Strange Windage Variations On Model 88

[Blaine]

I alluded to a windage issue when I tried to zero the new to me 88 in 284. This was with a newly mounted VXIII 1.5x5...it was a good solid mount with LocTite on the base, and good 30mm Burris Rings torqued properly. Using factory 150 Winchester ammo, the first couple shots were about 2 feet wide. I twisted the heck out of the windage adjustment, and got to about a foot left, then a bullseye, and two 4-6 inches to the left. I let the bbl get cold, and shot three, one close to the bull, and two to the left 3-5 inches or so.....I think I'll take the scope off and see what it does with the irons, and if shoots ok, should I send the scope back to Leupold?? Could the windage adjustment that was so far to the left been a problem? I'm not sure I "tapped" in the adjustments after I made them, and I've heard that makes a difference. I hardly ever scope my rifles, and the two that have them were absolutely no problem to zero. I'm a decent shot, and I don't think I would have had that much windage difference from my shooting. Something is wrong. Any ideas that you guys can think of. I'll go back to the range Sunday and try out a few things.....

[geobru]

Blaine,
First thing I'd try is shooting the irons. I posted some shooting I did with a 9422 mag and scope a while back. I shot all over the place with the scope and shot a nice tight group with the iron sights. Its the first time I have had a bad scope, but if the scope is bad, shooting the irons will expose it right away.

Good luck!

[Blaine]

Blaine,
First thing I'd try is shooting the irons. I posted some shooting I did with a 9422 mag and scope a while back. I shot all over the place with the scope and shot a nice tight group with the iron sights. Its the first time I have had a bad scope, but if the scope is bad, shooting the irons will expose it right away.

Good luck!

That makes all the sense in the world I know the base/rings are good and solid, so, I'll send the scope back in and see if there is something wrong with the internals of it. Leupold will make it good.

[Old Shatterhand]

Check the barrel if it has stock contact. The barrel should only bear in front on the reciever and at the fore end tip on about ½". The rest of it should be free-floated between the receiver rest point and the tip rest, according to the Winchester shop manual. (Service notes) It could be checked with a piece of paper, which should run free between fore end and barrel. If not, one had to scrape some wood away.

As I have been at work a bit with a new scope mount and a new scope on my M88, I also controlled the bedding. Earlier in summer I had some accuracy problems with 4-6" patterns, disattached the old Weaver K-4 and shot with the irons without improving accuracy. Now I have a Swarovski 6x42 in a swing mount. Having un-stocked the action, I found black marks on the wood under the barrel. I consulted the shop manual and scraped the wood free. I also made an epoxy bedding at the fore end tip as a pressure point.

Now I wish I could say, that this was successfull, but I can't at the moment as I haven't been able to bring the rifle to the range. If it stops raining soon, I'll take it there and I'll let you know if it helped.

Pete

[Blaine]

Thanks, Shatterhand...

[geobru]

Blaine,
Did you get a chance to shoot it with irons today?

[Blaine]

Blaine,
Did you get a chance to shoot it with irons today?

No.....I didn't make it out to the range

[SteveR]

I alluded to a windage issue when I tried to zero the new to me 88 in 284. This was with a newly mounted VXIII 1.5x5...it was a good solid mount with LocTite on the base, and good 30mm Burris Rings torqued properly. Using factory 150 Winchester ammo, the first couple shots were about 2 feet wide. I twisted the heck out of the windage adjustment, and got to about a foot left, then a bullseye, and two 4-6 inches to the left. I let the bbl get cold, and shot three, one close to the bull, and two to the left 3-5 inches or so.....I think I'll take the scope off and see what it does with the irons, and if shoots ok, should I send the scope back to Leupold?? Could the windage adjustment that was so far to the left been a problem? I'm not sure I "tapped" in the adjustments after I made them, and I've heard that makes a difference. I hardly ever scope my rifles, and the two that have them were absolutely no problem to zero. I'm a decent shot, and I don't think I would have had that much windage difference from my shooting. Something is wrong. Any ideas that you guys can think of. I'll go back to the range Sunday and try out a few things.....

I think the ring size should be 1 inch and not 30mm.

Can you bore sight it first?

Steve

[Blaine]

I alluded to a windage issue when I tried to zero the new to me 88 in 284. This was with a newly mounted VXIII 1.5x5...it was a good solid mount with LocTite on the base, and good 30mm Burris Rings torqued properly. Using factory 150 Winchester ammo, the first couple shots were about 2 feet wide. I twisted the heck out of the windage adjustment, and got to about a foot left, then a bullseye, and two 4-6 inches to the left. I let the bbl get cold, and shot three, one close to the bull, and two to the left 3-5 inches or so.....I think I'll take the scope off and see what it does with the irons, and if shoots ok, should I send the scope back to Leupold?? Could the windage adjustment that was so far to the left been a problem? I'm not sure I "tapped" in the adjustments after I made them, and I've heard that makes a difference. I hardly ever scope my rifles, and the two that have them were absolutely no problem to zero. I'm a decent shot, and I don't think I would have had that much windage difference from my shooting. Something is wrong. Any ideas that you guys can think of. I'll go back to the range Sunday and try out a few things.....

I think the ring size should be 1 inch and not 30mm.

Can you bore sight it first?

Steve

It's a 30mm scope.

[SteveR]

I alluded to a windage issue when I tried to zero the new to me 88 in 284. This was with a newly mounted VXIII 1.5x5...it was a good solid mount with LocTite on the base, and good 30mm Burris Rings torqued properly. Using factory 150 Winchester ammo, the first couple shots were about 2 feet wide. I twisted the heck out of the windage adjustment, and got to about a foot left, then a bullseye, and two 4-6 inches to the left. I let the bbl get cold, and shot three, one close to the bull, and two to the left 3-5 inches or so.....I think I'll take the scope off and see what it does with the irons, and if shoots ok, should I send the scope back to Leupold?? Could the windage adjustment that was so far to the left been a problem? I'm not sure I "tapped" in the adjustments after I made them, and I've heard that makes a difference. I hardly ever scope my rifles, and the two that have them were absolutely no problem to zero. I'm a decent shot, and I don't think I would have had that much windage difference from my shooting. Something is wrong. Any ideas that you guys can think of. I'll go back to the range Sunday and try out a few things.....

I think the ring size should be 1 inch and not 30mm.

Can you bore sight it first?

Steve

It's a 30mm scope.

Just trying to help. All the model Leupold scopes I saw are 1in tubes. But hey what do I know.

Steve

[Old Ironsights]

Not only shoot Irons, but try both 165s and 180s as well.

You never know. I've "heard" things about 88s liking 180s over lighter fare...

[Nath]

Not only shoot Irons, but try both 165s and 180s as well.

You never know. I've "heard" things about 88s liking 180s over lighter fare...

Would that be a 308 version old friend?

My money is on a stock/ bedding/ barrel channel issue.

Hope you get fixed B.

N.

[Old Ironsights]

Not only shoot Irons, but try both 165s and 180s as well.

You never know. I've "heard" things about 88s liking 180s over lighter fare...

Would that be a 308 version old friend?

My money is on a stock/ bedding/ barrel channel issue.

Hope you get fixed B.

N.

Yeah. .308. My Savage99 actually likes 180s better than 150s, but I make it work because I have thousands of 150s...

[Charles]

Taping the turrents after the caps are put back on is not a bad idea. I have know spings to not work properly, bu this is far from common.

I would look for an alignment issues somewhere.

1. Could be the bases are not straight on the rifle. That could be a base or receiver issue.
2. Could be the rings are not aligned straight and are bending the scope.
3. Could be (god forbid) the barrel is crooked in the receiver or the barrel is bent.

First thing I would do, is put another scope on it and see if that cures the situation. If it does, send the scope back. It not then look for an alignment issue and fix it.

[Blaine]

A sincere thanks for all the good suggestions.

[Hobie]

Sometimes the factory D&Ted holes are just enough off that they skew the mount and thus the scope. It doesn't take much at all to make a noticeable problem.

[Blaine]

Sometimes the factory D&Ted holes are just enough off that they skew the mount and thus the scope...

If it was shooting properly, though, the error would be in a reasonable small group...right? Not strung out horizontally.

[M. M. Wright]

Been thinking about this Blaine and it sounds like you may have a parallax problem. Set it solidly on bags and see if the reticle moves when you move your head/eye around. It should stay in one place. Parallax can be adjusted and your scope is generally set for 100 yards. Higher powered scopes generally have external parallax adjustment and I only have older model Leupolds so don't know how yours adjusts. I always tap the turrets or the scope tube after making adjustments because the innards may have some "stiction".

[Blaine]

Been thinking about this Blaine and it sounds like you may have a parallax problem. Set it solidly on bags and see if the reticle moves when you move your head/eye around. It should stay in one place. Parallax can be adjusted and your scope is generally set for 100 yards. Higher powered scopes generally have external parallax adjustment and I only have older model Leupolds so don't know how yours adjusts. I always tap the turrets or the scope tube after making adjustments because the innards may have some "stiction".

Do you think the parallax could account for 3-4 inches at 50 yards?

[Old Savage]

Send the scope back to Leupold.

[Old Savage]

Send the scope back to Leupold. But, try it on something else first.

[M. M. Wright]

Blaine,
Yes, parallax could easily cause that much deflection if it is not correctly adjusted. But, it should have been correct from the factory. And it should be correct at 100 for a big game scope. At 50 there could be a little but not that much. It has been my experience that most scope makers do not test, in any way their product before shipping. That's why I buy factory re-mans. Those have been through a re-build and have been tested for most possible manufacturing errors.
I once had a Bushnell, (one of their high end products) that had the ring which holds the cross wires come loose in it. One screw came completely out and rattling around inside. I know I shouldn't be so vindictive but I still won't use their product.

[Old Shatterhand]

Today I had my M88 to the range. Three shots series were fine - appr. 1" - but the pattern opened up when more shots were fired and the the barrel became hot.

Pete

[86er]

You probably dont want to hear this but I doubt it is the scope. A VX-III has dual opposing erector springs and dual channel lens brackets. That is on par with the most durable contruction in the industry - all of the high end scope companies use that technology. If it was blurry, did not change focus or did change focus with magnification I'd say its the scope right away. Did you lap the scope rings? Did you true the scope rings with an alignment guide? The easiest thing to do is bore sight (a laser bore sighter is easiest) to see if the scope will dial in to the bore. If you do not have enough movement in the scope, first bet is that the alignement with the bore is out. You can try different rings or use a shim. What this won't explain/compensate for is large groups on the target. Again, I'd be surprised if your scope reticle was not firmly fixed in the view. I'd rule out everything else first before jumping to the scope. Geoff Miller at Rigby USA is a M88 tinkerer and he's spent a lot of time tuning a number of them to be tack-drivers. While I do not know the details offhand, knowing that he sort of specialized in that tells me there are enough M88's to warrant "improvement" because they need it. Sometimes, but rarely if you use a different brand base from the rings the weaver slot will not have a flush, even fit or the twist in "redfield" or "leupold' connection will torque the scope. I agree that the easiest place to start is shooting open sights at the same range. Then, work your way through the scope connections and lastly the scope itself.

[Ben_Rumson]

There’s lots of M88 info here http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_in ... 88_100.htm
Man the M88 & the M100 sure went thru a lot of teething/changes

I snagged this little blurb there...
SCOPE MOUNT PROBLEMS: Another thing to look for would be if you are using Weaver top mount scope bases & rings. Originally Weaver stamped the word FRONT on the scope base. On a subsequent batch the word got erroneously placed on the rear. So after that they simply left it off. The reason for the word FRONT, was that the cross grooves for the ring takedown screw are not placed symmetrically, & are designed for placement of the bases to give ejection clearance of the cases at the front. IF you placed the base backwards & mount the scope rings like most people do with the take-down knob on the RH side, this knob would interfere with the empty case being ejected. The case mouth would hit the rear inside of the knob, & many times will cause the case to snap back into the ejection port area, ultimately causing a malfunction.
Hope this helps...

[Old Shatterhand]

Today I had my M88 to the range. Three shots series were fine - appr. 1" - but the pattern opened up when more shots were fired and the the barrel became hot.

Pete

Today morning I checked my scope with a mirror, and it was prettily out of center. (I put the scope's objective closely against the mirror and through the eyepiece I check the difference between the reticle as seen through the eyepiece and the reflexion of it in the mirror. The latter shows the true position of the reticle.)

So, supposedly in this case the rifle is not the issue. But the scope is. As the reticle is out of center, it will jump back by the recoil to a rest position. I was able to force the setting to the bull's eye, and the first and perhaps the second shot did hit correctly close to each other, but the following ones moved 4-5" to 45° up to the left, and the they hit pretty fine again. It is easy to set the scope sidewards with the support screws in the rear mount, but for the height, I have to shim the rear base.

Lack of accuracy is indeed interesting - one learn a lot about the shooting tools from working with it.

Pete

[SteveR]

The reason you are getting changes where the bullets are hitting is because something is moving with your aiming system,in this case a scope. So the question is what is moving, I am thinking against barrel heating and changing point of aim. My gut feeling is either the mount is moving under recoil or the scope is moving under recoil.

Since you are going to remove the scope for testing with the irons, look at the scope tube where it was held in by the rings, and see if there are any scratches to show it moved in the rings under recoil. Or there may be evidence of twisting from the recoil.

I like to put a ring of scotch tape around the scope tube, where it comes in contact with the rings to prevent scratching the tube. I think it helps hold it better also and prevent movement of the scope in the rings from recoil.

Next thing to look at is your mounts, I know you stated they were tight and you used locktite to keep them from coming loose, I found that shooting with new rings and scope, that first everything is put on snug-hand tight. Then I shoot it a few times to settle all the screws. Then I go back and re-tighten all the screws. I don't use locktite and have never had problems with screws coming loose. I have found that almost all the screws will need to be re-tightened after shooting the first time. The recoil helps to settle everything and after that a good re-tightening seems to hold everything.

You may want to buy a bore sighting kit, BSA has a cheap one like 35.00 dollars(was on sale recently) and it has arbors that are different caliber, you choose your caliber and put in the arbor in the end of the barrel and but the "target" on top, then look through your scope and you will see the "target" then you can adjust your scopes POA to the "target", and you will be on or very close when you go to the range.
http://www.bsaoptics.com/product.aspx?p ... ductID=111

Anyway the best way is let the barrel cool completely between shots. After you are sure you have it sighted in, then try shooting with the barrel hot.

Steve

[Blaine]

I'm going to shoot this weekend...I'll know more next Sunday evening. These are all really good ideas to consider.

[Old Shatterhand]

I'm going to shoot this weekend...I'll know more next Sunday evening. These are all really good ideas to consider.

How did your gun shoot?

Mine was to the range on sunday, and shot good enough at the paper moose. But I had it to range today, and still have problems with vertical stringing. The barrel is cleaned, the barrel free-floated and bedded at the fore end tip. A bit frustrating.

The M88 will stay in the cabinet at the moose season opening on monday. Luckily enough the M71 shoots well enough.

Pete

[Blaine]

I'm going to shoot this weekend...I'll know more next Sunday evening. These are all really good ideas to consider.

How did your gun shoot?

Mine was to the range on sunday, and shot good enough at the paper moose. But I had it to range today, and still have problems with vertical stringing. The barrel is cleaned, the barrel free-floated and bedded at the fore end tip. A bit frustrating.

The M88 will stay in the cabinet at the moose season opening on monday. Luckily enough the M71 shoots well enough.

Pete

The M88 is on the back burner. I shot and tweaked the old 94, the Guide Gun, and the M77 '06. I have a .444, and a Marlin 1894 44 Mag that I know how they shoot.....I'll play with the M88 next year. I'm in no hurry. If someone made me a decent offer, I'd 'splain the gun to them, and sell it w/o the scope.

[SteveR]

I'm going to shoot this weekend...I'll know more next Sunday evening. These are all really good ideas to consider.

How did your gun shoot?

Mine was to the range on sunday, and shot good enough at the paper moose. But I had it to range today, and still have problems with vertical stringing. The barrel is cleaned, the barrel free-floated and bedded at the fore end tip. A bit frustrating.

The M88 will stay in the cabinet at the moose season opening on monday. Luckily enough the M71 shoots well enough.

Pete

The M88 is on the back burner. I shot and tweaked the old 94, the Guide Gun, and the M77 '06. I have a .444, and a Marlin 1894 44 Mag that I know how they shoot.....I'll play with the M88 next year. I'm in no hurry. If someone made me a decent offer, I'd 'splain the gun to them, and sell it w/o the scope.

How much are you looking for? If you were to get rid of it?

Steve

[Blaine]

I'm going to shoot this weekend...I'll know more next Sunday evening. These are all really good ideas to consider.

How did your gun shoot?

Mine was to the range on sunday, and shot good enough at the paper moose. But I had it to range today, and still have problems with vertical stringing. The barrel is cleaned, the barrel free-floated and bedded at the fore end tip. A bit frustrating.

The M88 will stay in the cabinet at the moose season opening on monday. Luckily enough the M71 shoots well enough.

Pete

The M88 is on the back burner. I shot and tweaked the old 94, the Guide Gun, and the M77 '06. I have a .444, and a Marlin 1894 44 Mag that I know how they shoot.....I'll play with the M88 next year. I'm in no hurry. If someone made me a decent offer, I'd 'splain the gun to them, and sell it w/o the scope.

How much are you looking for? If you were to get rid of it?

Steve

First, I'd have to check that the guy I bought it from doesn't want it back.....I gave him first dibs.....I'd prolly start being persuaded in the 900 range and up....

[Old Shatterhand]

On my M88 I'm going to check the recoil block and how the action rests in the stock.

The way the barreled action is put into the stock can be the reason for climbing patterns. The rear of the action rests in the recoil block and the barrel is hold with the stock screw in the front part of the stock. At the tip of the stock there is a pressure point, and by tightening the stock screw, one will bow the barrel slightly domnwards. During the shooting the thin barrel gets hot and expands. This will increase the bow of the barrel and the patterns will climb and string vertically - just as most german drillings do. I wish that the stockscrew was placed nearer the action - 1" or 2" in front of it. Then the barrel could be free-floated and not put in tension.

Pete

[Old Savage]

You have hit on a key point particularly if someone had it out of the stock. The trigger block can also move. I put a small nail between the trigger block and the stock which significantly improved accuracy. It just slides in from the bottom. It was an experiment but I left it.

[Old Shatterhand]

You have hit on a key point particularly if someone had it out of the stock. The trigger block can also move. I put a small nail between the trigger block and the stock which significantly improved accuracy. It just slides in from the bottom. It was an experiment but I left it.

Thanks for your input! Checked the recoil block this afternoon, and there was a very slight play. I turned the stock bolt a little more than a quarter turn and now the block seems to fit tightly. I did not have to put a nail there, however.

The block in front of the magazine, which is dovetailed into the receiver was a bit offset, and was centered before a I assembled the rifle again.

In fact this rifle is both genially constructed and over-engineered, which makes trouble-shooting it a bit more difficult than a bolt rifle. But it has a charme of its own, and I like it.

Pete

[Old Savage]

The nail only acts as a spacer between the trigger block and the stock to keep it from moving. It isn't into anything. It was an experiment that worked and so I left it. Small black nail actually matched. I was amused to some extent. I suppose it could all be bedded if you were careful.