Marlin .357 carbine and158 gr. cast bullets..............

[centershot]

Frustration. The dictionary defines it as "Expecting accuracy while shooting 158 gr. cast bullets from a Marlin 1894 .357 carbine." Well, it seems that way, anyway. I know I'm not alone in my pursuit, others here and on other forums have expressed similar frustrations. What I don't understand is "Why?". 180 gr. cast bullets work great, as do 158 gr. jacketed bullets. From my results I know that the rifling (6-groove Ballard) will stabilize 158 gr. jacketed bullets at any reasonable velocity (800 to 1800 fps). I know that the rifling will also stabilize 180 gr. cast bullets at any reasonable velocity, up to around 1700 fps. It's not a "rifling thing". Hard or soft, this gun groups 158 gr. cast into 5" at 50 yds. Jacketed 158's go into a 1" jagged hole at the same range. ???????????????????? Frustration.

[Terry Murbach]

SIMPLE; THE BULLETS WERE DESIGNED TO BE USED IN REVOLVERS, NOT IN CARBINES OR RIFLES. SOMETIMES THEY DO WORK BUT NEVER BET THE RANCH ON IT !
FURTHERMORE YOU ARE PROBABLY EITHER DRIVING 'EM TOO FAST OR THEY ARE UNDERSIZED FOR THAT CARBINE, OR BOTH.
A CHANGE IN PROPELLENTS CAN DO WONDERS;START EXPERIMENTING.
IF THE 158gr SWC BULLETS YOU MENTION ARE NOT GASCHECK BULLETS QUIT WASTING YOU TIME WITH THEM.
THERE IS A GOOD REASON WHY THE JUSTLY FAMOUS OLD TIME CARBINE CARTRIDGES IN 32-20, 38-40, ANDS 44-40 HAD LFN BULLET DESIGNS. GRANDPA KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND WHY, AND THOSE WHO DO NOT RE-READ THE GOOD HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT THE BAD HISTORY.

L.......F.............N........... EMO UU SS EE.........

[FatJackDurham]

have always heard the 180 grain do better, but I have never found any to test. I also have heard some people rave about how accurate the .357 carbines are, but I never had any luck with mine.....

[Old Ironsights]

With the 180s it's usually best to roll your own anyway.

Frankly, it almost doesn't matter to me WHAT gun they come out of. IMO 180s simply work better than 158s in virtually every case.

(not that I don't have a few thousand 158s waiting to be stuffed into cases, but I just prefer 180s for anything but random plinking...)

[J35]

Frustration. The dictionary defines it as "Expecting accuracy while shooting 158 gr. cast bullets from a Marlin 1894 .357 carbine." Well, it seems that way, anyway. I know I'm not alone in my pursuit, others here and on other forums have expressed similar frustrations. What I don't understand is "Why?". 180 gr. cast bullets work great, as do 158 gr. jacketed bullets. From my results I know that the rifling (6-groove Ballard) will stabilize 158 gr. jacketed bullets at any reasonable velocity (800 to 1800 fps). I know that the rifling will also stabilize 180 gr. cast bullets at any reasonable velocity, up to around 1700 fps. It's not a "rifling thing". Hard or soft, this gun groups 158 gr. cast into 5" at 50 yds. Jacketed 158's go into a 1" jagged hole at the same range. ???????????????????? Frustration.

5" at 50 yrds is better than I did when I first cast some 158 gr Plain base bullets, I missed a 30 " x 30" Target backer 3 times out of five, totally wild, These were 11 gr AA 9, LBT Blue lube, Win cases, the bullet was the old Lyman -Ideal 357443-- WW +2% tin air cooled. .358 Dia.
Crony=1350fps, 20" in barrel .

Tried again everything the same but used Felix lube same results.

Tried again everything the same except Lee Liquid alox lube -- 2" group.

Tried again but this time I made some of Glen Fryxell's lube, 50/50 Beeswax and Sta-lube Moly- Graff grease, 5 in a ragged hole at 50yrds, 5 in a 1-1/2" at a 100yrds all day long .

I can do no wrong with LBT blue or Felix lube using GC bullets.

I used to think lube was lube but proved to myself with this experience that it can make a difference.

----J

[Chuck 100 yd]

Find the EXACT combination and it all comes together.

[centershot]

Terry Murbach, The bullets I am using are LFN profile, both ACWW & WDWW. They cast at .360", I size to .358", the bore slugs .3562". 50-50 Alox & beeswax lube (Javelina). As I posted, I have tried velocities from 800 to 1800 fps, powders were Bullseye, 231, Unique, Blue Dot, 2400. It's not that I haven't put some effort into this. No, I haven't tried gascheck bullets, the 180 grainers I shot were PB and were loaded to 1700 fps with good accuracy, don't see a need for GC's on the 158's, but might have to go that route eventually.

[Old Ironsights]

Terry Murbach, The bullets I am using are LFN profile, both ACWW & WDWW. They cast at .360", I size to .358", the bore slugs .3562". 50-50 Alox & beeswax lube (Javelina). As I posted, I have tried velocities from 800 to 1800 fps, powders were Bullseye, 231, Unique, Blue Dot, 2400. It's not that I haven't put some effort into this. No, I haven't tried gascheck bullets, the 180 grainers I shot were PB and were loaded to 1700 fps with good accuracy, don't see a need for GC's on the 158's, but might have to go that route eventually.

You really do need to use GC bullets out of a rifle. none of my non-gc bullets shoot better than Plinking accuracy. But if I have to shoot a 158, it is and will be the Lyman 358156 gc-hp.

[El Chivo]

mine does better with 158's at low velocity and fast powder. I had a dead nuts load with 7.5 gr Blue Dot. A friend gave me some of his Bullseye loads and they were almost as good. But you're right, the stout loads work better with 180's.

[JerryB]

Reckon this won't mean much to most folks but my grandson has shot a lot of 158gr swc rounds with 4.7gr of Unique. His Marlin carbine just does not have a problem with that bullet, bevel based and no gas check. He can hit anything he shoots at with that carbine and load. Must just be a strange little carbine that don't know it ain't supposed to like that load.

[AJMD429]

5" at 50 yrds is better than I did when I first cast some 158 gr Plain base bullets, I missed a 30 " x 30" Target backer 3 times out of five, totally wild, These were 11 gr AA 9, LBT Blue lube, Win cases, the bullet was the old Lyman -Ideal 357443-- WW +2% tin air cooled. .358 Dia.
Crony=1350fps, 20" in barrel .

Tried again everything the same but used Felix lube same results.

Tried again everything the same except Lee Liquid alox lube -- 2" group.

Tried again but this time I made some of Glen Fryxell's lube, 50/50 Beeswax and Sta-lube Moly- Graff grease, 5 in a ragged hole at 50yrds, 5 in a 1-1/2" at a 100yrds all day long .

I can do no wrong with LBT blue or Felix lube using GC bullets.

I used to think lube was lube but proved to myself with this experience that it can make a difference.

----J

Wow. . . I never would have guessed 'lube' would be that much different in terms of accuracy; barrel-leading or whatever maybe, but. . . wow...!

[BigSky56]

theres a outfit that makes gaschecks for plain-base bullets out of .008 alum, you slip them on and run them base first thru the sizer solves the to soft or to hard problem they have a sample pack of 100 4-6$ as I remember. 358 pb GC http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/index.php? ... er=product. All their stuffhttp://www.sagesoutdoors.com/index.php?. danny

[Grizz]

My .357 cast bullets are sized .359, yours sound a little skinny. Might be worth trying some.

Marshall Stanton says you can't work up good cast bullet loads with copper fouling in the barrel and he consistently says the first step is to strip all the copper out of the barrel.. might be worth a try.

have you checked the crown? I know it's accurate with the heavier bullet, but there could be some kind of interaction there, maybe...

Grizz

[Buck Elliott]

Years ago, I shot 358156s GC and 358429s in my old Rossi.. I had to crown the muzzle to get it to shoot at all, and it made all the difference in the world.. I loaded max amounts of W-296/H-110, and in those days, had no trouble holding less than 1.5" @ 50 yards..
The bullet/load that made the little carbine the happiest was 125-gr. jSP, over lots of 2400..

[Glenn]

Centershot, just for grins hand lube some of your .360" bullets and load them that way. Sometimes really fat bullets work better. As long as the cases will freely chamber, they'll be safe to shoot.
Glenn

[centershot]

Glenn, I had thought of doing that but the bore slugs .3562", that makes the as-cast diameter .004" oversize. I have concerns about that.

[Tycer]

Glenn, I had thought of doing that but the bore slugs .3562", that makes the as-cast diameter .004" oversize. I have concerns about that.

Don't be concerned. What are you crimping with? I found that the carbide Lee FCD and my RCBS dies sized my fat bullets back down to .358" which is too small. I have moved on to the Lee Collet FCD for crimping my fat .38/.357s. I did find that the Redding Profile Crimp die worked very well.

OI, my Win. 94 shoots plain base 200s at 1875 fps with no leading and superb accuracy. If the bullet fits it will shoot.

[Grizz]

I found that the carbide Lee FCD and my RCBS dies sized my fat bullets back down to .358" which is too small.

too right Tycer.

AND

I found that the tight cylinders on my redhawk do the same thing to my fat bullets... took a little while to figgure it out..

[GoatGuy]

All good info here in this topic. Been coat-tailing it, since I very recently acquired a Rossi, 92 .357. When I get time to do more than fix the very few "quality boogers" (thanks to Steve's help), I'll begin working on the more esoteric issues relating to bullet weights, etc. Been reloading .357 (for revolvers) for more than 30 years, but this may be an opportunity to teach this old dog some new tricks. Lookin' forward to it!

[JerryB]

GoatGuy, you are going to love that Rossi .357 carbine, if you are anywhere near normal you will find that is about the greatest little carbine a man can carry here in these Arkansaw hills. Mine is an early Interarms Rossi saddle ring carbine,it goes every place with me. It eats .38 and .357 swc loads just fine. Try you handgun loads they'll do fine.

[centershot]

OK, I'm convinced, I'll load some test rounds with some as- cast diameter boolits and give it a try. It'll be the weekend before I can get to the range but I'll post the results here! Thanks guys!

[centershot]

OK, range outing this AM.............well, I shot a 5 shot group at 50 yds., 3 shots into 1" and 2 more opens the group to 4". One of the fliers was the first shot, it hit 2" higher than point of aim. After checking that shot in the scope I proceeded to shoot the other 4 without looking through the spotter again. I'm convinced that there is hope here, gonna' need to do more tinkering. Here's the load data so far: 158 gr. RNFP (actually 161 Gr.) cast of COWW and water dropped. As cast diameter is .360", bore slugs .3562". Pan lubed with Javelina 50-50 Alox-beeswax lube, bullets were not sized, they were shot as-cast. Loaded in W-W cases with CCI mag primers, 13.5 gr of #2400. Feeds and chambers flawlessly. No indications of excessive pressures.

I'm going to work the powder charge first, before I change lubes or play with bullet diameter. If anyone has a better plan, feel free to drop a note here! I'm off to tinker.................

[Merle]

Marshall Stanton says you can't work up good cast bullet loads with copper fouling in the barrel and he consistently says the first step is to strip all the copper out of the barrel.. might be worth a try.

Grizz

+1 on this. Some guns don't seem to care about copper fouling, but most of mine did. Use a good copper remover & see what happens.