Home Defense Decision - Want input, please

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:55 pm

Well, I can't believe I have to even think about this but it is what it is...

Got an e-mail from our neighbors. Apparently, yesterday someone broke in to a house in my neighborhood, in broad daylight. Their MO is to knock and verify if anyone is home. If not, the use a sledgehammer to "unlock" the door and help themselves.

Now, we live in a pretty nice neighborhood ($275K and up, older community, upscale suburban, lots of families with children) and I have lived in some pretty dicey areas growing up so I know what to look for and I moved my family here to get away from just this type of issue.

My question is this...which would make the most sense as my home defense choice for me and my wife? The choices are -

- Stevens 12 pump with 7 1/2 (9 rounds)
- AR 15 with 60 rounds of XM193 (5.56)
- Rossi 92 with 10 rounds of .45LC
- Glock 17 with 34 rounds of Hornady CD
- 1911 with 14 rounds of 230 FMJ

So, my wife works from home all day, and she is my main concern. She is a novice shooter and I want to be sure she has the best option. I am afraid the 12G will be too much, but is the easiest to hit with. The Glock is a Glock, but you need to be capable. The lever seems pretty easy, but it is untested by me (though I got it from a board member here, so I am sure it is fine.)

The big issue is our kids. Based on the home layout, penetration is definitely an issue.

I am REALLY struggling with this, and the alarm would probably be enough, but I need to figure this out. I need to decide the best option for home at night and during the day when she is home alone....

Thanks for the input. This makes me so angry just having to think about it!!!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:05 pm

The first thing you should do is get a dog.

Make sure you wife carries her mobile phone at all times, even inside the house.

After that get her firearm that's not too complicated, that she's comfortable operating, and can easily become proficient with.

Have you thought about a .410 pump? Or a .38 revolver?

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:14 pm

Unfortunately, there is no ramp up time on this. I need to do this now and a dog is not part of the plan (unless I can find a home for both my cats...anybody want a couple of tuxedos?)

I have to use what I have available.

I am so torn between the AR/1892 and the G17/1911 combo...the AR has a light, the 92 and 1911 have less (relatively speaking) penetration. The G17 is easiest to work in a stressful situation, but I am highly proficient with the 1911. I shoot the AR well, but the lever makes more sense, I just haven't shot it yet.

This is difficult... my family's safety is the most important and it needs to be factor....

It almost seems like a G17 and the 1892 would be the easiest to operate...and 45 packs a helluva wallop!

gak · Post by **gak** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:25 pm

20 ga pump and a .38 with "home defense" loads (for penetration issue). My choice is a 16 ga Ithaca--near 12 ga "pow" with near 20 ga push. Ammo not available at Wallyworld which is some folks' test. Not mine, but I understand. Advances in 20 ga ammo has placed it very close to 16 effectiveness, and guns/ammo a lot easier to come by especially for start up...thus the recommendation. Maybe a Remington (or Mossberg) of the shorter "tactical" (more wieldable) length. Some shotguns are available at "youth" length which may be desirable for shorter LOP. Bedside: .357 or .38 revolver 3" min, 5" max - for an average of 4" which is the most popular (in the Smith K or Ruger GP frame) and hence most numerous found out there, loaded with above. For carry - same as above loaded with .38+P's. My .02.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:32 pm

Don't laugh, but think about touching off a gun in close, enclosed quarters, and get the lowest pressure, biggest bullet you can think of. (reduced recoil slug?) (Standard .45 230fmj?) A friend touched off a .44 mag in the garage about 12 years ago and still does not have much hearing in one of her ears.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:34 pm

I would start with deterrence.
A security system with cameras and motion detectors on all sides of the house and a driveway alarm will give advance warning of trespassers. Signs warning of the security system should deter most criminals.

A firearm is only effective if it is in hand when the need arises, not in the next room. An airweight 38 snub in hand beats a 12ga pump 20 feet away.

Jack

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:49 pm

None of the choices seem ideal for a novice shooter. Of the firearms listed, I would give her the Glock. The best thing to do is let her fire the choices and -LET HER CHOOSE THE ONE SHE WANTS TO USE! If you impose your choice it will not work. I was in sort of the same situation so I took my wife down to the gun store that I used to work at and she chose a Ruger Crimson Trace LCR. With non +P ammo she shoots it well and she is happy-very important! God Bless.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:34 pm

Right away, start leaving radios on, and pin notes (different ones each day) to the front door "Joe, if your Uncle doesn't come to the door, just email him or call me instead - he's been having headaches and stays home sometimes." or "Lisa - don't bug your father; he's got a hangover and is in a real bad mood and I couldn't find his pistol to take away while he's asleep," or "Ken busted his ankle last night and stayed home on doctors orders. He can't come to the door until we get him some crutches, so just give me a call later." Those might at least give some punk the idea to try another place TOMORROW, while you're still getting your other options in order.

You should keep the 1911 on you if that's what you're most confident with. Get 'frangible' ammo if you really are worried about penetration (Glaser Safety Slugs, etc.), and watch your backstop if you DO have to shoot. Likely you won't have to - these types are usually just going to 'confront' you if they make the mistake of not thinking you're home but you actually are home and they walk in on you or vice versa. Biggest danger would be if your wife is napping or in the shower or some such.

If some creep is coming at her, she'll shoot a 12 gauge, recoil or not, but you could let her practice with some very light target loads of small shot (which do a fine job of stopping bad guys anyway).

In the long run like someone else said, get her to a range as soon as possible and let her shoot ALL your guns and let HER pick the one she's most comfortable with. If it's the AR-15, penetration will be a concern, but her needs must come first. They DO make frangible rounds for .223 as well, by the way. Of course the idea is that if she's a good shot with whatever she chooses, and the bullets are constructed right, neighbors won't be endangered. (i.e. if the gun she handled far and away the best was a .444 Marlin, frangible .44 pistol bullets wouldn't endanger neighbors much, but I'll bet they'd rearrange the bad-guy's innards for him.)

Consider letting her shoot other guns, and if she finds one she likes better than any of yours, that you feel has power, limited penetration, and so on, buy one for her or trade yours for one for her.

I agree about 'inside shooting' the high-velocity guns - only if no other option were availabe. That's why I'd go for the shotgun, and the .45 Colt or .45 ACP guns first.

Back to the prevention - yes - get a DOG, even if you have to just 'borrow' one from the pound for a week until you settle on one you want for keeps; the dog will give you or wife some warning if you're in the shower or basement or whatever when trouble comes knocking.

The BEST thing is if they think you're home - they will go elsewhere, then. Be sure that your wife knows this, because if she's too afraid to say anything when they knock, the next thing she knows they will be in the house and she will HAVE to shoot - - - far better she answer (NOT open - just answer) the door. As far as having a gun, she keeps the element of surprise if she doesn't say "I've got a gun", but if saying that is needed to keep pervert/burglars from coming in knowing she's home, it could save her life by preventing a confrontation, or save lots of legal hassles and a lifetime of looking over your shoulder in case the deceased burglar's next of kin want revenge.

Good luck. Too bad our Holy War on Drugs and our Welfare State society have so destroyed our society...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:43 pm

I'm with Rodeo Kid, let her pick what she likes best. I once bought my wife a S&W M60 for around the house. She didn't like it and doesn't want it. I took her shopping and she picked out a Charter Arms Undercover. She likes the way it LOOKS?
Don't try to understand it just work with it.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:06 am

If she's a novice, give her the shotgun to start out with. She won't even notice recoil if she has to use it on intruders. TRAIN HER ASAP to get her used to using it. As suggested, she can train with light target loads of some sort. I stay away from recommending semi auto pistols to novice shooters. If it jams and they don't know what to do, it could be a life threatening mistake. A 20 gauge pump with a short barrel works fine for a female, and she could use the 12 gauge until you find a suitable 20. Lights are easily installed on shotguns. If not a shotgun I would outfit her with a nice .38 special (what my wife carries). I would have her carry the .38 on her at all times, and have the shotgun close at all times in case of a surprise. She can use the .38 to get to the long gun. A sporting shotgun often isn't practical in tight quarters, but in reality any gun is better than none. Another very important thing is that she needs to be comfortable with the gun she is using to protect herself.

As pointed out previously, a dog that barks is a great deterrent. My dogs are both big and sound very vicious when there is a noise outside, someone at the door, etc. Burglars don't like dogs, especially big, mean sounding ones.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:38 am

shooter wrote:Burglars don't like dogs, especially big, mean sounding ones.

I just got a big, mean-sounding wife instead - saves on the dog-food budget. . .

-

. . . did I say that. . . ?

Seriously though - prayers up for you both; it's not a fun situation at all.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:22 am

Sorry to hear your dilema. If it were me, I would definately tell the wife, DONT OPEN THE DOOR unless your certain who it is. IMO, I would take her out and select a firearm just for her, you didnt mention how comfortable she is with firearms or experianced. I am thinking a 20 ga semi auto in a youth version, low recoil, short barrel. If recoil is an issue, I wouldnt hesitate to get her a nice little 10/22 with a 25 rnd clip or two to go with it. I would tell her shoot till its empty. With your current firearms available, I would go with the .45 Rossi handloaded to a lower velocity or go with the GLOCK 17.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:13 am

Cats will not be a warning or a deterrent.

If you're serious, and I hope you are, get 2 dogs; one larger, one smaller.

Terriers wake and give the alarm quicker than some other breeds. A Jack Russel and a Rhodesian Ridgeback would be one good combination. Rhodies are nothing to fool with.

Dogs can certainly be dealt with by an intruder, but they have no wires to cut, are mobile and go directly to the problem, therefore BUYING YOU TIME, to get to gun and phone.

The longer these pieces of trash are successful, the more brazen they will become. Daylight smash-and-grab on empty houses will eventually start happening when occupants are present. A house with active dogs is not their first choice.

.38 Special is ideal; no controls to fumble with, easy to use. The hard part is getting her comfortable with the gun and with the idea of using it to protect herself.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:25 am

Rottweiler is the answer you are looking for.
If you look around you will have no trouble finding one that likes cats, all mine have.
They don't need to be told what to do, they will make an executive decision on their own, and have a long history of being able to take out the trash.

As for guns, I would think that most of the long guns you mention would be a pita to swing around inside the house and most of them require more than basic gross motor skills to operate. Remember that in a bad times, fight or flight situation gross motor skills may be all you have, so you want a point and shoot pistol with no safety catch or hammer or etc, etc.
There is a reason why a lot of the old experts recommend a basic DA revolver. If you have any doubts about the usefulness of the 38 spl, ask John Lennon what he thinks they can do.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:18 am

Gundownunder wrote"There is a reason why a lot of the old experts recommend a basic DA revolver"... I agree with this 100%. Elmer Keith wrot long ago that when You have a revolver You have it all no mags to lose or fumble with. My Wife and I both have small .38's and when We took our CCW class alot of the students scoffed at them in the classroom,they werent Hi-tech in todays world. out on the range it was a different story. many had jams and dropped mags in the mud. My wife is a novice shooter and She is able to load,fire and handle the .38.
I would find a good CCW class and take it with Your Wife. My Wife liked it alot.
My Sister had two scumbags pull around the back of Her farmhouse one summer day,She looked out a window seeing a beatup junker with two nasty dudes getting out.She has Her revolver in the kitchen,went and got it as one said "try the door"....just then Her 130lb rottwiler
was trying to rip the door down. with out the dog She would have been shooting.they left. Good Luck.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:27 am

You mentioned Kids. How old, and how will you plan to avoid the kids or other children visiting from accessing your home protection weapons?

Don't rely on the Rossi until you have shot it with the ammo you intend to use. I have seen way too many pistol cartrige leveractions jam, to trust one, until tested. And pumps will jam too, they are not as infalable as the myth indicates.

I probaby would want a dog or two in your case. The Glock 17 just might be your best choice of the weapons you have at this time. It could be that you will want two or three guns planted around the house, within easy reach, but you have to think about the kids, and safety.

I do like the idea of a Double Action Revolver for a woman or anyone not into guns. And I like it even better if the hammer is bobbed or enclosed. That way there is no operating device to manipulate, or a hammer to cock or uncock after the crisis is over, you just pull the trigger or you don't, and once proven to be reliable, the revolver is the most foolproof, but also the simplest to fire (kids to consider again)

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:18 am

As posted, radio on all day, cell in pocket.

Get to a gun store ASAP, and buy a box of low recoil 12ga whatever - at inside-the-home distances ANY size shot will blow a fist-size hole into whomever.

Have her practice holding it for shooting/racking (empty - double check first) with the butt under her arm or against a hip.

FWIW, I've installed steel doors with double deadbolt locks that have lockplate screws which extend into the door framing studs, which I expect will delay thugs long enough fo me to react effectively.

.

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:02 am

Lastmohecken wrote:I do like the idea of a Double Action Revolver for a woman or anyone not into guns. And I like it even better if the hammer is bobbed or enclosed. That way there is no operating device to manipulate, or a hammer to cock or uncock after the crisis is over, you just pull the trigger or you don't, and once proven to be reliable, the revolver is the most foolproof, but also the simplest to fire (kids to consider again)

The so-called "grandma's gun" of my youth (an S&W Safety Hammerless or equivalent) was, IMO, actually a pretty good idea in its day, and something along those lines is not a bad choice for contemporary "grandmas" - like my wife - and anyone in general who isn't likely to shoot as much as the rest of us. I - and note that personal pronoun - decided that the spurless SP101 we had previously bought for the Mrs. was "too few, too weak, too... whatever" for today. Being all wise, I decided that because of the increasingly violent demographics in our community, a double-stack semi auto was a better answer for her needs... and totally disregarded the old but still valid trope that goes something like: "get the easiest one to use in the biggest caliber that can be tolerated." My wisdom was not all I'd have liked it to be...

Despite an odd, almost genetic predisposition to dislike revolvers, my wife simply has more confidence in that 2" Ruger - and she really does handle it better in every way - than she does a semi auto, and the CTC laser grip on it has probably done more to demonstrate the importance of trigger control than every lesson she's ever had, added up and multiplied by ten.

(In other words, "a lot.")

A borrowed GP-100 showed us that the bigger gun was not, in her case, a better gun; that little 101 actually suits her better as a defense piece than all of my "theoretically superior" choices. In a nutshell, I was once again reminded why so many men used to buy "smallish" revolvers for use by themselves and other family members.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:07 am

There is no doubt(to me)with what you require.(especially considering the wife)
The GLOCK!

Have her take a self defense course(specificly related to firearms)--most emphasis on handguns.
Check with your State Police. (Usually they are very cheap/and very good) My wife took it(in Pa.)Awesome!

They do a really good job teaching them how to shield the gun/when to act/when not/Legal aspects etc.(gotta know/not think ? if time ever comes. Too many times it can be an intruder already in the home(wife just THINKS she hears a LITTLE something(doesn't always have a loud glass breaking effect like on TV)and a women just verifying (maybe)an issue (with a 40" long gun)might be at a much greater disadvavntage than a tight tucked in handgun(w/30+rds)thats where the course comes in(also when to call/when to remain in room corner/when to investigate??????? Though mainly your own God given instinct when its not just the cat/dog kncking over something??????

I have learned----???????????------there is just something about someone (not related)teaching someone.
Case in point------Teaching wife/daughter Martial Arts----think they would be thrilled and listen to my teaching(??so/so)

Someone else they don't know---------------(all ears)

Go with two Glocks(yours/hers)---each side of the bed!

Best thing first-----A GOOD WATCH DOG INSIDE YOUR HOME! (EVEN TWO)

Be safe!

ps-------------When you/wife/both etc. go the bed at night(SET THE REMOTE CAR KEYS)ON NIGHT STAND BESIDES (YOU/HER etc.)while also grabbing gun.

IN THE EVENT OF A SUSPECTED ODD OCCURANCE (HIT/HOLD THE ALARM)it will scare whoever off/wake neighbors to investigate if you have neighbors and put things heading in your favor.

Same when say coming/going through a parking lot to store(have remote IN ONE HAND/GUN AT THE READY)if anything going down(HIT ALARM)

JMHO

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:39 am

I would lean towards a 20ga actually. If you do use a 12ga, try and find the low recoil loads. An alarm system is a great idea. Goblins will probably go next door instead of breaking in your door, if they know a security system is in use

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:50 am

While I, also, live in a "good" neighborhood, I had to deal with something similar. No direct threat, but I was working rotating shift which left the wife and kids alone at night quite often. What I came up with does take sometime to implement, but as you take each step the likelyhood that your wife will ever "need" a firearm decreases.

First, layer your defenses. The whole idea is to "keep them outside". What order you put them in really depends on your individual situation, so I'll just start outside and work in.

Get a fence or wall around your property if you don't have one. I'm not talking something out of Stalag 13. But, a reasonably high (check codes, our front is limited to 4' for fire/paramedic access) and you can make it very decorative. Have locks for the gates, including a driveway gate (I eventually ended up with an electric opener on the gate, but that's costly). This puts you on a very good footing with regards to some of the legal issues (you've done what you can to keep them off your property.

Install exterior lighting. The lighting should be operated dusk til dawn by sensors, and install a few really bright ones that can be controlled from inside. Todays remote operated switches weren't available back then but take advantage of them.

I couldn't have a dog because my youngest was allergic (he out grew that interestingly enough). But, while they didn't have them when my kids were young, there are "barking dog alarms". These can be set off by either sensors or remotely. I know some crooks won't be fooled, but even if they aren't, they've got to figure you know they are about, and they don't want that.

A monitored alarm with "panic" buttons through out the house. They don't stop anyone, but they create lots of noise, and you should have someone sending help without having to do anything. Just remember monitoring companies hire minimum wage folks for this part of their business. So as mentioned, keep the cell phone handy.

Secure your doors and windows. Since I have lots of wrought iron on my exterior fence, a wroght iron security screen door just looks like a decorative accent. But, install solid wood (heck there are even very decorative steel door today) that are propery mounted with long screws and security hinges. Yes, a sledge hammer can eventually break through, but that takes time and makes noise. Both time and noise are your allies.

Windows can be a bit more tricky. If you can, plant thorny bushes below your windows. Hey, this one goes back to dawn of man. Now I hate the look of bars, while properly installed, they work, I don't want my house to look like a jail. I installed (and they are spendy) new windows with security shutters. Get the aluminum ones if you go this route, not the plastic. When they are up, no one knows they are there. They can be down and slotted and allow some ventillation. And down, they are going to need some pretty stout tools to get thru. Time and noise again.

Inside, is different for each house. Mines longer and narrower with the front being where they kitchen, dinning room, living room and family room are. Going down the hall, there are bedrooms and bathrooms off the hall with the master at the end that takes the entire width of the house. I installed a solid door on the entrance to the hall that's secured with a deadbolt (mostly for night use). Again time and noise.

The boy's rooms were toward the front of the hall, not ideal, but by the time anyone got to the hall, my wife should have had plenty of time to get them to the master. I hardend the master suite.

Again, good solid properly mounted door. And something most folks don't think about is that the sheetrock used in most homes is very easy to kick thru. Yea, the studs are fairly close together, but are you going to bet you get a fat intruder? I removed the sheetrock on the exterior of the interion bedroom walls and installed 3/8" plywood before reinstalling the sheetrock. Why the exterior, well it's harder to kick it in from the outside than if it were mounted on the inside of the wall.

I also installed some switches in the bedroom that allowed her to turn on lighting throughout the house.

Time, light and noise are your friend!

"IF" anyone ever got thru all of that, then my wife had her choice of firearms available. Her choice was a 20ga semi auto. Plenty big enough to deal with an intruder, yet with lower recoil she could handle well.

But like I said, the whole idea is to KEEP THEM OUTSIDE!.

The good thing about most of this is that it also makes your house harder to get into when you aren't home. Let's face it, unless you're dealing with someone who specifically target you and yours, a thief is going to realize your house is a "hard target" an move on to a neighbor's house. I know it sounds kind of cold, but your neighbors have the same opportunity to harden their homes.

The good thing about what I did is that it is mostly "invisible". My house doesn't look like a fortress, yet, most thieves do recognize that they won't simply walk in and take what they want.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:55 am

Re the OP:

The AR15 and the Glock. No question. These are battle proven to be easily used by the stupidest grunts on the team as well as the most elite.

Get her some training - not by you!

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:10 am

This is a multi-layered question and answer.

What "I" would pick and you might pick probably isn't what she would pick.

First:

Layered defense. Thorny bushes under the windows (roses work). Fences if you don't have one for the yard. Gravel under windows or along paths works too (makes noise). For night time, motion sensor lights.

Front door: If it's got glass in it, replace it. Ideally, with a steel core or solid steel door in a steel doorframe. They might sledge it, but it's going to take a while compared to a normal door.
Back door: see front door.

Dogs: small dogs that are trained make a good deterrent. They won't gnaw your leg off but they'll work as a kid friendly alarm. I have a 9 lb Pomeranian who thinks he's a 30 lb Rottweiler, and he works as an alarm very, very well while remaining friendly.

Guns: I have a preference for the AR since I've trained on one for years.
Low recoil, lots of rounds, and with the correct ammo (softpoint or JHP) they penetrate less than anything else out there including pistols while remaining lethal.

Shotguns are an option, a 12 gauge with low recoil loads actually kicks less than most 20 gauge shotguns. They can be jammed due to a short stroke though, so like with the AR, training is necessary.

A Glock 17 with a spare mag is about the most idiotproof option there is even over a .38 (having grown up with DA revolvers). Reloading is one big stick and a slide yank over six rounds into six holes, and working the slide is a technique, not a strength issue. Trigger is also lighter and the gun has 18 rounds onboard.

Leveractions can certainly work. My grandmother, now deceased, who never shot a gun in her life I am aware of, nearly terminated a robber with extreme prejudice from about four feet away using grandpa's Winchester 94. She wasn't dumb, and she knew how to load a couple rounds and crank a lever. He got the idea and exited stage right without any shots fired, but again, TRAINING is the key.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:18 am

Lots of good info here:

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/792 ... ns-learned

http://www.peakprosperity.com/forum/def ... read/19952

Pay attention to Aaron Moyer and thc0655s posts

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:55 am

Tycer wrote:Re the OP:

The AR15 and the Glock. No question. These are battle proven to be easily used by the stupidest grunts on the team as well as the most elite.

Get her some training - not by you!

I agree with the Not By You training. Wives respond better to training by someone they don't know. If you train her, she will be thinking about too many other things to learn. My son is the same way with firearms. I couldn't get him to shoot anywhere near the target. 86er taught him for about 10 minutes, and now he is hitting skeet well enough that he wants to go Pheasant hunting this fall. For the AR15, get the frangible ammo, and try it at the range. If it hits within 1 to 2 inches at the range, that will be just fine for 20 feet or less in the house shots. Also, your AR might not feed the frangible ammo, and then it might. You only know if you have taken it to the range. If the glock fits her, use it also. Leave it loaded and in a place she can get to it. As a kid, I knew my Dad's firearms were loaded, and that if I touched them, I would not be able to sit for a week. I also got to shoot them on occasion, so there wasn't too much mystery there. The first time I touched my Dad's guns without him home, I was 21, and responsible enough to unload it first, double check that it was empty, and then look at it. All 3 of my brothers and my sister were the same way. Dad never taught Mom to shoot, but Aunt Vida did, and when she wants to, Mom can shoot well. There is not a simple answer here, but I have seen a trainload of good advice. Sift through what you can do, get what works, and have your Wife practice.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:12 pm

I'll add that while all the guns you mention can be worked in a home defense situation, the limited amount of magazine capacity and the need for two hands to load severely limits the usefulness or ease of reloading in a situation where multiple targets are the norm. In daytime home invasions, the fearlessness of the intruders is bolstered by the fact that there are usually more than one intruder/attacker/backup.

Full capacity box mag with backups for me please.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:31 pm

Home security is a major concern of mine these days due to where I live. Here are my thoughts;

1. I would not fire a rifle of any caliber in a residential neighorhood. To much chance of hitting the wrong people.

2. There, for a handgun, shotgun or both is the way to go.

3. I choose both.

I have a Glock 17 with multiple loaded magazines close at hand including one of the long 32 round jobbies.

I have an Ithaca Police Special 12 Ga. pump close at hand loaded with Federal "tactical" buckshot. Tactical means low recoil.

This is just my opinion.

I am now 70 years old and long past my running, rolling and fighting days. My plan is to shoot and keep shooting until one or both of us are dead and/or the bad guy runs away. I am willing to bet, the bad guy is more afraid of dying than I am. I will slug it out with guns it that is what he wants. I still shoot handguns in weekly competition so I am reasonably up to speed on that part of life.

I am never more than arms reach from a loaded firearm and never answer the door without a loaded Glock in my shooting hand, behind my back. That is just the way it is.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:36 pm

Charles wrote:Home security is a major concern of mine these days due to where I live. Here are my thoughts;

1. I would not fire a rifle of any caliber in a residential neighorhood. To much chance of hitting the wrong people.

2. There, for a handgun, shotgun or both is the way to go.

3. I choose both.

I have a Glock 17 with multiple loaded magazines close at hand including one of the long 32 round jobbies.

I have an Ithaca Police Special 12 Ga. pump close at hand loaded with Federal "tactical" buckshot. Tactical means low recoil.

This is just my opinion.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

Your theory tested.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Way to much stuff there for me to wade through trying to find your point. Tell me which one.

My house is made from concrete block (exterior and interior walls) so I am not worred about bullets going through walls. If there is a gun fight there is a good chance it will be in the doorway with them coming in. I am concerned about rifle rounds going out the front door or window. The range is likely going to be to short to deploy a rifle with ease. Even a shotgun is iffy in that regard. I keep the shotgun beside my bed, if there is chance to grab it with an intruder in the house. I am thinking the pelosi is going to hit the fan at two or three feet. Home invasion is typical down here.

I don't want to survive this things and spend the rest of my life as the Defendant is a series of law suits. I realize that pistol rounds or buckshot could hit somebody through the door as well, but you can only minimize the risk and you cannot eliminate it.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:22 pm

70% of Home Invasions are done by the odds it is someone (you "some how" KNOW)in some way.
Unless it is YOUR Family(even then if you got a crack head kid)??? Not telling anyone sh## about anything pertaining to your actual security setup is well advised.
Even those starting the break-in rumor(or fact)it is possible "you think friends/neighbors" its OK-----Maybe not.

Maybe where I live (it's the redneck thing)but I have found that if it gets around someone breaking into YOUR HOME whether you catch em/they get caught later-------They better fear you----------WORKS!

Having a Rep of being a hard a## and NOT the person to screw over-------------WORKS----in many circumstances.

Remember------70% somehow know you(go with the odds)---if they think------------Ain't worth screwing with him---Works probably 70% of the time.

Still,sounds like you live in a plush area so you can't do what I do-------------so, BIG DOG(that has a good smeller)Rottie works---Bad A## Rep(you and dog)helps-----and not trusting many------helps

Not trying to spout off as a bad a## but honestly people(most people)have some common sense(even if little)most of the time they will choose a safer/easier target cause they know if they even later get involved/caught---then ?????????? .(but not always,it still could happen)

But (more than not)Wolves go for the sheep before they pick the tough old Billy(or young if he's big enough)!

Good way to start (the cleaning)park you car about 15ft from the sidewalk along your home in the driveway-----leave a camcorder case(can be old camera in it)on top of your closed trunk lid-----in plain view (have a plot cam snapping a shot every 10 seconds
Sit inside your non-lit home(that they can't see you)-------------and watch.
Start weeding em out!
If a good neighbor walks up and reports it----just say leave it there a friend will be picking it up

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:01 pm

Charles wrote:Way to much stuff there for me to wade through trying to find your point. Tell me which one.

My house is made from concrete block (exterior and interior walls) so I am not worred about bullets going through walls. If there is a gun fight there is a good chance it will be in the doorway with them coming in. I am concerned about rifle rounds going out the front door or window. The range is likely going to be to short to deploy a rifle with ease. Even a shotgun is iffy in that regard. I keep the shotgun beside my bed, if there is chance to grab it with an intruder in the house. I am thinking the pelosi is going to hit the fan at two or three feet. Home invasion is typical down here.

I don't want to survive this things and spend the rest of my life as the Defendant is a series of law suits. I realize that pistol rounds or buckshot could hit somebody through the door as well, but you can only minimize the risk and you cannot eliminate it.

I thought you were worried about wall penetration. Moot point as you are not.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:12 pm

Blah blah, over-peneration, blah, lots of rounds, blah.

Recommend either a revolver or minor gauge shotty. Neither require substantial manipulation to operate and both have the advantage of easily clearing ammunition malfunctions. If you go in for the judge line by Taurus, you can get both

Barring these, a reliable levergun will work as well. It's hard to screw up any of these.

Advise against:

An auto loader of any sort as an HD weapon for 'casual' users. A laser sight can mitigate most need to actual aim, but it takes time and effort to get used to manipulating it. Magazine, charge, laser, potential to jam, clearing procedures. If the users- and I mean everybody -can't take the time to become actually proficient, then stay way.

While safety will take priority over hearing, have you ever fired a "high performance" rifle round in doors without hearing protection? 45acp left my ears ringing. 223/5.56 will do a lot worse. If the entrance is as abrupt as you say, i wouldn't bank on time to grab those handy muffs.

You don't need a 12 gauge. While they're sexy, plentiful, cheap and will undoubtedly do the job, they're also heavy and have stout recoil. YMMV, but my wife hated a 12g. 20 or 410 will do the job. You need something everybody can operate. Hell, even a double barrel is more than likely enough.

Short of zombie bear black ops ninjas invading your home, 20-30 round mags are frankly overkill. Yes, more is better and there's nothing wrong with it if you have a mission that calls for it, but 99.9% of home invasions won't and 50% of all statistics are made up.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:50 pm

YAAAY Panzercat!... +1

OK.... here's the skinny IMO...

IT'S NOT YOUR DECISION.

It's SWMBO's decision.

In my case, it means... no guns.

She is not and will not be comfortable handling them. After almost 20years of trying, it ain't gonna happen.

OTOH, she's scary with a TAZER and OC (and I won't talk about the kitchen knives...)

LET HER DECIDE.

Yes, it will "take longer", but it will actually "take". And that's the important bit.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

I would say out of those choices the AR is the best decision. It is very loud indoors but they all are. You can keep the mag out for kid safety but she can slam it in any time. Hits from a 223 are decisive and the carbine is easier to hit with than the pistols. Got a dog? Just need to know when to get the rifle. The 223 is not bad for overpenetration.

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:04 pm

I like the handguns because you can move them where you are working yet keep them unobtrusive to the kids or visitors. One on each end of the house. Move them with you througout the day. May sound funny but, one in kitchen when cooking B, L or D, take it to the bathroom with you. Back to the home office. The other in a bedroom, upstairs, whatever the other half of your house is. This is in case you or whomever didnt bring the other gun with them when they moved. Another one is close by and ready. Also, wherever a room with a phone, cell reception and a lock on the door should have a gun there and this could possibly be a place for one of the handguns but maybe supplemented with a rifle too.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:17 pm

Speaking of dogs..I have an 11 pound Pekinese named Whitman who sleeps with me and seldom leaves my side. He hears what I cannot hear, and nobody gets anywhere near the house without him alerting. Any sound that is out of the ordinary puts him on full barking alert.

He would not be worth spit in a fight, but nobody is going to put the sneak on me, as long as he is with me. I like that very much.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:22 pm

Charles wrote:Speaking of dogs..I have an 11 pound Pekinese named Whitman who sleeps with me and seldom leaves my side. He hears what I cannot hear, and nobody gets anywhere near the house without him alerting. Any sound that is out of the ordinary puts him on full barking alert.

He would not be worth spit in a fight, but nobody is going to put the sneak on me, as long as he is with me. I like that very much.

We'll call him... TRIPWIRE

sharps1863 · Post by **sharps1863** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:26 pm

Unless your wife is going to carry one of these guns around the house with her every where she goes. They are not going to do her a bit of good. Neighborhood robberies such as this are either like someone else stated an neighbor or a neighbors drug abusing child or someone you know. Then it could be someone that has cased the neighborhood and watched when people come and go.
If you are that concerned get an alarm system installed. If they kick the door and the alarm goes off they are not going to enter the house, but high tail it out of there Hopefully. Now for the weapons you have.
1- Stevens Pump 9 shot I'm guessing 20 inch barrel. If your wife is petite. Too much gun. But it does have that intimidation factor. Something about racking the slide on a .12 ga
2- AR-15 better choice than the shotgun if you have it accessible and if she knows how to handle it.
3- Rossi 92- My 2nd choice for inside the house, Because I don't own an AR.Loaded with 250 grain Silvertips it would stop a robber in his tracks. Easy to learn to shoot. Not as quick to reload but I think 10 rounds would be enough.
3-Glock 17 9mm- Good choice but still your wife needs to be comfortable shooting it. Again 17 rounds is plenty. But If they are dumb enough to stick around after being shot at that many times. Make sure your wife can do a mag change.
4- 1911- would not even consider it for my wife, 1st choice for myself, I would say to much kick.And it would have to be carried Cocked and locked to be effective. Would she be comfortable doing that
But Let her shoot them all and let her pick and then practice only with that weapon until she knows it and can shot it, how it works, how to reload and how to clear a malfunction
The last big question is, could your wife shoot someone. If she cannot pull the trigger on another human being, all the guns in the world will not do her any good. Big Difference shooting at targets and shooting somebody.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:35 pm

1911s can and are shot by smaller females comfortably even when some 9mm's can't be.

My other half is 5'4 and 160lbs, ex Army and ex cop, she handles a 1911 easily.

Various other females i've known in her size range also run 1911s better than they do most other pistols, because they're slim. .45s don't kick nearly as bad as a .40, they do more of a roll in the hand.

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:52 pm

gundownunder wrote:If you have any doubts about the usefulness of the 38 spl, ask John Lennon what he thinks they can do.

Actually, Lennon was shot with a .44 special Bull Dog.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:10 am

Just an idea to slow them down but I'd go to the hardware store and see what you can get to re-enforce you doors.It is pretty common for house doors to be hung in soft wood frames with short screws, replace those with some that are much longer and go into the frame of the house.Also there are plates that fit around the lock area-may not stop them but could give you more time.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:30 am

the 12ga for sure with reduced recoil loads something like 00

then put a laser sight on it like this one:

http://www.jgsales.com/laser-sight-for- ... -1767.html

this makes the gun a hip shot proposition, and takes the worry out of missing.

home invasions in my local newspapers usually involve multiple armed invaders.
the trench gun WITH laser seems like the ideal response to me.

for the other worry, perps inside when you enter, that's what hand guns are for.

but for already inside and needing help NOW, the 12ga is the best, IMO.

there are barrel mount lasers if the mag plug ones won't fit.

regards,

Grizz

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:07 am

I'm a big beleiver in pump shotguns for HD, but not for someone with limited shooting experience. Between my wife, my SIL, my 3 daughters and a friend's daughter I've yet to see one that couldn't handle a handgun better than a long gun to start with. Note: I'm talking petite novice shooters and for them long guns can be very unwieldy. Slow to get into action, slow to manipulate, so to work the action, etc etc. You go take a petite novice out and hand em a shotgun and see how awkward they are with it. And it's dang hard to get em comfortable with it without boat loads of ammo. Let her pick a handgun, pretty much any reliable handgun, have her a good spot(s) in the house to hole up with her phone if anything goes down and get her to the range.

Dogs: I hear where everyone is coming from with the dogs. I bought my first dog exactly one day after I moved out of the folk's place and have had anywhere from one to 4 at the same time ever since. Being said, they aren't for everybody and are a commitment/responsibility. I can safely say this, once the kids are gone I won't have any more dogs. When I want to pack up and go I want to pack up and go and not worry about what to do with the stupid mutt.

The MO of the OP's bad guys is not a new one and is about the most used around here. Being in the country they knock on the door and ask for directions to someones house (a fake someone) if the door is answered. If no one answers than they bust in. If someone tries pulling that with me I'm getting a license plate and callin the sheriff. Recommend everyone else do the same. Better safe than sorry.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:04 am

What i personally use for HD is irrelevant because i have a different situation ( i hope my large outside dogs alert me to an intruder's presence before they break in ---but my home layout is such that if i hear glass breaking in the front , i can be on my back patio in seconds ---if possible, i would rather confront or "engage" or evade from the outside --- plus , if they make it inside and i make it out -- they are trapped unless they brought a squad. This is all well and good unless it is my bedroom door/window that they are trying to break in , but i designed the place with this contingency in mind, and to make the back bedroom/patio door look as unappealing as possible -- my saferoom is also on my back patio just outside my back bedroom door ----
that is another option if circumstances are right ----given a choice, i would rather avoid a gunfight if i could and few people are going to be able to get in a saferoom without equipment if its built to spec
---- you may not need a tornado proof saferoom in your area, but you could fortify a couple of large closets in the house to be "panic rooms" of sorts with steel door frames and triple deadbolts-- plus switches inside to activate some loud siren type horns outside if your alarm system has not gone off otherwise

With that said, and my plan being to engage from the outside if at all possible, i use rifles --- favorite is an AR-15 for capacity and ease of use, but since i love leverguns, i oftentimes have one of those handy . I like my little MArlin .44 Mag for this as it also holds plenty of cartridges (9)

All that aside, -- if i were to pick an "ideal" HD firearm, it would still be an AR-15, but if i thought i would ever have to shoot it inside the house , i would pick the 9mm --- and i would get a real Colt 9mm AR-- they are relatively common- and i wouldnt trust my wife's life to one of my homebuilt rigs.
USe the stock 9mm Colt upper while you are waiting for the paperwork for your short barreled upper with silencer to come back -- a 10.5" AR with a can on it will be a little longer than the stock 16" barrel carbine, but not by much ---- For that matter, if you put a can on it, the 5.56/223 would be much more agreeable indoors as well ---- but as i mentioned, might use a stock 9mm carbine until the paperwork goes through ----
-- The 9mm carbine is much quieter than the 223 , or a 9mm pistol --- you would hate to lose your hearing for life due to a 15 second panic situation (although it is better to be deaf than dead --- if you can afford to buy the best, you may as well) --- teaching the proper use of a single point sling minimizes the prospects of someone disarming you by grabbing the barrel and jerking the gun out of your hands

--- And , AR-15's are nice, but its also not supremely practical to be chopping a salad in the kitchen with an AR-15 right by your side , so pistols have their place --- and i like Glocks, but i would dare say that Glocks have no place around novice shooters. Far better to use a gun that has a safety -- leaving a Glock chambered and sitting in a drawer is a no-no, and if you leave it unchambered, its still a 2 handed operation to rack the slide, something a woman shooter may 1) forget in a panic situation or 2) short stroke it or 3) not have the strength to rack the thing (some women complain about this) --- teaching someone how to flick off a safety may be better than teaching her how to deal with a Glock ----
Oh ........... and all these issues are easilly avoided by having a couple of 38/357's instead of semi-autos. True, there's no way to silence a .38, but its an effective platform that has been used for decades by both experts and beginners alike (same as the AR-15)

Panic Rooms , reinforced doors, Klaxon horns outside, etc etc etc all cost money and a bit of effort . It sounds like you have a nice place though - what's another 5k when it comes to peace of mind and protection ?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:44 pm

Alarm company signs outside, even if you have no alarm, make them think twice.

That laser is unlikely to survive more than a couple rounds of recoil......and lasers DO require training to use.

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Short-barreled 12ga pump gun with a full tube of 000 buck.

Instant DRT bad guy.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:26 pm

Bridgett just had a great blog on home security this week. Seems a common thread in thought.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:33 am

Knowing personally a cop who put four rounds of 00 Buck center mass into a bad guy (not on drugs or anything else) who finally went down..... it's not always instant.

Some people just really don't want to stop. Shoot till they're on the ground, then reload and make sure they're not moving for a weapon.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:15 am

four rounds of 00 Buck center mass into a bad guy

this is why center mass is a hunting shot, not a defense shot.

a face full of 00 will produce quicker results, aim for the throat, bye bye.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:17 am

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

I guess I should have stated that the options I presented were the only choices available to us.

I showed her the 12, the AR and 92....she instinctively knew how to hold and use the '92 and felt the most comfortable with it. Without any instruction!

It was a proud moment for me....I think I am going to get her hooked as well as my kids!

So, she now has a '92 with 10 rounds of .45LC, and 40 more in the ready. She is set.

She also has a Glock 26 with two mags of Hornady CD, so I am comfortable now.