OT - Which 45 Colt revolver for a Win 45 Trapper ????

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:55 pm

I have been handgun hunting ( along with Rifle ) for deer for quite a few years.

I have a 357 Max Ruger Blackhawk which is starting to show some wear,

I Was considering a 41 Mag Blackhawk ( don't like 44 Mags ) for a replacement.
Now, since I have become the owner of a winchester ( USRA ) Levergun in 45 Colt,
The urge to hunt with same is real compelling .

So, I am considering a revolver in 45 Colt: Now , What to buy,???

I like the Blackhawks ( have 3 ), But the Redhawk is also nice and has
notches for a scope ( which I probably will not use ). Now If I consider
a Redhawk, theres the 454 Casull in which I can also use 45Colt.....
Taurus does not seem right with a Winchester ) My feelings ).
Colt and others won't take HOT 45 colt loads.
And my brain spins on and on......
Gunshow Sat,,,, and I'm in a buying mood.....

So , any thoughts, wisdom, whatever?????

Oh: Dies,brass,bullets on the way....So I'm kinda
locked into a 45 colt or 454 Casull

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:03 pm

The only guns that come to mind for Me are the Ruger Blackhawk/Bisley or the New remake of the Redhawk. the .454 is head and tails above the Colt but if You are only deer hunting would You need that much gun?? Good Luck.Jim.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:37 pm

Heft a Redhawk (.45 Colt) and a Super-Redhawk (I think that's the only one you can get in .454 Casull). To me, the Redhawk is a much nicer 'feel' and I'd get a Redhawk .45 Colt and it can 'go with' a rifle in .45 Colt OR .454 Casull.

Having shot .454 Casull from an Encore pistol, and having shot .45 Colt very HOT loads from both Blackhawk and Redhawk, I don't feel like in my hands the extra power of the .454 is of any use from a handgun; my decreased accuracy more than negates the extra power. In the rifle, it is another story, so for me, it makes sense to have the handgun in the .45 Colt (but in a sturdy gun for stiff loads), and then use the long gun if I really want even more power.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:41 pm

bisley 45 colt.I bought one and love it.the bisley grip does help with the recoil of strong 45 colt loads.
pete

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:43 pm

txpete wrote:bisley 45 colt.I bought one and love it.the bisley grip does help with the recoil of strong 45 colt loads.
pete

+1 But I also like to carry my OM Vaquero with the 7 1/2" barrel.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:57 pm

You didn't say anything about money. If that doesn't seem to be a huge concern then I'd go with a Freedom Arms Premier Grade Model 83 in 454 and get the extra 45 Colt cylinder. I know they're a lot of money, but, you'll never regret it.

It sounds like you're familiar, or not afraid of hot 45 loads, so a 454 is right up your alley. And, you can shoot 45 Colt's through it too.

The Super Redhawk in 454 is a very LARGE revolver. Too big for my hands, let alone pack it on my hip all day trapsing through the woods. Nice gun, just big.

mad mucus · Post by **mad mucus** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:23 pm

G'day Oldmax,

Live a little and broaden your enjoyment levels... buy a SS Ruger Old Army with a 7.5" barrel and get y'self a Kirst Conversion cylinder for the .45Colt rounds(Can they handle stout loads?).

Seriously,
Mucus

Boomer45 · Post by **Boomer45** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:24 pm

Have to agree that the first choice would be the Freedom Arms revovler. That is one very high quality firearm. If you can find a Ruger Accusport Bisley 45 Colt I would grab it. Stainless w/5 1/2 inch barrel and an extra 45 ACP cylinder. They can take the hot 45 loads with no problem

Boomer

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:35 pm

Smith & Wesson Model 25-5, 4" bbl.

Noah

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:52 pm

i would second the idea of the freedom arms pistol I love mine. I actually have two. One in .45 cal the other in .22/22lr, both are in the primere grade.

[img][img]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20 ... 94/008.jpg[/img]

[img][img]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20 ... 94/007.jpg[/img][/img]

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:53 pm

Well, thanks for the quick replies...

I have been shooting The 357 Max, 41 mag in a 24 OZ Taurus and
a T/C in 35 Remington. None seemed to be to bad for recoil.
I never liked Hot 44 Mags, Different type recoil.
If a T/C Encore is a handfull with 454 Casull, than that may not be a good
choice ( even downloaded somewhat ? ). My thought was, with the 454
Casull, I would start at reduced load and work up to a comfortable
load. ? Probably wind up with a 45Colt load ???

I didn't realize the Redhawk had two flavors, The 45 Colt is only in The
Redhawk?

As for 454 for Deer, I agree, probably not needed. Where I hunt ( Maine )
there are some deer over 200 lbs ( my best 195 dressed ) so I
figured a Good 45 Colt Ruger type load would be adequate provided
it was a reasonable shot . The point on accuracy more important than
power is well taken, I try to make clean kills.

I had read some on he Freedom Arms revolvers, and from your comments, sounds like a good gun,
I'm afraid to check prices , might get sticker shock...

As for 45 Hot loads ( Ruger load data ),
My expectation is that they would be in the class of a 41Mag or the 357Max, ?? Am I wrong here ??

Well , thanks all for the comments, Gotta go check out your leads...

Yance · Post by **Yance** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:11 pm

Oldmax;

Look long and hard at the Blackhawk Bisley .45 Colt. I use 22 gr IMR 4227 under a 285 gr LBT WFN gas checked bullet for both it and my Marlin 1894LTD. It'll thump!

With many of the new Rugers be prepared to do some manual labor and spend a very few more bucks.

Cylinder throats will likely be .450" or so, and where the barrel is torqued into the frame there will probably be some constriction. Mine slugged .448" at the forcing cone.

I hand lapped the forcing cone area and sent my replacement cylinder to CAS (cylindersmith.com) to be reamed to .4525". Shoots "groups" now instead of "patterns".

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:47 am

The 45 colt can be reloaded to exceed the performance of the 44 mag in a Ruger.Larger Meplat & bullet weight for better TKO.

Ruger only Factory loaded ammo can also be purchased from Buffalo Bore.I also recommend cylindersmith.com for the obligatory cylinder throat reaming if you decide on a blackhawk(if the gun shoots patterns).But for a realistic deer hunting load in 45 colt all you need is well constructed 250 grain bullet moving at around 1000-1100 fps.

(Yance posted a nice load)

Yance · Post by **Yance** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:11 am

Another "plus" for the Bisley is the steel grip frame. Don't know about new production Blackhawks but older ones use aluminum.

My load isn't "pushing the envelope" using cast bullets. MAX load for 250 gr jacketed bullets in 24.0 gr, and in the .44 Mag a 300 gr jacketed bullet MAX charge is 19 gr. My load is MUCH more comfortable than factory 240 grain .44 Mag loads.

AndyM · Post by **AndyM** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:28 am

If you can clear your mind from shooting the super hot Ruger loads - why not consider the true classic - the Colt SAA in 45 colt or maybe even the new Ruger Vaquero. If you are just looking to short range deer hunt - I am pretty sure both of these 2 guns would be able to be loaded to blow a cast slug through a deer shoulders at 100 yards.

You already own Ruger Blackhawks - now get a Colt.

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:16 pm

Update: Stopped by the one of the local gun shops, Asked about 45 Colt.

Guy started looking at the Semi-autos to see if they had any!

I explained what a 45 Colt was, He called anther guy over, At least He
new what I was looking for, Showed me a Ruger ( looked like 5 1/2 inch )
with fixed sights. Nice feeling revolver, But I want a Longer barrel
adj. sights. Nice feeling gun though.

I had thought of a Colt, but I do want to get loads up to 44 Mag level
( tx jandgundri ), and shoot the same loads in the Winchester.

As to the Bisley, I kinda like the feel of the Ruger new model,
just what I'm used to..

So, getting closer to a decision, Will check out the Gun Show Sat..

Thanks All, Great input, Almost as Good as Hunting Camp.
But probably more Reliable,
At camp, They tend to get a little, well
verbose....

More Questions:
Why .451 and .452 Caliber bullets in 45 colt ? i can understand lead being larger diameter, But I see the same weight (JHP) in both dia. . ????

Also, referances to bore dia. and cylinder dia.: Is there more to reloading
a 45 Colt than the other calibers ???

Am I getting into a whole new different field of reloading???

Yance · Post by **Yance** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:00 pm

oldmax wrote:Update: Stopped by the one of the local gun shops, Asked about 45 Colt.

Guy started looking at the Semi-autos to see if they had any!

I explained what a 45 Colt was, He called anther guy over, At least He
new what I was looking for, Showed me a Ruger ( looked like 5 1/2 inch )
with fixed sights. Nice feeling revolver, But I want a Longer barrel
adj. sights. Nice feeling gun though.

I had thought of a Colt, but I do want to get loads up to 44 Mag level
( tx jandgundri ), and shoot the same loads in the Winchester.

As to the Bisley, I kinda like the feel of the Ruger new model,
just what I'm used to..

More Questions:
Why .451 and .452 Caliber bullets in 45 colt ? i can understand lead being larger diameter, But I see the same weight (JHP) in both dia. . ????

Also, referances to bore dia. and cylinder dia.: Is there more to reloading
a 45 Colt than the other calibers ???

Am I getting into a whole new different field of reloading???

AUTOS!!!

Why am I not surprised????

Was that a New Vaquero the other clerk showed you? Ruger has gone back to their "original" grip frame on the New Vaquero, haven't hefted a New Blackhawk.

The New Vaquero is also a bit "slight" of frame if I'm not mistaken. It feels like they've lightened it a bit.

,451 and .452 bullets.

.451 and .4515 (Sierra) are intended for use in .45 ACP. Since the case headspaces on the mouth chamber need to be "close" so some won't feed and function with "fat" bullets. With revolvers and cast bullets usually the fattest bullet you can use and still chamber the cartridge is better.

Since I shoot VERY few jacketed bullets I tend to think in cast bullet terms. It might help to know just what you have in mind for loads, jacketed or cast.

There's no difference in loading for the .45 Colt and any other straight wall cartridge. The "difference", chamber throats & groove diameter, I was referring to mostly concerns recent production Ruger revolvers.

Groove diameter has "the last word" on bullet size. Bullet diameter should be AT LEAST the same as the barrel's groove diameter. My Bisley mics .452" groove as it should, but since I'm shooting comparatively soft cast bullets I size then .454". The SMALLEST I'd go would be .4525"-.453" to maintain a good gas seal to prevent leading from gas blowby.

Next concern is where the barrel threads into the frame. Over the past several years some of the assemblers at Ruger have stopped taking the time to properly FIT barrels to frames preferring to "Blue Torque" them in, never mind how it hurts the barrel. As the gorilla torques the barrel into the frame attempting to get the sights aligned the threaded barrel shank is compressed like a draw collet. In the case of my Bisley that compression was .004". That ment that when the bullet entered the forcing cone it was sized down to .448" before it rattled down the remaining 7" of barrel. Guess how it shot!!! Couple of hours of sweat, casting lead laps and grinding with Aluminum Oxide grits finally opened it to match the rest of the barrel.

Now we finally have a tube that's the same from end to end and we can talk about the cylinder throats.

Since the groove was .452" the throats SHOULD have been .4525"-.453". Mine were .450"! I destroyed my original cylinder trying to "polish" the .002" out and wound up buying a replacement. This one ALSO mic'ed .450". That's the one that went to Cas at cylindersmith.com.

Life's MUCH better now that my Bisley shoots "groups" rather than "patterns".

I could have saved a LOT of frustration and work by just spending 3 times the $$$ for a Freedom Arms, but what fun/satisfaction would that be??

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 pm

I have an old 3 screw Blackhawk in .45 LC with 7-1/2 inch bbl and by far, it is the most accurate handgun I have ever owned. I carry it with my Rossi Trapper and am quite happy with the combo.

Usually, anything from .451 to .452 will shoot well but each one may show a preference. My short arm likes .451 better so I load that in both rifle and pistol.

I'd say get what feels good in your hand but you can't go wrong with anything from "The Big 3" makers.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:26 pm

The new Vaqueros will not take the same loads as the old Vaqueros or Blackhawks. They are in between the Colt and the older Rugers in strength. If you want the heavy Ruger loads you need to get an older gun.

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:12 pm

Well still looking. It seems all the Blackhawks now have the internal lock..

I see mention of a Blackhawk Hunter in Stainless. no lock.
But with a Top rib on the barrel and Scope clamp groves...

Anyone shooting one of these, Are they any stronger than the Blued
Blackhawks??? Is the quality any better????
I wasn't to keen on SS, but a Holographic sight may be an option for " Old Eyes ""

Also: From reading the comments on Forcing cone, gun tuning, etc....

How old a gun do I need to find to get a Quality Revolver...
Or should I just get a Freedom Arms ???
I'm afraid , after spending big bucks , I would not want to get it dirty..

AND, Thanks for all the input, It is taking me some time to digest the
technical aspect...
I really don't want to be sending a gun out to be tuned.
Just want to buy a decent shooter and , well, , go shooting.....
Thanks again, Signed : The OLD Novice...

Yance · Post by **Yance** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:27 pm

oldmax wrote:Well still looking. It seems all the Blackhawks now have the internal lock..

Also: From reading the comments on Forcing cone, gun tuning, etc....

How old a gun do I need to find to get a Quality Revolver...
Or should I just get a Freedom Arms ???
I'm afraid , after spending big bucks , I would not want to get it dirty..

AND, Thanks for all the input, It is taking me some time to digest the
technical aspect...
I really don't want to be sending a gun out to be tuned.
Just want to buy a decent shooter and , well, , go shooting.....
Thanks again, Signed : The OLD Novice...

Internal lock??

There are still plenty of "older" New Model Blackhawks out there at fairly decent prices.

How old to be a "good" one, I don't know. For some reason '94 comes to mind, but like Hillary I might "disremember" about the year.

I DO know that a few weeks back I picked up a .357 Blackhawk 6 1/2" blue that "mic'ed" great.

I size my .38/.357 bullets .359-.360. All 6 throats mic'ed .358 and the groove is .357 as it should be, and there's no hint of constriction where the barrel screws into the frame.

Ruger's website has their entire serial number history available.

http://tinyurl.com/3t7jas

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:17 am

Thanks Yance,,, So , a pre 90's Ruger is probably a good quality gun ???

I do have a early ,New model 357 ( No warnings ) VERY good trigger,
shoots good also. I thought it may have had trigger work ( Has Pearl grips )
?? Wonder if the action is ' Factory ' ( Ive never had it apart )..

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:20 am

Oldmax,

Currently only the Blued New Model Blackhawks, Single Sixes have the internal locks. Their model number is followed by the letter "L". The New Vaqueros also have the locks, as did the 50th Anniversary Flattop .357s and .44s.
The stainless Blackhawks, Super Blackhawks, Bisleys, and Single Sixes do not have it yet.
The double actions do not have it yet. The New Bearcat does not have it yet.

Basically the locks started in 2005, anything made before that will be lock free. And you can sorta tell by looking because the lock equipped Blackhawks will usually have the new black plastic checkered grips.

If you are afraid to shoot a nice gun, then why be in the shooting sports. Part of the enjoyment is owning AND using nice guns. Otherwise why bother?

Joe

edwardyoung · Post by **edwardyoung** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:11 am

If you're interested in trading your 357 Max, this guy is looking for one and has handguns to trade. He might have somthing that interests you.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24083

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:01 pm

J Miller, I agree, but I guess I'm just old fashion ( cheap ? )

I think I'll keep looking for a Older Ruger, And, part of the enjoyment
is the Hunt....

E Young , Thanks,,I saw that " Wanted Ad " I'll probably just keep mine,
still shooting it, trying to get it shooting decent groups again...

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:27 pm

oldmax wrote:I see mention of a Blackhawk Hunter in Stainless....Anyone shooting one of these...

I believe 86er had a range report with one of those in .45LC.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:33 am

Came to this one late, but the reason I got My super-redhawk is the long hefty feel of it. I like knowing I can shoot a monster Casull load if I need to, and because it's built to take power like that, anything less is smoothed out really well.
It also comes in 7.5 and 9.5 in barrels. Mine is a 9.5.
But then, cowboy style single action and modern style double action are two distinctly different worlds, and you almost certainly know which style you prefer. I guess my point is "don't scare yourself off a Super-Redhawk". You may actually prefer the way it shoots your hot mustang loaded .45's.

I envy you your dilemma!

Gryphon