Fed a lie on the target they sent me

[jh45gun]

Well when I got my Rossi Ranch Hand Pistol back. (Mares Leg) they sent a target shot at 30 yards at a two inch bull with the aim point right at the bottom of the black bull. (Tested by Felix Flores) The group they said was 2 1/4 5 shot group. So today I went and shot it at a pop can at about 15 yards and was shooting over it. So I shot at a small clump of dirt on a sand bank around 30 yards and saw it was shooting at least a foot high. STILL!!!! Come back into town and went to the gun shop and they measured the front sight and it was .440. So I got a new Williams Fire Sight I am guessing it is the .538 sight listed in the book as it is marked 53 on the base and the sights in the 500 range goes from .500 to .538 to 570. I wanted a front Fiber Optic sight so that works for me. Price was 10.99 so That is livable in case I would have to go with the .570. I will not be out that much if it does not work. I hope this sight is high enough.

To clarify the target

The group was centered on the Target they sent it to me. They circled the group and measured it and they also indicated the POA was at the base of the two inch bull. Two holes were a half inch apart right below point of aim according to him. Two holes together just left of center and touching the center line if you draw a line through the center of the bull. 5th shot is between two and three o:clock just inside the bull.

The target has my serial number and Service order #. Target said Bench rested at 30 yards and is shooting to factory specs. I mean the group is good but no way was he holding where he said he was. Ammo was Winchester 225 grain. I am shooting 252 grain bullets that is lighter than that using WW. Now before some one says that it might make a difference and I know heavier bullets will shoot higher. I have shot factory 225 Federal ammo in this gun and it printed very close to my hand loads.

Like I said I hope this sight is high enough now.

[Mescalero]

I am not justifying it at all, but Felix's boss probably told him to pencil whip it to look good.
Felix likes putting food on the table for his family, so lying to the gringo ( whom he will never meet )
Is less damaging to him than the alternative.

[Marc]

How did Felix hold it and how did you hold it when you fired it? He must have held the gun down and kept it from climbing as much with recoil.

[AJMD429]

How did Felix hold it and how did you hold it when you fired it? He must have held the gun down and kept it from climbing as much with recoil.

Having shot some oddball guns over the years that included short-but-legal rifles, and 'Buntline' style handguns, and so on, I can say that the exact way the gun was rested and shot could lead to HUGE deviations in point-of-impact.

[Griff]

Oh come on now! We know that Felix is a professional and you... as the new owner, are just an amateur when it comes to shooting a Mare's Leg!

I'm sure that Felix's eyesight is nothing like Jack Elam's... But, he might be vertical-visually challenged.

[jh45gun]

Guys it was shooting high well over a foot when when I got it. I had filed the rear sight notch down a lot last fall just to get it to shoot where I was aiming. But as long as I had to send it in to get fixed for an unrelated problem I asked them to put a new rear sight on and get it shooting where you look. hopefully it will shoot better with the taller front sight. Now this would not be the first gun I ever had that had to be lowered all the way and not use the elevator on a rear sight with a elevator but this is the first on I ever had that shot so high from the factory. It seems Rossi has that reputation on their lever guns at least the 92s. I don't care that I had to buy a new front sight for it I wanted a fiber optic sight anyway. What I do care about is that they sent me what I feel is a bogus target telling me it was sighted in. I been shooting guns since I was 10. I am 61 now and I know how to shoot open sights. When it was shooting high last year I shot some Federal 225 ammo after I shot my reloads and they shot about as high, So I doubt Win 225 grain ammo would magically shoot a foot lower. I think ol felix saw it was shooting a foot + high and measured down put an other aiming point below this target and fired away and signed off on it.

By the way I was shooting it from the shoulder like a rifle with a take off butt pad on it so it was steady.

[J Miller]

Shooting a gun from the shoulder can allow the gun to shoot far different than from a bench rest. I've seen that many times.

I'll bet that's your explanation right there.

Joe

[Old Savage]

I would be surprised if two people did shoot it to the same point of aim. I don't think anyone was challenging your ability but different shooters just naturally hold guns differently with different pressures in the hold. Shooting a Mare's Leg seems it might be more like a carnival trick. Cue sticks and golf clubs have the same problem.

[jh45gun]

Well I will let you know when I shoot it with the new front sight. Since shooting high seems to be a problem with these guns it is just not a problem I have had and folks either put a peep sight on the back that replaces the safety that Steve's gunz sells or a higher front sight. I understand where it might be a bit different POI for different shooters but not a foot difference and since it was shooting high when I got it it is a sight issue. Lots of folks online have reported the Rossi 92s shooting high in the carbines and rifles too. The ranch hand is probably worse because of the short barrel and the taper of the barrel to the sights. Still you would think a gun company would have taken that into consideration and fixed the issue.

[jh45gun]

One thing folks have talked about at other forums is that yea the ammo might make some difference and how you hold the gun. Problem we have here is that it shoots high on the lowest setting of the elevator so there is no leeway to do any adjusting. I had a friend shoot the gun last fall and it shot high for him too and the same place I was shooting so that can take away it is just me shooting it high issue.

[Griff]

My earlier post wasn't to poke fun at you, or bellittle youur shooting skills... just a lame attempt pokin' fun @ Felix! But, I gotta ask as you give more details, did you ever fire it in its original configuration off a bench?

Changing out a buttstock can affect POI. Not saying it WILL, just saying it can. Any tube magazine gun has four possible points of contact with the barrel that can affect accuracy and POI. Forend, front & rear barrel bands and the magazine plug screw. I couldn't say why a shift in location from Brazil to the US would cause a change of POI, but I wouldn't rule out changes in wood density by moisture or drop thereof. My Rossi Short Rifle has had some major shrinkage.

When I sight in a new (to me), levergun, I shoot group just how I received it with known ammo. If there are any anomolies, I take everything magazine related off and shoot it like a single shot. Assembling and shooting will identify where the problem lay!

[jh45gun]

Griff I shot it in its original form off the bench when I first got it. It shot high and pretty much in the same place if I rested it on a rest, shot it out in front of me like a pistol or using my arm crossed in front of me for a rest or if I shot it from the shoulder. It just shot high no matter what. My removable butt stock pad is a piece of leather with a piece of rubber in it and some padding in front of that with a lace up arrangement on the bottom. That holds it in place a piece of 5 inch or maybe 6 inch black elastic band and velcro holds it in place tightly. I figure the higher front sight should do it.

[Washita]

Maybe the gun was fired from a machine rest (Ransom or similar.) No sights involved. If they use the same sights as on their rifles, it'll shoot high from recoil. I'd think all you need is a taller front sight.

[Model 52B]

I used to live in an area with two well known high end rifle makers. I won't mention them as they are both reputable companies that make very good rifles, but I'll use them to shed some light on the truth about test targets.

Both companies will charge you at least 3K for a rifle and will include a 3 shot within 1/2" at 100 yard test target to document the rifle's capability. Both of those companies have indoor ranges, that from time to time go down for cleaning or maintenance (ventilation fan/filter) issues. When that happens they'd send their staff to our club's outdoor range as it was located in a bend in a canyon and surrounded on both sides by trees, making wind a minimal factor. So...you'd from time to time find staff from those companies there shooting test targets for both new rifles and for rifles sent back in due to accuracy complaints.

Here's what you'd see:

A shooter using a front rest and rear bag shooting 3 shot groups at 100 yards with premium factory ammo (BHA or Federal usually). "Groups" is the operative word here as it seemed to take 2 or 3 groups to get the required 1/2" group.

Now, that's not "bad", as a rifle that can cough out a 3 shot 1/2" group at 100 yards in only 2 or 3 groups is still fairly accurate - probably a 1 MOA rifle on average. But that's the point. One 3 shot group out of 2 or 3 does not mean 1/2 MOA accuracy. Show me a 10 shot 1/2" group and I'll start to be impressed. Show me a 2 out of 3 10 shot groups that are 1/2" or less, and I'll be impressed enough to consider your rifle as being close to 1/2 MOA in accuracy.

More disturbingly, once the new rifles had all printed suitable targets, the shooter would start in on the returns that had been worked on at the factory. Some would print a suitable group in 2-3 groups. Most of the others would print a satisfactory group - eventually - with or without some tweaking on the stock screws to adjust torque. It's the "eventually" that's worrisome there as with enough shooting, most 1.5 or even 2.0 MOA rifles could probably deliver a 1/2" 3 shot group.

Everyone gets lucky now and then. As an example, there was a guy once who did a video indicating he could flip a coin 10 times and get heads every time. He actually did it on video, with only one cut away for effect, but it took him 9 hours of continuous flipping to get 10 in a row that he could then use in the video.

So, keep that in mind next time to see a test target or plan to spend more money on a rifle with an accuracy guarantee and a test target. From a reputable company it will in all cases mean the rifle always shot the test target and that it met the required specification, but it does not mean they did it on the first, or second or even third try, or that it will do it every time. I most cases the company knows the shooters buying the weapons are not capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy and/or are not using ammo that is capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy, so they'll never notice if the rifle is really a 1 MOA or 2 MOA rifle that took a few tries or a lot of tries to get the required test target. In those cases where the customer notices, they work on the rifle and hopefully improve the accuracy, or perhaps swap it out for one that will shoot to the required spec more consistently.

[FWiedner]

That a pretty round-about way of saying technicians can fudge their data to make it say what they want it to say.

[WinM71]

just a quick thought. A big difference like that can happen if one shooter grips the forearm while sighting & the other one doesn't. Without the grip on the forearm, recoil is free to raise the barrel & the gun shoots much higher. A friend & I were shooting a Win. M71 (.348 cal) a couple weeks back, and the difference at ~ 70 yards was about 8", with his hitting much lower. We couldn't figure it until I watched him closely & noticed that he was gripping the forearm securely (we were shooting off front & rear rests), while my left hand was back by my right shoulder on the bench, "squeezing" the rear rabbit-ears bag for elevation adjustment. Any chance something like that might be the reason?

[Sixgun]

They don't have the internet down where Felix and his boss do the testing so they think they can sell 20,000 rifles before the word gets out. I heard Felix manufacturers tall front sights as a side business.

The easiest solution is to install a .600 flat blade front sight and file it 'till it is "right". Take some measurements, then install the sight of your choice. I keep 50-75 front sights around here of different configurations for just those occasions.-------------6

[jh45gun]

Washita yea some one posted this at the cast bullets forum now if this is the case I would think that is not a fair test either if the barrel is not allowed to rise.

Although they told you it was shot from a bench I have to wonder if they don't have a clamping set up for testing. That would remove the normal muzzle rise that occurs when the gun is hand held on the bench. Sights that work fine from a locked position would likely shoot high when hand held. If that is what they are doing they need to change their test method.

Nice idea on the tall sight six gun but I wanted a fiber optic front sight on this since I had to change it out because I have one on my Model 94 Winchester 30/30 with a peep sight and I liked it. So hopefully this .538 height sight will work since it is a fair amount taller than the .440 that was on there. Guess I will know when I get a chance to shoot it.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Shooting too high is pretty common with the current Rossi 92’s particularly the round barrel carbines and the ranch hand. This is mainly because the rear sight that comes on it is just too tall. When making these guns Rossi is all about keeping cost down. They try to use a one size fits all. Think of the savings in man hours not having to keep up with different sight heights.
I'm not a big fan of adding a taller front, though. The original 92 had a slotted block with a blade soldered to the barrel. they did that because there is not enough barrel thickness for a true 3/8x60 dovetail. Rossi dovetails are 3/8's but are shallow cut. So, there is not much support for the base and if you go with a really taller front they can get knocked loose. I prefer to go with a lower rear sight although the fronts I sell or slightly high.

[jh45gun]

Well Rossi normally sends you a letter saying what they did to the gun I know this because they send me one that was to the wrong person and the wrong gun. SoI asked them to send me the right letter for proof of what they did when they repaired it for my records a reasonable request. They guy I talked to said he would but I never got it. I suppose he forgot so I called again and they said they would send the right letter showing what they done and the letter said they fixed it (yea I knew that ) but no description of what they did so I called again and got a lady this time who said she would send it right out and apologized. So while I had her on the phone I asked how do they sight in their guns and told her why. She said they bench rest it but no sandbags and no vise. So I told her well does not matter now I bought a higher front sight but I sure would like to know how your guy got such a perfect target shooting it when I cannot with them sights and I could not when I got the gun.