Uberti .45 Colt revolvers

[Tactical Lever]

This has probably been rehashed a dozen times, and I'll apologize in advance... I have a .357 Uberti 1873 revolver, and I like it, but I was thinking of getting a .45 Colt in one (maybe). Or maybe a Ruger.

My question being that I see the Ubertis are offered in .44 mag, so are the .45 Colts made with the same frame and steel? I don't think there would be a difference, but I hear that they are not recommended with heavy loads.

I'm not trying to turn it into a short .454 Casull, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the (working) pressure rating of these. Could not find any literature to support "high" pressure.

And of course opinions vary of how much they should be theoretically good for.

[Malamute]

I cant answer all your questions, but the difference in the amount of steel in the cylinder walls in a Colt sized gun seems to be significant in what level loads they will take. That's one of the main reasons Elmer Keith went primarily to the 44 spl when working on heavier loads, he had some 45's come apart, the 44's would consistently take heavy loads without issue.

[Centennial]

Where the cylinder bolt stop notches are on a 45 Colt type cylinder, they're extremely thin.
Ruger offsets their cylinder stop/bolt notches to a thicker area of steel.
I'll echo what Malamute said for the rest.

[Tactical Lever]

Ok, I realize the steel is thicker, but its not that much thicker. The SAAMI pressures for the .45 are 14 000 psi, and the .44 mag are 36 000.

Seems like quite a disparity given the couple hundredths of an inch difference in steel thickness. If we were to extrapolate making the assumptive jump that the steels and frames were built the same; the pressure capability should be somewhere about double (?!) the original Colt pressures.

And some of the Rugers should be quite a bit higher than that, given that they are chambered in .454.

I see that the Rugers (Blackhawks) in .45 are considered to be good for 25 000 psi. To me this does not sound very high for a Ruger, and like a reasonable pressure for a Uberti.

When I say "sounds", understand I'm not interested in testing to failure, either.

[Malamute]

Ok, I realize the steel is thicker, but its not that much thicker. The SAAMI pressures for the .45 are 14 000 psi, and the .44 mag are 36 000.

Seems like quite a disparity given the couple hundredths of an inch difference in steel thickness. If we were to extrapolate making the assumptive jump that the steels and frames were built the same; the pressure capability should be somewhere about double (?!) the original Colt pressures.

And some of the Rugers should be quite a bit higher than that, given that they are chambered in .454.

I see that the Rugers (Blackhawks) in .45 are considered to be good for 25 000 psi. To me this does not sound very high for a Ruger, and like a reasonable pressure for a Uberti.

When I say "sounds", understand I'm not interested in testing to failure, either.

The difference in steel thickness doesn't sound like much, but seems to be a significant difference. I recall seeing steel strength figures for different steels and dimensions as it related to cylinders, but don't recall where I saw them.

The frame isn't the problem with the Colts or Ubertis, the cylinder is. Guns came apart at the weakest point, which, from everything I've ever seen is always at the cylinder bolt cut in 6 shot guns.

I don't know where the Ruger figures came from you quoted. Its not a bad figure I suppose, but I think I've seen other numbers on Linebaughs site. They will take considerably more before breaking anything. Going to a 5 shot cylinder changes the picture dramatically, as the cylinder bolt lock notches are then between the chambers, and there more metal between the chambers. Some smiths also open up the frame window and make a larger diameter cylinder when making larger calibers or for heavier loads. I've seen a copycat smith that did not do this. He was doing work he didn't fully understand. His customers saved some money, but may have paid a higher price in problems with the gun later. I'm sure this example isn't unique.

Perhaps someone has better info, but I recall someone mentioning that Uberti barrels and cylinders were a bit soft. Plenty good enough for normal loads, but not in the hot rod category. I don't know how they compare to Colts in that regard.

I would guess that a 44 mag on a Colt sized cylinder would have a different heat treat on the cylinder. The heavy 44 spl loads weren't as high pressure as many assume, but definitely more than saami. I believe the figures I saw from Keiths book and a NRA manual showed about 22,000 psi ( which I believe should be CUP in actual terminology) for Keiths original heavy 44 spl loads in balloon head cases. When Ruger started making 44 mags, they quickly went to a larger diameter cylinder than their earliest guns had.

[Buck Elliott]

Since the mid-90s, at least, Uberti SA cylinders are nominally 1.675" diameter, compared to Colt's nominal 1.655" measurement.. That allows for a minimum 0.010" more steel between the chamber and the bottom of the bolt notch.. That may not sound like much, but it amounts to nearly 100% increase, in the case of the .45 Colt..

Beretta/Uberti's cylinders and barrels of recent make are at least as "hard" as Colt's, FWIW..

I have pushed 25,000 psi loads through my trio of Ubertis, over the past dozen years (and some that were even stouter) with no ill effects to the guns or the shooter.. i don't advise others to do the same, as it would void the revolvers' warranty...

[Centennial]

Lots of times gone over before, but it's worth repeating and should be common knowledge. Here's a link to a chart and the chart too.
www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9555.0


Thought I'd post this for those interested.
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero.htm


I added a couple
Wall thickness cyl-cyl
Wall thickness OutSide


Colt U.S. Firearms Old Vaquero New Vaquero Uberti Cattleman Uberti Buckhorn
Cylinder Diameter 1.652 1.674 1.732 1.675 1.671 1.719
Cylinder Length 1.607 1.625 1.703 1.610 1.614 1.698
Frame Window Height 1.672 1.690 1.763 1.700 1.689 1.749
Wall Thickness C/C 0.061 0.066
Wall Thickness O/S 0.071 0.102
Logged
NolanSackett

Free Grazer

Re: Revolver Dimensions
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 09:28:31 AM »
FYI - you've got the New Vaquero and teh Old Vaquero backwards - the New Model is the smaller of the two...
Colt SAA U.S. Firearms SAA Old Vaquero New Vaquero Old Model .357 Blackhawk
Cylinder Diameter 1.652 1.674 1.732 1.675 1.672
Cylinder Length 1.607 1.625 1.703 1.610 1.602
Frame Window Hgt 1.672 1.690 1.763 1.700 1.700

Quote

As can be seen in the chart, the dimensions of the New Vaquero are quite a bit smaller than the old Vaquero, and are very close in size to the US Firearms Single Action Army and the original .357 Blackhawk, both of which are slightly larger than the Colt. Some of the heavy bulleted Plus P class of .45 Colt ammunition are too long for the New Vaquero cylinder, which is a good thing. I was relieved, however, to find that my favorite standard .45 Colt handload using the Mt. Baldy 265 grain Keith style bullet fit the cylinder perfectly. The New Vaquero has cylinder walls that are thinner than those on the .45 Blackhawks and original Vaqueros, and while stronger than the Colt SAA, the New Vaquero should not be used with the heavy loads that are listed as "Ruger Only" in some hand loading manuals. As far as using other heavy commercial loads that exceed industry pressure limits for a .45 Colt, do not use them in the New Vaquero until you have checked with the maker of the ammunition regarding its suitability for this

[Old Savage]

Well from my own measurements so maybe approx. chamber to chamber thickness.

Ruger 45s
Blackhawk - .065"
New Vaquero - .037"

Colt - .036"
Iver Johnson - .045" Note here, made by Uberti about 1975

For comparison:
Freedom Arms 454 - .105"
Ruger SBH 44 Mag - .084"
New Vaquero 44 Spl. - .064"

Of course if Malamute is right and they always go at the bolt lock it is another issue.

[Griff]

Lots of times gone over before, but it's worth repeating and should be common knowledge. Here's a link to a chart and the chart too.
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index ... pic=9555.0


Thought I'd post this for those interested.
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-NewVaquero.htm


I added a couple
Wall thickness cyl-cyl
Wall thickness OutSide


--------------------------- Colt -- U.S. Firearms -- Old Vaquero -- New Vaquero -- Uberti Cattleman -- Uberti Buckhorn
Cylinder Diameter ....... 1.652 .... 1.674 ............... 1.732 ............. 1.675 .............. 1.671 .................. 1.719
Cylinder Length .......... 1.607 ..... 1.625 .............. 1.703 ............ 1.610 .............. 1.614 .................. 1.698
Frame Window Height . 1.672 ..... 1.690 ............... 1.763 ............ 1.700 .............. 1.689 .................. 1.749
Wall Thickness C/C ..... 0.061 ..... 0.066
Wall Thickness O/S ..... 0.071 ..... 0.102
Logged
NolanSackett

Re: Revolver Dimensions
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 09:28:31 AM »
FYI - you've got the New Vaquero and teh Old Vaquero backwards - the New Model is the smaller of the two...
Colt SAA - U.S. Firearms SAA - Old Vaquero - New Vaquero - Old Model .357 Blackhawk
Cylinder Diameter . 1.652 ........ 1.674 ............... 1.732 .............. 1.675 ................... 1.672
Cylinder Length ...., 1.607 ....... 1.625 ............... 1.703 .............. 1.610 ................... 1.602
Frame Window Hgt . 1.672 ...... 1.690 ............... 1.763 .............. 1.700 ................... 1.700

As can be seen in the chart, the dimensions of the New Vaquero are quite a bit smaller than the old Vaquero, and are very close in size to the US Firearms Single Action Army and the original .357 Blackhawk, both of which are slightly larger than the Colt. Some of the heavy bulleted Plus P class of .45 Colt ammunition are too long for the New Vaquero cylinder, which is a good thing. I was relieved, however, to find that my favorite standard .45 Colt handload using the Mt. Baldy 265 grain Keith style bullet fit the cylinder perfectly. The New Vaquero has cylinder walls that are thinner than those on the .45 Blackhawks and original Vaqueros, and while stronger than the Colt SAA, the New Vaquero should not be used with the heavy loads that are listed as "Ruger Only" in some hand loading manuals. As far as using other heavy commercial loads that exceed industry pressure limits for a .45 Colt, do not use them in the New Vaquero until you have checked with the maker of the ammunition regarding its suitability for this

It's irritating but, you have force the spacing on this forum.

I'll add: that, while those might be either actual measurements or quoted specifications... manufacturing tolerances should be taken into consideration when contemplating exceeding, or even running the upper limits of, SAAMI specs in your ammunition.

[Buck Elliott]

Uberti employs the same chamber spacing and cylinder O.D. in their .44 mags as in all other calibers.. My old "Buckhorn" and a very recent "Callahan" measured the same.. The .44s just have more metal around the holes than the .45s...

[Tactical Lever]

Well, thanks guys. Did anyone know offhand whether there was a smaller size, or larger size generation of pistols? This one I'm looking at, is the "Millenium", which I think is a year or two older than the one I have.

[Tactical Lever]

Since the mid-90s, at least, Uberti SA cylinders are nominally 1.675" diameter, compared to Colt's nominal 1.655" measurement.. That allows for a minimum 0.010" more steel between the chamber and the bottom of the bolt notch.. That may not sound like much, but it amounts to nearly 100% increase, in the case of the .45 Colt..

Beretta/Uberti's cylinders and barrels of recent make are at least as "hard" as Colt's, FWIW..

I have pushed 25,000 psi loads through my trio of Ubertis, over the past dozen years (and some that were even stouter) with no ill effects to the guns or the shooter.. i don't advise others to do the same, as it would void the revolvers' warranty...

So these are all .45 Colt? Thanks Buck!

[Buck Elliott]

Yes, mine are all .45s (with exception of the long-gone Buckhorn) and they're all still in fine shape..

Did you also read the part about Voiding the Warranty...??

[Old Savage]

The 45 Colt IJ Uberti cylinder measures 1.72".

[Mescalero]

I have a Sauer .45 Colt that I rescued after it was used in the fake gunfights at Rawhide in Scottsdale.
I recently bought a Sauer parts gun in .44 Mag.
All this talk has me wondering if I should switch all the parts and make it a .44.

[Hawkeye2]

The Millenium is just a standard Uberti with a "sandblasted" exterior and a flat black finish. All the polishing was eliminated and a "sandblasted" brass grip strap and trigger guard along with a 1 piece varnished grip were fitted. All this to allow them to be sold at a lower price than the standard Uberti. I have 2 Milleniums, .45 Colt and I don't believe they were ever produced in any other caliber.

[Tactical Lever]

Yes, mine are all .45s (with exception of the long-gone Buckhorn) and they're all still in fine shape..

Did you also read the part about Voiding the Warranty...??

Yep, I was looking at a used gun. Not sure how old exactly, but pretty sure the warranty is over. Don't recall how long it lasts.

[Tactical Lever]

The Millenium is just a standard Uberti with a "sandblasted" exterior and a flat black finish. All the polishing was eliminated and a "sandblasted" brass grip strap and trigger guard along with a 1 piece varnished grip were fitted. All this to allow them to be sold at a lower price than the standard Uberti. I have 2 Milleniums, .45 Colt and I don't believe they were ever produced in any other caliber.

I am familiar with the finish, it seems like a type of parkerizing, and I believe that they were offered in all the calibers. Mine is finished similar, except without the brass. And the ones with the black plastic grips were called the "gunfighters".

Just threw it out there to get a reference on the age of them. I think it is fairly recent?

[WoodrowC]

I'd like to see Ruger offer a 5 shot Blackhawk in .45, a value-priced, non custom powerhouse.

[Tactical Lever]

I'd like to see Ruger offer a 5 shot Blackhawk in .45, a value-priced, non custom powerhouse.

Me too! Always wanted one of those 5 shot Rossi DA revolvers in stainless and .44 Spl, and a 3" bbl. But that birds flown...

[Old Savage]

Just how much beyond the capability of a regular Blackhawk do you want to go?

[Mescalero]

OS,
Want to edit that?

Mecalero - is that good with you now??? OS

[Mescalero]

looks better now.

[piller]

If you are not wanting to ignore safety warnings without the knowledge that Buck and a few others on here have, it sounds as if the Uberti would be a good revolver. I have a Ruger Blackhawk, and I get the best accuracy at 900 to 1,000 fps. I have a .44 Mag and a .480 Ruger for the times when I want or need more power. How good is the accuracy from the Uberti?

[Tactical Lever]

Just how much beyond the capability of a regular Blackhawk do you want to go?

I don't think I want to get beyond Blackhawk levels! I was wanting to get into CAS (not with these loads); but I don't think I'm up for the handle of "Lefty McPatchyface"!

I want to get to +P or roughly 25 000 psi. Or maybe not even quite that high, but would like to push a 250 gr. at about 1200-1300 fps.

[Centennial]

^ I think that is asking to much for a Colt SAA frame or clones of them. 900 to 1000 FPS MV is about it. Then move on to Ruger Blackhawks or other comparable beefed up revolvers.

[Old Savage]

CAS and what you are asking are opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Buck Elliott]

For many many years, Uberti single-action revolvers had the somewhat smaller, "Colt" diameter cylinders.. My understanding is that when they started making parts for USPFA, they were asked/told to increase the cylinder diameter as much as possible for the USPFA guns, and quickly adopted the larger diameter as their standard..
.020" diameter may not sound like much, but when it comes to making a proper fitting holster, it can be a big difference..

[Tactical Lever]

CAS and what you are asking are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Yes, I know; it was an attempt at humour. I would like to find out what they are capable of in .45 Colt. I guess if pressed for a specific goal, it would be to achieve close to .44 magnum level loads, or at least stiff .44 Spl, with cast bullets at a lower pressure than the .429 bore guns.

Thanks for all the good info guys, I think that this is probably one of the best spots I have found for queries like this. Still not sure whether the Uberti will fit the bill in this case. I do enjoy mine in .357, and shoot it with some stiff loads, but .45 may not give me enough steel in this case.

[Neumann]

Colt SAA, Uberti SAA clones and the Ruger New Vaquero are not rated for +P .45 Colt, much less .44 Magnum. The maximum pressure is on the order of 13,500 (SAAMI), whereas .44 Magnum is close to 40,000. If you want to push the envelope, use a Ruger Blackhawk, or possibly an older Vaquero, which was on a Blackhawk frame.

.45 Colt can be loaded to very potent ballistics for a Blackhawk revolver, Marlin or Winchester carbine - 28,000 psi or possibly more. The external ballistics approach the low end of .45-70. I won't do with unless I could come up with a foolproof way to keep them out of my New Vaquero. I'm too old to learn to shoot with my left hand.

[Griff]

I always look at SAAMI maximums and hot-rodding rounds as similar speed limits... Under optimal conditions a good safe speed, sometimes more or less is called for.