down and side to side. Now the parts all need a good cleaning and we can assemble the crank today.
Gobbler

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:14 am

Love it, best part is you`ll know everything there is to know to fix anything that needs fixing while traveling.
Your bike will be real personable to ya.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:53 am

With all due respect to your friend, that isn't line boring/lapping the way the factory does it. With the proper factory type tools, the cases are assembled together to lap the bearing races, that aligns the bores so the crank runs perfectly true. I haven't heard of anyone indicating off the individual case to try to get an alignment. Line lapping is even more important when you have mismatched cases. It may have been quicker/cheaper to buy the tools than to make them if he's charging you anything at all to do this, or simply have a Harley shop with the right tools do it. It shouldn't take more than a half a day to completely build a lower end, including line lapping/fitting the bearings. When you mentioned doing this, I assumed he had the right factory type tools for the job.

Hope that works out, but if it was me, I'd buy the next oversize bearings and, line lap it with the correct tool. I may be all wet, but I havent heard of it being done this way. The correct tools are very simple, but effective at aligning the bearing races. They indicate off the other case race to get the aligment to it, not neccesarily the case. There also should be 3 (maybe more, dont recall the exact number) of alignment studs for the case bolts. They are a light press fit going in their holes. The top case bolt, and at least two of the lower ones are oversize tapered studs to get the cases exactly aligned for boring/lapping, and keeping everything true when running.

You used the shaft to fit the bearings to the race? Its normally done by feel rather than numbers, meaning you use the actual shaft and bearings to get the finish lap just right. It isn't measured, then lapped to that number, but done by hand fit until the shaft just goes into the bearings, and has a certain amount of shake (or not) when it goes in. It's tedious. Lap, clean the parts, check fit with the parts, lap more, clean, check fit, etc, until it's just right. The lapping tool is also expandable. It's adjusted as you go to get the fit, and keep everything in the race bore paralel as it laps.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:31 am

Goes to show what i know about it, your lucky to have Malamute in this project bro.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 pm

As many have said before--interesting project. Beyond my mechanical ability for sure.

I thought guns were Malamute's #1 interest but now I'm not so sure.

Don

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:46 pm

I hear what you are saying and your right in the line up. We had the cases bolted together and he spent some time getting everything lined up as it should. The bottom half was anchored down and the top half was just removed rather than work through the hole. We did the lap until the bearings and shaft did fit with no clearance then took it .0008" further. Just as the manual stated to do. I'm sure someone with all of Harley's tools and does it every day could do it in half a day. It took us two. Once the race was done, the pinion shaft could be installed in the crank. Today we got the crank assembled and trued. What an amazing operation. I got to use a lead hammer I made just for the build. It's a tedious series of steps but once it lined up we could start to assemble the cases. After the casses were assembled I was again amazed at how smooth the crank turned. With finger tips, I could lightly grasp the conecting rod tops and rotate the crank as if it was almost a float. Nice. Tomorrow we will put on the pistons and cylinders, most of the pinion side and bring the motor home. Maybe bolt it on the frame.
Gobbler

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:16 pm

Sure looks like it went well, grats bro, good job.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:18 am

Cool. Glad you did a line hone/fit.

What was your runout? A thou and a half was about the sweet spot if I recall.

It is a nice feeling when they are all put together.

What's your displacement, 74 CI? If you get feeling like a little more would be nice, a set of S&S 80" flywheels is a simple thing. They're lighter than the factory flywheels also, meaning you get a snappier throttle response. A mild/moderate cam also makes a real difference in many motors. I built a couple that were downright scary fast. Sort of cool being able to twist it and pass a car in about 3 seconds.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:15 am

I don't recall the runout but it was within specs. I'm thinking 1 or less on the left and a shade over .1 on the right . But that was yesterday so I'm not sure. I was impressed at the time and patiance required to do the crank. Yes it's a 74 inch. I'm not a speed freek so I realy don't think I'll ever need more power but we'll see. I found it also interesting one time, since you bring it up, that the 74 and 80 inch crank halves were different sizes and require a little metal work on the scraper to make 80 crank lobes work. Today the new cylinder studs go in and the pistons and jugs go on.
Gobbler

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:56 pm

And on they are. New gaskets, studs, nuts and washers got the cylinders mounted and pistons are in with new rings. We had to enlarge one bushing to fit the new pinion shaft at the gear cover. There seems to be at least three different sizes depending on which years, some pinions only a couple years in the fifties, each was made. All bushings were the correct size but one and fortunatly it was too small. Only needed some 16th of an inch out. It still took some hour to set up and cut. The oil pump is on and tight and now the block sits in the frame. Work will keep me from the build for a day or two. Hope to get the heads on this weekend. We'll see....
Gobbler

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:31 pm

Looking good!

Are you going to use the alternator for power? One trick we figured out,...where the rubber plug goes into the front of the case from outside, they would sometimes work loose, and the plug would arc and burn. If you wedge a piece of rubber tubing, (just squish it flat and wedge it in the gap) like oil line or gas line between the plug and I think the bracket for the rectifier (charge controller), it keeps the plug in place nicely and the plug end doesnt arc and burn. There may be a better plug or fix by now, but it seemed like a fairly common problem back then. It was a simple fix.

The heads are easier to put on with the motor out of the frame. If in the frame, you'll probably need a curved "manifold and starter wrench" that has a 9/16 and 5/8 box ends. It allows you to turn the head bolts when the motor is in the frame and get around the impediments. It's nearly impossible to use a real torque wrench on the heads. We'd turn the bolts up snug, alternating the sequence around to even out the torque load, eventually turning them very tight by hand. The last touch was to take a hammer and give each headbolt two or three moderate raps to give a final torque. They wouldn't come loose that way, but you could still get them apart when needed.

Before bolting the motor and trans down tight in the frame, the inner primary cover needs to be tightened to both, then the motor and trans mounts can be torqued. It can bind the parts when not done that way.

The top motor mount needs to be evenly set in place, if it isnt naturally fitting, any torque to get it to go into place will make the top motor mount crack, and make it feel rough (vibration). It may need to be shimmed with washers on any of it's mounting surfaces to achieve that.

Your gas tanks, the mounts need to be naturally fitting also, without stress, or the tanks can crack by the rear mounts. Tighten the top front bolt and see if it swings the rear of the tank away from the frame, is so, bend the ear on the tanks till it lays evenly against the frame at the back and lower mounts. Same for the rear mounts, check to see that when gently torqued, it isnt stressing away from the frame at other spots. The frame tabs can be bent with a large crescent wrench to adjust them in and out or twist them as needed. I used to cut very thick leather washers (like 1/4 or so thick) and put between the frame mount and the tank. That cut down on the cracks in the tanks.

There's a place on the rear legs of the frames that tended to crack, we used to weld small gussets in them at a certain point to reinforce them. They never seemed to break there any more after that. The factory does it on the left side, we'd put a gusset on the right side at the same basic place. It's a little different from side to side, but you can see what needs to be reinforced, it's where the tube goes into the cast piece above the swing arm mount. That joint was the weak point. Not biggy, and not everyone has trouble with it, but enough of them cracked that many of the guys I knew, and had work done at the same shop I fequented and worked at for a while did the fix when they had the frame down for painting. I think I started that particular thing after mine cracked.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:55 am

Morning, Mute. For the begining I'm going to run the generator. I know it sounds wrong but having never run a generator before I want to experiance it. Later I plan to hook up the alternator. I then plan to devise something to run off of the generator port. I'm thinking something like a air pump or something. I still need the rotor and washers as well as the regulator for the alternator side to work. All I have is a stator. I see there are different amp alternators. What is the differance and does it matter what rotor I get for my stator and how do I tell?
The motor is just sitting there and will be removed for assembly. I just wanted to see it in the bike.

Yesterday I got started cleaning and checking the rocker arms, spacers and shims. I still have to seat two valves and put some studs in one head for the rocker box. I still have to clean and reassemble the transmition to get it ready for bolting to the inner primary. I would love to see the motor installed in the next week or so but we'll see. I have ead some about bolting the motor in and just as you say, there is a lot that goes into it. Not just drop in and bolt up. Shimming and adjusting seems to be very important to get a happy motor. We'll try.

Gobbler

plstktnkr2 · Post by **plstktnkr2** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:32 am

Please make sure ALL gasket sufaces are FLAT! AMF had shoddy workmanship (if your parts are made in that era) make sure rocker boxes are flat and head surface on top is flat. They used to make aluminum pushrod tubes that had nuts to "screw them apart" with rubber seals . I used them and my scooter never leaked. just a greybeard's 2 cents.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:36 am

Just read through all the project updates. Great project.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:58 am

New update and a change of plans. I purchased everything I need to operate the alternator. The rotor was needed, or spacers to fit, before the primary can go on so I was looking for just a rotor. I figured I could buy everything else later as I went, but I eneded up finding everything I needed on the net at a really good price so the purchare was made. It comes with the rotor, rectifyer, spacers, screws and stator all new. Now I don't have to work on getting the generator working.
Yesterday we got the rocker boxes assembled as well as the transmission. I still have a couple valves to get installed as well as the studs for one of the heads. Getting closer..........
Gobbler

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:36 am

Really enjoying this thread, great project, thanks Gobblerforge

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:03 am

Just catching up Brad. Glad to see you going with the alternator, this way you'll actually be able to run at night without worries. I have only a small head-light and tail light but still worry about having enough amps for night running. Of course I'm remembering my 6 volt years and things are much better with 12 volts.

The best generator is from a VW beetle. Has to be modified but will put out 35 amps. But, my old generator is proving to be very reliable. I remember ruining a bunch of the solid state regulators by jumping or charging without unhooking the regulator. And the things were nearly a hundred dollars back in the 80s.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:23 pm

And so the morning sun shows the lifeless core..........

but once adorned with bands of copper red.........

we see it wait for breath and blood.........
to yet awake, a Shovelhead..........

Gobbler

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:12 pm

Looking good, better fill those plug holes!!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:24 pm

Can almost hear it running now.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:41 pm

Just because I don't talk about this don't mean I'm not watchin real close. sure is COOL

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:38 am

Borregos wrote:Looking good, better fill those plug holes!!

Good suggestion. I'll go do that now.
I'm waiting on a couple of parts that will allow me to button up the gear side and the primary side later this week. Maybe get back to it friday.
Gobbler

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:36 am

Looking good!

I think the alternator is a good idea. The parts may be better now, but I went through several solid state regulators on my generator motor, they just didnt seem to hold up.

A thought occured to me the other day after I posted, your 4 main motor mount bolts should be fine thread. The fine thread resists vibration better, the factory used them. I always used nylon lock nuts also, so if they came loose I wouldnt lose them. I tended to buy new bolts when I was doing a fresh motor in my own bike. Grade 5 is fine.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:43 pm

Today we got the right side about buttoned up. The cam and all the gears are all in and shimmed where required. The lifters are in and I learned how to put in rods and covers. Oil lines are temporarily hooked up, too. Next time we go after the left side alternator and primary cover and drive. Bit by bit, eh?

Gobbler

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Coming together nicely

. So enough you will he readt to kick that starter.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:39 pm

Looks Good!...You take that baby down the road and there wont be anything you wont know how to handle if trouble comes to it...

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:16 am

We have more done now but hit a snag. We were about to have the primary drive when we found that I have the wrong primary chain. The one I have is too short. It is for a later model. Hello, J&P? Order is already shipped as of this mornings email. The transmission is bolted down and shimmed and the inner primary is on.
Gobbler

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:01 am

Awesome bro but ya gotta do something about the two different color fenders.
Lookin forward to the day you get it running.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:11 am

Pitchy wrote:Awesome bro but ya gotta do something about the two different color fenders.
Lookin forward to the day you get it running.

I like the look. I have looked at hundreds, if not thousands, of pictures to see what colors I like and I don't like the ones with red rear fenders. It's just my style. Dude, I'm a trend setter, and you mark my words, the bike world will convert to my style when they see this package. You just watch...........

Gobbler

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:58 am

Gobbler,
Dang guy, why don't you put that thing up on a table while you are working on it? I see one in the background that would hold it. I have an old "A frame" hoist that I use to lift mine and drag a wooden table that I built to build engines on under it. A couple concrete blocks and 2x4s and it will sit there just fine. Sure saves the back.
It is lookin' good. No feeling quite like puttin' one together from scratch. Years ago a buddy asked me to pick up the tab washer that goes under the nut that holds the sprocket on the tranny. When I offered it to him he says, "I already got one", so I says, "Guess I'll have to build a bike then." Turned out a panhead.
Are those original pipes coming down? Seems I remember that front one coming through the frame like that. I really like that finned gear cover, mine is slab side which is correct for a shovel but the fins look better.
Know anyone who needs a front end? I have one like yours that has never been rid.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:33 pm

Well you see, I'm more Neandertal than Cromanion so I'm more comfortable bent over and my arms down at my sides. If I put it up on the table then I would have to sit upright with my arms out in front of me and that is less comfortable.
Three of the pipes are stock style with the crush pipe going between the frame and the motor. I made the Y pipe yesterday and have the exhaust on. Not done but on. I made a cover for the generator port that I will ge to in the future. I'm still going to build a PTO to run there. I have a big job Monday so I probably won't get anything done until tuesday or so. Mounting the regulator is next and then the primary when the chain gets here.
Gobbler

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:24 am

The new primary chain came in and is already on and the clutch lever is already working.
Gobbler

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:36 pm

OK, the tanks are on, the primary is on, all you need is fuel lines and a carb on it and we can listen to music out of the pipe. Huh? I'm almost as anxious as you are.