Inexpensive Flintlock: Fun, or Frustration or ???

[Old No7]

It seems I am doing pretty well in the Leverguns department these days... Sure, there is that sweet l'il Winchester 1892 Button Mag in 357 Mag that I've drooled over but didn't "pull the trigger on yet"... But for some reason, the gun that is calling out to me lately is an inexpensive flintlock -- of all things...

I saw it in a local gun shop several weeks ago after an unsuccessful deer hunt, and I just can't stop thinking about it. It's a 44 caliber Euroarms "Kentuckian", with a 1-piece stock and a 35" barrel. Here are some pictures of a similar one that just sold on GunBroker for $350:

EA Kentuckian 01.jpg

EA Kentuckian 02.jpg

EA Kentuckian 03.jpg

Well, I can get the one I saw for $220 out the door, but I will have to replace the ramrod, as the original was a 2-piece deal (as shown in the pictures) and the one on it is broken off and missing the short extension. The condition of the gun is about the same as shown, with decent wood and trim lines, with nice bluing and a case-hardened lock. Made in Italy, some internet research suggests these Kentuckian's can be fine shooters with the right ball/patch combination, but the locks are good or bad. So some tuning of the lock, or hardening of the frizzen, may be needed.

I guess that what attracts me to this, is it could be a neat project gun in an area of the shooting sports that I haven't jumped into yet. My twin is into flintlocks -- and matchlocks -- big time, as he has over 6 or 8 of them from the French & Indian period, or earlier. I've shot his several times, but never got the bug to get my own until now. Here's a neat link to a Close-up of the Flintlock Firing Sequence that I added to one of Gunny Reed's post way back when. It's pretty amazing seeing that ball of flame going off so close to one's eyeballs...

To date, all of my blackpowder experience has been with a Ruger Old Army, 1861 Colt or several T/C sidelocks (a .45 Cherokee lately), using Pyrodex and percussion caps. Though lately, I have switched to using 777, as I can easily clean them at the bench with the Hoppe's milky BP solvent. Getting this flinch-lock will require me to finally get real blackpowder in 3F and 4F grades, as well as flints -- and then learning all about flintlocks and their magic/mystery.

OK, so maybe I've watched "Last of the Mohicans" or "The Patriot" too many times, but I really like the long, slim lines of this Kentucky-type rifle. It handles really well, and although its accuracy and reliability are unknown and will be an adventure, I can picture myself trying to "Aim Small, Miss Small" with it at the range or in the woods.

So the questions to the forum are...

* Would you take a chance on an inexpensive flintlock like this to "get your feet wet" and see if you really enjoy the challenge and extra efforts?

* Or, would you hold out and spend 2X or 3X (and you could easily spend many X more!) to get a better quality flinter to get into the sport with?

It's odd that I can't stop thinking about getting that longrifle to play with... As it's still there in the shop and I've been mulling it over for a month or so now, I could really use some feedback from others here on what you might do in this situation.

Thanks! And keep your powder dry.

Old No7

[Pete44ru]

.

Although I've only been shooting rocklocks for the past 10 years (but capguns since the 1960's), I've learned that a lot of the imports can be a c**pshoot, as to what one ends up with.

OTOH, I've owned a couple of .50cal Austin & Halleck Mountain Rifle's (one of which I sold to a fellow levergunner - Thanks, Paul ! ) that never gave me problem one.

One rifle was a 1:28/conical twist; the other a 1:66.PRB twist, so if you go with one, be sure to get the twist you prefer.



They generally change hands for around $500, but sometimes a google search can turn up a less expensive one - like this one @ $300: http://www.armslist.com/posts/2335495/y ... tain-rifle


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[pwl44m]

Inexpensive was the route for Me. I am well pleased with My CVA squirrel rifle 32cal. Never cared much for Flinters but to each His own. I now have 32 & 45 rifles and a 44 Pistol. Don't plan on any more but Who knows, they might be like Leverguns- if one comes along at the right price !
Perry

[C. Cash]

My experience is not extensive, but from what I have shot and seen, ignition with some of the european guns can be a gamble as Pete says. I've seen alot of misfires in percussion form. My TC Renegade always seem to go boom as did my custom Longrifle. If you like the historical accuracy of a piece as well as the mechanical accuracy that comes from a well tuned flint lock with a good barrel, I would invest in the real deal.

[cas]

I've had enough headaches from cheap cap locks, I wouldn't want to gamble on a cheap flintlock.

Some people like to tinker, hardening or softening things if needed, but you can't change bad geometry if that turns out to be the issue. None for me thanks.

[Nath]

Getting a bad n' to work aint rocket science.

The only real mistake you are making is that it aint smoothbore

I had to fiddle with my new Pedersoli trade gun. Lightened the frizzen spring. Get the lock off the barrel. The pan needs polishing to make wiping it easier. It is getting there and is now very reliable.
Modern caplocks suffer mostly from the stupid tiny hole they drill in the nipples these days!
I never ever have an issue with mine once opened to 1mm or .040"

I went out today with a conventional sxs and to be honest found it near boring and wished I had grabbed the flinter! I ignored rising pheasants and woodcock to save them for a frontloader!

Best wishes.

Nath.

[Chuck 100 yd]

A quality flinter will be very reliable and shoot almost as quick as a caplock.
Tests were done using high speed cameras and they found that a quality flintlock was so close to the same speed as a caplock that most shooters could not really tell the difference in lock time.
The main problem with inexpensive flintlocks is the frizen is not hardened properly or made of high enough quality steel. The sparks come from the frizen and not from the flint. The flint scrapes tiny particles of steel from the frizen that are white hot from friction and that is what lights the priming powder. If the angles are wrong,the hammer spring too weak or the frizen of poor quality or the frizen spring bad the gun wont be reliable. Also the flash hole needs to be in the proper location and sized right. The method of loading and at least a dozen other factors come into play in making a flinter reliable.

At The big ML range in Friendship IN where the big matches are held it is said there are more misfires on the caplock line than on the flint line. That is because the flintlock shooters are more aware of the needs and feeding of their gun than most of the caplock shooters. The flint shooters know how to make them shoot . Buy the best quality lock you can afford.
That said, I owned one of the rifles in question and if starting over again,I would own one of them again. A good place to start and to learn from. It will resell again to get your money back after you have learned much and had lots of fun.

I own 14 flintlock rifles. most of them I built from parts from Track of The Wolf.
Have fun!!

[Shasta]

I have many years of experience shooting flintlock rifles, starting back in the early 80's with a cheap one similar to the one you pictured. I believe it was a CVA if memory serves correctly. The quality of the lock, stock, and barrel were in line with its cheap price. The frizzen was so soft it rarely gave enough spark for reliable ignition. The barrel's rifling was shallow and accuracy was pretty much a joke. The one thing it did do was convince me that I really enjoyed the challenge of shooting a flintlock.

Unless you like being frustrated, don't even think about a cheap flintlock. By all means, spend the money for a quality gun! It will be far more reliable, more authentic to the original style, and give several lifetimes of accurate shooting with proper care. Guns are never a bad investment.

Being left-handed, I had a very nice custom made full stock .54 caliber percussion Hawken made for me by my good friend and craftsman, Art Knolty, back in 1979. In 1983 I persuaded him to built me a left-handed full stock flintlock Hawken in .62 caliber. Lock and triggers are L&R, barrel is a Green River with .011" deep cut rifling. Parts and labor cost me over $600, a lot of money back then. Now here it is 30 years later, Art has been gone for some time, but the Knolty flinter still shoots great, with a fast and reliable ignition every bit as good as any percussion. I've won many a shootin' match with it. Here is a picture of my flintlock collection, all are custom built:




Top to bottom they are the left-hand .62 caliber Hawken, Art's personal 20 gauge smoothbore Trade Gun, a left-hand Don Reimer made .54 caliber Jaeger transition style rifle, and last is Art's personal .45 caliber Kentucky pistol.


SHASTA

[Bob Hatfield]

Here is a not so inexpensive one. You will get used to the flash to a point that you don't even notice it at all. Sharp flint, correctly hardened frizzen, open touch hole, and dry prime and it will always fire.

Bob

[Marvin S]

If its used see if you can spark it a couple times and check for lots of good sparks that go in the pan. Take a small powerfull flashlight and inspect the bore, if its clean it should reflect light off of the breech plug so you can see. Run a jag and patch down the bore for condition and buldges. Check triggers set and unset. You can just look in the muzzle and tell if the rifling is nice and deep. If all looks ok go for it.

[gamekeeper]

Over the years I've had four Italian Kentucky's, two cap lock two flinters.
I never had a problem with the cap locks, they were reliable enough but the flint locks required a little work and a lot of patience , I would not buy another cheap flint lock Kentucky but I do like the Pedersoli Trade Musket smooth bore 20 gauge.

[Old No7]

Thanks to all for the feedback above...

I don't think it's going anywhere soon, so I will mull it over some more... Who knows, maybe it will become a Christmas Gift to myself. (After all, I have been a little naughty this year! )

Getting a bad n' to work aint rocket science.

The only real mistake you are making is that it aint smoothbore

Not sure if I am ready for a smoothie rock-lock yet!!!

But one advantage I do have, is my twin brother is a "self-proclaimed expert" at tuning and shooting flintlocks, and he does quite well with his Pilgrim-style matchlock too! Actually, to his full credit, using his .69 cal Caywood Trade Rifle smoothbore, with only a front sight (no rear or rifling), it is not uncommon for him to outshoot 80% of the rifles on the line at the BP club where he shoots. I have seen him do it many times.

He proves the adage that if you can shoot a flintlock well, you probably shoot everything else pretty well, as he has excellent post trigger pull control and follow-through. (Unlike me, who tends to lift my head as I'm too eager to see where the shot hit... )

Anyway, I'll file a complete Range Report if I do make the plunge... It might be fun to play with, and if it doesn't work out, then I could always move it on GunBroker and point any prospective buyers to the auction that just closed for a price reference.

Tight groups.

Old No7

[C. Cash]

Since we're all a bunch of enablers.......
Built by B.J. Habermehl of Central PA:  54 cal. Left handed Early Lancaster with Green Mountain Barrel, Tiger Hunt stock, Chambers Lock.

[Don McDowell]

Those rifles had pretty good barrels in them in the 70's and 80's. They used an odd sized ball. The worst part was the frizzen sometimes needed hardened, and timed, but other than that they were good, and won more than their share of blanket shoots.
So basically if the inside of the barrel is in good shape, the touch hole isn't burned out, and needing a new one, if the frizzen is hard enough to give a good shower of sparks, it shouldn't be much of a headache to get it to shooting, other than learning to sit still thru the Klatchswishboom..

[Hobie]

I am not all that experienced but based on what experience I have, inexpensive is not an adjective that goes with reliable or fun and flintlock.

[guido4198]

BY DEFINITION....if you acquire a flintlock...ANY flintlock...you are the kind of shooter who likes to "mess with" stuff.
If you're up for it...go ahead on and ENJOY.
Your fortunate to have someone close to you that is already a member of the certified(or maybe I should say...certifiable) crowd that enjoys them.

[Canuck Bob]

They are fun. It is like discovering guns for the first time again. Once you shoot a 5 shot group you will realize why cartridge arms caught on so fast. I went with a 54 Caliber Lyman lefty Deerstalker. A modern interpretation of a Hawkins flinter, kinda looks like an original but more deer rifle than Kentucky rifle. Reliable enough but accomplished flintlock shooting really requires a detailed knowledge of your gun and man do you ever learn about follow through after dropping the rock hammer. I'm terrible at both.

However there is nothing like loading a rifle with a scoop of charcoal powder, wrapping a lead ball in some old jeans material, lubricating with spit and torching a small pile of explosives near your nose with a rock! It sure is a happening when one goes off. They are a gadget junkie's dream!

If I get another it will be a flinter again but traditional in form and function. I would tune the length to make sure the barrel is in the perfect spot for loading with the butt resting on my boot. I would pick a plinking caliber designed for round patched balls, probably .45. My fingers don't handle small things like they once did or smaller would be fine. Cheap lead and powder and no desire to hunt big game is why. A stout load in a .54 kicks hard and goes BOOM!

[Nath]

Smoothbores for me
Today.



N

[Ysabel Kid]

OK, so maybe I've watched "Last of the Mohicans" or "The Patriot" too many times, but I really like the long, slim lines of this Kentucky-type rifle.

Two of my all-time favorite movies, especially LOTM!

I'd see if he'd take two c-notes cash in hand, and then give it a whirl!

[centershot]

I have also been thinking of picking up a flinter for deer/black bear hunting. What do you fellows think of the flintlock version of the Lyman Great Plains Rifle?

[Don McDowell]

I have also been thinking of picking up a flinter for deer/black bear hunting. What do you fellows think of the flintlock version of the Lyman Great Plains Rifle?

I won one about 30 years ago when they first came out. That thing would shoot right with my custom built Hawken flintlock that cost a tad over 600$ at the time.

[Canuck Bob]

I have also been thinking of picking up a flinter for deer/black bear hunting. What do you fellows think of the flintlock version of the Lyman Great Plains Rifle?

I picked up a Lyman Deerstalker for just such use. It is a 54 and within range this thing hits real hard. Health eliminated hunting but the flinter is reliable enough but does require a learning time.

[Marvin S]

Those Lymans have a fast twist and slow twist version. Fast for bullets and slow for round ball. Just thought I'd mention that.

[MacEntyre]

My recent rocklock experience agrees with the consensus...

$100 Pedersoli Kentucky .45... great shooter, but unreliable ignition... lightened the spring, tried different new flints... it might fire once every three times. I like it a lot, but it will take some work to become reliable.

$350 Lyman lefty .50 fires every time!

- MacEntyre

[MrMurphy]

Never owned one, but they're definitely interesting to shoot.... waiting for the flash THEN the boom while holding on target took some getting used to.