357magnum frustration!

[Nath]

Men I need your help!

I am struggling to find a load that will go into a sub 3" group with 158grn XTP's and H110 and A2400!

I have tried from 15.5grns of H110 to 18grns, 17.5 being the best all be it a 5" group or two groups! Usually 3rounds in a 2" cluster and 2 rounds together a few inches away!
CCI mag primer.

Same for the 2400 starting from 14.5 to 15.8grn, 15.8grn being the best but printing a similar pattern to the H110!
CCI SPP

My last dribble of H4227 at 16grn pretty much shoots any bullet into a nice group I am more than happy with. I am going to get some IMR4227 to see if I can duplicate it.

But in all of creation I do not understand why I can not achieve a good working load with the other two powders. I have played with the expander die, weighed cases and changed crimps. No change.

The factory fmj ammo I started with shot good groups all day long, shooting at 4" 200yd targets was very satisfying with misses only just missing! I do not believe there is an issue with the 94ae Legacy at all going off the factory ammos performance.

Help!

Nath.

[Sixgun]

Nath,
I just saw on the news that during the "Fox Conference of England", that the foxes have all grouped together and have sent spies to your house in order to introduce gremlins to your rifle. Yea, that's a lot of help for 'ya.

I don't think you are having a powder issue, I think its the bullet. Look at the profile of the factory bullets and try to match that up as its obvious they are fitting the throat better than the Hornady's. If the bullets don't fit the throat perfectly, some will cant and will cause the flyers. You might try seating out as far as possible that will still allow feeding and unconcern yourself with the crimp groove in the bullet, relying on bullet friction to the case or to simply use a Lee Factory crimp die.----------------Sixgun

[Hobie]

Seating depth? I think the XTPs are accurate, albeit in my Marlin 1894C, I use the max charge or Lil'Gun, CCI Mag primers and just about any .357 Mag case (all trimmed to the same length).

[Tycer]

I'll second seating depth. The 94 can handle 1.850". I'd try moving them out to a longer oal.
Those Marlins have a much shorter throat.

[86er]

My son's rifle just does not like 158 gr. Best groups are 3"+ at 100 yes. Either 125 gr or 180 gr shrink the groups by half or more. Maybe yours is weight sensitive too.

[El Chivo]

Those loads sound a little hot for best accuracy. I got very good accuracy in the same rifle with 10 grains of 2400.

I switched to IMR 4227. With 158's, 12.5 grains is the most accurate. My best loads are well under the max. I figure, if I need velocity, use a rifle cartridge.

[retmech]

I would try seating out further, length is no problem in 94's. My 94 AE has a long "toilet bowl" throat actually .400" long and is a real pain with cast. Another thing to try is shortened .357 max brass which you probably can't get over there.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Lil'Gun powder and the 357 a perfect match. Can you find Lil'Gun in the UK?

[AJMD429]

Using 2400 in my 44 Mag levergun I found that a VERY tight crimp was needed for good accuracy, vs. an 'ordinarily tight' crimp.

[stretch]

Nath, I've had great luck with 2400.

Bullet is a 158 gr. Unicor JHP (Speer). I don't have data with an XTP.

OAL = 1.580"

STD Primer- Mag-Tech or Winchester. Note that modern 2400 doesn't
need a Mag primer, and can give less than stellar results. That's out of
the Speer manual, by the way.

Cases = Winchester trimmed to 1.280"
Heavy roll crimp done in a separate operation.

My notes from testing with a S&W revolver with an 8 3/8 " barrel put
3 out of 5 shots into 3/8" at 25 yards, 4 out of 5 into 3/4" and all
5 out of the group into 1 3/4". That's standing, not rested. I dislike
shooting a handgun off of a rest, so I don't, although groups might
potentially be better.

Same load out of a 2" Rossi gives 1" or so 5 shot groups at 10 yards.

Mind you, I'm not shooting out of a rifle, and not with an XTP. Maybe
your gun just doesn't like XTPs. Compare with another bullet? Could
also be that loaded down a wee bit might improve accuracy.

Anyway, good luck! Let us know how it goes.

-Stretch

Oh, yeah Load is 14.0 gr. of 2400. Sorta forgot that important bit....

[gundownunder]

Sounds similar to the results I got when I tried XTPs in my Marlin.
The Marlin seems to like 158gr bullets least of all, doing much better with 125gr or 180gr, and that goes for cast as well. If adjusting seating depth doesn't fix it, I'd try some 180gr bullets if you can get them, or try getting a bullet that matches the shape of the Winchester factory stuff (anyone now what bullets Winchester uses?). A2400 is as good a powder as you can get, I use a max or slightly over max load of it behind a 175gr cast bullet and get 1750fps with accuracy around 1.5" at 50 and enough grunt to drop 200 meter rams most of the time if I do my part.

[3leggedturtle]

Gundownunder: I load a 180gr RNFP cast over 13.5 of 2400 and am only chronoing 1500FPS out of a 20" barrel. Just curious what your load is.


Nath; It sucks sometimes our toys wont shoot the bullets we like as well as we like them too. Hopefully with playingthe seating depth will improve things for you

[Griff]

Men I need your help!
158grn XTP's and H110 and A2400!
I have tried from 15.5grns of H110 to 18grns, 17.5 being the best all be it a 5" group or two groups! Usually 3rounds in a 2" cluster and 2 rounds together a few inches away!
CCI mag primer.
Same for the 2400 starting from 14.5 to 15.8grn, 15.8grn being the best but printing a similar pattern to the H110!
CCI SPP
My last dribble of H4227 at 16grn pretty much shoots any bullet into a nice group I am more than happy with. I am going to get some IMR4227 to see if I can duplicate it.
Nath.

Those loads sound a little hot for best accuracy. I got very good accuracy in the same rifle with 10 grains of 2400.
I switched to IMR 4227. With 158's, 12.5 grains is the most accurate. My best loads are well under the max. I figure, if I need velocity, use a rifle cartridge.

Lyman's 49th and the Hodgdon site for the H110 agree with El Chivo. Especially as Lyman lists 14.9 grains of 2400 as max w/the 158JHP at 1735fps.

Your load with H110 isn't that far off, but Hodgdon's does list 16.7 grains as max for a velocity of 1757 fps @ 40,700CUP pressure. They list 15 grains as a starting point... so the lower portion of your range should be workable.

They do list 14.9 grains of AA#9 @ 1774fps as their most accurate load w/the 158JHP.

[Dave]

I would try a standard primer. I have never had good luck with magnum primers.

[44-40 Willy]

My Navy Arms 1892 in 357 loved the 158gr XTP when pushed by 16gr of H110.

[J35]

A few random thoughts that might be causing your frustration

Maybe your bore is fouled out and needs some JB (A lot of the Win.94's stateside have a .356 groove, maybe they all do?)

If you are not already try single feeding it, empty magazine.

Use a firm grip and follow thru.

No advice on the Jacketed bullet loads, never tried em.

Try five cases with the same rim thickness if yours vary.

---J

[gundownunder]

My bore slugs .355 - .356 (seems to depend who slugs it), I use a Mihec 360640 rnfp sized to .357 with a Pat Marlin PB gascheck and 13.5gr 2400. The chrony was set at 10' from the muzzle.

[Nath]

Thanks men.
It is true that it readily shoots 180grn bullets and also interestingly some 158grn Remington hollow points also have flyers.

The hot loads I have are the ones that are the best groupers. I would of been more than happy to be under max charges if they grouped! In saying that I am not seeing excessive indication of pressure! I will try to seat the bullet further out which should drop pressure a little too.

I can not see it being a powder preference as I am getting the same bad results from two powders! Rifle primers, pistol primers and magnum primers have been tried to no avail.

If it works I will let you know.

Nath.

[Nath]

Well men you have triumphed again!

Thank you those that mentioned seating the bullet further out! With an overall length of 1.750" suddenly I get a group with the 158 XTP and H110.


I am very surprised it worked. Those bullets are sticking right on out the case!

I am very surprised at Winchester having such a long throat as it is!

Any how, manythanks.

Nath.

[Griff]

Musta been that "long" jump into the leade!

[stretch]

Woo-Hoo! Nice shooting!

Glad to hear you figured it out.

-Stretch

[Old Ironsights]

My son's rifle just does not like 158 gr. Best groups are 3"+ at 100 yes. Either 125 gr or 180 gr shrink the groups by half or more. Maybe yours is weight sensitive too.

Mine doesn't like 158s as well as 180s either.

Edit... hmmm... maybe I'll have to seat them out further as I hove a tonne of commercial 158 cast...

[Nath]

Fellers I can not believe the amount of leade!
The loaded round looks silly and I thought no way is this going to work!
That bullet must of looked like me at a bowling alley with them barriers up and the ball bouncing from side to side on the way down!!
It needs a longer case!

N.

[Griff]

Fellers I can not believe the amount of leade!
The loaded round looks silly and I thought no way is this going to work!
That bullet must of looked like me at a bowling alley with them barriers up and the ball bouncing from side to side on the way down!!
It needs a longer case!
N.

Any possibility that someone ran a .357 Maximum reamer up there? Maybe a chamber cast is in order before you proceed too far...

[Nath]

I will check it out !

N.

[stretch]

What Griff said.

A 357 Maximum chamber would explain a lot.

Or maybe just a badly-reamed 357 Magnum chamber...

-Stretch

[Old Ironsights]

What Griff said.

A 357 Maximum chamber would explain a lot.

Or maybe just a badly-reamed 357 Magnum chamber...

-Stretch

Remember that for a good while the Rossi .44s were Long too...