Now you have gone and done it.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:18 am

Canuck Bob:

Let's face it, questions like why the 444 is far superior to the 45-70 are truly educational and worthy of a hot stove debate.

Now how did you go and get that backwardzzz????

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:17 am

You sure he got it wrong OS??

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:33 am

Yes!

Let the games begin!

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:38 am

Sounds good

I can't really put one against the other as I take one of each deer hunting (more liks woods walking) in the fall

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:50 am

Like the big BP rounds of the late 1880s, some were big, heavy & meant for BIG game, others were considered "express" rounds and meant for lighter work, where flat trajectory and light bullets were sufficient... that would be the .45-70 and .444Marlin, respectively.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:19 am

What`s a 444

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:37 am

Pitchy, it is the address that is 222 houses away from where Sherlock Holmes lives.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:23 am

Guys who buy 444's secretly wish they could have a 45-70 but their wives told them before the purchase, "you can only spend $300".

You know, these are the same guys who buy Ruger New Models when they really wanted a real single action, a Colt.

There! Let the fun begin.

-----------------------Mr. Flattop

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:47 am

I spent a pocketful of change. $2.62 and $1.82 Added up that comes to $4.44 Is that a sign or omen I need to purchase a Marlin of that caliber.

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:56 am

I have both, does that mean I am bi polar?

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:20 am

I don''t get it folk knocking trip'4....folk don't seem to get all pantie twisted over a 44m wheel gun taking large game. Oh no but strech that case and bung it in a rifle and everyone jumps on it...silly!

N.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:03 am

Nath wrote:I don''t get it folk knocking trip'4....folk don't seem to get all pantie twisted over a 44m wheel gun taking large game. Oh no but strech that case and bung it in a rifle and everyone jumps on it...silly!
N.

On the serious side, for example, with 240 grain bullets, you can get 1800fps outta a 44Magnum, and only add about 200 fps outta the trip4. The difference is markedly improved when you go up to 300grain pills. And that is pretty much the top of the scale for .444, whereas the .45-70 can still accurately shove up to 500 grainers out the muzzle. Sure, with a custom barrel & fast twists so can a .444, but... the question is, why?

Unlike the .375 Winchester vs the .38-55, IMO, there's not a significant enough jump to justify buyin' one when I already have a .45-70.

And on the lighter side, while I certainly admire 6pt for his collection and knowledge of their variations, a lil' pokin' annd funnin' about is the same as I get over my obsession with the .30-30 Winch, 94!

H-E-hockey sticks, even my wife'll ask, "...why you takin' that one today?" And I seldom have a better answer than, "I feel like it!"

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:23 am

Sixgun wrote:Guys who buy 444's secretly wish they could have a 45-70 but their wives told them before the purchase, "you can only spend $300".

You know, these are the same guys who buy Ruger New Models when they really wanted a real single action, a Colt.

There! Let the fun begin. -----------------------Mr. Flattop

There might be a lot of truth in that statement, intentional or not.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:25 pm

I'm waiting for Craig to see this thread and respond.

I mean, did someone just have a lot of extra time on their hands when they decided to take the 44 Magnum and stretch it. Did they consider the use of thinly jacketed pistol bullets at rifle speeds? Where they just in dire need of marketing ad copy?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:30 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:I'm waiting for Craig to see this thread and respond.

I mean, did someone just have a lot of extra time on their hands when they decided to take the 44 Magnum and stretch it. Did they consider the use of thinly jacketed pistol bullets at rifle speeds? Where they just in dire need of marketing ad copy?

They were anticipating the California Condor and the Lead Free era...

I'm betting those "gilding metal" lead free .44 bullets do really well in a .444...

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:48 pm

Pitchy wrote:What`s a 444

66.6% of 666

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:
Pitchy wrote:What`s a 444
66.6% of 666

Ow....

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Well that as may be but my money is on 444Marlin out living 450Marlin!

N.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:41 pm

Sixgun wrote:Guys who buy 444's secretly wish they could have a 45-70 but their wives told them before the purchase, "you can only spend $300".

You know, these are the same guys who buy Ruger New Models when they really wanted a real single action, a Colt.

There! Let the fun begin. -----------------------Mr. Flattop

Hey ..... I resemble that last wise crack ........ OUCH!

Only in my case they're Ruger Old Models. I can't abide that NM action .... "puke".

Joe

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:44 pm

wolfdog wrote:I have both, does that mean I am bi polar?

Alright! We'll have none of the "Bi" pelosi on this board.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:50 pm

Yes. The .45-70 and .444 are far superior.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:I mean, did someone just have a lot of extra time on their hands when they decided to take the 44 Magnum and stretch it. Did they consider the use of thinly jacketed pistol bullets at rifle speeds? Where they just in dire need of marketing ad copy?

I'm skeptical of the 'pistol bullet' complaint, as this is a photo of a 3/8" steel gong shot at 100 yards by a 444 Marlin using 'factory ammo' with that alleged wimpy 'pistol bullet'...the largest holes are from the Remington factory load in 444 Marlin which is a 265 grain 'soft-point' if I recall...

If the 'pistol bullets' do that to a steel gong, I don't believe they will 'explode on the skin' of a whitetail and 'leave it alive but wounded', as the naysayers say.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:08 pm

Well, at least we won't be banned from this forum for stating the self-evident truth that the 45-70 (well actually it's .452, so it's being humble) is far superior to the .444 (well it's actually .429 and trying to make itself sound bigger than it really is).

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:43 pm

Let me state my case folks.

I am convinced that Marlin and Remington really broke the marketing mold with the 444. It was a big bore express cartridge of Walter's Pet Loads description developed in the 60s. A Monte Carlo stocked 24" barrel lever action of the most modern design with a medium weight large bore bullet at high velocity. It was also a grand adventure for the lever action in a market dwindling to almost nothing but antiques for big bore lever actions. Folks who bought it and found that contrary to the accepted hydroshock bamboozle after WW2 it had outstanding terminal performance which assured the following success of the 45-70.

Some respected folks like Paco Kelly, Ken Walters, Fryxell, Stanton and users sure are loyal. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... rstood.htm is an interesting discussion by Paco and the 240 grain factory round.

Arguably, without the 444 the 1895 45-70 would never have made it onto the shelves. The 450 Marlin and countless repro big bore levers may not have materialized. I may be wrong but it is a valid point worth discussing on this forum in my opinion.

As far as the 444 itself I am of the opinion it is the best balance of power and use for North America. I bought one early in the 70s and still own it. I have nothing but outstanding performance from the 265 Horn FP and the long gone 265 Rem Factory loads. The 7MM Mag, 243, 375 H&H, among others are gone but the 444 stays. The original will handle at least 320 grain bullets with the MG barrel and hardcore heavy weight shooters can load up to dislocated shoulder levels with the faster twist rifle. It is everything the 405 Winchester was and is and that cartridge holds a special place for many lever action shooters.

The 45-70 is a dandy rifle in a modern pressure rifle but lacks the elegant history of the 444 regarding lever action history.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:06 am

Doc...Remington Factory loads are the 240gr SP....265s can be obtained from Hornady...A .444 Mogul tells me that the 240gr 444 bullet from Remington is different than the .44 Mag 240gr....I don't think I would be worried about using either at velocities they were designed for..

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:56 am

Remington did produce a 265 grain factory load many years ago. Sadly it didn't last long. I owned some for years but seem to have lost the last partial box over the years. I do remember thinking at the time that the Rem bullet was the Hornady 265 grainer because it was identical from a careful comparison.

I've never seen the Hornady 265 FP loads but would buy it if I ever bump into it.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:31 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Rimfire McNutjob wrote:I mean, did someone just have a lot of extra time on their hands when they decided to take the 44 Magnum and stretch it. Did they consider the use of thinly jacketed pistol bullets at rifle speeds? Where they just in dire need of marketing ad copy?
I'm skeptical of the 'pistol bullet' complaint, as this is a photo of a 3/8" steel gong shot at 100 yards by a 444 Marlin using 'factory ammo' with that alleged wimpy 'pistol bullet'...the largest holes are from the Remington factory load in 444 Marlin which is a 265 grain 'soft-point' if I recall...

If the 'pistol bullets' do that to a steel gong, I don't believe they will 'explode on the skin' of a whitetail and 'leave it alive but wounded', as the naysayers say.

The folk over here that I have spoken to that used 444 on deer(two people) got rid of the 444! Because.....it did to much damage! Not wounding, no lost deer, just to much mess!
Yep they needed better bullets or loads to meet thier requirements but I fear that was beyond them. Now I have not had the pleasure myself but would glady use a patched ball from a 54 or 58 muzzleloaded on a deer any size and so would also have no fear deploying a similar weight pistol bullet or tougher on a deer from a 444.
I prefer the 444 in a Marlin action over the 45/70 in a Marlin but would chose neither!
A single shot in 45/70 is the only platform I would use if I so chose!

N.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:25 am

Nath, the 265 is not a pistol bullet but one that was designed for the 444 and is built heavier. I see it was AJ that posted that but since you cited it thought it might be part of your consideration.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:52 pm

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is this .

The 45-70 is the better game cartidge with 400+ grain bullets . The 444 does okay with bullets up to 425 or so grains (I have a 450 grain mold Mt Sourdough sent me , but so far I've not put it to use yet).

The last 45-70 I had shot cast 300-550 grainers wonderfully . And on the other hand all my old Micro Groove 444's handle 200-375 grain cast just fine . My newer ballard rifled 444 has handled cast up to 425 grains so far with semi relative ease .

Now then the "actual need" for a bullet over say 350 grains in the 444 or 465 grains in the 45-70 is small at best .

And while I have spent a decent amount of time for the last 10 years shooting both cartridges with cast as far as I'm concerned when it's time to go after the big beasties IE grizz , brownies or white bears I'm taking something in a bolt action with a hole in the barrel .375" or larger . Sure maybe the 444 and 45-70 can handle all that , but in my mind I feel more "comfortable" shall we say with a bolt action 375 H&H MAG or 416 REM MAG . Now do I have any intentions of pursuing any of the three big North American bears ? Not hardly there's plenty other things I'd rather use that amount of money for !

As to the factory Remington 444 265 grain load . I have 3 1/2 boxes of the stuff in my collection . The little 444 moderator on Marlinowners once asked me to dismantle a round and compare the bullet to a Hornady 265 which I did . And other then the cannelure they looked similar but I'm not quite sure the actual contour was the same . Anyway I reassemlbed the round and put it back in the box !
One day perhaps I'll kill a deer or black bear with one of the REM 265 factory ronds but right now I'm quite happy to shoot cast only !

As I said earlier I personally believe the 45-70 to be the better hunting round of the two and thats mainly becuase I can (if I want to) shoot larger cast bullets well . The 444 however is alot more fun for me shooting many many many cast loads from the bench .

Now as to what others think , whether they agree or disagree I really don't care . But thats my take on the whole situation and it isn't something that I see me changing

On a side note I have a box of Barnes 900 grain solids to load in a 600 Nitro Express in the shop . And strangely it has me thinking

Also have about 90 of the Barnes .458" 450 grain TSX bullet which has me thinking about a #1 in 458 WIN MAG again . Yeah I know been there and done that , however those bullets are calling me !

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:21 pm

Old Savage wrote:Nath, the 265 is not a pistol bullet but one that was designed for the 444 and is built heavier. I see it was AJ that posted that but since you cited it thought it might be part of your consideration.

Thanks OS,yes get it

N.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:14 pm

6pt, thanks for that detailed info on the 265 gr Rem bullet. I have been going by a very old memory and never pulled a bullet to compare properly.

For the record I am a die hard 444 fan. The 45-70 is a real dandy in a lever and I made the statement about the superiority of the 444 for humor and to excite a little fun discussion. In an apples to apples comparison the 45-70 properly loaded for a strong rifle is ballistically better. However my 444 is all the kick I ever wanted to live with. The impressive work done by 6pt and others to develop real heavy weight 400+ gr cast bullets places the 444 in a different league. Here is a great link to a bullet test for the 444.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-m ... nship.html

Now you have gone and done it.

Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.

Re: Now you have gone and done it.