Minimum scope power for hitting small targets?

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:49 pm

For fun shooting what scope power would allow a guy to see and hit a pop can at what range?

How far can you see a can or clay pigeon in decent light?

For load development at 100 yards is 4X enough for reasonable precision? Some folks report good groups with 4X with appropriate targets.

Shopping for a scope is a lot of fun. It is apparent my preferences are lowest useable power and even a fixed. Searches have revealed strong and intelligent reasons for favoring either a variable or a fixed scope with and without AO focus. Let's avoid that discussion for now, please. This is going on a walking 223 bolt rifle. For now I'm trying to establish a low power range. Research would suggest that 4X would suit coyote hunting to 250 or 300 yards. The goal is adequate 300 yard precision with real good offhand handling.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:03 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:
How far can you see a can or clay pigeon in decent light?

That's really the question. If you can see your target clearly, a 0-power scope will suffice. The main advantage of a scope is the single fine aiming point rather than the magnification. I once had a 1.5-3x pistol scope mounted Scout-style on a .308 carbine that accounted nicely for numerous deer and feral dogs out to 250 yards or so.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:04 pm

6x fixed.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:05 pm

I would think this would depend a lot on the individual their eyesight. The only question you posed that I'll answer directly is the one on load development. I like to use at least a 10x scope for developing loads to help remove sighting errors off a bench rest.

Rob

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:33 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:For fun shooting what scope power would allow a guy to see and hit a pop can at what range?

How far can you see a can or clay pigeon in decent light?

idk. pretty far

For load development at 100 yards is 4X enough for reasonable precision? Some folks report good groups with 4X with appropriate targets.

Yes. More magnification makes it easier.

Shopping for a scope is a lot of fun. It is apparent my preferences are lowest useable power and even a fixed. Searches have revealed strong and intelligent reasons for favoring either a variable or a fixed scope with and without AO focus. Let's avoid that discussion for now, please. This is going on a walking 223 bolt rifle. For now I'm trying to establish a low power range. Research would suggest that 4X would suit coyote hunting to 250 or 300 yards. The goal is adequate 300 yard precision with real good offhand handling.

It will work. I think a 3-9X or 2-7x would be better. Or a 6x if you really do not want a variable. A fixed 10X or 12X is too much for your particular application IMO. I do not recommend AO for hunting.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Reticle size is what is important. (in relationship to the magnification). If you are trying to shoot a 2-inch target at 100 yards and you have a 3.5 MOA red dot or even a 2 MOA wide crosshair, your target is covered at 0-2 power and you are guessing (hoping) it is centered in your point of aim.

I use a 3-9 power on my scoped .22s. With practice, 200 yard shots on Prairie dogs are not that difficult.

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:36 pm

I really messed up my reply with answers inserted in Bob's quotes. My apologies.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:44 pm

My vision is quite good just got old guy focus problems.

I appreciate questions like these are hard to quantify. Research has indicated lots of folks like 6X as quite useable for my needs. My worry is the reduced FOV up close and scope wiggle offhand. The rifle currently has a 2.5X fixed while I do some shooting to get used to the gun. Someone in the US keeps buying up all the 223 ammo! These questions are about understanding the abilities and value of used scopes.

It suits my old geezer stubbornness to use a fixed scope but technology roars along for good reasons as well as bad. If a guy was to pick a variable 3-9 it seems the obvious standard for today with the larger range variables really closing the gap.

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:27 pm

One scope I forgot I had that works very well for a walking around rifle (I have it on a Rem 760 carbine in 30.06) is a Bushnell Banner 3x9 with the circle x reticle. At close range/running targets you at 3x just put the circle on the kill zone and you are in there. Longer ranges fine cross hairs in the circle at higher magnification let you be more precise.
http://www.bushnell.com/all-products/ri ... -x-reticle

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:14 pm

Canuk Bob,
I worked for W.R. Weaver Company ( at the time the world's largest manufacturer of telescopic rifle sights ).
I was the Quality Control troubleshooter for metal manufacturing and assembly.
I do not personally own a variable scope.
I will NOT personally own a variable scope.
Hope this helps you in your selection process.
Add to this 5 years of testing scopes in a 100 yard ( under the factory ) concrete tunnel, 90% of it with several Winchester Model 70,.458 Win Mags.
I have some real world opinions of what works and what does not.
Every year we bought the competitors scopes and I shot them to pieces.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:22 pm

I remember shooting soda cans with naked eye and 75 yards was about the point where they were getting too small. Same with playing cards. So if you want to shoot soda cans out to 150 yards, you might want 2x magnification or a little more.

Now those big Foster's cans were eminently hittable at 75 yards.

For your rifle it sounds like you want it more for walking around than anything else; I think you would like a lower power better. If you take a long shot, it's going to be at a coyote, not a prairie dog, so you don't need as much magnification; you can still take the shot. 6x, or even 4x, is probably uncomfortable for offhand shooting and quick target acquisition. Obviously .223 will take advantage of those higher powers but it doesn't sound like you use the gun for that purpose. Your 2.5 fixed sounds perfect for your stated purpose.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:24 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:For load development at 100 yards is 4X enough for reasonable precision? Some folks report good groups with 4X with appropriate targets.

For the last 20-25 years I've used a Leupold Vari XIII 6.5-20xAO with a target dot reticle for load work . In the last couple years I picked up a pair of 1970's vintage Redfield Tradtional 6-18AO scopes one with a dot and the other with a duplex . For load work from the bench I like any of the three . I have in the past gotten by with a couple Leupold Vari XIII 4.5-14AO scopes I also have but generally I want more magnification .

When I was deep in the cast bullet 444 thing a year or two back I did okay out to 100 yards working up loads with a old Weaver K6 or K8 .

Alot of the owrking up loads thing has to do with the specific target you use with a specific scope . Those old K6 and K8 scopes would do me no good with the benchrest targets I use when I use the high magnification scopes . And to be honest the larger black bull targets I used when doing 444 load work are not that great for the high magnification scopes .

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:38 pm

6pt-sika wrote: And to be honest the larger black bull targets I used when doing 444 load work are not that great for the high magnification scopes .

that is very true, choice of target makes a difference, contrast, etc. A black bull obscures the crosshairs, so you don't know where you are inside the bull. At the indoor range I shoot closeup at 45 feet, and if I use a 3/4" black dot, my shots are inside it, but not really centered. As long as your center point is inside the black dot you think you are good, but you can easily be to one side or the other. Switching to a yellow dot helped, because I could see the black crosshairs INSIDE the dot. But I was still guessing about where the center was. So far my best shooting, is when I have a small black hole inside a yellow circle. I can see my crosshairs and also see the center point.

So you should use the smallest bullseye you can, and a lot of magnifcation will just increase the size of your bullseye. Lately I have taken to punching a 1/4" hole in the paper, and try to shoot my .22lr through it. Misses make a second hole, but most enlarge the hole and the best ones create just a slight ruffling of the paper edge. But that hole is small enough that there's no question of where to place the crosshairs, plus a smaller target focuses your attention better than a big sloppy target.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:44 pm

For years my walking around rifle was a Rem. Model 788 in .223 with a K-8 on it.
Given my backround I was /am comfortable with high power glass on a offhand rifle.

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:16 pm

Jack O'Connor used 2 1/2 power scopes to replace his peeps with pretty good success. I once shot a buck at about 175 yards across one of my Grandfathers fields and after noticed my Weaver V4.5 was set at 1.5 power.
Also When I first bought my 338 I had a Burris Short Mag 4X scope that wasn't being used and used it until I purchased a 3X9. After I mounted the 3X9 my 400 yard groups were about the same 5 inch I got with the 4X.
So it depends on what you are hunting, inside 300 yards 6X is plenty I think and when I hunt big game I set any variables to 3X and seldom change them.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:07 pm

IMO, when it comes to hunting scenarios the most important thing is to keep the power and objective of the lenses of the scope in a ratio that will provide a minimum of a 5 mm pupil so that you have maximum light availability at dawn and dusk. A 6X32 will accomplish that task easily.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:24 pm

My varmint rifle ( Ruger #1 .22-250 ) has an early US made Redfield 6-18 on it. That scope is NOT overly bulky like todays variables. It has served well.
That said, I could guess what most said before I read their posts. All have their likes and dislikes.
You just have to find what YOU like.

OH,I forgot. Varmints are usually SMALL targets.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:11 pm

Mescalero, this is 2014, not whenever you were working for Weaver (neat job though!) and he's shooting .223, not .458.

A good quality variable is extremely reliable. Any of the Leupold Vari-X or VX II and III series will hold up to considerable abuse and not have issues. The higher-end optics, even more so. I rapid-fired about 400 rounds on semi (literally as fast as we could fire and load magazines) with a Nightforce 2.5-10X in a 7.62mm precision rifle and had zero issues (typical for Nightforce products).

A 2.5-10X or 2-7X would be my recommendation for the type of work you're describing, if you're shooting further out (300M+) i'd probably want the 10x. Not that you need it for a hit but if it's a small target like a coyote, you might just need the extra magnification.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:21 pm

Mr. Murphy,
Very good point, it is not the same world.
I think, ( usually gets me into trouble ); he was asking for real world advice, that was all I had to offer.
Yes, a steady diet of .458 is brutal; and extreme.
On a .223 offhand rifle, Canuk Bob could realisticly make a rimfire scope work just fine.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:42 pm

That shows I wasn't paying attention (wife tells me that all the time)

I mentioned a .22LR cause I sped-read and didn't see the .223

I use a 6-18 powerSF Nikon on my .223 but it's not for walking around. I have a 1.25-4 power Leupold firedot on my AR. I've tried 2x red dots on other carbines and it's tough to get a small group when your reticle is bigger than and obliterates your target.

JB · Post by JB » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:03 am

Canuck Bob wrote: This is going on a walking 223 bolt rifle. For now I'm trying to establish a low power range. Research would suggest that 4X would suit coyote hunting to 250 or 300 yards. The goal is adequate 300 yard precision with real good offhand handling.

My pick would be something in the 4-12X range. 4X is can handle most needs, but you'd have the upper power available for long shots at smaller targets.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:38 pm

my ballistics/physics college buddy used to shoot ground hogs to 500 yards and crows to 1000 yds with a Model 70 .243 and 20x Unertl. The day I shot it with him at starlings in his hog pen, 65g BTHP and a snippet of powder, at 100 yds, you could shoot the leg off a starling.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:50 pm

Bulldog,
Was it a heavy barrel?

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:04 pm

Yes, stainless Schillen barrel, 3/4" muzzle dia.

it was funny, his hogs knew the drill - a flopped or flopping starling on the ground would get an instant race of hogs to devour it.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:37 pm

Ignore the wobble shooting offhand. You cannot make it go away and if you ignore it and just shoot the gun your accuracy will amaze you. Wobble is just fine.
To your point of FOV, you can learn to ignore the scope entirely inside 50 yards and use your instincts and muscle memory. That said, exit pupil is important for speed and MrMurphy's recommendation is sound. I have a 1.25-5 for 150 and under( I can stretch that, but mostly don't) and a 3-9x40 Vari-x iic for under 325. I can't really shoot well over 300 yet so I don't as a general rule. The Nikon Monarch 3 2.5-10x42 is real high on my want list.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:41 pm

Mescalero wrote:Mr. Murphy,
Very good point, it is not the same world.
I think, ( usually gets me into trouble ); he was asking for real world advice, that was all I had to offer.
Yes, a steady diet of .458 is brutal; and extreme.
On a .223 offhand rifle, Canuk Bob could realisticly make a rimfire scope work just fine.

The only 458 Win Mag I ever owned was never scoped when I shot it but that thing was a handfull at the bench in a Ruger #1H . I have however shot quite a bit of 375 H&H and 416 Rigby with some pretty decent higher magnification optics without problems .

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:08 pm

My 1-4x30 $79 (scope & mount fom Academy Sports), with its 1moa dot works quite well out to 200+ yards. Once I figured how to adjust the thing! But, it's the dot size that makes it wok.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:14 pm

"shoot the leg off a Starling" .... That load needs just a pinch more powder or a sight adjustment would center em up.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:09 pm

I spent time getting used to the rifle fit and scope cheek weld. The best deal is Leupold M8s. The price is reasonable when available and one nice thing about fixed scopes is the short lineup to buy them

.

The prices are such that a 4X or 6X is affordable and suits my needs in other places. My research suggests that good glass is never a mistake. Warranty is important. The used market in Canada is quite strong due to the Leupold warranty success. Studying scope articles describing scopes have me convinced that fixed scopes are more dependable due to the inherent simplicity of their design. There seems to be some optical voodoo in play to make a variable work. To me it is not the design as much as the incredible tolerances and the stacking inherent in complex optical designs.

Variables do interest me as well and have a place but not for a first time medium range scope. Unless a super used deal falls out of the sky. The best riflemen, snipers, use both and sure do understand scope voodoo.

One thing the research did was kinda get me interested in learning to shoot at longer ranges. Minute of deer to 500 yards seems like a great challenge.

It appears there was once a Leupold M8 Compact series of 2.5X, 4X, and 6X (maybe) along with the standard series? There may have been a 6X Compact with an AO? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

The best advice above was shoot the little 2.5X for awhile. Starts this weekend with the improving weather.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:27 pm

As someone with lifelong vision problems, I will weigh in on this with my experience. Get the clearest scope you can get and the best quality. As far as the minimum power, it will depend on your vision. I can use a 3x and do fine out to 75 yards and see a 1 inch bullseye if it is orange. It appears as a very small dot. If your vision is better than mine, then use less power, or stay with something like 3x or a good variable if that is your choice. For best vision, I shoot left handed and use my left eye, for best short range control, I shoot right handed and right eyed. I am right handed, neither eye dominant, but my left eye does not have the astigmatism that my right one does. I have even started using low power reading glasses as my shooting glasses on guns without a scope. Having eyesight that is -9 on the diopter for contact lenses and -11 for glasses has always been a difficulty for me.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:35 pm

There are MANY variables in play in a variable scope.
Good on you for doing the research.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:41 pm

If I labeled it "star gazing " equipment I could get that 6x to you?

gcs · Post by **gcs** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:52 am

After someone mentioned Jack O'Conner, I remember some advice he gave on scopes a long time ago.
Basically, If you absolutely "needed" a scope, a fixed 2.5 in the East and fixed 4x for the west was all the scope anybody needed, unless you were planning some real long distance type hunts and then a 6x would be "ok".

Now this was primarily for big game hunting, and I can attest that a fixed 6x made a 350 yd Antelope a chip shot, and a 4x is fine for Whitetails in the East for about as far as you can see them.

So.... who am I to argue with Jack ?

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:23 am

It is easy to see that the fixed power scopes are going to be more durable than anything that has moving parts. Why do the cheap .22 rimfire scopes come in a fixed 4 power? Simple, they are cheap and relatively durable for the extremely low cost. I just don't find any good 4x fixed scopes for centerfire rifles anywhere I shop.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:26 am

Chuck 100 yd wrote:"shoot the leg off a Starling" .... That load needs just a pinch more powder or a sight adjustment would center em up.

my buddy made these loads so they went "pa" and didn't spook the birds. A starling with with its leg shot off cannot fly, and the hogs get it just the same.

I was talking about aiming at the leg

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:13 am

Bob, I see you are definately leaning toward a fixed power Leupold. Rest assured that you are making an excellent choice. I use variables but within a given quality level, a fixed power will be more rugged and optically superior (less lenses). I rather have a cheap rifle with an excellent scope than the other way around. And I like fine rifles!

I recommended 6X considering the small quarry (compared to deer anyway) and range of a .223. The 6X36 will be plenty light and compact. If you want a fixed power for simplicity, then you probably do not want AO. AO is overrated for hunting and just costs more money.

Get a 4X if you do not want to go that high. You can always stick it on a big game rifle if it proves not enough power for coyotes at distance.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:48 pm

Mescalero wrote:There are MANY variables in play in a variable scope.
Good on you for doing the research.

Now that there is a real good pun.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:13 pm

It was'nt a pun

But I do not want to explain it for umpteenth time.
The audience does not want to hear it.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:36 pm

I understand that a fixed power scope should theoretically be inherently more rugged.

But..I have a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-9X40 scope on my Ruger All Weather M77 MkII that I bought new in 1990. I mounted the scope in 1991. That rifle (in my hands and in the hands of fellow hunters who had problems with their own guns) has taken approximately 200 deer/pronghorn over the years, not to mention coyotes, porcupines, elk, bear...All I mean by saying that is that that rifle and scope combo has been carried hundreds of miles in rough terrain, through temperatures varying from 110 to -20 (F). It has been transported thousands of miles via pickup, airplane, horseback, and even a little by ATV. I used the same ammo for years (several boxes of Remington Core-Lokt I bought from one lot) and the only time I had to adjust the crosshairs was when I reloaded some GMX Hornady bullets for my black bear hunt. I've dropped it

, fell one it

, and probably committed other horrors I have blocked from my shameful, abusive memory.

I only mean by saying this that with the abuse I've put this combo through, it seems pretty rugged. I know there are exceptions...but I'd buy a variable scope from the major manufacturers with confidence that it was going to hold up. When I'm walking around my scope is usually set on 6x, and if I'm making a shot where I have plenty of time I usually crank it up to 9x.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:57 pm

Vance, I do not in anyway want to send the message that variables are sub-standard. If I was well healed a VX-2 2-7X28 Ultralight or VX-3 1.75-6X32 would already be on the gun. The variable shines when a guy has the same rifle to do multiple missions. My decision is based on what is right for me at this time, value and availability.

My decision also revolves around sticking with Leupold. We don't enjoy access to aggressive pricing competition for scopes up here. We pay basically factory suggested prices plus a little Canadian bump. That ultralight would set a guy back close to $450 taxes in and delivered. The VX-3 would be $550. The FX-II 4 or 6X would set a guy back over $400.

We also have to be careful with used scopes of recent manufacture. If it came from Cabelas Canada or Bass Pro it is a direct import from their American warehouse and must be sent to Leupold USA for warranty work. The Canadian distributor only warranties scopes from his Canadian distribution center.

Americans are the luckiest people on the planet by a huge margin when it comes to gun ownership, prices, and choices.

This keeps good used scope prices higher than you guys are used too. So a guy gets a break when the less desirable items like older fixed scopes come available. It turns out they are often of higher optical design and materials than the price would indicate as well. The best all around deal for me is a M8 in good shape with a refurb at the custom shop.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:38 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:
My decision also revolves around sticking with Leupold. We don't enjoy access to aggressive pricing competition for scopes up here. We pay basically factory suggested prices plus a little Canadian bump. That ultralight would set a guy back close to $450 taxes in and delivered. The VX-3 would be $550. The FX-II 4 or 6X would set a guy back over $400.

Leupold price-fixes. We used to could get discounted prices but now they are all VERY close to MSRP. The best deals I get on Leupold is to trade for a rifle with a scope I want and sell the rifle out from under. With a little finesse, sometimes the scope if free

Warranty is a big concern. I've never personally had to use a Leupold warranty, but those I know personally who have had to use it were very happy. But as you said, we are in-country.

Canuck Bob wrote: Americans are the luckiest people on the planet by a huge margin when it comes to gun ownership, prices, and choices.

Not picking a fight

I understand what you were trying to say..

But no luck was involved on the gun ownership issue. Lots of blood was shed to preserve those God-given rights. We're not done fighting, yet. Every generation of my family (been here since the 1600s) has fought.

On choices....I was looking up punches for a friend and was surprised to see export warnings on them! I see them all the time on reloading equipment but punches can be used for lots of things other than guns.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:44 pm

gcs wrote:After someone mentioned Jack O'Conner, I remember some advice he gave on scopes a long time ago.
Basically, If you absolutely "needed" a scope, a fixed 2.5 in the East and fixed 4x for the west was all the scope anybody needed, unless you were planning some real long distance type hunts and then a 6x would be "ok".

So.... who am I to argue with Jack ?

You have to remember scopes have come a HUGE way optics quality since Jack's day. During much of Jack's life, variable powered scopes were unreliable. A fixed power was about your only option in a super reliable scope.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:03 pm

Variable powered scopes are STILL unreliable.
There is ( in the world of mechanical reality ) only ONE way to affect power change.
The inverter lenses must move toward and away from each other to affect power (magnification) change.
Power change must be initiated by the operator.
The operator must do this through a mechanical contrivance on the OUTSIDE of the scope affecting parts INSIDE the scope.
That means many moving parts that must remain absolutly true throughout range of motion.
Anyone who thinks that this dance of the optic plane will remain constant in relation to a fixed aiming point,
is clearly dilutional.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:11 pm

Hi, Bob!

Lots of experience here for sure. I can't hold a candle to
some of the posters here, but my opinion's below anyway.

Holding anything more than 6X steady enough offhand is too tough
for me, so I wouldn't use more than that except off of a rest of some
sort, or in a sitting or prone position.

I have a Nikon 4X, with a 32mm objective that's quite nice on a .243
Handi-Rifle.

Note that the old Mosin-Nagant sniper rifles were only 4X fixed.
They shot very well indeed out to 300 meters!

I might go with a 4X, or a 2 x 7 variable, and I might stay with
a 32mm objective to get the line of sight as low as possible.
A 40mm will technically let more light in - but with modern optics,
will it let more light in than the human eye can actually use? 32mm
is smaller and lighter, too. I'm thinking 4x is better for me offhand.
You might be fine with 6x.

I have an old Tasco 4x16 AO on my 10/22. I don't think I've ever
moved it off of 5x, and I routinely shoot the remains of busted clays
on the 50 yard berm. The full clays are WAY too easy at that range,
but the smaller chips can present a challenge!

-Stretch

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:35 pm

4X or a 6X, that will make you happy.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:11 pm

4x will do for hitting golf balls at 100 yds with the .243 BLR at 100 yds.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:39 pm

Old Savage wrote:4x will do for hitting golf balls at 100 yds with the .243 BLR at 100 yds.

OS glad to see you came around to my favorite round of all time, the .243 Win.

You know the one that left that 6mm Rem. buried in the dirt years ago.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:41 pm

What does it take? Not nearly as much as some think. I had a couple 10/22's here and wanted to do some ammo test on them. One had a 4x, the other a 1x red dot. Groups at 50 yards were very comparable between the two and IIRC the one with the red dot shot the best group of the day. Another example would be the 1.25" groups I used to be able to shoot with a Win 94 at 100 yards using a Williams peep. Last example, sub 2" groups with a 4" Security Six at 50 yards.

Now the test on paper might not tell the whole truth. As my eyes get older I may be shooting less at the bullseye and more at the center of what is really a pretty big paper target. Hitting a gopher at 100 yards against a drab and busy background with little contrast or color changes may be a completely different matter. Still it goes to show that magnification, while a great thing IMO, isn't an absolute requirement. My gun's are hunting guns first, plinkin guns second and target guns last. But I do use them for ammo testing and paper punching so some magnification helps in that. When hunting I may be in timber that 20 yards is a long shot, semi-open country where 100 yards is likely, or the middle of a picked field where a fox/coyote may be hung up 300 yards away. Sometimes I may be in all three areas on the same walk. I've found that a 2-7x will get the job done in all those cases and at the range punching paper.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:18 pm

You have all helped so much. I have decided to shop in ernest for a fixed 4 or 6X Leupold. First I'll go to some stores and check out the FX-IIs and even a FX-I rimfire ultralight if available. Then a couple of M8s if available to compare current glass to older glass. I have a home for a 4X on my 9422 some day so that will be my first choice if a good price pops up. If I outgrow that I'll be capable of making an informed decision by then.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:39 pm

Well Mike, I like the .243 and both my rifles are very accurate but still ....

it is no 6mm Rem.