Win94+cast=vel?

[Nath]

Guy's, this ole chestnut yes!

If I switch to cast bullets un-checked in my 357m how fast can they go?
Or put different, would they make magnum velocity?

Have seen some between 15 and 16 Brinnel!

Your knowledge please!

Thanks.

Nath.

[Chuck 100 yd]

You certainly can push them up to and beyond factory magnum velocity. Will you regret it when cleaning the barrel??? That question depends on lots of things. Velocity alone does not mean you will have or not have leading. Bore condition and bullet fit,lube type and type of powder all play a role. All you can do is develop that load staying within the guidelines given in good load manuals and see what happens.
Have fun!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Bullet fit is step numero Uno ! Put too small a bullet in any barrel and you will get a course on lead mining.
In my Marlin caliber .357 Mag I am loading a .360 bullet. If I want mag preesure on the bullet base I may need a gas check. Plain base 50/50 mix (ww - pure) can be pushed easily to 1350 fps. Straight WW plain base can get to 1550. Water dropped with a gas check can cross 1700 +. Getting more velocity is just learning the ways to do it.
There really is no reason a well made, right diameter gas checked cast bullet cannot achieve most any speed. Even plain base cast bullets can get moving right along with slower powdrers easing them down the barrel.
Drop on over to Castboolits/Reloads and do some reading.
Mike in Peru

[centershot]

What Mike said, Yup!!!

[retmech]

I run the Lyman 358429 (cast 173 gr SWC plain based) to 1650 fps out of 2 Rossi 92's and a Winchester 94 .357. My hundred yard groups will run between 3 and 4". My best results have been with Winchester 296 or H110 (same powder). I get zero leading with straight wheel wt metal +2% tin which is around 12-14 bhn. The Rossi's have .3565 grooves and the Winnie is .357, I size .358 or .359 which doesn't seem to matter as long as it's bigger. I have tried 2400 powder and Blue Dot but get streak leading after a few rounds with both powders + throat leading from the Blue Dot. I have shot these loads in a friends Henry with similar results. The key to me with plain based bullets seems to be as soft of a launch as you can manage and 296/H110 seems to do that.

[Griff]

Yep, what Chuck & Mike said.

[Tycer]

Yep, what Chuck & Mike said.

Yep.

[Nath]

If I made a card punch say at .360 and put a couple of thin cards under the plain base do you think they would act as a gas check?
Thanks.

N.

[El Chivo]

I use Lasercast 180's in that same rifle, and no leading. The max load gives you about 1300 fps I think. The Lasercast is hard lead; if you push them too slow they DO lead the bore.

About the paper gas checks, couldn't hurt. I've been thinking about trying flame-retardant paint, just paint on gas checks. Would it work?

[Rusty]

Here's a forum to search on for a while. Once you get comfy with cast you'll never be hindered by jackets again.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?board=114.0

[Nath]

Does yous all think cast will deform some, I mean would even an advertised hard cast slug bump up any in small critters?

Is there another way to determine lead alloy hardness?

Thanks gents.

N.

[El Chivo]

deform how? Do you mean deforming the base to seal the bore at the moment of ignition? Or do you mean expanding in game?

The first issue is why you can get leading with hard cast that is pushed too slow. That's what I got with Lasercast and 10 gr 2400. I increased it to a max load of 13 gr 4227 (which I heard was slightly cooler burning) and that sealed it, no leading.

The second, whether it does or not, does it matter? A .357 magnum bullet will kill a fox either way.

[Nath]

deform how? Do you mean deforming the base to seal the bore at the moment of ignition? Or do you mean expanding in game?

The first issue is why you can get leading with hard cast that is pushed too slow. That's what I got with Lasercast and 10 gr 2400. I increased it to a max load of 13 gr 4227 (which I heard was slightly cooler burning) and that sealed it, no leading.

The second, whether it does or not, does it matter? A .357 magnum bullet will kill a fox either way.

In game expansion yes,,,and got to think beyond just fox's Chivo!

Even fox's run a good distance sometimes with fmj bullets and can be lost.

N.

[Rusty]

Yes you can determine hardness with a tester.

http://lbtmoulds.com/hardtester.shtml

[Nath]

Thanks gentlemen

N.

[Tycer]

A hard cast .357 mag bullet with a wide meplat will punch a 3/4" hole clean through meat with no bloodshot meat. Eat right up to the hole. An animal with two clean 3/4" holes through vitals will bleed out very fast. IMO, bullets that cause a bunch of damage leave shredded tissue to slow the loss of blood from the wound entry and exit.

[Nath]

A hard cast .357 mag bullet with a wide meplat will punch a 3/4" hole clean through meat with no bloodshot meat. Eat right up to the hole. An animal with two clean 3/4" holes through vitals will bleed out very fast. IMO, bullets that cause a bunch of damage leave shredded tissue to slow the loss of blood from the wound entry and exit.

Interesting point there,,,,all I know is the fmj is not so good, especially any without any sharp edges to the trunacation. Now if the commercially available cast bullets just bump up a little when they make contact I can not see them being any worsre on game. Cheaper too.

N.

[3leggedturtle]

One of Paco's articles, he talked about cutting gas checks out of milk containers. Both plastic and cartons, supergluing them to the bottom of cast with no leading afterwards. He also used Styrofoam packaging that food was sold on. There is also the the fiber wads that the SASS guys use. I have used Laser Cast bullets up to 1700fps with no leading.

El Chivo; Guys over on Cast Boolits are powder coating bullets and they claim great accuracy and no leading.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Try this...
Melt some bees wax or hard bullet lube in a pan half full of water. Use enough lube/wax to make a layer 1/8" thick as it floats on top of the hot water.
Let it cool slowly and you can remove that sheet of wax/lube in one piece . Cut your wads (lube cookies) out of it and load them under the bullet. You can also cut plastic wads out of old can lids and such. I have cut wads out of old cowboy hats and soaked them in melted bullet lube for use under cast bullets.
Fur felt hats can often be found in thrift shops or garage sales and will make several hundred wads.
Have fun!!

[El Chivo]

Paco had an article with something interesting. I think it was a 30-30 trick. You want hard cast for your barrel and soft cast for game. So you cast your own bullets, and when they are hot you quench them in cold water. This hardens them. But, you quench only the base, and you don't quench the tips. So the base is hard and the tip is soft.

I don't think you'll get 1700 with the .357, but Lasercast are supposed to be ok even up over 1800.

I think you should try the Barnes XPB for your purposes. Maximum velocity because they're only 140 grain, but they are long and penetrate and stabilize like 180's. And the tip is very expandable.

They even make a lighter one, 110 or 125 maybe, for 38 special. That would be very fast in your gun.

[Nath]

Thanks Gents.

Getting expanding bullets for 357 over here is getting a royal chore!

I no longer worry if they completly dry up

N.

[3leggedturtle]

Nath, want see and read more about expanding Eye Candy go to hollowpointmold.com Its a whole nother subculture I don't have money for.

[Grizz]

Nath

hard cast is just that, it hardly bumps up in fire wood. hard cast mostly resemble solids, as if they were lathe turned brass or something like that. like the other guys said, you don't need an expanding bullet you get two holes and no meat damage.
Although, come to think about it, you probably don't eat foxes.

if you want a bullet that expands then you can shoot soft lead like the buffalo hunters did. those do expand on impact. splat. They have to be kept below a certain velocity, I don't know the number, to avoid or reduce leading.

I shoot 185 gr hardcast, gas checked, sized .359, in my Win 94 Ranger Compact and get 1724 fps. No leading. Have not made meat with it.

Best
Grizz

[J35]

I think Mr. Nath need's to figure out the Paper Patch bullet for his 94, then he can tell us how to do it.

Then he can Roll his own cast expanding bullet's out of soft lead and not worry about a BHN number for his alloy.

I hear Paper Patch bullet molds are easy to make, Just a cylinder with a nose profile that would feed.
Could even be a one piece mold with variable weight easy enough.

-----J

[Nath]

I think Mr. Nath need's to figure out the Paper Patch bullet for his 94, then he can tell us how to do it.

Then he can Roll his own cast expanding bullet's out of soft lead and not worry about a BHN number for his alloy.

I hear Paper Patch bullet molds are easy to make, Just a cylinder with a nose profile that would feed.
Could even be a one piece mold with variable weight easy enough.

-----J

Hmmmmmm.

N.

[El Chivo]

paper patching seems like a nice idea, but it sounds pretty labor intensive.

[retmech]

I have no idea of the ranges Mr. Nath hunts at but you can easily run soft lead bullets in the .357 in the 1200-1300 fps range which would give some expansion on game. If hollow pointed explosive expansion in fact. A rifle sighted at 50 yds with such loads would give no problems making hits on fox size critters to 75 yds with little to no holdover.