Choose one rifle for me to carry on extended backpack trip

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:02 am

I think your rifle sounds like it would be just about perfect for your needs. I know with my 45-70, its not too tough to partially open the lever enough to avoid feeding the round in the mag but still feed and eject a round fed into the chamber by hand. Is your 1894 the same?

I might go with just the 180s to simplify things, if it was me. But if that works for you, it works.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:07 am

for a long time in the backcountry with out a pack animal get yourself a 22 LR or mag a brick of ammo goes a long way, for current auto models you have rem 597 or CZ in a lever a henry. I use a 22 mag rifle and pistol with a extra cyl havent found a domestic or wild animal that lived thru a solid to the brain. theres a outfit that makes a chamber bushing to shoot 22 LR in a mag and carry a 22 pistol too. Ive found over the years in the backcountry packing, fishing and hunting that you dont always have a rifle at hand like latrine time,hauling water, gathering wood or enjoying a nap a bearcat/single six in a chest holster works good. Enjoy your trip. danny

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:04 am

Extended trip. Poor eyesight. Weight restrictions. Targets ranging from critters to dangerous prey.
The divergent requirements make this a pretty tough call.

The moment we start talking bears, pigs and mountain lions, a .22LR is out.
Heck, a pistol cal .357 doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy there, either.
Weight restricts most heavy rifle cartridges as well as the platforms that deploy them.
Start getting too big and you turn your smaller critters to paste, including larger pistol calibers that will take bears.
Likewise, said rifles need to have a setup that work with your eyes. As others have said, probably a red dot or the like.

I'm going to agree with K1500 here-- Something in .223/5.56 for the following reasons:

The power to weight ratio of the cartridge is formidable.
As long as judicious marksmanship is applied, it will handle nearly anything you encounter.
For animals where you cannot apply said marksmanship and handling, quantity is a quality all its own.
Most platforms are optics friendly.

And here's where I start to go off the reservation myself-- Does it have to be a rifle?

I ask because you can substantially drop your weight and maintain a reasonable amount of firepower if you can go with an AR pistol setup. A standard setup will cost you about 5lbs unloaded. If you can step outside the box, a Keltec PLR16 will drop that to 3.4lbs. If you can edge just a bit further, an Extar 556 will bring you down to 48oz. Even in the abbreviated format, these firearms are easily good out to 100yds with a good optic or dot. Just three 30 rnd mags will go a long way as well. Get a cheap angled foregrip to stabilize it (or hell, bipod, even), a cheap red dot and good to go.

And trust me, I would be first in line to suggest a venerable 30-30 bush rifle like my own if not for your varied prerequisites. I've got a setup that mount over thirty rounds in the pipe, on the stock and sling... But it's not light. And I would want a rifle cartridge for the bear requirement. Failing that I would want lots of lead down range for the snap shot bear at close range scenario where a .22LR/mag would get laughed at. The AR/556 is a compromise on that. Not a perfect compromise, but you already know you're looking at tradeoffs here. Just up to you what becomes the most important.

Best of luck and have fun. You had better post your experience when you're done!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:01 am

This won't be a popular suggestion , i know, but years ago before i even considering owning a levergun of my own --- i made many hikes in that area --- down the horsethief trail and through the potato hills, - carrying my early generation civilian CAR-15 with heavy for caliber bullets, and a 4" Colt Lawman 357 as a sidearm . My dad is from the area and i guess i wanted to re-connect with my roots , and scout out future whitetail land while i was at it

carried 2 20 round mags for the carbine and a box of ammo for the 357 with 2 speedloaders handy. Primary purpose being exercise and brushing up on my land nav skills, not hunting or shooting , but i went a little "heavy" due to the proliferation of marijuana farmers in that area in those days. I shot the 357 perhaps 4-5 times and never un-strapped the carbine from the pack frame --- sometimes you just dont want to spoil the peace and quiet by plinking out in the woods (sometimes you do though

)

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:37 pm

Panzercat wrote:Extended trip. Poor eyesight. Weight restrictions. Targets ranging from critters to dangerous prey.
The divergent requirements make this a pretty tough call.

The moment we start talking bears, pigs and mountain lions, a .22LR is out.
Heck, a pistol cal .357 doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy there, either.
Weight restricts most heavy rifle cartridges as well as the platforms that deploy them.
Start getting too big and you turn your smaller critters to paste, including larger pistol calibers that will take bears.
Likewise, said rifles need to have a setup that work with your eyes. As others have said, probably a red dot or the like.

I'm going to agree with K1500 here-- Something in .223/5.56 for the following reasons:

The power to weight ratio of the cartridge is formidable.
As long as judicious marksmanship is applied, it will handle nearly anything you encounter.
For animals where you cannot apply said marksmanship and handling, quantity is a quality all its own.
Most platforms are optics friendly.

And here's where I start to go off the reservation myself-- Does it have to be a rifle?

I ask because you can substantially drop your weight and maintain a reasonable amount of firepower if you can go with an AR pistol setup. A standard setup will cost you about 5lbs unloaded. If you can step outside the box, a Keltec PLR16 will drop that to 3.4lbs. If you can edge just a bit further, an Extar 556 will bring you down to 48oz. Even in the abbreviated format, these firearms are easily good out to 100yds with a good optic or dot. Just three 30 rnd mags will go a long way as well. Get a cheap angled foregrip to stabilize it (or hell, bipod, even), a cheap red dot and good to go.

And trust me, I would be first in line to suggest a venerable 30-30 bush rifle like my own if not for your varied prerequisites. I've got a setup that mount over thirty rounds in the pipe, on the stock and sling... But it's not light. And I would want a rifle cartridge for the bear requirement. Failing that I would want lots of lead down range for the snap shot bear at close range scenario where a .22LR/mag would get laughed at. The AR/556 is a compromise on that. Not a perfect compromise, but you already know you're looking at tradeoffs here. Just up to you what becomes the most important.

Best of luck and have fun. You had better post your experience when you're done!

I'd take a 180 gr. .357 bullet going 1700 fps, or a 200 going 1600 any day over a .223. Much easier snap shooting a rifle with a quick hammer or lever rather than racking a round into semi auto; rifle or pistol.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:14 pm

A lot of info put out. My 2 cents the .357 will preform your needs with no additional cost a red dot would be faster for aiming with a micro aimpoint of the cheaper Vortex Sparc http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-SPARC-Red- ... B0038VG5UC that comes with a 3x magnifier. (I have one on a AK pistol pretty tough and small) your choice. I would carry a .22 pistol also a Walter P-22, S&W, or some small light weight semi auto to kill small game with along with one of your .357 revolvers. (For two legged and other vermin) For what its worth here is a photo of my 1894 .44 Mag with a red dot on it I carry when hiking in a scabbard if back packing and the .22 Walther.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:48 pm

I have enjoyed reading about your plans and I think your Marlin .357 carbine will do all you need. I got my map books out today and found the border area you are planning to live in for awhile. I showed it to my wife and she said it looked like a nice drive from here. We might make that trip this fall. Looks to be different from our north central Arkansaw hills and mountains. Will be praying for you and your trip.

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:38 pm

I think your 357 carbine will work well but I would throw in a revolver (3" barrel with external hammer comes to mind). Same cailber but doesnt way much and could be useful for times when the rifle has been set down or when going to get water and doing camp chores .

RustyJr

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:54 pm

I might throw a different spin in this for a minute. Things I would not take on a 90 day walk a bout into the bush:
#1 any kind of electronic sight, because I don't trust batteries or electronics very far.
#2 a single weapon, as two is one and one is none without some replacement parts, if you have bad luck.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:12 pm

Tactical Lever wrote:I'd take a 180 gr. .357 bullet going 1700 fps, or a 200 going 1600 any day over a .223. Much easier snap shooting a rifle with a quick hammer or lever rather than racking a round into semi auto; rifle or pistol.

I'm not saying a .357 won't do the job as long as you can pre-plan the shot. Any caliber will. Shot placement is king.
I will question how many rounds you're going to be able to lever off before momma bear noms on you for unknowingly stumbling across her an her cubs in the brush. Unless you're cowboy action bob (and some people here are), probably not enough to kill it before it uses you as a chew toy.

Nor am I saying 556 is the ideal round. But I can spam a snot load of it in a surprise situation. The AR pistols I linked are lighter and will go on target faster, on average, than a full up lever. Again, levergun ninjas not withstanding. Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on the bear and weight aspects, but if I'm already forced to compromise caliber to weight in bear country, my second best is the ability to put those compromised rounds on target quickly. Three rounds of 357 or as fast as I can pull the trigger on an AR.

And what is this "rack a round" business? You're either traveling with a round in the chamber or you're not. Operation for levers and semis aren't rocket science, let alone a time consuming process for either. The only difference is you get to do it over and over for the lever.

Now if he can blaze out an entire tube's worth of 357 like a semi auto, you will find my opinion drastically changed.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Panzercat wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:I'd take a 180 gr. .357 bullet going 1700 fps, or a 200 going 1600 any day over a .223. Much easier snap shooting a rifle with a quick hammer or lever rather than racking a round into semi auto; rifle or pistol.
I'm not saying a .357 won't do the job as long as you can pre-plan the shot. Any caliber will. Shot placement is king.
I will question how many rounds you're going to be able to lever off before momma bear noms on you for unknowingly stumbling across her an her cubs in the brush. Unless you're cowboy action bob (and some people here are), probably not enough to kill it before it uses you as a chew toy.
.

The bears in this neck of the woods only rarely get bigger than a husky teenager --- again, - not really something to be trifled with, -- but carrying a .500 SW may be over-thinking things a tad (but i use a 45/70 to hunt deer, - so whatever works - also)

Me? I would love to see an Oklahoma bear in its natural habitat while i glassed it from afar

I wouldnt hurt it - plenty more and bigger in the NE and NW if i wanted a bear skin rug

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:36 am

Panzercat wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:I'd take a 180 gr. .357 bullet going 1700 fps, or a 200 going 1600 any day over a .223. Much easier snap shooting a rifle with a quick hammer or lever rather than racking a round into semi auto; rifle or pistol.
I'm not saying a .357 won't do the job as long as you can pre-plan the shot. Any caliber will. Shot placement is king.
I will question how many rounds you're going to be able to lever off before momma bear noms on you for unknowingly stumbling across her an her cubs in the brush. Unless you're cowboy action bob (and some people here are), probably not enough to kill it before it uses you as a chew toy.

Nor am I saying 556 is the ideal round. But I can spam a snot load of it in a surprise situation. The AR pistols I linked are lighter and will go on target faster, on average, than a full up lever. Again, levergun ninjas not withstanding. Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on the bear and weight aspects, but if I'm already forced to compromise caliber to weight in bear country, my second best is the ability to put those compromised rounds on target quickly. Three rounds of 357 or as fast as I can pull the trigger on an AR.

And what is this "rack a round" business? You're either traveling with a round in the chamber or you're not. Operation for levers and semis aren't rocket science, let alone a time consuming process for either. The only difference is you get to do it over and over for the lever.

Now if he can blaze out an entire tube's worth of 357 like a semi auto, you will find my opinion drastically changed.

If you never get a round off, to begin with...

Why would you travel with a round in the chamber of an AR to begin with? If you're bush rambling, not in the middle of a stalk or expecting trouble, I don't see why anyone would. Just seems like an extra liability to trust the safety.

So, let's say I'm carrying the AR pistol that you are promoting. I'm carrying it on some goofy sling, as it bounces all over the place because there is no nice flat balanced spot to carry it like a lever action in one hand (as God intended). I hear a something rushing up from behind and whirl quickly as the AR pistol orbits my body like a hula hoop with sharp metal edges. Identifying a bear at a few yards (using my ninja reflexes, play along), I manage to pull back the slide and release it, give the forward assist a tap for good measure and whip the thing to eye level. Whoa, way to high! Too light and no third point of contact! Now too low as I overcompensate, as I frantically jack my neck around like a sped up rooster dancing to house music, trying to line up the red dot... Now firing under high stress with no but stock to steady my hands, I quickly pull a few to the right.

Just to get the gun ready to fire would take me roughly 6 times as long to get a round chambered. Probably a couple times as long, if one was already in the chamber.

I like to keep a round in the chamber of a lever; all that's needed is to thumb the hammer back as it comes to my shoulder and the sights, or scope line up as it hits my cheek. Even if one prefers to keep the chamber empty, its much faster to get one in the chamber of a lever (or pump) than a semi auto. Advantage lever.

I am still in favour of the lever in .357 as it has roughly double the Taylor KO rating of a .223 out of a pistol. Probably closer to 3 times out of a rifle. Maybe its a little overstated, as to the ballistic superiority, but if a bear is charging in a predatory manner, you probably won't get time to fire anyway. If there are cubs, you will probably have some time as she will probably warn you off.

I would not get overly stressed about the firepower needed to take a (likely small female) black bear.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:11 am

I think we are overly concerned about bear attacks and mountain lions. I have lived and hunted in Arkansas all of my life, went bear hunting several times, never ever even saw a bear in the woods. I know some people do stumble onto bears, but heck the old timer locals shoot them with a .22 according to a game warden I was talking to one time, of course I doubt they were charging.

My point is if you are going to live off of the land and not haul your food in with you, then a .22 or a shotgun will be far more useful. I would choose a good .22 pistol that I could pot small game with, and a shotgun for those times when shooting opportunities were a little more fleeting, with a few slugs or buckshot for bear repellent thrown in.

And a couple of small Conibear traps thrown in and set out whenever I was camping or stopped for a few days or hours would probably produce a meal often enough to cut down on hunting time.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:13 am

Panzercat wrote: I will question how many rounds you're going to be able to lever off before momma bear noms on you for unknowingly stumbling across her an her cubs in the brush. Unless you're cowboy action bob (and some people here are), probably not enough to kill it before it uses you as a chew toy.

Three in a second-and-a-half or a little under with a .30-40 Krag lever gun on an attacking bear. I could not have fired a semi-auto faster with aimed shots on a fast-moving target. I'm not a CAS guy - I have way more trigger time on an AR. (though I would like to be if I had the money). I do use an AR for bear protection, but it is a Beowulf.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:25 am

Tactical Lever wrote:. . . if a bear is charging in a predatory manner, you probably won't get time to fire anyway. If there are cubs, you will probably have some time as she will probably warn you off.

Never can tell what a bear will do, but with black bears, predatory attacks tend sot start with the bear following the person or circling around. Most people who describe such an attack report seeing the bear prior to the attack, sometime only for a minute or so, sometimes for hours.

Defensive attacks can start with warnings, or no warning at all. The lady that was just mauled up here saw the cubs, turned, and saw the mother already starting her charge.

bluesman423 · Post by **bluesman423** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:00 pm

My mind is made up on a few things ...........

One firearms is all I will carry due to weight restrictions. One of the reasons is that I will rappel down the face of the cliff shown and climb back out. This is rough country and I will be walking, climbing in and out. My pack is already 68 lbs and my goal is 65 lbs max. A lot of stuff must be carried for 90 days out. Stuff most people would not even realized is needed.

5.56 ammo is out. I do not consider one shot (sometimes one shot is all that one has, regardless of how fast you can pull the trigger) with it effective against humans or hogs, I have experience in both matters. I certainly will not consider it against a bear ............... attached is a photo of a bear taken before I began my descent the last time I was there. It did not act in a threatening manner in any way.

A 22 is out as my only firearms because I will be hunting deer and pigs while I am there.

I expect to use snares and fishing to produce more food than hunting.

A handgun is out as my only firearm due to my inability to see the sights well enough for a quick shot. a rifle scoped in the traditional manner is my only choice.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:14 pm

Looks imposing, what is the rappel distance?

bluesman423 · Post by **bluesman423** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:24 pm

Mescalero wrote:Looks imposing, what is the rappel distance?

I believe it is a little over 100 feet ................ it is the only way to reach my spot without hiking/ climbing over ten miles which is probably visited by humans less than once per year. I leave a few items there and they are undisturbed every time I come back.

I discovered it by accident one time when I looked through a cleft in the rock ............ photo below

It is near a creek that runs year round and a small lake ............

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:49 pm

Stunning.

bluesman423 · Post by **bluesman423** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:45 pm

I would say thank you but I did not make it, God did. I do enjoy it every chance I get though.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:05 am

I have a Remington 600 in .308 Winchester with a 2x7x33 Leupold that I would carry. Under 7 pounds loaded, carries easy and ammo available just about anywhere. I'd probably carry a ruger .22 autoladers too, but that is me.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:47 am

Lastmohecken wrote:I think we are overly concerned about bear attacks and mountain lions. I have lived and hunted in Arkansas all of my life, went bear hunting several times, never ever even saw a bear in the woods. I know some people do stumble onto bears, but heck the old timer locals shoot them with a .22 according to a game warden I was talking to one time, of course I doubt they were charging.

My point is if you are going to live off of the land and not haul your food in with you, then a .22 or a shotgun will be far more useful. I would choose a good .22 pistol that I could pot small game with, and a shotgun for those times when shooting opportunities were a little more fleeting, with a few slugs or buckshot for bear repellent thrown in.

And a couple of small Conibear traps thrown in and set out whenever I was camping or stopped for a few days or hours would probably produce a meal often enough to cut down on hunting time.

Probably, but a little bit bigger gun will take the place of a small gun, but not vice versa. I would rather have it, on the off chance. Luck favours the prepared.

I suspect Mr. Bluesman might want porkchops at some point on his trip as well.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:54 am

7.62 Precision wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:. . . if a bear is charging in a predatory manner, you probably won't get time to fire anyway. If there are cubs, you will probably have some time as she will probably warn you off.
Never can tell what a bear will do, but with black bears, predatory attacks tend sot start with the bear following the person or circling around. Most people who describe such an attack report seeing the bear prior to the attack, sometime only for a minute or so, sometimes for hours.

Defensive attacks can start with warnings, or no warning at all. The lady that was just mauled up here saw the cubs, turned, and saw the mother already starting her charge.

I am certainly no bear expert, but I sure do agree with the first 8 words. I have never been the victim of a predatory attack, but I imagine like most predators, a bear will tend to sneak up. Maybe not all the time, I wonder how many times the person did not see it coming?

A number of bear attacks seem to be linked to prior altercations, and perhaps the bear holding a grudge. When skinned out, some had old injuries from small calibers and shotgun shot.

It all depends on the animal.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:01 am

bluesman423 wrote:My mind is made up on a few things ...........

One firearms is all I will carry due to weight restrictions. One of the reasons is that I will rappel down the face of the cliff shown and climb back out. This is rough country and I will be walking, climbing in and out. My pack is already 68 lbs and my goal is 65 lbs max. A lot of stuff must be carried for 90 days out. Stuff most people would not even realized is needed.

5.56 ammo is out. I do not consider one shot (sometimes one shot is all that one has, regardless of how fast you can pull the trigger) with it effective against humans or hogs, I have experience in both matters. I certainly will not consider it against a bear ............... attached is a photo of a bear taken before I began my descent the last time I was there. It did not act in a threatening manner in any way.

A 22 is out as my only firearms because I will be hunting deer and pigs while I am there.

I expect to use snares and fishing to produce more food than hunting.

A handgun is out as my only firearm due to my inability to see the sights well enough for a quick shot. a rifle scoped in the traditional manner is my only choice.

Just wondering if you have any problem with a pistol with a red dot sight? Just out of curiosity; if it was me, I would probably bring one in .357 with or without a sight for point shooting, or a semi auto in .22 and a hundred rounds just for redundancy and to have something on hand while working around a camp, or with your hands full.

Looks like a great trip; I'm looking forward to updates.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:19 am

Tactical Lever wrote:...give the forward assist a tap for good measure and whip the thing to eye level. Whoa, way to high! Too light and no third point of contact! Now too low as I overcompensate, as I frantically jack my neck around like a sped up rooster dancing to house music, trying to line up the red dot... Now firing under high stress with no but stock to steady my hands, I quickly pull a few to the right.

I don't know why you're bent on making the basic operation of an AR akin to witchcraft and rocket science. It's not. At all.

I am still in favour of the lever in .357 as it has roughly double the Taylor KO rating of a .223 out of a pistol. Probably closer to 3 times out of a rifle. Maybe its a little overstated, as to the ballistic superiority, but...

Now that he's noted his willingness to take on the extra weight for a better one shot kill ability, I agree with you. I was under the impression that weight was a huge concern so I gave him the best option I could for under three pounds. Remember, I clearly stated it wasn't my first choice either, and his marlin is going to cost him 6lbs unloaded. Realistically, he's not going to fall under that without some unorthodox choices.

I do have one slightly more plausible suggestion for the op-- A Rossi Ranch hand in 38/357. Weighs in at 4lbs even, saving you 2lb pounds off 18in marlin 1894c, assuming that's what you have. It's also a more compact format than the average lever, and might aid you getting up and down, over and yon. The picture below is a little grandiose, but it gives you a decent idea of what's possible. Franky, the entertainment value alone would justify its purchase

That pretty much taps me for suggestions. If 6lbs of rifle is fine, you have a lot of options anyway.
Hell, even my Mossberg 464 30-30 comes in at 6lbs even. Love that thing.

Tactical Lever · Post by **Tactical Lever** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:03 am

Panzercat wrote:
Tactical Lever wrote:...give the forward assist a tap for good measure and whip the thing to eye level. Whoa, way to high! Too light and no third point of contact! Now too low as I overcompensate, as I frantically jack my neck around like a sped up rooster dancing to house music, trying to line up the red dot... Now firing under high stress with no but stock to steady my hands, I quickly pull a few to the right.
I don't know why you're bent on making the basic operation of an AR akin to witchcraft and rocket science. It's not. At all.

I am still in favour of the lever in .357 as it has roughly double the Taylor KO rating of a .223 out of a pistol. Probably closer to 3 times out of a rifle. Maybe its a little overstated, as to the ballistic superiority, but...
Now that he's noted his willingness to take on the extra weight for a better one shot kill ability, I agree with you. I was under the impression that weight was a huge concern so I gave him the best option I could for under three pounds. Remember, I clearly stated it wasn't my first choice either, and his marlin is going to cost him 6lbs unloaded. Realistically, he's not going to fall under that without some unorthodox choices.

I do have one slightly more plausible suggestion for the op-- A Rossi Ranch hand in 38/357. Weighs in at 4lbs even, saving you 2lb pounds off 18in marlin 1894c, assuming that's what you have. It's also a more compact format than the average lever, and might aid you getting up and down, over and yon. The picture below is a little grandiose, but it gives you a decent idea of what's possible. Franky, the entertainment value alone would justify its purchase

That pretty much taps me for suggestions. If 6lbs of rifle is fine, you have a lot of options anyway.
Hell, even my Mossberg 464 30-30 comes in at 6lbs even. Love that thing.

Well, I hope I didn't make it sound too complicated.... heck I like the platform.

I was just shedding some light on why the lever would be quicker to get into action for the quick 1st and second shot. If I was entering urban warfare, then I would lean towards the AR.

The Rossi is a cool rig. I bought one "for my wife"

in .44 mag. On hindsight, I'm a little sorry that I didn't go with my first instinct and go .45 Colt.

As much fun and as cool as the short stock are, I'm no Gunsmoke star (and neither is my wife), so I took off the small stock and replaced it with a full size one. If you have ever shot one in stock form, they are more challenging to shoot well than a pistol, just awkward (and not very quick to get on target). I may trim it down an inch and put on a rubber butt pad. It is starting to get more usable, but I have to do something about the sights. As well, the large loop is a little ridiculous in function; and more so with the regular size stock. I don't want to go to a regular lever, as a couple winters ago I watched the ambient temp drop to -52 Celsius, what we in the area refer to as "brisk", or "chilly". So the plan is to cut out a piece of the lever, and heat it and bend it to a manageable glove size.

336A · Post by **336A** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:56 am

Given the requirements of the OP I don't forsee any rifle filling those all of those needs. For the intended purpose here I think the best choice would be a 20GA single shot shotgun such as the NEF pardner. With the given requirements there is nothing that this platform can't handle and it is nice and light. To make the platform even more versatile I would look into getting one of these http://www.gunadapters.com/20-gauge-to- ... ie-series/ no it won't be as accurate a .22LR specific firearm but I think that it should work in a pinch, here is one in use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_f7C4og ... F&index=15 I plan on ordering one to try out myself.

The reason I would choose a 20GA is that the ammo is going to be lighter than the 12GA so you could carry more of it or more of a variety, and recoil won't be as severe as a 12GA. Also remember that the most prolific firearm of the Longhunters from the 18th century was the 20GA fusil de' chasse. The single shot 20GA in essence is nothing more than a modern day version of what the lonhunters used.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:02 pm

bluesman423 wrote:My pack is already 68 lbs and my goal is 65 lbs max. A lot of stuff must be carried for 90 days out. Stuff most people would not even realized is needed.

Once you get your pack settled on, it would be a very interesting post/thread in itself to show what you're taking. Some of us will never get a chance to do what you're doing, but a few of us may get a chance someday, and knowing what to take/not take would help us out quite a bit to making such a trip enjoyable.

As far as the firearm part of your question, it is looking to me like a Marbles Bullseye sighted 16" Rossi in 357 Mag would be pretty good, though 'stepping up' to the 44 Mag, 45 Colt, or even 454 Casull, would be possible, depending on how much ammunition you want to carry. You could have a compact optic on a B-Square QD mount if you wanted; the Burris Fastfire-II is probably the lightest thing going, if you don't mind a non-magnifying red-dot (holograph) setup.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:21 pm

My personal choice would be a savage mdl 24 in 22LR over 20 gauge. Second choice would be my Rossi 357. 20 guage slug would work on any hog or bear. 22LR on small food. As Blaine pointed out though, you will most likely eat better with some fish hooks and line.

Chris

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:47 pm

Tactical Lever wrote: I am certainly no bear expert, but I sure do agree with the first 8 words. I have never been the victim of a predatory attack, but I imagine like most predators, a bear will tend to sneak up. Maybe not all the time, I wonder how many times the person did not see it coming?

I don't know. I don't have any of that kind of data. Almost all predatory black bear attacks I have heard of started with the bear stalking the person or people involved prior to attacking, and usually seen before the attack.

However, these stories are told by those who survived an attack . . .

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:48 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Once you get your pack settled on, it would be a very interesting post/thread in itself to show what you're taking.

I would be interested to see this as well.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:29 pm

Your choice sounds good to me ... you know your needs ... an additional, tiny single shot .22 rifle would be my only suggestion. Don't worry about your .357 and bigger critters. Except in a sow/cub situation, bears will avoid you if you make a little noise. I have no knowledge when it comes to a large cat. In regards to the .357 ... I sent a 185 grain WFN Beartooth bullet, beginning at the front of the skull, the length minus one foot of a 350 pound hog. 158's have gone in and out on average sized Pennsylvania deer. You'll be fine.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:28 pm

Just musing over the situation (and I think we all just love these 'problems' to think on)...

How about a Contender pistol, with a couple barrels. Weight would be less than most rifles, even with two (or three) barrels, and you could have holstered-quick-draw ability, yet precision for hunting.

Say you had a barrel in 45 Colt/410 shotshell, and one in 22 LR or 22 WMR or 22 Hornet. You'd cover a LOT of bases with very little weight. If the small caliber hunting barrel were scoped, you could have accuracy rivaling most rifles, yet the 45/410 barrel would give you something for 'shot' hunting, as well as you could keep a 45 Colt +P load in that barrel 'for bear' literally.

I think you could pack a Contender with open-sighted/ghost-ring 45 Colt/410 shotshell barrel, and maybe six 45 Colt loads, a dozen shotshells, and a 22 LR or WMR or Hornet barrel with compact scope, and 100 rounds or so, for a total of less weight than most any rifle/carbine.

I know you don't like handgun sights, but you could easily put a huge 'ghost-ring' sight on the Colt/410 barrel that would enable a quick self-defense shot should it be needed, and would be good for any shotshell-type hunting you might need to do. The 45 Colt loads in '45/410' chambers are not terribly accurate, but would be decent bear-whompum, although your time-to-a-second-shot would be quite long vs. a revolver. Still, the rig would be holsterable, vs. moat rifle/carbine setups being far more cumbersome.

Just something (else) to think about....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:34 pm

I guess I liked what I said so much I quoted it and re-posted it (deleted)...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:12 pm

A single shot pistol, rifle or shotgun becomes a very ineffective CLUB after the first shot is fired. In a situation that has become up-close and personal.. That is why God invented repeaters..!

Shotgun ammunition is too heavy and bulky to be seriously considered..

I'd rather be overgunned than undergunned.. .22 rimfires can be a lot of fun, and can even be deadly under the right circumstances.. The .357 in a short levergun covers all the bases quite well.. Light-loaded .38s will work great on smaller critters.

Don't over-think the proposition, and don't follow ill-concieved advice, from those who will never do what you plan to do, no matter how well-meaning it may be...

Best of Luck on your trip, and may Good Fortune shine upon you..!!

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:38 pm

Buck Elliott wrote: Don't over-think the proposition, and don't follow ill-concieved advice, from those who will never do what you plan to do, no matter how well-meaning it may be...

That's why I did not comment on the actual question of the firearm choice - Bluesman knows better than I do what is required for his trip . . . different area and different animals than I am used to.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:A single shot pistol, rifle or shotgun becomes a very ineffective CLUB after the first shot is fired. In a situation that has become up-close and personal.. That is why God invented repeaters..!

Shotgun ammunition is too heavy and bulky to be seriously considered..

I'd rather be overgunned than undergunned.. .22 rimfires can be a lot of fun, and can even be deadly under the right circumstances.. The .357 in a short levergun covers all the bases quite well.. Light-loaded .38s will work great on smaller critters.

Don't over-think the proposition, and don't follow ill-concieved advice, from those who will never do what you plan to do, no matter how well-meaning it may be...

Best of Luck on your trip, and may Good Fortune shine upon you..!!

Yep. One of my favorite loads is a dead soft cast/swaged bullet over just enough powder to get it out at subsonic speeds. Anything a .22 can do in 25yds, a "catsneeze" .38/.357 can do better, more quietly.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:27 am

Buck Elliott wrote:A single shot pistol, rifle or shotgun becomes a very ineffective CLUB after the first shot is fired. In a situation that has become up-close and personal.. That is why God invented repeaters..!

This.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:55 am

Wow - but that's rugged country!

I have absolutely NO experience doing what you're doing,
but the choice of a carbine in 357 MAG sounds like the best
compromise. Fairly light, one type of ammo to load out,
powerful enough, (although pushing it's limits with black
bear), and very quick to get into action and/or battery, as
long as your magazine is loaded.

A 68 lb. pack?! That's A LOT of weight. Better you than me,
brother!

I'm breathing hard just thinking about carrying it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Fletcher

The late Colin Fletcher spent a summer walking the Grand Canyon.
I cannot recall the weight of his pack, but he DID have a couple of
airdrops enroute. And forded the Colorado a coupla times. I don't
believe he carried a firearm, and seems to have survived okay. He
didn't plan to hunt, either. In any event, the chronicle of his adventure,
"The Man Who Walked Through Time," is still fascinating reading for
any outdoorsman.

-Stretch

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:24 am

Thanks for that stretch, I wrote it down for future reading.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:42 pm

I can't argue against your Marlin in 357Magnum. The 180gr cast at 1800fps still beats some of the original 190gr 30-30 loads (which seem to work on black bears). I'm more interested in which knives our friend is taking along. A good knife is used more often and makes life much more comforting out in the wilderness. I'm another who would appreciate if you could share what's in your kit.

Here is to a great trip, I'll raise a glass of something to you.

PS: What kind of (trout?) fishing do you have there? Wild trout taste much better than hatchery raised.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:57 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:Once you get your pack settled on, it would be a very interesting post/thread in itself to show what you're taking.
I would be interested to see this as well.

And so would I. Zero experience in this sort of thing.

Cat

Bob Hatfield · Post by **Bob Hatfield** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:43 pm

Since you are on a hike. I would have a rifle/carbine/shotgun on my pack or slung over my back with my hands free to grab my pistol to mitigate the hazard until I can get the rifle off. If someone is hiking why would a person want a rifle in the hands all the time? Except when dedicating it to filling the pot before/after setting up camp.

22 Magnum rifle with solids for pig, small game sighted in with open sights and scope would be good for me but fitting it to the pack sort of like an M-14 on the side of a Alice pack might work if it is not too brushy. Weight would be a factor to me hiking for sure. Feeding myself would be my main priority. I figure a fellow would starve before he got attacked. If fear of being attacked by a bear or big hog was my primary fear I would have an AR carbine loaded with TSX's. And holding it at the ready. Can you legally use a rimfire magnum 22 on the hogs?

Bob

336A · Post by **336A** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:08 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:A single shot pistol, rifle or shotgun becomes a very ineffective CLUB after the first shot is fired. In a situation that has become up-close and personal.. That is why God invented repeaters..!

Shotgun ammunition is too heavy and bulky to be seriously considered..

I'd rather be overgunned than undergunned.. .22 rimfires can be a lot of fun, and can even be deadly under the right circumstances.. The .357 in a short levergun covers all the bases quite well.. Light-loaded .38s will work great on smaller critters.

Don't over-think the proposition, and don't follow ill-concieved advice, from those who will never do what you plan to do, no matter how well-meaning it may be...

Best of Luck on your trip, and may Good Fortune shine upon you..!!

Meh... I doubt very much when the buffalo were being hunted to near extinction with single shot Sharp's they didn't look at one another and say "don't worry it's only a single shot". The OP wants to save weight yet have a firearm that will meet all of the criteria he layed out which is mainly for harvesting food sources not getting into a fire fight. The best platform in weight savings and ease of maintenance will be a single shot. It does not sound as though the OP reloads either so mouse fanny burp anything loads seem to be out of the picture. A factory loaded .38 SPL from a .357 carbine won't leave much left of any small game if one intends to eat it. No platform will ever come close to equalling the versatility of the shotgun, during the Great Depression it was the shotgun that kept many farms protected and families fed. Most of the time it was a single shot at that since it would have been the most affordable to own. From the pictures provided the area that the OP will be in looks to be very dense with vegitation where the typical shot will be 50 yards or less. This is another area that the shotgun easily outperforms a rifle in. A good example of this is trying to shoot a squirrel from a tree top that is still covered in leaves, a typical situation for early season squirrel, or running rabbit that was kicked up.

Shotgun ammo is heavier and takes up more room to be sure, but everything is a compromise so one needs to pick the one with the most options for their needs. To limit the weight for this scenerio I would take along a box of 20GA birdshot (lighter than 12GA), 5 rounds of buckshot for PD if that is a concern, and a 15 round box of slugs. Fifteen slugs should be more than enough for either a pig or a deer and I'd reserve the birdshot for those times it's needed most. The other piece of equipment would be that .22LR adapter I posted a link to earlier with about 200 rounds of ammo. This would be used for the majority of the small game gathering. This setup covers what the OP outlined better than any rifle would, and the rest of the protien sounds as though it will be covered by fishing.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:34 pm

Poohgyrr wrote: PS: What kind of (trout?) fishing do you have there? Wild trout taste much better than hatchery raised.

Just about none ---- but sunfish (perch, bluegill , etc. ) are abundant everywhere in the area, as well as delicious crappie if a deep enough pond is encountered , --- several bass species, plus a couple of different catfish species

--- makes me salivate just thinking about some campfire roasted panfish

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:50 pm

I swear some people have never hiked farther than the mailbox. He's doing his best to keep his load light, which means one gun, in a sufficient caliber to serve several purposes, .357. Carrying a handgun very many miles no matter what kind of holster is a pain, let alone with a full size pack. A rifle or carbine should be carried in ones hand to do much good not slung on a pack, another reason for a little levergun. bluesman seems like a educated man, one to ride the river with. He's been through this area before. Just my thoughts.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:03 pm

There is iron in the words of walks with gun.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:43 pm

The man has camped and lived in this area before so I reckon he has a pretty fair notion of what's a head. Probably carrying a couple of knives and a good stone, though he could pick up a good stone from the ground most anyplace there.

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:58 pm

Never been in the area you are headed to, but I have kicked around the mountains of Wyoming for the better part of 50 years and for me this is what works. If I'm carrying a centerfire rifle I carry a .22 handgun. If I have a .22 rifle I carry a large caliber handgun. I have used a Marlin .44mag lever, a Browning B-92 .357 lever and a Win. Trapper 30/30. Handguns are usually Ruger Blackhawks, SBH's or Single-six type single actions. Depending on the length of time and the weather I expect often determines the weight of my pack. I usually try to stay under 60 lbs., and that often determines the guns and ammo I carry. Most of the time my fishing gear is more important for food gathering than my guns, and I always leave room for salt and pepper.

Sounds like you have a good idea what works for you, so enjoy the journey, the .357 will work fine. Don't forget a couple of "good" knives and a fork to eat all the goodies you find along the way.

bluesman423 · Post by **bluesman423** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:05 am

Here is the list of my pack and attached carry contents:

Bible
10 x 10 tarp
8 x 8 tarp
200’ paracord
Gerber camp axe
Ontario Rat 7
Collapsible Saw
Blade trader w 2 blades (meat and bone saw, fillet)
Burris 8X Monocular
2 extra outer sock
2 extra inner sock
I extra under armour shirt
1 extra under armour pant
2 extra t shirt
1 extra blue jean
M65
M65 liner
military poncho and liner
15 lbs dried veggies, vacuum packed in 3 oz servings
90 day supply vitamin pack
90 day supply 2 kinds insulin, plus syringes, glucometer and supplies, metformin, levothyroxine, aspirin, Tylenol ………… in small waterproof insulated pelican case
Black pepper, garlic powder, salt
Fork, spoon (I hate sporks)
Clear prescription safety glasses, prescription safety sunglasses, reading glasses ( I will be wearing one set of prescription glasses
2 surefire lightweight flashlights, batteries, solar charger for batteries
Inflatable pillow
Sleeping bag
Toilet paper
Soap
Toothbrush
Toothpaste
Solvent, oil, bore snake, m16 brush
Quality duct tape
Snare wire
Fishing line, hooks, weights
Sat phone
4 contractors bags
357 ammo (unknown load but will likely have 175 or 180 gr cast boolit)
38 ammo (95 gr cast bullet at 730 fps)
Rope (140 feet) for climbing and rapelling
Caribineers
First aid supplies including Kwik Clot and suture kits
3 bic lighters
Zip ties
Water filter w extra canister
Wash cloth
Towel
Soap
Pencil
Paper
Q tips
Deodorant
Shoulder canteen (one gallon)
Glucose tablets
Good quality pliers
Hard Arkansas stone
Several gallon and quart Ziploc bags

I submerge my medicines in the cold water creek inside the Pelican case

Over the years I have left two cooking pots, a 12" X 12" x 1/2" piece of flatiron for cooking, a grill to fit across my fire pit and a shovel at the site ............... these items have never been disturbed, probably because this area is likely never visited by humans due to its inaccessibility.

Most of my food needs will be satisfied by trapping or fishing. However, I intend to take small hogs and whitetail to add to my menu if the temp is cool enough to keep the meat while I process it.

I carry a Kershaw FodingField knife in my pocket for cleaning larger game but use the Rat 7 for most camp chores.

Someone asked about tyoes of fish .......... I have caught several varieties of perch, crappie and black bass in the small lake near my campsite ........... I use live bait and almost always use limb lines

If you have questions please ask.