Badmouthing .45 Colt - Will I/Won't I get Banned For it?

[GoatGuy]

I own a Smith & Wesson Model 625-7 Mountain Gun (a .45 Colt, 2002, pre-lock, stainless steel, N frame revolver).
Now check this out:
.4515
.451
.4505
.451
.451
.4505
and finally; .4465
The first six numbers are the charge hole throat diameter measurements. The last number, .4465, is the barrel throat diameter measurement!
This is not an isolated incidence for me with the .45 Colt. I've owned several revolvers in this caliber in the past. All had miserable accuracy and/or leading problems. This is my first double action .45 Colt and I had high hopes it would shoot as well as the .38 special, .357 magnum, .44 special, .44 Magnum and .45ACP revolvers I own/or have owned over the previous 5 decades. That was not to be.

I bought this 625-7 S&W shortly after selling a beautiful 4" 629 (no dash) I purchased, and soon after getting it home disappointingly discovered it had an over tightened, canted barrel! "Dang thought I", how can these companies send out junk like this at a premium price. Sold it a year or so later.

I found this used 625-7, w/box, hiding on a lower shelf in a counter at the LGS. Hey, a S&W has to be better fitted than my previous Ruger .45's had been. Having some 750 semi-wadcutter and round nose flat point bullets in my reloading cabinet, and plenty of appropriate powder on hand, it looked like something I shouldn't pass up. Pulling out my checkbook and filling out the paper work I took this fine looking revolver home. Loaded it and headed out to my pasture "range". After putting about 25-30 rounds through it I remembered my past quickly fading admiration for this caliber. Leading and mediocre accuracy. SOS! Visiting with my good friend and gunsmith sometime later I told him about the 645's problems. Having no pin gauges available he did a cast of the charge hole and barrel throats. The above are the results he discovered.

Why is it one can purchase any quality gunmaker's .38 spec, .357, 44 spec., 44 mag, 9mm,, 45ACP product and, in my experience, very rarely have to monkey with "out of spec" issues that apparently are prevelant to the DADGUM .45 Colt. How do you .45 Colt guys put up with it. Am I just snake bit on this chronically disappointing to me caliber, or does anyone else have this problem?

[cas]

Sounds like a S&W issue, not a 45 Colt issue.

[hfcable]

Sounds like a S&W issue, not a 45 Colt issue.

+ 1 indeed

[Thunder50]

I have heard of that happening when the fit is too "tight" with the barrel in the frame or the barrel is torqued down too much. It puts a "choke" in the barrel. You might be able to get some cast bullets and impregnate them with a fine valve grinding compound or "JB Paste" and shoot them and get rid of the "choke"

[madman4570]

Don't most .45 Colts have this ?
They still go by this age old concept ???


Way of preventing waxy lubricants from collecting grit which can damage the revolver's barrel. Colt, retained the single-diameter charge hole, so the bullet was grossly undersize as it traveled through the chamber throat. It was supposed to expand in the throat and be "swaged down", or reduced again in diameter, as it entered the barrel, but expanded unevenly producing poor accuracy.

I would love to hear what one of the guys at Freedom Arms tells you about their process and specs for the 45 Colt?

[walks with gun]

Isn't half the fun tinkering with them, who in there right mind would want a shooter perfect right out of the box. Besides all the young'uns now days think the revolvers dead anyway.

[J Miller]

GoatGuy,

My S&W 25-5 has .457" chamber throats and a .4515" grove diameter barrel.

My OM Ruger BH had grossly undersized throats that measured around .450 ±" and a .452" grove diameter barrel. The throats were reamed to .4525".

My Iver Johnson's imported Uberti made Cattleman parts gun is so close to perfect I've never needed to measure anything.

The S&W requires custom cast over sized bullets to shoot without leading.
The Ruger will shoot anything but prefers .454" softer cast bullets.

The problems are not from the design of the cartridge, but of the execution by the gun manufactures.
There is a mixture of gun specs from the old black powder days, the chambers, and the newer post WW II days, the barrel. Very few manufacturers care to do it right. It wouldn't be that hard.

Your S&W 625-7 can be fixed. First have the chamber throats reamed to .4525" by CAS ( he's a member here ) if he still does this. Then go to Beartooth bullets and buy some of his lapping compound or lapping bullets and fire lap that barrel. It might need to have the forcing cone recut too, hard to say.

But it can be fixed.

Don't condemn the cartridge by the inferior manufacturing practices and QC practiced by most gun makers.

Joe

[rogn]

Its all too common for the throats to be random. My 25 2 is pretty ttd in the chambers but had a lot of choke in the barrel, due to over torquing. The 45 cal barrel walls are thinner in this region so they collapse more easily. You can get"fire lapping" kits of varied cans of grit, as coarse as 320 upto 1800. Ive treated several guns this way and all I can say is that some improve greatly, some don't change and a few may get worse.Read up on the NECO system and at least follow the general procedure. Cylinder throats are a gamble with many manufacturers, probably due partly the low numbers produced, the wide sets of specs. My Redhawk was random in the throats so I sent the cylinder out for standardizing at 0.4525, now it soots lead accurately, with little leading. There was/is/ were people doing this service at a reasonable price. If you have more than one you can get the reamer from Brownell's . Reamer costs about 2 cylinder jobs. My 25 2 had good throats while theRuger didn't so I had the Ruger done. Also fire lapped my 45 Puma, and it improved. The one thing you didn't cite was the outrageously oversized SAAMI chambers in rifles like thePumas.I haven't foud an answer to that outside of custom reamers and custom barrels. Ill shut up now and go load some ammo for my 45s.

[hfcable]

Isn't half the fun tinkering with them, who in there right mind would want a shooter perfect right out of the box. Besides all the young'uns now days think the revolvers dead anyway.

me ! oh........ you did say in their right mind.......that leaves me out.

[Grizz]

you could get some dead soft lead firelapping bullets from Marshall and make a huge improvement. It's good that the chambers are larger than the barrel. here's an article on chamber honing:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/72

just like honing brake cylinders, remember?

and here's the results of firelapping:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/47

Bill is an old hand in the business and knows his stuff

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/63

hopefully you will get the same results

Grizz

[Les Staley]

I sent a 200th year Blackhawk in 45 Colt that wouldn't shoot for beans to Gary Reeder. Cyl. Mouths were all over the place..up to 457. He slugged the barrel, and rechambered a used 357 mag cyl to 45 Colt..held the mouths at .4515..recut the forcing cone.. Cost under $200 iirc..whatever..money well spent!! Best shooting 45Colt I have, 'crept for my Freedom 97....

[Streetstar]

Isn't half the fun tinkering with them, who in there right mind would want a shooter perfect right out of the box. Besides all the young'uns now days think the revolvers dead anyway.

Nope -- I'd be satisfied if my $1000 revolver was good to go out of the box

[Mescalero]

Goat Guy,
Watch out for advice from Grizz,
he has been trying to convince me for some time all I need is a shotgun.
I won't drink the kool aid.
But firelapping is real.

[GoatGuy]

Isn't half the fun tinkering with them, who in there right mind would want a shooter perfect right out of the box. Besides all the young'uns now days think the revolvers dead anyway.

Nope -- I'd be satisfied if my $1000 revolver was good to go out of the box

Streetstar - NOW THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!!! Finally somebody gets it. Couldn't have made my point any better than that. Thank you, sir.

Never had another caliber in a handgun that was as fussy as the blamed .45 Colt. I guess it keeps gunsmith type folks in business though, so there is good in all things. You just gotta look for it!

I'm a mid-range power kind of guy at his time of my life. Don't plan on hunting with a revolver and I have other things more suited to save my hide from 2 legged critters intent on doing me harm. I know myself well enough to know that I'll soon be on the lookout for a nice shooter grade 4", blued 29-2, and happily end my days poking .429 caliber holes in stuff at something over 1000 fps. And probably send this blamed .45 Colt cartridge PITA down the road.

Been fooling with guns of all types longer than I care to admit to ya'll here. Have fiddled with them, added parts and pieces, fiddled with working up the best loads for them, tuned up many of them, and have a drawer full of left hand holsters for many that have gone down the road. Don't care anything at all about sending a firearm off and pay someone to poke and prod around on it to get it where it should be from the factory. Right now I'm just looking for that last best N frame "partner" I'm certain I'll ever want. Yeah sure!

[Griff]

Sounds like a S&W issue, not a 45 Colt issue.

+ 1 indeed

+2. A gun issue, not a cartridge issue. I've got 4 .45Colt revolvers, 2 Colt SAAs and two import clones... none have this problem.

That'd be like blaming the .44RemMag cartridge for Rossi's oversized chambers. Doesn't track.

[Grizz]

I won't drink the kool aid.

Ya'But ya gotta admit that the shotty will hold a lot more kool aid than your .25, eh?

[GoatGuy]

Sounds like a S&W issue, not a 45 Colt issue.

+ 1 indeed

+2. A gun issue, not a cartridge issue. I've got 4 .45Colt revolvers, 2 Colt SAAs and two import clones... none have this problem.

That'd be like blaming the .44RemMag cartridge for Rossi's oversized chambers. Doesn't track.

Well Griff, Ive never owned a Colt SSA in .45 colt caliber. Never got the bug to own one as they always seemed kind of fragile to me. So I can't really speak to their efficacy. Only owned Ruger Blackhawks and now this S&W 645. None were ever were worth spit in the leading and accuracy dept.

All I ever read here and other places about the .45 colt are stories of how important it is to slug your bore and cylinder throats, make sure you try several different diameter bullets. Try some from this caster, or if that doesn't work try some from this other caster, etc, etc, etc. Or the other famous recommendation, send your cylinder off to someone else and have the charging throats reamed to x dimension. Or get some grit and waller it on a (has to be soft) bullet and fire a dozen or so through the bore to enlarge the throat. If all that doesn't work to your satisfaction then conjure up some mystic and head into the sweat lodge backwards, softly chanting the name Samuel Colt 8 times and blow a puff of cedar leaf smoke through the barrel and there you go, "it's all good now".

I agree that it's technically not a cartridge problem and that it is a gun issue. The problem is that all the guns I wanted to own don't produce worth diddly with that caliber, but mostly seem marvelously satisfactory with any other cartridge for which they are chambered. As in buy one, load cartridges, fire, eject, reload, holster and go on down the road. Guess I'm just too old and cranky to put up with stuff anymore that has to be coddled and stroked to get it to perform. Mea Culpa

[Buck Elliott]

All my .45 Colt revolvers have over-sized chamber throats.. i feed them .454" diameter bullets (in spite of their .4515" groove diameter) and everything works fine.. I've also pushed those same fat slugs down the barrels of several '73 levergun clones, with gratifying results

BTW... .4465" groove diameter would be about right for the .44 Henry Flat rimfire round...

[piller]

I have never checked my Ruger Blackhawk for dimensions, but it is one of the ones with a 4 5/8" barrel and the interchangeable cylinder for .45 ACP. The accuracy out of it is all I can ask for and more than I am capable of. Off the bench with stout loads of H110 pushing a Speer 300 grain jacketed flat nose, it will keep 6 shots inside the 9 ring at 25 yards, and that is as good as I can see anymore. If I would just get the lasik done, then it probably would be better. I don't have near the skill level of information level of the guys like Buck Elliott, Jim Taylor, 86er, DPris, Terry Murbach, Mike Rintoul, or several others on here, so I can't tell you what to do. I do suspect that it is a problem with Smith & Wesson for that particular caliber. Just an opinion, but my experience has led me to think that there are too many manufacturers with poor quality control.

[Sixgun]

Goat Guy,
Im with ya on the out of spec dimensions in the 45 Colt vs. other calibers........in post war guns. Pre-war guns can be all over the place in any caliber, except the finer target models such as the Colt Shooting Master, Colt New Service targets or Triplelock targets, or even Officer Models.

Ive owned, shot, and loaded for many of the pre-war guns and most of the post war guns(revolvers) with S&W being the worst in the 45 C., followed by Colt, and Ruger being the best of them, but not by much. Colt always was the best shooters in 357, most always being on the tight side, but I never did have an issue with any Ruger 357 SA either.

Dont have an answer for your 45 Colt. We will leave that for a good gunsmith.-----------6

[Charles]

The 45 Colt round is as accurate as any other, but unfortunate the guns all to often are not.

Starting life as a black powder round, both the charge holes and cylinder throats were on the loosey goosey large size. When smokeless powder came along, Colt didn't seem to care about changing specs and the rounds continued to rattle around in hog wallow chamber and pass through large cylinder throats. Colt continued to do this until WWII and they may still do it for all I know as I don't have an post-war Colts in 45 Colt.

Smith and Wesson didn't offer any sixguns in 45 Colt until after the war and when they did they mimicked the Colt large charge holes. When they got to the 25-7 they broke the code and reduced the cylinder throats to a decent .453.

The Italian clone SA followed Colt's trump suit and offered large .457 cylinder throats.

Along comes Ruger and their three screw BHs in 45 Colt also mimicked Colt in the large cylinder throats. When the New Model BH came along so did jacketed bullets and so Ruger cinched down the cylinder throats for jacketed bullets but went to far for cast bullets. They also continued to use large hog wallow chambers where the rounds sagged to the bottom and carbide sizing dies only made the problem worse.

When Lipsey ordered their run of Flatop 45, they held Ruger's feet to the fire on the specs and came out great with .452 cylinder throats and smaller charge holes. Thus far the Lipsey Flatops are the top of the Ruger heap.

I have no experience with Freedom arms, USFA or other makes, so I will stand mute on that subject.

The 45 Colt round continues to fascinate us because of it's history and panache, but it is a problem child to be certain. The problem with bad specs continued for 140 years through several manufacturers because we kept buying the darn things as made. There was no reason for manufacturers to change what was selling so well.

[Charles]

I have heard of that happening when the fit is too "tight" with the barrel in the frame or the barrel is torqued down too much. It puts a "choke" in the barrel. You might be able to get some cast bullets and impregnate them with a fine valve grinding compound or "JB Paste" and shoot them and get rid of the "choke"

Until recently every revolver made had some degree of constriction/ choke on the frame end of the barrel. Polish up the inside of the barrel and you can see the darn thing. It was never a problem until Veral Smith decided it was and since them folks have been shooting abrasive laden bullet down their barrel to get rid of it, a practice that gives me the creeps.

I have 60 or so revolvers in the house now and have owned hundreds more over the past 50 plus years and I have never felt the need to try and get rid of the constriction. I don't think I ever will feel the need to do so.

[Homer]

The 45 Colt round continues to fascinate us because of it's history and panache, but it is a problem child to be certain.

Admittedly, my mind tends to lean toward the simple, but I've not experienced the "problem child" aspect of the 45 Colt. I buy either RCBS 270 grain SWC bullets from Montana Bullet Works or the tried and true Keith 270 bullet from Leadhead Bullets, both sized at .452, and load them in my Ruger single-actions or Redhawk, and they all shoot accurate enough to kill a bunny at 50 yards or something bigger at twice that distance. In fact, there isn't a safe diamondback's head from close up out to 20 yards or so with either bullets pushed by 8.5 grains of Unique. Can I shoot three bullets into one hole at 25 yards? No, but I can't do that with any handgun, regardless of its accuracy. And do I want to do that? Nope, not with all the rocks that need shooting. So, at least for me the 45 Colt has been okay and not a "problem child" of any sort.

Oh wait, I do have a one BIG problem with the 45 Colt - I began using this cartridge long after tooling up (really tooling up) and shooting 44 Magnums for a long time. In fact I've recently tried to get my 44's to be just as effective, while remaining just as gentle as the 45 Colt just so I don't have to spend another fortune really tooling up for a 45 Colt. Now that's a problem.

BTW Charles, I'm not picking on you, only using your quote as a starting line.

[Chuck 100 yd]

You guys all have good points. I am a great .45 Colt fan with about 20 of them in the safe at this point (all Rugers ). My 7 1/2" Redhawk cylinder made the trip to Cylindersmith.com for reaming to
.4525 and after that it`s groups are just half the size they were before reaming.

I have one Ruger 7 1/2" Bisley BlackHawk .45 Colt that has uniform .451 throats. It don`t like .452 bullets real well but shoots jacketed250`s and cast 250`s sized to .451 like a laser. I tried .451 sized cast 250 gr Keith bullets just on a hunch and at 25 yd. from a rest I got a one ragged hole 5 shot group.

Like Charles said, The Lipseys flat tops are done well in chamber/ throat size. I have a pair of those fine little .45`s.

[1894c]

I'll just stick with the .45ACP and call it good...GOAT-GUY, you sir are entitled to your complaints, you're experience and what others have shared is exactly why I have stayed away from the .45 (LONG in frustration) COLT... :O

[vancelw]

Dangit. I shouldn't have read this thread. I was perfectly happy with my SAA, Redhawk, Freedom Arms, and (Miroku) 1892 in .45 Colt until I found out how defective they were

Next thing y'all gonna tell me is Santa ain't real.

[Blaine]

FWIW, I've had two Ruger SAs...a .41, and a SBH that shot patterns....My 629PP shoots ORH with a Speed Dot.....

[7.62 Precision]

Badmouthing .45 Colt - Will I/Won't I get Banned For it?

Yes. Yes, you will.

To a desert island. With only one knife. And only one gun.

You can choose any one you like, as long as it is a .45 Colt.

[JerryB]

7.62 did you check the rule book, is that fair?????????????

[Mescalero]

Maybe not fair, but funny.

[Malamute]

Admittedly, my mind tends to lean toward the simple, but I've not experienced the "problem child" aspect of the 45 Colt.

I havent either. I've owned two Colt Buntlines, and several Rugers, both Blackhawks and Vaqueros, all shot from good to outstanding.

I don't think the Lipseys guns have a corner on the tight chambers market. I believe all the later Rugers have been better as far as chambers and throats, and think that predates Lipseys versions. I may be mistaken, but that's what I recall talking to someone that does a fair amount of work with them. The newer barrels are remarkably smooth compared to older ones also.

Regarding the tight Smith barrel, is that a true groove diameter? It isn't as simple to measure a Smith barrel or casting, as its a 5 groove. Measuring directly across with a caliper gives a land on one side and a groove on the other. The land height needs to be figured in, or use a different instrument.

I've heard of widely varying chamber, throat and barrel dimensions, but haven't had trouble in my limited experience.

[GoatGuy]

Admittedly, my mind tends to lean toward the simple, but I've not experienced the "problem child" aspect of the 45 Colt.

I havent either. I've owned two Colt Buntlines, and several Rugers, both Blackhawks and Vaqueros, all shot from good to outstanding.

I don't think the Lipseys guns have a corner on the tight chambers market. I believe all the later Rugers have been better as far as chambers and throats, and think that predates Lipseys versions. I may be mistaken, but that's what I recall talking to someone that does a fair amount of work with them. The newer barrels are remarkably smooth compared to older ones also.

Regarding the tight Smith barrel, is that a true groove diameter? It isn't as simple to measure a Smith barrel or casting, as its a 5 groove. Measuring directly across with a caliper gives a land on one side and a groove on the other. The land height needs to be figured in, or use a different instrument.

I've heard of widely varying chamber, throat and barrel dimensions, but haven't had trouble in my limited experience.

Malamute - No bore cast was made. .4465 is the barrel throat diameter measurement!

Why do you ask? If you read my initial post, and comprehended what I wrote, that info was noted.
If you read my original and subsequent posts, you will note that I was not inquiring how well you liked, admired and were satisfied with your .45 Colt revolvers.
If you read my posts you must have noted that I am not interested in jumping through hoops or spending additional sums of money to get this 625-7 Smith where it will "possibly"be as correct in dimensions as of those you own.
If you read my post you will note that this was not my first rodeo with the pee poor attention to quality I've found in revolvers in this caliber.
If you read my posts you will note I state my experience is that revolvers of this and other makes simply DO NOT have difficulty in correctly crafting a fine shooting arm in popular calibers other than your vaunted .45 Colt.
FINALLY, if you read this entire thread you will note that I'm not the only one of your levergun brothers who finds less than stellar attention to detail made evident by these others experiencing similar oversize/undersize/need for firelapping/, etc., etc. with the .45 Colt chambering in revolvers both single and double action.
I hope this has helped you understand what I meant by my disappointment with all my experiences with the .45 Colt cartridge in several pistols. Finally, that said, I give up and will further pass on future opportunities to acquire ANY revolver so chambered. Hey, that just leaves more .45 Colts out there for the rest of you fellers. Ain't I thoughtful?

[Blaine]

Agonizing for a word that describes the internet; Angle Soft??

[Malamute]

Goatguy, please read my post again. How was an inside measurement achieved on a 5 groove barrel (which is standard for Smiths)? You had mentioned a casting, perhaps that was a different gun?

.451 minus .4465 equals .0045, which isnt out of line for a rifling land depth (a bit shallow perhaps for some calibers?). If someone simply stuck a caliper in the back end of the barrel, it isn't going to give groove diameter, it will give a measurement based on one groove and one land. A casting could be measured with a different instrument that compensates for the irregular pattern of an odd number of rifling grooves. That number, if not a true groove diameter, may not be as far off as it sounds at first. My Smith 29, measured by just sticking a caliper in the bore, measures .423", indicating a land of .008" if we use .431 as a presumed starting point for the groove diameter of the 44. Many of the Smith 45 barrels had shallower lands, but not sure about the 45 Colts.

Sorry if you felt some of us were off your chosen topic. You had asked if others had had this problem or how we put up with it. From your post it sounded like you felt there weren't any good 45 Colt guns without tinkering with them, but that hasn't been the case for many of us.

So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you have in your possession a pre-lock 45 Colt mountain gun? Perhaps I misunderstood that part, did you only have one of them, and its been sold?

[GoatGuy]

So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, you have in your possession a pre-lock 45 Colt mountain gun?

Yessir, it is a pre-lock .45 Colt Mountain Gun - - Model 625-7

[Malamute]

If you aren't in a hurry, I could be interested in it.

Work has been slow the past year, I fell and injured my shoulder and back. I'm starting to get back to speed. If you still have it when I get caught up, we can discuss it if you'd like.

[GoatGuy]

If you aren't in a hurry, I could be interested in it.

Work has been slow the past year, I fell and injured my shoulder and back. I'm starting to get back to speed. If you still have it when I get caught up, we can discuss it if you'd like.

That would be fine with me. Not in a major rush. Keeping my eye out for a S&W 29-2, but they are gonna be few and far between around here in a price that would work for me. Sorry to hear of your injury, and sure hope things start looking up for you sooner than later. I'll add that need for your continued healing in my prayers. Keep in touch - John