Marlin 94 cowboy - hot (ish) loads

[Bob Mccarthy]

One of the articles published on this site was regarding using "rifle only" 45 LC loads in various lever guns.

I recently drank the cool aid and bought 2 lever guns after a lifetime of shooting, competing and reloading with bolt guns.

I bought a Marlin Cowboy (2005) and a Pedersoli 1886/71 (new) which I'm working loads up for.

First up is the Marlin. I came across the article mentioned before. One of the recommended loads was 22g of 4227. I have quite a bit in storage. It also had a companion load of 25 gn, so 22 didn't seem so hot. Have 260 gn .451 on the shelf.

I loaded 5 rounds @ 20 grains, 5 rounds @ 21 grains, 10 rounds @ 22 grains, 5 @ 22.5 and 5 @ 23.0.

Just a walk up the pressure curve, looking for any signs the gun wasn't happy with the loads.

Now all these loads exceed anything in a loading manual, so I'm being cautious.

Has anyone else walked the same 4227 load path in 45LC and can you share your experience with me.

I've been reloading for 40 years and shot benchrest and NRA HP, so I have a little experience, but not in lever guns.

Both these guns need trigger jobs, any gunsmiths in North Texas you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bob

[ollogger]

HI & welcome

have loaded only one pound of 4227 so no expert here, but yes I went to 23gr in
a Rossi 92 It shot very well with it , a little less in a revolver both are 255 cast bullets
my favorite is Lil Gun or RL7 in the 92, seems to me you can get the speed with less psi
and get a good shootin load, but if powder ever becomes available again I will try 4227 again


ollogger

[earlmck]

Hi Bob, and welcome! You have a couple of nice leverguns there.

The reason for the big difference between load-book loads and "working-guy" loads in 45 Colt is that the load books start out knowing that there are lots of old black-powder era revolvers out there and so loads need to be kept below about 14,000 psi for them. But one of our modern lever guns can happily handle 30,000 psi in most cases, which puts the 45 Colt cartridge into a different performance plane.

So your 22 grain 4227 load is somewhere in the low 20K psi range and even the 25 grain load is probably below 30K psi. The rifle will be fine with these; you just don't want your shooting buddy with the old Colt revolver to try them out.

[GonnePhishin]

Welcome Bob,
Sit around the fire and have a cup of coffee with the boys. Say the fire has been pretty hot as of late so you might want to sit back a bit . Lots of knowledgeable pards around here who will be glad to answer yer' questions.
I also have a Marlin Cowboy but haven't done any hand loading for it. Welcome.

[mikld]

Welcome Bob. Lots of good knowledge 'round here.

Now all these loads exceed anything in a loading manual, so I'm being cautious

. Not what I'd call being cautious. I would start well below the starting loads and work my way up to max. But, with your experience with reloading and competition, I guess you know sumpin' I don't. FWIW, I pay very little attention to any load I find from any forum expert, range rat, or gun shop guru. I've only been reloading steady since '86 (actually first reloads were in '69) and I still stay with the book for load data and I haven't run outta loads yet...

[Bob Mccarthy]

I agree that normally the books are the way to go.

In the case of the 45LC, the books are all about shooting pistols or cowboy action shooting, mild loads.

I think by using slower rifle powder loads, the initial pressure spike should be lesser, and the push longer. My dilemma is no reference other than those who might have some experience. Quickload software suggest 30,000ish cup but I am taking it on faith the guns are strong. Honestly that is my fear.

What has me moving forward is the gun also is offered in 44 mag. I'm feeling somewhat justified.

The article by Paco available on the home page seems reasonable, would feel more confident if others could confirm.

thanks for your concern

Bob

[WyrTwister]

I agree that normally the books are the way to go.

In the case of the 45LC, the books are all about shooting pistols or cowboy action shooting, mild loads.

I think by using slower rifle powder loads, the initial pressure spike should be lesser, and the push longer. My dilemma is no reference other than those who might have some experience. Quickload software suggest 30,000ish cup but I am taking it on faith the guns are strong. Honestly that is my fear.

What has me moving forward is the gun also is offered in 44 mag. I'm feeling somewhat justified.

The article by Paco available on the home page seems reasonable, would feel more confident if others could confirm.

thanks for your concern

Bob

What are you shooting at ? I find little difference in the terminal effects on paper targets , between hot loads and mild loads . And the mild loads are a lot easier on the shoulder , in the light 16" barrel models .

I have a Rossi in .45 LC and a Marlin in .44 Mag . If I want hot , I load & shoot the Marlin . But mostly I choose the Rossi . ( I also have a Rossi in .357 Mag . )

But , yous pays your money and yous makes your choices .

God bless
Wyr

[Bob Mccarthy]

The gun will be used for those oversized vermin we have in abundance around our way called "pigs".

I have plenty of guns to use, but thought I'd enjoy the challenge, as I mentioned I've recently drank the lever gun cool aid.

Bob

[Bob Mccarthy]

I get being safe with hot 45 LC loads.

My fear is using one of my loads in a handgun. I may be the reverse of many, as my big bore hand gun of choice is a 44mag. I can buy 44 mag ammo off the shelf (in normal times) and be assured of not mixing ammo. I do need to mark my hand loads, "caution rifle only" to help keep others safe.

But I have what I have and I'm thinking with proper precautions everything is ok.

My experience with 6ppc and 6.5-284 tells me that reloading manuals are excellent guidelines for most, but there is some safety factor built in. My 6ppc was in a custom bench rest action, my 6.5-284 was in a quad lock, both extremely strong. I did not follow the manuals. The Marlin has limitations, I really get that.

I have similar concerns with the Pedersoli 1886/71. The factory's attorneys are very conservative with ratings. But it is modern forged steel and believe it to be very strong. I will not push the envelope as I care about unnecessary recoil for anything I might hunt in the lower 48. The speer manual has lever gun loads that I will likely use that are more than strong enough for my use.

Just saying, shooting the Marlin in 45 LC are a rare exception to not playing entirely by general guidelines.

Bob

[Griff]

and Welcome to THE Forum, Bob.

I have a Rossi 1892 in 45Colt and am building a 45Colt Marlin 1894 from a 1979 .44Mag gun and a Cowboy Competition octagon barrel, (still working on getting the timing right for the 45Colt). While I think the Rossi and the 1892 design in general, is the stronger action, I loaded up some .44Mag loads in 45Colt cases using the Sierra 240JHP over H110 for my hog loads to use in my 1892 Rossi. If you look at the Hodgdon website you'll see .44 Mag rifle loads llisted. While I didn't use 4227, they list between 22 (starting) and (24) max for pressuures between 28,400 CUP and 36,100 CUP. With the large case in the 45 Colt, I didn't have any problem using data from that source for H110. I stuck to the bottom @ 23 grains, and know my pressures are lower due to the larger case of the 45Colt over the 44Mag.

They hit hard at both ends... so I might drop down a bit... but I didn't find any real pressure issues, and while the primers were flat, the pockets were still tight. 45 Colt rifles tend to have big chambers (max SAAMI spec), and while this might keep pressure down as well as making it easier to chamber those fat bullets, it means you have to resize your brass and use somewhat higher (pistol level) loads if you want to keep the powder & gases from flowing around the case. 12,000+ CUP loads will do this, but... cowboy loads will soot up your cases well.

I also have two 45 Colt toggle link rifles (1873 & 1860 Henry), plus several Colt SAAs I use in cowboy action shooting, so... I have to keep this ammo VERY separate! These cases also have the case end painted RED! And are all new Starline, just to ensure the brass has the integrity to hold up. I've only shot a few, but the cases sized and reloaded fine. I only keep 50 loaded rounds on hand to minimize any potential for mixing with my cowboy guns.

Good luck, and give us a range report! I still haven't done a real range test of mine... still need a range trip to to make sure it's a good accurate load.

[Bob Mccarthy]

Did my day at the range. Took both the Marlin in 45LC and the new Winchester super light in 45-70. The Pedersoli was returned for a Winchester.

<Revised, see next post>

[Bob Mccarthy]

Griff, good post. This gun has an unusual history. I bought it new in 2004 +/- and originally shot cowboys loads in it matched up with a Colt Cowboy. I had thoughts of doing the cowboy thing. But I was heavily involved with X-course and Long Range at the time and never had time for the western shooting style.

The ammo I bought initially was bought at gun shows. Smoky and low pressure. The lack of pressure sometimes had me wondering I'd the bullet would clear the barrel. Perhaps an exaggeration, but not much. The fired brass was very sooty, inside and out. Your comment rings true.

The Colt is long gone. I thought the Marlin might be fun. HP competition went away as Ft Wolters was closed to the club and the closest 1000 range was a very long drive from me.

A friend I made along the way had a black powder bias and convinced me to try a different style of shooting. I still haven't embraced black powder, but sure like the firearms. He and I shot his Sharps LR 45-70 as well as my Win 1886 last week at the range. I pulled a boner at the range. I also had the loaded ammo for the Marlin with me, but when I opened my second gun case, my Carbird was in the case. I was ticked for a bit, but shooting the hottish loads in the 1886 made my day fun. The Sharps was icing on the cake. I have plans for testing the Marlin next week.

I wrote a range report under the title "day at the range with my 45-70".

Everyone, thanks for all the advice..

Bob

[Bob Mccarthy]

I finally got around to testing 45LC in my Marlin Cowboy. I only had a 25 yard range to shoot on so the results are preliminary as far as accuracy.

The gun shoots very well and my 22 (4227) grain load put all rounds of a 5 shot group into a small knot will all rounds overlapping with just a little spread. I need to get this to a longer range, I was just time limited today. (Correction-previous stated 21gn)

I do have one question. I know and respect all the signs of pressure from brass to primers, to extractors, to sticky extraction.

I see nothing of any consequence at all. Everything looks mild, though I'm shooting what would be concidered very hot. I'm near my max and the primers look like low pressure cowboy loads.

Is the limit when the gun blows up? I'm not seeing any way to tell if I'm even near the limit!!! My max load is 25 grains of 4227.

Any suggestions recommendations???

Bob

[Old Savage]

I would wonder if .451 bullets might not be big enough. Mine is a Rossi and needs bullets .453/4 to shoot well. .451 would give me 10" "groups". I do not know what the dimensions of a 45 Cowboy are.

[Bob Mccarthy]

I was shooting Speer 260 hp. i'm guessing .4511.

bob

[Griff]

I think you're good to go. If you didn't have any of the pressue signs at 21 grains, I wouldn't hesitate to bump it up in your increments you mentioned earlier.

I AM, however, hesitant to recommend a gunsmith. The one I used to use has passed on. I recently had some work done by Larry Pockrus of Ponder, TX (just outside Denton). He came highly recommended by a friend, and I see his work rated well on other forums.
Larry's Gun Repair
Larry Pockrus (40+ years experience)
(940) 479-0309
9080 Wolf Run
Ponder, Texas 76259

[earlmck]

I do have one question. I know and respect all the signs of pressure from brass to primers, to extractors, to sticky extraction.

I see nothing of any consequence at all. Everything looks mild, though I'm shooting what would be concidered very hot. I'm near my max and the primers look like low pressure cowboy loads.

Is the limit when the gun blows up? I'm not seeing any way to tell if I'm even near the limit!!!

Bob, your shooting with bolt guns has messed up your thinking. When you talk about "all the signs of pressure from brass..." you are talking pressures that run over 60K psi to give those signs. Here you are shooting a Marlin with a design limit in the order of 40K psi if it is going to hold together long term. You are not going to see your expected pressure signs until you have got way past what you want to shoot in that rifle. Now if you really want to use your accustomed pressure signs, trade that Marlin in on a Rossi. Or you could have kept the Pedersoli...

Anyway, you guessed right when you asked "Is the limit when the gun blows up?". Yep, unless you get one of those strain guages that can read your pressures you are going to need to stay with loads you are sure are withing your desired pressure range without the benefit of working up a load to where you see pressure signs and then backing off a scosh, like we do with bolt guns (or maybe the Rossi 92 style for those of us who do such things).

Uh... didn't that 22 grain load kick plenty hard enough to satisfy?

[3leggedturtle]

I shoot a 16" Puma 45 with a load of 15.7grs of HS7 and a Lee 255gr. RNFP. 20 rounds of that is more than enough in a session with the steel buttplate it came with. Paco uses a 300gr bullet with that charge. Wouldn't wanna feel that kick it gives. 3leg

[Bob Mccarthy]

I do have one question. I know and respect all the signs of pressure from brass to primers, to extractors, to sticky extraction.

I see nothing of any consequence at all. Everything looks mild, though I'm shooting what would be concidered very hot. I'm near my max and the primers look like low pressure cowboy loads.

Is the limit when the gun blows up? I'm not seeing any way to tell if I'm even near the limit!!!

Bob, your shooting with bolt guns has messed up your thinking. When you talk about "all the signs of pressure from brass..." you are talking pressures that run over 60K psi to give those signs. Here you are shooting a Marlin with a design limit in the order of 40K psi if it is going to hold together long term. You are not going to see your expected pressure signs until you have got way past what you want to shoot in that rifle. Now if you really want to use your accustomed pressure signs, trade that Marlin in on a Rossi. Or you could have kept the Pedersoli...

Anyway, you guessed right when you asked "Is the limit when the gun blows up?". Yep, unless you get one of those strain guages that can read your pressures you are going to need to stay with loads you are sure are withing your desired pressure range without the benefit of working up a load to where you see pressure signs and then backing off a scosh, like we do with bolt guns (or maybe the Rossi 92 style for those of us who do such things).

Uh... didn't that 22 grain load kick plenty hard enough to satisfy?

I barely noticed any recoil at all (seriously) but then again I frequently shoot a 1886 in 45-70 with hot loads which does hurt.

My reference point may be askew.

I had a feeling the answer to what is the limit, is " when the gun is damaged"

I'm thinking its time to just stop and enjoy the gun as it is. If the small knot group holds up at longer range, I'm a happy camper.

Bob

[w30wcf]

.........I bought a Marlin Cowboy (2005) and a Pedersoli 1886/71 (new) which I'm working loads up for.

First up is the Marlin. I came across the article mentioned before. One of the recommended loads was 22g of 4227. I have quite a bit in storage. It also had a companion load of 25 gn, so 22 didn't seem so hot. Have 260 gn .451 on the shelf.

.....Has anyone else walked the same 4227 load path in 45LC and can you share your experience with me......

Thanks,
Bob

Bob,
I also, thankfully, have a Marlin Cowboy rifle in .45 Colt that I purchased in 1997. H4227 is my favorite powder for heavy loads with cast bullets weighing 270 grs. and less.

I have used 25 gr loads with no issues and have even gone a couple of grs higher (capacity) with no problem with good accuracy. Of course, different lots of powder can = different results.

For bullets over 270 grs. I switch to W296 which works really well for bullets up to 350 grs. in weight which is about the maximum that can be stabilized in the slow 1/38" twist.

I do only neck size the cases to about 1/16" below where the bullet rests which leaves the rest of the case in the as fired condition. That prevents overworking the brass fired in the generous .45 Colt chamber.

These days, I find myself shooting more b.p. cartridges and SAMMI 13,000 CUP smokeless loads than anything else.

I must be getting older........and........I like stepping back in time.......

w30wcf

[AJMD429]

I don't push pressure limits or go past manufacturer's published data, but it is my understanding that when dealing with a very strong action/gun, the 'pressure signs' are potentially useful, in that most of them are indicators that the brass cartridge or primer is starting to stretch excessively. However for many actions/guns, you will already have passed safe stress levels for the action itself at that point.

It is one thing to notice 60,000 psi is stretching your brass in your 80,000 psi-capable firearm (and risking only case-rupture), vs. noticing that 60,000 psi in your 55,000 psi-capable gun is stretching your brass as well as the action. Having the action fail is way more of a day-ruiner than blowing a cartridge case!

I may be wrong on the actual psi-limits, but as other have noted, 'pressure signs' are not a good guide for typical lever gun actions BLR may be an exception), even though for a strong bolt-action or Ruger #1, they may be appropriate to use.

As you noted though, some cartridges like 45 Colt & 45-70 are commonly loaded to 'modern' pressure levels far higher than the 'vintage' ones, but at least there is published data at that level.

For other cartridges I tend to just go 'up' by moving to a new cartridge; if 357 Mag won't do it at a normal load level, I step up to 357 Maximum, or to 35 Remington. If that won't handle I'll have to buy a 35 Whelen, or just go out-of-caliber to my 375 Ruger...

Sounds like you already know most of this, but I figure it doesn't hurt to post such stuff for any newbies who may be following this thread.

[Snaketail]

Being from North Texas I can say this for certain - you will have a challenge finding a good gunsmith in that part of the world. I used to work for Cabela's in Allen (in the Gun Library). We used two gunsmiths...one in Denton was fine, but always had a backlog of work. One from Wylie had the time, but was little more than a shade-tree gunsmith (I suppose that's why he had the time) - It didn't take long for the Wylie gunsmith to get in over his head and we stopped using his service.

Best suggestion - ask at one of the local shooting clubs - they are more prone to know "who is" and who isn't" in favor. Some of the gunsmith's I've worked with in the past were excellent craftsmen, some were little more than guys with a hammer and screwdriver who "said" they were smith's...ask around first.

I needed some work on my 92 and went to the "big" dealer here in Tucson. He was backup for months working on black-guns. I found a retiree who a reputation for fixing the "big" dealer's screw-ups and used him. When I went back a week later to pick up my 92 there were two people there with M4's the first guy had screwed up royally. My point is - just because they are the big shop doesn't always mean they are the best shop. Find a smith who takes pride in his work.

M

[Bob Mccarthy]

There is a great "accuracy" style gunsmith in N Texas. Don Starks at S&S is fantastic at bolt guns. He built a number of my F Class long range guns and my Benchrest guns. He worked with Speedy Gonzales at S G &Y. He built both my Jarretts, the Catbird and 300 Jarrett.

But alas he not a lever guy. S&S just south of Denton off 377.

Highly recommended.

Bob

[KWK]

Both these guns need trigger jobs, any gunsmiths in North Texas you would recommend?

I've not tried it, but I made an entry in my notebook regarding this kit, which a number of shooters report having installed themselves. It's available from Brownell's and Midway and perhaps others.

[w30wcf]

I agree that normally the books are the way to go.

In the case of the 45LC, the books are all about shooting pistols or cowboy action shooting, mild loads.

I think by using slower rifle powder loads, the initial pressure spike should be lesser, and the push longer. My dilemma is no reference other than those who might have some experience. Quickload software suggest 30,000ish cup but I am taking it on faith the guns are strong. Honestly that is my fear.

What has me moving forward is the gun also is offered in 44 mag. I'm feeling somewhat justified.

The article by Paco available on the home page seems reasonable, would feel more confident if others could confirm.

thanks for your concern

Bob

Bob,
As I had mentioned in my earlier post, I have used 25 grs of H4227 in the past and even went up a couple of grains with no issues in my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy Rifle.

In the Hodgdon data manual No. 26 (1993) they show 26/H4227 @ 29,400 CUP under a 250 gr bullet and 25.5/H4227 @ under a 260 gr. bullet giving 30,000 CUP. They did not mention the make of the bullets (cast), brass nor the primer brand.
The velocities 1,375 and 1,340 were taken in a 7" barrel.

Testing the 25 gr load in the 24" barrel (RCBS 257 gr bullet / R-P brass / WLP) produced an average velocity of close to 1,700 f.p.s.

Using the data for a 300 gr. cast bullet for H110 / W296 (23 grs / 30,000 CUP) it exited the 24" barrel at close to 1,600 f.p.s.

Both loads comfortably around 30,000 CUP and well below the 40,000 CUP Paco indicated the Marlin & 92 Winchester could handle.

w30wcf

[Bob Mccarthy]

I'm having a blast with the Marlin. I have it shooting well and have a keeper. Trigger needs some work is all I really "need" to get solved.

But I'm shooting up my supply of Speer bullets and can not find them anywhere. So I'm saving the remainder for some hunting trips I have planned.

A friend is a bullet caster and has my attention. We did a run of big postels for his 45-90 black powder setup.

I'm on the edge of buying a basic setup. But when looking at moulds, I see very few gas checked.

I'm assuming if I shoot at 1800 fps a gc would be required, I'm assuming from the experts who write about this stuff, certainly not from any real experience.

Question, what do you all shoot in cast bullets? I'm not thinking I will lighten up the loads from my current loading. At least at the beginning...

Bob

[SPROCKET]

Two bullets from opposite sides of the spectrum that have worked well in my Winchester trapper:

Barnes XPB 250gr (made for the 454 Casull)

Speer #4684, cheaper than fill dirt and shoots better than most boutique bullets I've tried.

I run both of these with warmish loads of 296/H110.

[Bob Mccarthy]

I wasn't clear.

A little background, I am on a sizable deer lease in central Texas that I have 12 month access. The cowboy with my Speer 260 gn hollow points is a great deer setup. I have 100 rounds left from my stockpile. It's getting to be my pig season. The Speer is not the best round and I use a 44mag with 300 lead solids in a redhawk, if a rifle I use my 45/70.

The new idea is to shoot lead cast bullets. Cheap-cheap and some fun casting bullets. Something I've never done before. I'm thinking I can enjoy the Marlin 94 as a walk about gun. Pigs are a possibility.

So my question is related to shooting cast ammo with roughly the same ballistics as what I shoot in jacketed bullets.

Thanks for your reply.

Bob

[1894c]

this has been a great thread...learned allot...thanks for posting... :)

[Bob Mccarthy]

Went to the range today, thought I'd try a new bullet in the Marlin.

Loaded 22 gn 4227 using a pb lazer cast 250. Your result will vary. Work up please..

It did well shooting roughly 2-2 1/2 inch groups. Not bad concidering it was breezy today.

Since I was shooting a PB cast bullet without a gas check I was curious about if it would lead the barrel.

It did not, though I had a fair amount of unburnt powder on the patch.

Bob