questions about ar build

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:21 pm

first, what are the good sites for finding profusely illustrated building examples ?

second, what components do you ar builders favor?

this will be a pistol build if I don't buy one.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:20 pm

Considering your age, probably going to be a range toy?

Avoid DPMS. Seriously.

For a typical range commando piece, parts aren't going to matter as much as if it's a service/duty rifle, which is my thing.

Talk to 7.62 Precision.

While I generally detest AR-15.com, the technical sections actually have a lot of good info and pictures.
Sweeney's Book of the AR-15 is also good in print form.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:26 am

I built a really nice "pistol" (it was 27" long) --

Principle component was a longer Spikes buffer tube with a somewhat normal length buffer

After that , everything else was easy ---- given that it was a big gun and i had thoughts of SBR'ing it, i used a 11" "CAR-15" style barrel with a Noveske Flaming Pig device on the front to swirl the excess noise out front more so than back to me

Since i had a long buffer and a real carbine length gas tube, - functioning was perfect with no failures other than magazine related ---- oh - and when the cheap bolt carrier's gas key started coming unscrewed -- but that was an easy fix

Use a real M-16 style bolt carrier with the shorty setups and make sure the gas keys are secure

Other than that, the upper and lower receiver and trigger groups were just along for the ride, but i used a combination of Rock River and Yankee Hill parts there

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:30 am

I recently built an M4A1 using exclusively PSA parts. I built the lower, and purchased a complete upper. Spikes tactical makes a great gun for the money too. IMO, you're better off buying a complete upper than spending all the money on special tools unless your going to do several builds.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/
http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/
http://www.aimsurplus.com/

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:53 am

For top quality builds, look at LMT, Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, etc.

You can go more expensive than those, but you are getting very little or nothing over the above companies other than a heavy investment in a strongly marketed logo.

If you want a less expensive build, look at Palmetto State Armory, Delton generally has decent products for the money, Rock River Arms, M&A Parts.

I have been having a lot of trouble with DPMS since they became part of Freedom Group, same with Bushmaster. Avoid Olympic Arms, Model 1 Sales, Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne/AKparts, also be careful of the fact that there are a bunch of very new outfits that jumped into the market for the panic, and their products show a lack of experience in building these rifles.

Edit: There is another company I would avoid, but I can't post publicly, due to a conflict of interests (they have a customer relationship with one of our marketing clients).

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:34 am

See, I got 7.62 to type it all out for me. I grow wiser with age....

I also can not praise a single brand, simply because I worked for them, but any of the major players he mentioned in the first sentence with a very few others (Daniel Defense, LaRue, etc) are among the highest quality you can get. Those are "service/duty" grade guns that will generally work without any issues right out of the box.

RRA, Del-Ton, Spikes, S&W, etc all generally work fine, but you need to give them a once over to make sure everything got put in the right place. I use an M&P15 (which was extensively rebuilt internally by my company at the time) and it has given no issues other than crappy ammo at times. One of our gunsmiths went over it and made sure everything was as it should be. It's not a milspec rifle, but it works well. Once I qual with it i'll carry it on duty till I can afford a BCM and then keep it as a spare. The fact S&W has an excellent warranty is also good.

While I was still in the business, i remained cordial with the DPMS guys at various events, then snickered loudly once they walked away. Not their fault, everyone needs to work, but DPMS has drastically dropped in quality since 2007ish. Not as bad as Olympic once was (Olympic, no matter what anyone says, makes some accurate guns. Making them more than single shots is the problem...) or is, but enough to where I absolutely would not recommend one for duty use.

Coyotes won't overrun your position if you suddenly have your gun lock up or turn into a straight pull bolt action. Using it for LE/military type duty is a bit different.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:36 am

won't be using it for le or military action, I HOPE. BUT I will be using it as primary self-defense and secondary hunting arm. it will be the car gun, the riot gun, and the house gun.

thanks for the tips and suggestions. time to read the newby questions on the specific forums and get more comfortable with the options.

found a foto of what I have in mind.

Sig2.jpg

I could just buy one outright, but for reasons I don't want to publish, I am entertaining the idea of entertaining myself with the build option.

thanks again for the input.

Grizz

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:05 am

first, what are the good sites for finding profusely illustrated building examples ?

Where can one go to get/see good illustrated "How to build an AR" info? Google is fine, but would like informed recommendations...

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:00 pm

Grizz wrote:won't be using it for le or military action, I HOPE. BUT I will be using it as primary self-defense and secondary hunting arm. it will be the car gun, the riot gun, and the house gun.

found a foto of what I have in mind.

Give me a bit, and I will send you some suggestions.

mikld,
I need to post a build tutorial on my website sometime soon. AGI has a pretty good video, but you have to pay a little bit for it. There are a lot of videos and info on the web, some good, some not as good.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:05 pm

thanks 7

here's a little idea of what I'm thinking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsN03ur5xVI

was looking at this for starters, it's a few miles from my house.....

http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-sa-15-re ... tol-lower/

I believe that's an aero precision receiver, but don't know about the internals yet.

and here's a pistol with a parts list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrBBvi1NEa4

and here's what I'm listening to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Ti-eFROZs

Grizz

gary rice · Post by **gary rice** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:53 pm

Ive built 5 of them over the past few years, have dpms also and no problems except a creep in the trigger pull using dpms parts. You just building the lower and intend to buy a complete upper? cmmg makes a good lower parts kit and jd machine and delton are good lowers in my opinion.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:38 pm

I scrounged up some pics of my 2 "pistol" builds -- both were big , because i just didnt see the point of a 223 with a barrel less than 10 or 11" inches

The top one is pretty close to the one you posted a pic of --- almost wish i had kept it -- would've been a good platform to try out the Sig forearm doo-hicky (thinly disguised shorty buttstock )

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Just remember on a pistol build, iron sight radius is a killer for any sort of accuracy. As you do expect defensive use, I suggest an Aimpoint PRO.

Otherwise, stick with a 16" carbine, preferably a midlength gas system if you choose to primarily run irons (longer sight picture, softer recoil) on a long freefloat tube. It's entirely possible to get a standard M16 sight radius on a 16" carbine if you use a long tube.

5.56 is velocity dependant, even with softpoints and JHP, so the shorter you go, the more specific your ammo selection must be.

That's why i'm sticking with a 14.7" (16" after all is done) for a duty rifle for most purposes. Shorter can be handier, but it's also louder and a lot more finicky about reliability. I have never seen a SBR'd AR under 10" barrel, realistically 12" that I'd trust for duty use without a lot of testing.

The one thing that really gets guys who build their own is tolerance stacking. If all the parts are from the same manufacturer, one little screwup's not bad. It's when 2-3 screwups in different parts of the gun add up, and they're not even from the same manufacturer.....life gets complicated. At the very least, keep all the upper bits from the same company (like a complete upper) and the lower/parts kit from as few sources as possible.

gary rice · Post by **gary rice** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:37 pm

Good advice!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:40 am

I can have a loaded pistol in my car. I can't have a loaded carbine in my car. It's a legal technicality, but an unloaded carbine isn't useful to me. I'm happy with the sub2k but I can't have it loaded and to hand in the car.

I shot a lot of deer with a handgun with an 11 inch site radius, and some with a handgun with a 5" site radius. I'm comfortable with that. I suppose I'd want to try a reflex sight.

the barrel length thing is one of the reasons I'm considering a 762x39 upper for the first go. I "think" I could get 30 carbine results. would like input on this point.

Only discussion I've seen so far is that the 30 is harder on the bolt heads. Don't understand this yet.

I like your pistols Doug. Would a piston driven bolt be easier to tune in the shorter barrels?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:30 am

The 7.62x39 has issues in ARs due to the mag curve. The .300 blackout is effectively a 7 62x39 that works in ARs. I understand the pistol in car thing but a standard 9mm with a couple reloads can solve a lot of close in problems giving you time to throw in a mag and chamber.

I've fired a 14.5" M4 inside a Humvee. All the way inside not muzzle out window. It's highly unpleasant. A 10 inch even less so. Just be warned without electronic earpro or a suppressor. Hearing damage is guaranteed as is a lot of flying glass.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:54 am

I am beginning to think that for practical and recreational use, a 300 Blk with 8" or so barrel is the way to go.

I put a spare pair of 45-degree 'backup irons' on mine as the PRIMARY sights, since that angle is way easier and more natural for such a short firearm, where it is heavy and you likely will use both hands most of the time (arm brace or not).

300 Blk is NOT very noisy, even in a pistol, especially if you are ok with the 208 grainers at 1050 fps or so. It is not as handy as a 1911, and 230 grains at 900 fps or so is tried and proven. I think the advantage, if any, would be higher-capacity magazines, and probably a higher likelihood of long range hits; I can hit the 12" gong at 100 yards 8-9 out of 10 with my 300 Blk pistol, but that drops to 5-6 out of 10 with my 1911 I would guess. Certainly I can shoot those ten shots faster with the 300 Blk, as well.

Soon I plan to put a folding adapter on it, and am still undecided on the Arm Brace until I shoot it more; just may not need it.

For TEOTWAWKI purposes, of course the 'standard' 223 would be better in terms of supply and cannibalized parts and ammo, but in that case the ONLY switch needed is a new barrel as all the other parts are the same. So - think about getting a 300 Blk pistol setup, then keep a spare 223 barrel for 'if ever' happens...

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:33 am

You'd be better off just getting a spare upper in that case.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:13 am

Doc

good info, I get it. reading up on the cart and think it's more better than the ak round.

Mr. Murphy, good points. missing mine tho. you get to carry a loaded patrol carbine in your car. I get to carry a loaded patrol pistol in mine. I want to make my life as defendable as yours. would you like to give up your carbine for your pistol with a couple of mags?

Not planning to shoot from the car if I can help it. But my handgun will deafen me in a closed space too. Besides, I already live with high hearing loss, and I'd risk the rest of it to protect my family.

I've been threatened by gangster types while in my vehicle, and the ar or a draco seems to me a much better first responder than the xd. hope you can place yourself in my shoes and understand that my needs aren't different from yours as far as defense of life goes.

Stay sharp, they really are out to get you

Grizz

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:57 am

I have a DPMS from about 2007, and never a problem one with it. I have heard about a lot of problems since then.

If you build a shoulder fired version, then you should consider a couple of different uppers for various calibers that you might want. I am still in the saving phase for a .50 Beowulf upper, and may build a lower for it. If I build a lower, I plan on using a Timney trigger group for the quality. The trigger of any firearm can help or hurt your accuracy, but we all know that.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:08 pm

If you're considering a build you might check with Brownells. Pete Brownell was on the Guntalk radio show last week saying that they were going to be having some stripped lowers on sale very shortly for $49 each.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:37 pm

Piller, like anything in the gun world, you have a sample of one. Glad you got one that works. I'm looking at a sample size of hundreds, and across the board, DPMS has a very low acceptable "works right" rate. I know a cop in Alaska that had to return 12 brand new DPMS rifles for his department. None of them functioned correctly, and ALL of them had different issues (it wasn't a case of Step #127 being missed 12 times, more like 12-17 different things wrong on 12 rifles). He was far from the only case. Thus, I don't recommend them. Ever. Sort of like Kimber 1911s, DPMS has a good repuation and threw it in the crapper due to lack of quality control and lying about issues.

Grizz, I carry a loaded (chamber empty) rifle in a vault in the trunk, if it all. Currently, a 12 gauge in an overhead rack till next month. Duty pistol and a backup inside the car with me.

As a civilian (living in Texas) i can carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle easily. I'm not discussing the legalities, I fully understand the Loaded Rifle vs Loaded "pistol" issue in some states.

What I mean is if you're going to run an AR pistol inside a vehicle, I would have a regular carry pistol with you as well. Get good bonded ammunition, like the 64 grain Gold Dot or any of the 70-75 grain LE type loads and you'll have less issues shooting through glass.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:26 pm

Rusty wrote:If you're considering a build you might check with Brownells. Pete Brownell was on the Guntalk radio show last week saying that they were going to be having some stripped lowers on sale very shortly for $49 each.

eabco has Aero Precision ones for $59 that I have found excellent - http://www.eabco.com.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:27 pm

Aero Precision is good. Even if they are blems, they should still be good - it is a military weapon, after all.

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:51 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Piller, like anything in the gun world, you have a sample of one. Glad you got one that works. I'm looking at a sample size of hundreds, and across the board, DPMS has a very low acceptable "works right" rate. I know a cop in Alaska that had to return 12 brand new DPMS rifles for his department. None of them functioned correctly, and ALL of them had different issues (it wasn't a case of Step #127 being missed 12 times, more like 12-17 different things wrong on 12 rifles). He was far from the only case. Thus, I don't recommend them. Ever. Sort of like Kimber 1911s, DPMS has a good repuation and threw it in the crapper due to lack of quality control and lying about issues.

Grizz, I carry a loaded (chamber empty) rifle in a vault in the trunk, if it all. Currently, a 12 gauge in an overhead rack till next month. Duty pistol and a backup inside the car with me.

As a civilian (living in Texas) i can carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle easily. I'm not discussing the legalities, I fully understand the Loaded Rifle vs Loaded "pistol" issue in some states.

What I mean is if you're going to run an AR pistol inside a vehicle, I would have a regular carry pistol with you as well. Get good bonded ammunition, like the 64 grain Gold Dot or any of the 70-75 grain LE type loads and you'll have less issues shooting through glass.

I understand that this is a sample of one. That is why I did not extrapolate and say that all DPMS firearms were good. My point is that I did get a good one that functions properly. That is also why my son has an AR with a Stag Arms lower and a Colt upper. I have heard about the quality control issues of DPMS since I purchased mine, and was not willing to take a chance when I bought his.

Now that he and I both have one that functions, it is time to start having the fun of building one. I might just built an AR10 size and make it in .308 for my first firearm in that caliber.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:12 pm

Grizz wrote:reading up on the cart and think it's more better than the ak round.
I get to carry a loaded patrol pistol in mine. I want to make my life as defendable as yours.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have a "long pistol" in the car, if you can't carry a carbine.

As far as cartridges go, there are several to consider:

5.56 is a great cartridge and far more effective than people give it credit for, especially with particular bullets. It is more affected by barrel length than other cartridges, but there are good bullets out there for shorter barrel lengths. I would probably not go below 11 or 12" for a 5.56 barrel, though really, I would prefer to stay at least this long in any caliber, for good function. In your case, I would not be opposed to a 14.5" or 16" barreled AR pistol.

7.62x39 has never been made truly reliable in an AR platform. I would not mess with it for self defense. Magazines are the issue.

5.45 works better than 7.62x39 in the AR, but still not as reliable as I would prefer. Don't get one into a 5.56 rifle by accident - I have seen it several times, what a jam!

6.5 Grendel is my first choice of an all purpose round. Like other 6.5mm cartridges, it has advantages over .30 caliber cartridges for hunting and precision/long-range shooting. It hits hard and penetrates well up close. It is designed for the AR platform and is efficient in short barrels, so there is little drop in velocity between long barrels and short barrels. High quality mags are now available, and ammo is priced very reasonably. The chamber was designed for using steel-cased ammo, and the Wolf steel-cased ammo is priced about the same as .223 steel-cased ammo. The Wolf steel-cased 6.5 Grendel was designed and built to Alexander Arm's specifications, so 6.5 Grendel can have the lowest ammunition cost, along with 5.56.

6.8 SPC was designed to give 7.62x39 performance out of an M4 Carbine, once the army determined a 7.62x39 M4 was not viable. It does this very well, but since the 6.5 Grendel does all the 6.8 SPC does, and a lot more, with cheaper ammo and more bullet weight flexibility, I see no reason to mess with 6.8 SPC.

.300 BLK is a neat little cartridge that is great, suppressed or not, for shorter ranges. It is good for hunting in the East where ranges are shorter, and has pretty good terminal performance from short barrels. You have to be careful not to chamber one in a 5.56 rifle - it is a disaster.

I would be plenty confident in a 5.56 for this role, with the correct ammo.

If I wanted an alternate caliber, 6.5 Grendel would be my top choice by quite a margin, followed by 6.8 SPC and .300 BLK.

I would not consider the Russian calibers for self-defense in an AR.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:17 pm

piller wrote: Now that he and I both have one that functions, it is time to start having the fun of building one. I might just built an AR10 size and make it in .308 for my first firearm in that caliber.

When your DPMS was built, most were good and a lot of other manufacturers were sourcing parts from DPMS. The big change came after the Freedom Group purchased them.

One thing to consider on the .308 build is that the rifle will be heavier and the balance different than the 5.56-sized rifles. This may be ok or not with you depending on your preferences and purposes.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:54 pm

Pretty much what 7.62 said on calibers.

I would still be wary about using 6.5 without a decent stockpile of ammo or a second 5.56 upper, but that can be said about any of the newer rounds.

6.8 has some issues with the two different chamber sizes IIRC, and .300 Blackout going from a friend's experience, has excellent terminal performance suppressed or not at 100m on wild hogs he's shot. They frown on shooting people with it in his business (executive protection) for ballistic testing, so he had to compromise.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:50 pm

Thanks for the info. Been reading abt 300blk today and watching videos. several things are attractive to me about the cartridge.
1. I can make brass from 556.
b. I can use the plethora of .308 bullets, including some I shoot in the 762x51.
d. it appears to be reloader friendly.
4. it fits my utility parameters.
f. it penetrates ..... (have to double-check this one).

I will follow up reading about the other calibers you mentioned. Early days on the learning curve.

watching barrel install videos it seems a practical build could involve buying a complete 556 upper and swapping a 300blk barrel into it. doesn't look too delicate to me.

as far as needs and uses go, I'd be confident hunting deer with it, plinking rats and coyotes, quelling isis riots, the usual. perhaps a 458 upper for the larger denizens of the Tongass.

Mr. Murphy, I generally have at least one sidearm on me at all times. two when I depart the premises. The ar-style pistol is an addition to the current tools. Plus, my wife would be very good with it and it would make her feel safer. And make me safer too . . .

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:36 pm

They frown on shooting people with it in his business (executive protection) for ballistic testing, so he had to compromise.

that's funny right there, thanks.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:05 pm

As far as building from stripped lower on up, vs. buying an intact one and swapping out a few parts, I think you'd find if you can mount sling swivels and scopes, most of the 'build' is no more complex than those basic skills. I'd expect either path to get you a functional and enjoyable and reliable firearm. I do tend to favor adjustable gas ports, but I'm more interested in turning down gas to 'not much more than needed' vs. 'make darned sure the thing goes off every time'. At least with an adjustable you get a choice, but there is the remote possibility of the adjustment going out of whack I suppose - mine are set up with double-set-screws and locktited once adjusted, except for a click-adjustable one on the one I sometimes put the Mystic (suppressor) on. Three clicks gives the extra gas when unsuppressed to assure reliability, but I turn it back down when the can is on, and it functions just as well with less blowback.

For barrel swapping you need a wrench, and many forends need a wrench as well (same wrench often does both). Otherwise a few standard punches (ideally both pin and roll-pin type) and a brass/nylon hammer is needed.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:56 pm

Unless you plan on building multiple, buying a complete upper/lower (even if not together) is simpler and less likely to be screwed up. Every potential variation of AR is out there (somewhere) that anyone can think of these days, it's not 1992 where there's a choice between 16 and 20" barrels, and that's it.

What I said about tolerance stacking. It's fairly easy to screw up one minor detail and have a group of things go wrong. Troubleshooting that can get real interesting, especially if you've never done it before.

For a defensive type gun, stick with a good quality manufacturer's complete upper/lower. Build one later for fun or practice as a spare.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:38 pm

MrMurphy wrote:For a defensive type gun, stick with a good quality manufacturer's complete upper/lower. Build one later for fun or practice as a spare.

Good point, I forgot there was a primary mission of defensive use.

Still, there is something to be said for 'knowing your weapon inside and out', and building it yourself gets you there for sure. Once you fire a thousand or so rounds without a hitch, I think the 'build' passes muster (of course if it doesn't, you are faced with a potentially long and frustrating 'learning curve' to make it right...

...been there and done that...

)

One thing for sure, whichever path you choose, you can be sure some of the AR-platform experts here (which I am most definitely not), will help you along the way...!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:44 pm

What I said about tolerance stacking.

I saw that and like the concept. It's introducing multiple variables that can have a cumulative effect, where the goal would be to have the variables offsetting, or reduced to insignificance. I get that. It's a good viewpoint.

thanks

Grizz

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:48 pm

Doc, did you build your aac? Is it suppressed?

after watching the suppressed pistols on youtube I think it would be great for that 'in the car' thing. the developer claims that the 300blk is extremely suppressor friendly.

do you load ammo for yours?

thanks

Grizz

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:02 am

The .300 was specifically designed around suppressor use, though it's not restricted to it. Think of it as a modernized .300 Whisper.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:32 am

Grizz wrote:Doc, did you build your aac? Is it suppressed?

after watching the suppressed pistols on youtube I think it would be great for that 'in the car' thing. the developer claims that the 300blk is extremely suppressor friendly.

do you load ammo for yours?

thanks

Grizz

I got a $59 Aero Precision lower 'for my son' and it was at the FFL for him to pick up and do the paperwork on, then we realized he can't just buy a lower, as he's 20 years old, and technically, a 'stripped lower' could be either a rifle, or a handgun, and you have to be 21 to buy the latter. So, I bought it for myself instead, and just went ahead and bought an 8.5" or so 300 Blk barrel (CMMG) on sale for I think $108. The other parts I had and cannibalized from a carbine build, except I got a Spike's Tactical pistol buffer tube and spring and buffer for I think about $69 or so. So it wasn't a very expensive project.

The suppressor (LibertyCans Mystic) isn't cheap though, but works from subsonic 308 and 35 Remington size rounds on down to 300 Blk and 223 Rem of any velocity, and since it is a take-apart can it cleans up easily after using rimfire rounds. Thus one suppressor I can use on everything from my Mk-III/45 pistol and 10/22's up through 9mm Calico and 223 Rem. I hope to get my 357 Max Contender threaded, and maybe a 357 Mag levergun. It is not 'compact', but is VERY light weight; even on the pistol I don't find it bothersome.

Factory 208 grain subsonic loads cycle it with and without the suppressor without changing the gas setting, as do 125 grain supersonics. None are all that loud without the suppressor, but of course with it, the 208 grainers are comfortable even without hearing protection.

I've loaded some 220 grain Sierra bullets in my Encore single-shot, and they function so far in the AR, but I seat them farther out in the Encore to be closer to the rifling. I got a pound of 1680 powder, and it will last about 700 rounds until I need to look for more, as the load was just under 10 grains, if I recall.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:03 pm

Grizz wrote:
What I said about tolerance stacking.
I saw that and like the concept. It's introducing multiple variables that can have a cumulative effect, where the goal would be to have the variables offsetting, or reduced to insignificance. I get that. It's a good viewpoint.

If ll parts are in spec, preferably very close to the target spec, this is not going to be a problem.

Unfortunately, some manufacturers treat the MIL-SPEC dimensions as less of a hard required target and more of a languid suggestion.

Keep in mind that no matter what any manufacturer claims in their marketing, you and I can't buy a MIL-SPEC rifle, unless we pay big bucks for certain transferable M16 machine guns. Also keep in mind that pretty much every AR manufacturer is buying parts from various sources and putting them together just as you would be. I would not be afraid to assemble your own.

You can build a rifle that will work fine, no problem. I do all the time. Just keep with quality parts, and if you run into an issue, understand troubleshooting techniques. Also, it make it easier if you stick with standard parts. A lot of the issues I have dealt with for people involve things like non-standard hydraulic buffer systems and stuff like that.

I had one customer in particular that had a rifle that would not cycle. I put a standard buffer and spring in it, and it ran fine. He took it back and then spent over $700 replacing parts trying to get the rifle to function with the expensive hydraulic buffer.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:06 pm

Grizz wrote:Thanks for the info. Been reading abt 300blk today and watching videos. several things are attractive to me about the cartridge.
1. I can make brass from 556.
b. I can use the plethora of .308 bullets, including some I shoot in the 762x51.
d. it appears to be reloader friendly.
4. it fits my utility parameters.
f. it penetrates ..... (have to double-check this one).

This is why it is so popular. And you can do some really cool loads. I don't know what you are considering for barrel length, but I have a nice, new 16" .300 BLK barrel here that I could give you at cost. Shhh . . .

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:32 pm

still gathering info and looking at the field of play.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =451773854

is this a quality item?

is this a high, low, or medium price per quality?

is this a run from at any cost item?

is this a "I can do better buying parts and assembling" item?

looking at 458 socom for the second caliber... that would be my alaska woods walking venison making choice. but that's down the road after the 7.62 project materializes...

fun stuff

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:34 pm

Never heard of the manufacturer. Going by what I read, they're a small Class III shop with pretensions.

Considering I've been shooting AR's for going on 25 years, and have shot representatives of every single major AR maker, most of the smaller ones, and used to work for one of the bigger very high quality manufacturers...... toss in the fact I've probably shot upwards of 20-30,000 rounds (on the low end) just through M16s and M4s.... and through "any" AR, probably much closer to the quarter million round mark....

Me not having heard of them is not a good sign.

Some of the components are decent (YHM) or good (BCM). But the build quality and everything else is totally unknown.

I would pass on this like a Darra-built copy of a '92 Winchester chambered in .44 Magnum loaded with unknown handloads, made on a Thursday night....

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:14 am

Thanks so much for the input, and

..... toss in the fact I've probably shot upwards of 20-30,000 rounds (on the low end) just through M16s and M4s.... and through "any" AR, probably much closer to the quarter million round mark....

considering the fact that you've been shooting ARs for about 25 years, I would value your current list of acceptable parts makers and suppliers with your choice of each part in a rifle build, considering that it's a build for my purposes.

Thanks in advance,

Grizz

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:23 pm

Qualifier: I am not a "AR builder" or an armorer. Never took an armorer class (working on that). Anything beyond standard disassembly is not my thing, though I can swap stocks and pistol grips, and I've assisted in a few being built in the "hand me part X" manner and seen it done. I'm no gunsmith, just an end user. That said, I sold to a lot of other end users and I know what I like and what I don't, and I've seen what does and doesn't work in most cases.

Lower: Lowers are less important in the reliability side of things, most of them are pretty similar. Any of the big players (BCM, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Noveske, Knight's Armarment/KAC) in the "better than Milspec" side of the house, then the Big Names (Colt, S&W, Rock River, etc) that most know, will all be fine. Mega, Aero Precision, Stag, CMMG and a lot of the smaller brands are also fine for lowers.

Lower parts kits: Up til 2009 DPMS did well with these. Have not seen them recently but going by their general rep after the buyout, i'd avoid them. Ask 7.62 Precision for specifics.

Trigger: Standard GI 2-stage. If you want an upgrade, the only two I recommend are Geissele (the SSA typically for your role) or the ALG (company is run by Geissele's wife) which is sort of a budget Geissele, but just as good. Rock River has a 2-stage match trigger which works excellently, until it doesn't. Then you're stuck. For a range/hunting gun I recommend them, for serious work I can't, as I've seen a few fail. On the "Geissele or nothing" thing, Geissele is the only aftermarket trigger SOCOM specifically authorizes for use on their rifles. That should tell you something.

Selector switch: The standard one works fine for me, if you want an ambi there are multiple good options out there with a little looking.

Stock: I understand you want a pistol build, but if it comes down to it, Vltor, Magpul, BCM's new Gunfighter stock and the original Crane NSW stock are the only "better than the original M4" stock I typically use. I currently use a Magpul CTR, and one Rifle #2 i'll probably go to an STR.

Charging handle: BCM Gunfighter (you keep seeing that name for a reason). It assists in one-hand charging without eventually breaking the pin and screwing it up. The older large charging handles from a couple different sources were not reinforced in this area and eventually broke. The PRI Gas-Buster was well thought of for years, and still works, but after a few thousand repetitions the pin can snap.

Front sight/gas block: If you run a low-pro gas block or an aftermarket one, I prefer the pinned and screwed ones. Not everyone puts them on right. I've shot the #(&!^ out of some that use the screw and little dent in the barrel exterior which held on fine, but I've also seen one or two shoot loose over time. The pin makes sure it stays on. Thus why the government uses that type on the original fixed front sight.

Pistol grip: Personal preference. I use a Magpul MIAD, others prefer Ergo, BCM, etc. All up to you.

Fore-end: For a pistol, you can't use a vertical foregrip (which I do use on a rifle). A freefloat rail is nice, though for a very short range piece like you are contemplating, it's extra weight and money. I can't remember offhand if Magpul makes a pistol-length MOE handguard. I know they make the 7" Carbine length one, which should work. Add a light mount to it and you're in business.
If you choose to go the short freefloat rail direction:

LaRue
Daniel Defense
Troy/VTAC, though I don't think they make one short enough for your case.
YHM, Midwest Industries and a few others are ok, but in many cases, heavier than necessary or bulkier.

Light: You need a light for a defensive gun. Period. I use a LaRue LT606-1 with a Surefire in it. If you go the MOE route, there are cheaper options that work fine. I needed the QD option and used it every day on and off the gun due to circumstances at the time. Surefire's single-stage Fury, 500 lumens, is the current standard in eye-melting room clearing lights. I'm in the process of upgrading to several of them. 200 lumens is the minimum "acceptable" these days. 100-120 can get it done, but 300+ is far better.

I started out room clearing with a GI angle-head flashlight, upgraded to a 65 lumen 6P, then a 90 lumen G3. 500 is VERY nice to have....

Sights: If you plan on going irons most of the time the Magpul MBUS Pro is inexpensive, metal and work well.
If they're only going to be backups, the MBUS original (plastic) work well. Despite being plastic, they have survived extreme abuse in many cases and haven't broken. Troy was the industry standard for years, and are often on new rifles branded with whatever brand (S&W for example) as an OEM part. They're also expensive as hell.

Optic: There is only one choice I recommend for the role you're looking at. Aimpoint. The H-1 Micro is smaller and lighter, but $600. The PRO is half that, and has a 3- year constant on battery life. Both will survive an amazing pounding without any issues. I know of an Aimpoint Comp M2 (2-3 generations prior) which survived a helicopter crash. Rifle was bent into an L, optic still worked even when the helicopter and the rifle did not. I know of another one that survived an IED. Rifle was in three pieces. Optic survived and went on the rifle's replacement.

Others will work, but have their own issues. Eotechs (battery life and general frailty, though they're awesome for aerial gunnery and machine guns), Meprolight/Trijicon Reflex (dot fades in bright contrasts) C-More (built for gaming, not combat), etc.

These are my opinions, and only mine, formed from experience and observation. I first shot an AR in 1992, first shot an issued M16 in 1996, carried one daily from 2005-2008 and have had a civilian AR either with me, near me or immediately accessible from 2000-today at just about all times except where work frowned on it. I did nothing but talk ARs among experienced guys (not the gun shop crowd, but at the SWAT team member/infantry company commander or higher level) for just over a year, 10-14 hours a day.

Take the opinions for what you will, this is purely speaking as to defensive use.

I will always recommend a complete upper/lower from one manufacturer with a few upgrades over a parts gun unless I know the builder pretty well.
My current "near perfect rifle" is a BCM 14.7", 12" Keymod rail, collapsing stock, MIAD pistol grip, Fury on the rail and a quick-adjust VTAC sling. That's what I'm saving for as my new duty rifle.

We're issued Colt 6920s, which, aside from 1.5" more barrel and lacking the group therapy option on the selector switch, is identical to an issued military M4. Nothing wrong with those either, but I like having "mine".

Edit: You always forget something.....

Barrels: Lightweight or medium contour. The "M4" profile is fine, but you won't be using a grenade launcher so it's irrelevant. Everyone has a favorite barrel maker. I am used to Lothar Walther, others like Noveske, etc are also excellent.
Twist: 1 in 7 or 1 in 8. Both will stabilize 55 to 75 grain loads. The heavier loads tend to show up in the bonded softpoint/JHP serious-use loads for LE. 1 in 9 will work but restrict you primarily to the 55-60 grain crowd.
Flash suppressor/compensator/brake: The standard "A2" works fine for almost anything. If you plan to suppress, the Surefire flash suppresor/brake works well. There are a few others that also work well, but to start, the A2 is quite good.

Optic mounts: To borrow from someone else. If LaRue is an option, it is the answer. ADM and Daniel Defense are also fine and will hold zero well. If you need to repeatedly remove or adjust it, LaRue. BoBro works fine, until it doesn't (there's an internal tension spring, that if it breaks, you're stuck). GDI has a good reputation but I have not used them so can't recommend them unilaterally. AR's are not Remington 700s, don't go sticking Super Extra High Rings or something on there. Use an AR specific optic mount.

If you go with the Aimpoint PRO, the LaRue LT150 or LT129 are the standard by which all others are judged in Aimpoint mounts. I prefer the LT129, but I also often use a magnifier, the 129 allows that. The 150 is fine if you're going to run it alone.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:44 pm

Thanks for the input, I can use that info in a spreadsheet and filter what I see around the stores.

Starting with 300BLK and will buy a 556 barrel for the option, probably the common 14.5" length for the pistol theme.

Eventully I will buy or build a 458SOCOM upper for the AK beach cruiser mode. I don't like to annoy 'em with smallbores.

Grizz

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:54 pm

Grizz wrote:Eventully I will buy or build a 458SOCOM upper for the AK beach cruiser mode. I don't like to annoy 'em with smallbores.

That's what I like about my Beowulf...

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:56 pm

The barrel info was specific to 5.56. I can get you very detailed specifics on .300 BLK from my friend who's shot a ton of them both professionally and for hunting purposes. If you need it, PM me.

The .458 and .50 look interesting. I haven't tried either yet (had a chance with the Beowulf but he ran out of ammo before he ran out of shooters) but for a short range, fast handling package, I could see it doing very well.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:24 pm

Here are my thoughts:

First of all, there are no civilian market MIL-SPEC rifles being built today. Period. No matter what the manufacturer says. If you want a true MIL-SPEC rifle, your choice is a pre-'86 transferable machine gun or a pre-'86 transferable machine gun.
In many ways this is not a problem. In the civilian market, we can get all kinds of cool variations built on the basic platform we call an AR-15. For example, stainless barrels are not MIL-SPEC, but I like them for a precision rifle. Also, if every manufacturer made sure their rifles were MIL-SPEC, and certified to be, we would pay a lot more. There are serious costs involved. The MIL-SPEC requirements are simply in place to ensure the government gets what it is paying for.

On the other hand, it can be a problem, because we have a ton of manufacturers and assemblers who hold themselves to different standards. One company may feel that everything the build should be as close to spec as possible, while another may feel that if 15% of their rifles are returned by customers for function issues, that is acceptable as their manufacturing costs are kept low enough to justify it. Even the best manufacturers are likely not gaging every rifle coming off the line to make sure they are in spec. Only for government contracts are they going to bother with the extra expenses. I suspect that even manufactures who build for government contracts use any parts that are slightly out of spec, or at the edge of spec, in their LE and civilian market rifles. Most AR rifles will run fine even with some parts out of spec a bit.

Lower:
Most good lowers are built by a handful of companies. How far they are finished by these companies before they are sent to their customers varies by customer. A bunch of little outfits are machining lowers today, but prices are similar, so stay with trusted companies. There rare lists you can find that generally who who makes lowers for different companies. You will generally have good luck with lowers from manufacturers like CMT, LMT, Mega Machine, LAR, Aero, etc. Exernal dimensions will vary a lot between manufactures, but what is critical is location of pin holes, and magwell dimensions, etc.
One common issue with the magwell is that if the manufacturing lets their tooling get dull/worn, the pressure required to gut the magwell will stretch the aluminum outward, and when the aluminum returns to shape after cutting it is too tight. This causes issues with magazines dropping free.

Upper:
Same as lower, get one from a trusted source. I like an ejection port cover, and I like a forward assist - it allows a bolt to be closed silently.
Again, if tooling is dull, dimensions may be off. A common issue is in the radius at the bottom where the magazine feed lips go - if this is too shallow, you will have seating problems.

I am not big on the fancy, expensive, non-standard uppers and lowers. A lot of the popularity of those is just about cool looks and not any real advantage in function.

Lower parts:
DPMS has always been good, and used by a lot of manufacturers, but I am slow to trust them these days. RRA seems to work well, and CMMG has as far as I have seen. RRA two-stage is the best inexpensive match trigger I have seen, but I prefer a single-stage for any self-defense of combat use.

My favorite aftermarket trigger is the Alexander Arms trigger with the blade-style trigger. It is a great trigger and is bombproof. It is designed for combat where dirt and debris can stop a lot of other match-type triggers.
http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/Trigge ... igger.html

On the selector lever, I don't mind an ambi lever if the right side lever is short. Otherwise, it hits my hand. A standard selector is fine. When you install, check it in the safe position to see how much sear/hammer movement you get on safe. I have seen them almost drop the hammer on safe.

Check the sear engagement on the hammer for positive (or neutral, depending on the trigger) engagement. On most AR triggers you don't want negative engagement.

Stock:
I don't like fat stocks - they can be an issue with certain types of fighting, though I have used a VLTOR stock in combat and liked it just fine. I usually use the IDF-issue GLR-16 stock, and also the GL-SHOCK. I have started using the GL-MAG on some rifles, especially for a home or vehicle defense carbine.
http://www.7-62precision.com/m4-ar-15-s ... r-buttpad/
http://www.7-62precision.com/recoil-red ... -15-stock/
http://www.7-62precision.com/m4-ar-15-s ... e-carrier/

Charging handle:
Standard charging handle is fine. If you want better, use the BCM gunfighter. It supports the latch so you don't break the pin. Everything else with an extended latch will generally break eventually.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFI ... -s/123.htm

Front sight/gas block:
I like a fixed front sight, pinned to the barrel. It is tough, always there, not in the way of shooting, and I don't have to reach forward to flip it up. Also, it is on the part of the rifle that gets banged into things the most.
As far as gas blocks, a set-screw type is fine as long as the barrel is dimpled for the screws. If the barrel is not dimpled, then eventually the gas block will work forward under recoil. There are two forces at work. The first is the recoil, and the second is the heat. Heat causes metal to expand, that is why you use it to loosen a ring around a shaft, like a nut on a bolt, or . . . a gas block on a barrel. Clamp on blacks often are more secure than a set screw type, and any block can be drilled for a set screw or pin for more security.
I prefer steel to aluminum. Different metals expand differently with heat. Some aluminum blocks will leak more gas when hot.
Alignment with the gas port is key when installing.

Pistol grip:
I don't like A2 grips (I liked the A1 grips better). I have tried a number of grips, and found many I dislike, and some I like. I like the VLTOR grip. I now use the IDF AG-43 and AGR-43 grips almost exclusively. The reason is that they were designed very specifically, not just for shooting, but also for handling the rifle one-handed while perfuming other tasks with the off-hand, like clearing jams, reloading, moving, dealing with a threat or a non-combatant, etc.
People will come to a carbine course swearing up and down that they will never use any other grip than X Brand grip, but after I let them use one of the IDF grips in an actual course, they will almost always switch to it.
http://www.7-62precision.com/israeli-de ... -m4-ar-15/
http://www.7-62precision.com/rubberized ... -m4-ar-15/

Handguards/Rails:
I like to keep this as simple and light as possible. There are tons of options. For a precision rifle, free-float the barrel. For a carbine or pistol, free-floating is generally not to much of an issue.

Lights:
I agree that the light is important. However, for most purposes, it is possible for the light to be too bright. There is a marketing race between light manufacturers, and it is about sales, not effectiveness. The range you want is between 100 and 200 lumens. Above that, and there are some disadvantages for close in or interior use.
Most important is the width of the beam. You want to hit the point of aim with a bright beam, and also illuminate the rest of a room, without flooding the room with light or blinding yourself off wall corners.

Backup Sights:
I have used MATECH sights a lot. I know a lot of people don't like them, simply because not liking them gave them an excuse to pull them off their issue rifles and replace them with cool expensive sights. For most purposes they work well and are nice and simple. I mostly use the FAB RBS. They are the strongest polymer sights and very simple in use.
http://www.7-62precision.com/folding-back-up-sight-set/
http://www.7-62precision.com/folding-ba ... ight-rear/
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/si ... 26575.aspx

Sling:
My favorite is the single point sling from Savvey Sniper. They are not well known, but their sling designs have been copied by a lot of the big names. They are great people, too.
http://www.savvysniper.com

Flash hider:
Believe it or not, the $6 A2 flash hider has proven to be more effective than almost any other in reducing flash signature, and more effective than many aftermarket brakes in reducing muzzle rise/recoil, too. The YHM Phantom flash hider is not to expensive if you need to extend barrel length, and the Phantom brake is pretty good for reducing recoil without being too loud. You can pay as much as you like for a muzzle device, and people do.

Optics:
You can save a lot of money using some of the cheaper imported optics. You can save you life (or save that trophy buck from bounding over the hill) with quality optics.
I don't understand the reluctance to buy quality optics. I have seen people purchase $2500 rifles and put $150 optics on them. They would have been better off with a $450 Savage and a $600 Leupold.
I have watched people shoot through $200 worth of ammo trying to zero an $80 optic.
Quality costs money when it comes to optics. Spend enough to get quality, but don't go crazy with the cost unless you can afford it and just want to. A $2400 ELCAN is nice but . . .
For a fighting carbine, use a full-sized optic. I know the micro optics are all the rage right now, but again, that is marketing. Once I have sold my sight to everyone, how do I sell them another? By taking my micro optic that I designed for a pistol or certain compact firearms, and giving it to all the instructors and writers for free, so they promote it as the next great thing for carbines!
research has proven that around 30mm is the ideal size for the aperture on a reflex sight for a fighting carbine. Larger is no advantage with an increase in cost, weight, and bulk. Smaller requires a higher mount (negating most advantage in size or weight) and more precise head placement (negating most of the advantage of a reflex sight).
Simpler is better. Buttons that have to be pressed repeatedly are not the best idea. A gazillion brightness settings are needed why?

I use the three following reflex sights, having sold all my others long ago:

Mepro MOR
This is one of the simplest, yet most advanced sights out there. It is completely redundant with three methods of illumination, two completely separate and redundant electronic circuits, and three aiming systems - the reticle, a visible laser, and an IR laser. All systems zero simultaneously with one adjustment and the QR mount is built in. It is also quite expensive.
http://www.7-62precision.com/mepro-mor- ... -pointers/

Mepro M21
This sight is on my home defense carbine, my bear defense carbine, my IDF clone that i often use as a vehicle carbine, and the KPOS that I carry in a bag sometimes. It is my favorite reflex sight. It has no switches, no buttons, no electronics, no batteries, and no internal moving parts. The thing is always on, always ready, and basically bulletproof. Parts are threaded together, not just glued, and it is isolated quite a bit from the mount, so it is not affected by thermal cycling like other optics are. Bill Alexander says it is the only optic he has not broken doing testing on Beowulf loads.
Because the thing is so simple and so reliable, it is my first choice for any self-defense application.
http://www.7-62precision.com/mepro-m21- ... lex-sight/

Mepro TRU-DOT RDS
I have just started using this sight and it is a really great sight. I have used the M5 that it descended from for years; since the M5 was a prototype. With a really long battery life and auto-shutdown/reactivation it is also a great choice for defensive use. It is probably the best deal in optics today, since it really should have a retail price of over $600, and uses some of the newest technology available.
http://www.7-62precision.com/mepro-tru- ... a-red-dot/

I have used Aimpoints extensively in the past and like them. I have used EOTechs as well, and they work well too, mostly. (I have used other sights too, like ELCANS and ACOGS, but they are in a different category, being magnified optics). I am familiar with a lot of other reflex sights of various quality, but have not used them extensively.

Barrels:
This is the heart of the AR, when it comes to accuracy. I use 1/7 or 1/8 twist rates because I prefer heavy bullets. Others may prefer lighter bullets and want slower rates, but for self-defense, the heavier bullets are best. As far as the style, length,materials, and manufacturer, that all depends on purpose and preference. Most people will want to pay enough for quality, but not so much that they are just paying for a name.

Price:
When it comes to ARs, the price range I generally would try to be in for a high-quality defensive carbine would be in the $950 to $1200 range for a complete rifle. This gets you into LMT, BCM, DD, Colt range. Any higher, and you are paying for the logo on the side of the rifle, for no advantage.
If you are building it, you can get a bit lower.
You can still get a very good, reliable carbine in the $650 to $900 range, you just have to be more careful about who you get it from and test for reliability (just as you would do with any rifle, regardless of cost).

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:13 pm

As you can see, there's a lot of opinions.

As to the milspec thing, some are closer than others, such as a 6920 from Colt (the only reason it's not milspec is it's sold to civilians, and the gov inspectors don't inspect it. But same materials and processes).

It's not the end all and be all. It's the BARE MINIMUM that should be expected for a serious-use rifle.

You can go with oddball, weird or lesser materials, and skip steps of testing that are involved in the process, and save money. And when the bolt breaks because it wasn't magnetic particle inspected......well.....you got what you paid for.

You can also go significantly "better" than milspec in regards to accuracy and things, though the materials will be different (such as stainless barrels). It's not worse, it's just different. Something like a Noveske or KAC doesn't use the same materials as a milspec M16, but I guarantee the quality of the materials and the build are better.....which is how you get a half-minute rifle, not a 3-4 MOA M16.

I prefer two point quick adjust slings. Background, training and experience. Other guys like 7.62 like single points (whereas I hate them with a passion for anything but shoothouses, and even then sometimes)...it all depends on the user and the end use.

As to lumens of light, that is debatable, and again, experience/training/uses come into play. I used to regularly clear buildings that had 100m X 50m wide open internal spaces. A 100 lumen light didn't do nearly enough. A 500 still could be better. For room to room stuff, 200 is 'fine' and 500 is 'better'. You won't blind yourself with a reflection, but it also depends on the light, the throw and flood of the beam. A wide flood 500 lumen light with a good throw for 50 yards is excellent for most indoor/short range outdoor use. A 500+ lumen light with a tight focused beam and a very long throw is better for guys getting into midrange urban work where NV is not an option.

Currently, I can regularly run into situations where i'm lighting up a room not much bigger than a closet, or illuminating a target 80 yards across a wooded backyard. And there's only 3 or 4 steps difference between the two on the same property.

I use a 600 lumen handheld, and there's been times it didn't throw or flood enough. Ever try clearing the inside of a Catholic church (a large one) with four guys? I have. The main sanctuary sucked up every lumen we had and we could ID stuff on the far side, but if it came down to shoot/don't shoot against a human, it would have been iffy.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:21 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Grizz wrote:Eventully I will buy or build a 458SOCOM upper for the AK beach cruiser mode. I don't like to annoy 'em with smallbores.

That's what I like about my Beowulf...

other than being slightly rough on squils, that looks like the one gun to do it all if you hand load some shot shells.