New kid needs help with lever action carbine

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:53 pm

Hey, been saving my pennies for a while now and think I have enough ($650) for a good lever action carbine. But I can't seem to find any old marlins in southern Ontario. So what would you guys and girls would recommend. I just want a reliable, accurate and nice carrying rifle in almost any caliber (preferably big enough to handle a black bear) thanks.

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:10 pm

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:12 pm

And by the way welcome to the club

bonusmarple · Post by **bonusmarple** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:38 pm

Does it need to be scoped?

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:39 pm

Welcome. Keep looking and do your research so you dont end up with one you dont want later. Do you want a rifle cal or handgun cal?

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:48 pm

No sir it does not but I would prefer if I could mount a peep sight though. I like 94's and never heard a bad thing about one but they seem to fetch a premium around here and when I find one at a fair price it's gone by the time I call about it. Also I'm open to all suggestions on caliber even if a bit hard to find.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:54 pm

Welcome to another Canadian, should be able to find a Rossi in .44 mag or .45Colt. Maybe a Marlin in .35 Remington, Winchester 94 in 30-30 or .32spl all fine leverguns.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:01 pm

It's hard to go wrong with a Marlin in 35 Rem. How far would you be shooting? Maybe a 30-30 would work better. Call around there has be Marlins somewhere. Welcome to the fire.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:04 pm

Marlin in 35 REM or 45-70. Welcome to the fire.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:04 pm

I'd recommend a .30-30 at least. Black bears have been killed by less, but I'd rather not take the chance myself.

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:05 pm

JerryB I have looked at a Rossi 92 that looked like Chuck Connors 92 but I read online that they have to be taken apart and slicked up in order to be reliable. Is this right or would a good cleaning be enough?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:09 pm

In my opinion the short-action Winchester (or Rossi) 92's and the Marlin 1894's are MUCH 'handier' than the long-action 94's or 336's, so unless you really need the ballistic difference offered by the long-action cartridges (like 30-30, 35 Rem, 444 Marlin, 45-70), I'd go with the short-action, (in 45 Colt or 44 Mag for your purposes OR in 454 Casull, actually, which gets almost 45-70 power out of the short action).

Despite the occasional negative reviews of Rossi firearms, if I were in your situation I'd seriously consider a Rossi 92 in 454 Casull.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:10 pm

Hi & welcome!

If Winchesters & Marlins are hard to find in your part of the world, whats the chance of
finding a Savage 99? good lever gun that came in a bunch of bear killer capable chambering's

ollogger

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:22 pm

hosehead wrote:JerryB I have looked at a Rossi 92 that looked like Chuck Connors 92 but I read online that they have to be taken apart and slicked up in order to be reliable. Is this right or would a good cleaning be enough?

Most of the 'slicking up' is stuff you can do yourself with some fine sandpaper and a file, while watching a Chuck Connors movie. NKJ sells a DVD that shows you EXACTLY what to do, and it isn't difficult. There are a few parts that you can swap out or upgrade if you want, but you don't really have to just to get a reliable and smooth gun. (I would get the metal cartridge follower for sure though, and I like NKJ's "safety button" replacement.)

There are also articles on the leverguns.com section about the topic.

http://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/rossi.htm

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:33 pm

I've only seen one savage 99 for sale and buddy selling it was asking a fortune for what kind of shape it was in. I'm really starting to like the idea of a Rossi 92 trapper in 45 colt though. I heard you can load 45 colt pretty hot and that would be as close I can to 454 casull in my area.

H_Talon · Post by **H_Talon** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:19 pm

+1 for the 99 ...

a 7mm-08. 308, 300 sav, etc ..
even though the marlin in 35 would be
a great woods gun .. and something they can
grow into.

I've bought a few on the online guns auctions
there might be a few listed in Canada you could
pick up .. just a thought ..

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:33 pm

hosehead wrote:I've only seen one savage 99 for sale and buddy selling it was asking a fortune for what kind of shape it was in. I'm really starting to like the idea of a Rossi 92 trapper in 45 colt though. I heard you can load 45 colt pretty hot and that would be as close I can to 454 casull in my area.

Are there regulations against the 454 Casull, or are they just hard to find there...?

For 'woods-walking' I really like my handy little 16" Rossi's - here's a picture of mine in 357 Mag.

(from leverguns thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55112)

One in 45 Colt should be able to use 'Ruger' loads with hard-cast bullets, and would be a bigger hammer than most of our ancestors tackled bear with. 'Punch' wise, it is up there in the 30-30 realm, but of course shy of the 444/45-70 level. For intentional bigger-game hunting, where shots might be taken 'out there' past 100-150 yards, I'd want a flatter shooting cartridge than 45 Colt or 44 Mag, and probably more power, but for closer-in hunting and general 'woods-walking' the 45 Colt would be dandy; it also will hold at least eight shots, even in a shorty version.

Now the Marlin in 357 Mag is about as handy to tote, but stepping up to their 44 Mags you get a 20" barrel, and a pretty hefty 10-shot gun, though still more compact than most of the 336 setups, aside from a 'Guide Gun' type shorty that you'd have a hard time finding off-the-shelf in other than 45-70.

The 92's (or 94's) are pretty easy to drill & tap (link) for a Williams FP sight, but the Marlins of course can accept the Williams FP-336 model which just uses the scope-mount holes; they are pretty compact - here's one on a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag:

The Marlins appeal to me due to fewer and larger parts, that mostly don't seem to need much 'fitting' if you are replacing or swapping them out.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:48 pm

If you're not looking at scoping I'd hold out for a post war Winchester pre64 94 carbine in 30-30. This will probably be fairly easy to find and fairly reasonably priced. I admit though I don't know the prices in your area but some here do. I will say not to let some finish wear scare you away. Minty ones are expensive and if you plan on using it won't be an advantage.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:47 am

I passed on a 1963 model 94 last Saturday at the LGS. 4 C notes OTD. It had a Williams peep sight, decent wood, a little bit of pitting on the right side of the receiver.

Around here, 650 will buy a pretty nice rifle!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:57 am

and Welcome to THE Forum.

I'm kinda partial to the Winchester 94 in .30-30. But all the other suggestions are almost

as good! Keep your ear to the ground, your eyes on the prize, and what you want will eventually pop up!

BTW, I also have Rossi & Marlin rifles in .45 Colt and feel that loaded to 44Mag specs, they are a bit slower (large case volume) but still every bit as good as the .30-30 say, out to 100 yards.

Good luck.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:46 am

Shooters Choice in Waterloo has a Marlin 336 in 32WinSpl for $395 and a Winchester 94 in 30-30 for $495.
You could check them out.

And welcome to the forum

ndcowboy · Post by **ndcowboy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:47 am

This fall I picked up a very clean scoped Marlin 45-70 for $450. They are out there.
One idea for you - I'm not sure how old you are as you refer to yourself as a "kid" - but if you are 21 or older, spend $30 on a C&R license, then use the auction sites like Gunbroker and buy any lever gun 50 years old or older and you can have it shipped to your door. Makes the whole United States your local gun store!

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:53 am

hosehead wrote:JerryB I have looked at a Rossi 92 that looked like Chuck Connors 92 but I read online that they have to be taken apart and slicked up in order to be reliable. Is this right or would a good cleaning be enough?

Most of them don't "need" any slicking-up beyond just being used a bit. Any new levergun's action will feel a little stiff, but that goes away after a few hundred cyclings of the action in the vast majority of cases.

Most of the "slicking-up" stuff that has come to many to seem necessary was in fact developed for Cowboy Action game players who want every possible competitive speed edge, even though the work done, taken to the extreme, can actually lead to reliability problems that might never occur with an unmodified gun. For the hunter and average shooter, most of this sort of work really shouldn't be done, beyond removal of any obvious burrs causing problems and very light polishing of friction points.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:04 am

ndcowboy wrote: Makes the whole United States your local gun store!

Hosehead is from Canada (nice Bob & Doug McKenzie reference too

)

ndcowboy · Post by **ndcowboy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:26 am

Streetstar wrote:
ndcowboy wrote: Makes the whole United States your local gun store!
Hosehead is from Canada (nice Bob & Doug McKenzie reference too )

Oops - didn't know Hosehead was from Canada.

But I do love a little Strange Brew.

North Country Gal · Post by **North Country Gal** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:26 pm

Given that you're in Canada, finding ammo in one of the pistol cartridges might be a challenge. Unless you are reloading, that could be a big problem for you. Check your local ammo situation before you get locked in on a cartridge.

Personally, I like the 30-30 for its versatility and availability of ammo. Works well, close in, but with the right load, gets you out there for some distance work, too. Ammo should be available any place that sells ammo, even out in the middle of nowhere. The 30-30 is plenty to handle a grouchy black bear and in the event of a charge, you're only going to get a couple of shots, anyway.

I much prefer the Marlin 30-30s for their smoothness, their ruggedness, their simplicity and their strength. You can take one completely apart and put it back together, again, on your own. You do not want to try that with a Winchester or one of its clones. That's me, though. Choosing a lever gun is also a matter of personal preferences, not just logic.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:43 pm

Go to a couple of your local boxmarts. Check the price and availability of the ammo they stock and sell. 30-30 is usually the cheapest and most available. It will serve you well for what u intend to do with it. If u can find a decent pre 64 win 94 for the $ u have to spend, u will never regret it.

. Welcome!

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm

Well I've looked on every site selling lever actions in Canada and I have found 2 levers that I like at a fairly local store (1hr drive). Both are Winchester 94's in 30-30 but I don't know if there pre-64's or not. But does the extra fit and finish of a pre-64 really matter in a rifle I'm going to use as a bush/atv rifle? To the post regarding my age I am only 15 but that does make me old enough to buy ammo in Canada. Maybe I should clarify that I'm not looking to hunt black bears but there are a ton of them around here and I like to have a rifle close by and want something handier than my sks

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:16 pm

Pre or post 64 Winchesters will do what you want just fine if its in good shape. If you find a pre 64 and use but not abuse it, it may gain value better than a post 64. Nothing wrong with a old Marlin either.
Also do not rule out a 32 special if ammo is available in your area. I have a 44 mag that's a great gun but the 30 wcf, 32 special and 35 rem are better all around rifles IMHO.
You have time don't settle for less than you want.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:31 pm

EdinCT wrote:You have time don't settle for less than you want.

Yep.

Many of us here have gone through lots of "almost good enough" and "almost what I wanted" firearms, before we got to a few "wow, this is perfect" ones.

southfork · Post by **southfork** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:59 pm

Why not watch for one of the model 1895 Winchesters in 303 British? It seems that virtually every 303 British levergun that Winchester made was shipped either to Canada or the UK, so they are far more common there than here. As you probably know, the 303 British has a LOT of stopping power. But I'm saying this a bit tongue in cheek, because you'd probably have to pay more for it than you've saved. Still, levers in 303 Brit ARE out there in Canada, and personally I'd really not want to face a bear with anything less. In Idaho bear country I carry MY 1895 303 every time over my Rossi 1892 in 480 Ruger.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:52 am

I have a Rossi '92 in .480 Ruger, and I have used it on an animal that was in all reality, way more than I should have. I was not ever in any real danger due to having 86er backing me up with a .45-70 loaded with some punch bullets. I also had another member from this forum watching our backs, and he hunts with a handgun that is in .50 Linebaugh caliber. HOWEVER, if that situation were to come up again, I wouldn't do it with the .480 caliber. I have seen 86er using a rifle he has in .303 and it has enough power and penetration for almost anything I would be hunting. If you can find a lever action in .303, you probably will not be undergunned for anything in your neck of the woods.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:17 pm

A .303 is slightly less powerful than a .30-06.

Only thing it might be chambered in would be a '95 Winchester or maybe a Savage 99, don't remember ever hearing of them being chambered in .303 but odd things happen.

A modern BLR in .308 or .30-06 would do anything he really needs to do except maybe tackle a large moose or grizzly. Odds are it'd do there too, but i'd want a little more power.

I still say a .30-30 would do fine for his stated purposes.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:09 pm

Haven't read all the thread but try looking up Ellwood Epps site in Ontario. I got a very clean pre-64 Win 94 with a Lyman steel receiver sight hardly used in your price range shipped to Alberta.

The Canadian site Gunnutz has a classified section and is Canada's main reference site. Check out the sellers rating and be very careful of anyone new to the site. I've used it but made sure the seller was well regarded by other purchasers. A wanted ad may get you something in reach for an inspection, my now preferred method.

There are many thousands of leveractions in closets all over Canada. You can be fussy and your price range will result in a very well made used like new rifle in short time. If you are going to scope go with an earlier JM Marlin. If not either a pre-64 Winchester or Marlin will suit you fine. The 30-30 is an ideal Ontario deer rifle and moose capable if needed with skill and good judgement. It has accounted for a massive pile of dead bears.

Do some research and make a list of needs and questions.
I recommend the option of using a receiver sight, some rifles do not come drilled and tapped for one. This usually amounts to two holes drilled and plugged on the left rear top of the receiver. don't bother with tang sights unless you can get some good mentoring.
I would pick a 30-30 rather than a 32 Special if you are new to shooting. Incredible ammo choice from Toronto and Tuktoyaktuk. and unlimited reloading bullet options compared to its ballistic twin the 32 Special. If you plan to not fuss with different loads and ammo choices the 32 Special is a dandy and usually a little cheaper.
If scoping the 336 is hard to beat and my 444 Marlin handles a scope well.

I recommend a leveraction for your needs. Outfitted with a peepsight or low power scope they are a hunters rifle. You will become a true hunter not a guy shooting from a bench and truck window. They carry the best of any hunting rifle with iron sights. Handle one for awhile and snap it to your shoulder will reveal why it was once considered the only deer rifle by millions of hunters and trappers. That is the magic of the slim flat sided action in the field. They are good for black bear and once you can hit what you aim at moose in the bush.

I love the old 303s but unless your gifted one watch out. There are trainloads of worn relics out there. The iron sights are hopeless for a newcomer to align. If that is your direction there are a number of cheaper Ruger, Mossberg, Savage and such bolt action economy rifles brand new and far superior to almost any 303. Pick a .308 and be happy and well armed for life. I would also avoid magnums for 5 years, I waited a decade of active shooting including the Armed Forces to buy my first ones and less than 2 years to sell both of them.

I also recommend a newcomer buy a rifle with iron sights even if a scope is planned.

The real secret is shoot a lot. Welcome to one of the best no nonsense gun forums anywhere.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:16 pm

Bob is right, Epps is a good place to deal with and they usually have a good selection of levers.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:17 pm

southfork wrote:In Idaho bear country I carry MY 1895 303 every time over my Rossi 1892 in 480 Ruger.

I don't know, The 1895 is a great rifle in any caliber, and I like the .303, but I would lean toward a heavy .480 if I was carrying strictly for bear protection.

For all-around use, the .303 is more versatile, for sure.

By the way, I have shot a bear in self-defense with an 1895 in .30-40 Krag, and it definitely did the job, I just would prefer a large, heavy, non-expanding bullet if I am carrying a rifle with the express purpose of defense from an in-your-face attack from a big bear.

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:20 pm

Well the local store I talked about in my last post was Ellwood Epps. I just checked their site when I got home from work and they have new Rossi 92 trappers in 44 mag which I think would be well suited to my needs and I really like the looks of a 92. Canuck Bob did you purchase this 94 recently? If so I was looking into it thinking I should act on this it's a good deal. Thanks for the help everybody.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:50 pm

Having owned a .44 Mag Marlin, i'd take the .30-30. You get a bit more range and bullet weight/shape is not an issue for feeding.

I'm not a recoil wimp but the .44 Mag in a carbine smacks you pretty good. It's about a 100 yard gun, maybe 125, where a .30-30 you can milk out to 200 if necessary (shooter skill dependent) if not farther.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:17 pm

I think a .44mag out of a trapper would be plenty for you. The 92's are my pick of all my leverguns. Until you start reloading you do have a lot to pick from in factory loads all the way up to Buffalo Bore ammo. I hope you are able to get it, you'll enjoy carrying and using it.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:40 pm

MrMurphy wrote:A modern BLR in .308 or .30-06 would do anything he really needs to do except maybe tackle a large moose or grizzly. Odds are it'd do there too, but i'd want a little more power.

I think they make (or made) the BLR in 444 Marlin, 45-70, and 450 Marlin, at least at some point, and those would be serious thumpers.

If you pick the 92 (or 1894 Marlin) in 44 Magnum, you can always get a long-action levergun in 444 Marlin later on and use some of the same bullets stepped up enough in power to double the range if needed. 444 Marlin has around 3,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, and yes, it tapers-off and drops faster than a 7mm Rem Mag, but there is clearly something to be said for 'meplat' when it comes to stopping things with fangs and claws.

This is my '44 Caliber Family' and covers just about all I can think of, all with a single bullet diameter.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:51 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:A modern BLR in .308 or .30-06 would do anything he really needs to do except maybe tackle a large moose or grizzly. Odds are it'd do there too, but i'd want a little more power.
I think they make (or made) the BLR in 444 Marlin, 45-70, and 450 Marlin, at least at some point, and those would be serious thumpers.

If you pick the 92 (or 1894 Marlin) in 44 Magnum, you can always get a long-action levergun in 444 Marlin later on and use some of the same bullets stepped up enough in power to double the range if needed. 444 Marlin has around 3,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, and yes, it tapers-off and drops faster than a 7mm Rem Mag, but there is clearly something to be said for 'meplat' when it comes to stopping things with fangs and claws.

They did , but in so doing , negated the one feature/advantage a BLR has over a traditional levergun (non Savage or win 88) , (using pointy bullets in calibers that can reach out and touch someone)

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:18 pm

Welcome aboard!

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:21 am

hosehead wrote:Well the local store I talked about in my last post was Ellwood Epps. I just checked their site when I got home from work and they have new Rossi 92 trappers in 44 mag which I think would be well suited to my needs and I really like the looks of a 92. Canuck Bob did you purchase this 94 recently? If so I was looking into it thinking I should act on this it's a good deal. Thanks for the help everybody.

I bought mine awhile ago. That 44 Mag is a dandy as well and being new has warranty. I have a 92 in 32-20 and the little action is a sweetheart. I'm not sure if the Rossi is drilled and tapped for a receiver sight but others here will know that. The Trapper will be very handy and folks here can give you advice on using them. I've never handled a Rossi. The 44 Mag will be range limited a bit, I once used a Ruger semi-auto 44 Mag. Ammo is not as available as it seems it should be. My go to gun is an old friend 444 Marlin. I prefer large bore heavy bullets. The 44 Mag would be a hammer on deer. I think I would still prefer the 30-30 though. It is a rare perfect balance between rifle and cartridge.

However a 92 in 44 Mag is never a mistake. It will not be easily scoped but if your eyes are young no big deal. It will also be a great first gun because having one in your gun case because you will always enjoy using it and it will load cheaply. I also consider my little 92 as an old timers tactical rifle. Many folks here carried levers as lawmen and the 92 lever is one of only a few centerfire rifles capable of a fast rate of fire and high capacity available to use in Canadian hunting fields.

Be aware our American friends are baffled by our gun laws and supply situation in Canada. If a product or option is recommended do a quick search for a Canadian supplier. You cannot import guns, scopes, reloading powder and bullets, and some American suppliers are not interested in shipping to Canada. As an example I don't think Buffalo Bore ammo is available here. However we do have a recognized Rossi 92 expert here in Steve known as Nate Kiowa Jones. I think he sells legally exportable accessories and a DVD on tuning a Rossi at http://stevesgunz.com .

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:04 pm

Bob, thanks for the positive post for the boy. I think it will help him.

hosehead · Post by **hosehead** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:42 pm

Well first off I want to thank everyone for their help it has really opened my eyes to different options. Second I'll update y'all on my situation. I emailed shooters choice about the 336 and no dice it's sold, Ellwood epps had 4 rossi trappers in 44 mag on saturday and they have 1 left when I checked tonight so i don't think thats happening. But I did join Canadian gun nutz and will check the classifieds when the waiting periods over so until then I'll keep my ear to the ground