"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

[bluesman423]

Colonel Townsend Whelen said it .................... "Only accurate rifles are interesting" .............. obviously he never fell in love with lever rifles:)

Currently pulling my hair out trying to get my new to me Marlin 1894PG (44 mag with 1:38 ballard rifling) to shoot better than a 5.5" three shot group at 100 yards .............. any suggestions?

To date I have tried the following:

240 grain Remington and Winchester factory loads

200 gr, 240 gr, 265 gr and 300 gr cast boolits sized from bore diameter to 1.5 thousandths over bore diameter ................. some were lubed with blue lube, some with LLA and some were powder coated.
I have also loaded 240 gr and 300 gr Hornady XTPs.

I have used H110, Lil Gun and 2400 powder in combination with all of the bullets.

The crown is perfect .............. buttstock and forend fit correctly, I have even fired the rifle with the forend and mag tube removed.

The bore is squeaky clean and free of all leading, looks good.

I have changed out the scope and checked the scope mounts twice.

I do not think it is me because I have no trouble getting VERY good groups with my 444 and 1894C. All of my rifles wear a Leupold M8 4X scope.

The trigger is not great but no worse than my other Marlins.

This was to be my main hunting and kickin' around my land rifle but not if it can't do any better than this. Any suggestions from you guys before I chunk this thing?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I'm thinking that 1 in 38" is too slow to stabilize with any consistency. This was one of the reasons the Rossi with it's 1 in 28" tends to be more accurate even though some feel the 1 in 28" is too slow as well.

[bluesman423]

I traded an early Interarms Rossi in on this rifle because I have had to go all scopes and can't seem to get used to a "scout" mounted scope. The Rossi groups were less than half this size for five shots at 100 yds with a side mounted Lyman receiver sight. My eyes are such that I could no longer use the peep.

But on the other hand I have a 1:38 444 (micro groove) that will stabilize my 265 gr and 300 gr cast boolits just fine .......... maybe the extra velocity helps?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I traded an early Interarms Rossi in on this rifle because I have had to go all scopes and can't seem to get used to a "scout" mounted scope. The Rossi groups were less than half this size for five shots at 100 yds with a side mounted Lyman receiver sight. My eyes are such that I could no longer use the peep.

But on the other hand I have a 1:38 444 (micro groove) that will stabilize my 265 gr and 300 gr cast boolits just fine .......... maybe the extra velocity helps?

Absolutely, that's why the Rossi's at 1 in 30" work when folks see normal twist for pistol cals around 1 in 18" to 1 in 22".
Short barrel pistols don't produce the higher FPS.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

BTW check out this post;
Model 94 AE 45 Colt

[BrentD]

Colonel Townsend Whelen said it .................... "Only accurate rifles are interesting" .............. obviously he never fell in love with lever rifles:)

Well, if you want to find out how accurate the good Colonel's rifle really was, you can buy it a week from this Saturday. It is up for sale.
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/104/84.html $10k might be enough (probably not).

[Shasta]

I have a Marlin Cowboy .44 Magnum with that same 1-38" twist Ballard rifling, and it too has a large .431" bore size. I have worked with it extensively trying to get it to shoot cast bullets accurately with consistency.
The slow twist works best with lighter bullets, which of course must be sized one or two thousandths over bore size. The 220 grain Lyman 429215 gas checked bullet sized at .432" shoots pretty well using 14.0 grains of Blue Dot powder and a Winchester Large Pistol primer in Starline brass. Velocity is right at 1,400 FPS. At 50 yards five shots made one ragged hole an inch around. It won't do it every time, but comes close. This has become my standard load for this rifle.
Another lighter bullet I tried was Accurate #433205C, a custom mould that drops a .433" bullet weighing 210 grains. With 6.0 grains of TiteGroup and a Federal Large Pistol Magnum primer, it shot about as well, but velocity was only 1,175 FPS.
I have found that with this rifle, loads don't perform all that well on paper, but it seems to shoot plenty good enough for offhand Cowboy Lever Action silhouette. I've used it for both the Pistol Cartridge discipline and the Rifle Cartridge discipline, and it has no trouble taking down 50+ lb. rams at 200 meters if I do my part.
Before you give up on it, try shooting your rifle offhand or however you are most likely to shoot in a hunting situation. It might just do better than you would think.

SHASTA

[7.62 Precision]

For me, only rifles that can fire heavy-for-caliber bullets are interesting.

From photos I have seen, it seems that Col. Whelen found several lever-actions interesting, so he must have found some accurate ones!

[w30wcf]

Sorry to hear of your accuracy issues. I will say that I have a .44-40 Marlin with a 1 in 38" twist and it shoots 250 gr cast bullets (Lyman 429667 in w.w alloy) really well at 1,200 f.p.s......... all the way out to 300 meters.

I would suggest removing the magazine & forearm and shooting the rifle with the barrel only to see if it shoots a lot better.
If so, have a gunsmith (or yourself) provide a little clearance between the barrel and the barrel bands. Also, perhaps a little clearance would be beneficial between the barrel and forearm.

w30wcf

[AJMD429]

It really isn't the twist rate, as NKJ said - it's the revolutions per minute that matters, vs. the bullet length.

So, velocity matters just as much as twist rate. That's the problem when people try to fire subsonic loads in a gun that was ok for regular loads. Then, if they don't use the heavier (longer) bullet that is so tempting when going subsonic, it makes matters worse.

As far as the 1894 Marlins - My son's shoots everything we stuff in it to a pretty consistent point, though it isn't exactly a varmint rifle. Never has failed to hit the mid-heart of a dozen or so deer, though, at ranges from 25 to 100 yards.

Here's an older Range Report on his MICROGROOVE Marlin - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21695

If I recall, his was 0.431" and mine about the same, but mine not as accurate (and we exchanged guns to see that it wasn't me ). Both the Rugers (96/44 & 77/44) have 1:20 barrels and should be better with heavier bullets, but didn't outshoot his old Marlin. The bolt action 77/44 didn't like light bullets though.

Of course all the testing and 'data' we do still are a drop in the bucket of potential combinations, so we are really out on limbs when we try to make assumptions to generalize to 'all Marlins' or 'all Microgroove barrels' or 'all light bullets' or even 'all leverguns'.

Still, if I want a gun that is highly likely to be a tack-driver I will buy a bolt action with a heavy stiff barrel, or perhaps a break-open, or an AR-15, instead of a levergun. However, that's boringly easy to do - what's really FUN is when you get a levergun, that isn't supposed to be accurate, and either luck out and it is a tack-driver, or find a load that makes it shoot that way. (It would be almost as much fun to find a bolt-action that carried as handily, shot as fast, and was as cool-looking as a levergun, too...)

You could try Gas Checks if you haven't already - they are usually large enough diameter to be snug even in overbore barrels, and it seems to help.

Another more major option, if you really like the firearm, but can't get an accurate load worked up, would be to re-barrel it with either a new 44 Mag barrel, or a 45 Colt barrel (I did the latter with a Marlin 1894, not for accuracy reasons, but just because I wanted a 45 Colt Marlin 1894 and couldn't find any affordable ones, but found a new 45 Colt barrel for one at Numrich for $109.00 or so - someday I'll shoot it for accuracy and see what comes of it).

Before re-barreling, I'd try all the accurizing options in the parent-site's article(s) on 'Accurizing the Levergun' by Paco; it may be that the oversize bore isn't the whole issue, or even the major issue.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Back in Whelen`s day people were striving to find a minute of angle rifle. Most would only get close.
Today we even have semi auto military rifles that do that well or better.
I remember my dads old Remington .244 could shoot into 1" @100yd regularly and he had many offers to buy that gun.

[w30wcf]

"It really isn't the twist rate, as NKJ said - it's the revolutions per minute that matters, vs. the bullet length."

Bingo! We have a winner!

w30wcf

[Malamute]

Some of the guns with 38" twist barrels shoot very well. It was standard for 44 mag and 44 Mariin for ages. The older 44 I had shot about 2 3/3" groups with Win factory 240's and I think a 4x scope. Not spectacular, but better than what you're getting, and in the ok for deer range.

Try looking through your barrel in a good light, can you see the fore end hanger dovetail showing in the bore? I've seen several that printed the dovetail into the bore. They may shoot ok like that, but I'd bet if they show, its likely to not shoot as well as it should.

[EdinCT]

I have owned two 1894 Marlins one in micro groove and a cowboy ballard rifled. The micro 1/38 was the most accurate. If its not a forearm rubbing or a band issue I would suggest checking for tight spots. I will say my 1895 shows them under the sight dovetails and magazine hanger and still shoots good. I recently shot 5 fire lapping bullets through it trying to make it a better cast shooter. You may consider that also. I think the lapping bullets came in boxes of 50.
Don't give up to soon I also would check the groves filed into the barrel bottom for the band screws.

[Rusty]

If you want to try firelapping, you can get the lapping compound from LBTmolds.com along with instructions on how to use it.
Firelapping will help jacketed bullets shoot better as well.

[williamranks]

Might be a dumb question, won't be my first. How are you shooting it? If bench resting are you putting it back on the front rest in the same place with the same pressure every time?
I think Shasta has the answer for the next step, try off hand. Big bore barrels aren't all that thick for the caliber or stiff.

[tray]

I do not see how there is a difference between the two. You say it isn't the twist rate, it is the rpm. In a short pistol cartridge rifle like the 1894 Marlin 44 magnum, If we want rpm we have to get the fps high enough to produce the rpm in a 1/38 barrel. That takes plenty of space in the cartridge to get the powder charge to accomplish this. Or, you can accomplish the same spin(rpm) by increasing the twist rate. That is what the term "twist rate" implies. The faster the twist rate the more rpm's the bullet spins per given inches of barrel traveled. This implies a 1/20 twist rate in a 20' barrel would develop more rpm for a given powder charge than a 1/38 twist rate in a 20" barrel. Will a 1/20 twist rate in a 20" barrel produce a better group than a 1/38? That depends on other factors. Myself, I would like to try a 1/16 twist rate in a Marlin 1894 44 magnum rifle. What makes me think it would work? After all Mic McPherson flat refuses to put a 1/20 barrel on a 44 magnum Marlin be cause he claims they won't shoot worth a hoot. What makes me think it could be made to shoot with a faster twist than a 1/38 is all the other pistol cartridge rifles that use faster twist rates that work. AND the fact that Paco Kelly has a Winchester "Black Shadow" in 444 that has a 1/12 twist and I doubt ten tall Indians could pry it out of his hands. I don't claim to be an expert on anything. But I do not buy the train of thought that Marlin 1894 44 magnum shooters have to accept a 1/38 twist rate to get their rifles to group well.

[w30wcf]

"I do not see how there is a difference between the two. You say it isn't the twist rate, it is the rpm."
Trey,
Take for example a standard 12" twist .30 Caliber barrel. A 180 gr cast bullet shoots really well.....as long as the muzzle velocity is over 1,300 f.p.s. or so. At 1,100 f.p.s., muzzle velocity, the holes in the target are a bit elongated which indicates that the bullet is not completely stable.

I have a .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy which has a 1/38" twist. It shoots 350 gr, cast bullets just fine only if the muzzle velocity is in excess of 1,300 f.p.s. At 1,200 f.p.s. muzzle, the bullet holes are a bit elongated, indicating instability. At 1,390 f.p.s. muzzle velocity it shoots really well out at 500M (547 yards) which reinforces the notion that the bullet rpm's at launch decay very slowly.....

w30wcf

[AJMD429]

What I/we were trying to express is that the ultimate issue is ONLY the RPM/length, and it of course matters what the 'twist' rate is, but no more than what the 'velocity' of your load is. The volume of the cartridge case is often the ultimate determinant of what the maximum RPM will be, but of course the twist rate of the barrel determines the velocity needed for adequate RPM.

[7.62 Precision]

What I/we were trying to express is that the ultimate issue is ONLY the RPM/length, and it of course matters what the 'twist' rate is, but no more than what the 'velocity' of your load is. The volume of the cartridge case is often the ultimate determinant of what the maximum RPM will be, but of course the twist rate of the barrel determines the velocity needed for adequate RPM.

This is exactly right, except that we look at things from certain perspectives.

So if we are making a firearm, we say, this is the diameter, velocity, and bullet length range for this cartridge, so if we are building a gun for it, this twist rate will stabilize that cartridge best. Most cartridges have limits to velocity and bullet length, while twist rate is unlimited, so the manufacturer chooses the best twist rate for the cartridge. We don't try to change the velocity of the cartridge to match the rifle, we built the bore to match the cartridge.

So if we now have to play with velocities and bullet weight to make a cartridge work in a certain bore, then there is one of 4 things going on:

1. The manufacturer made a poor choice in the rate of twist chosen for that particular firearm.

2. The cartridge has changed over the years; bullets commonly used became heavier or lighter, velocities increased, etc.

3. The cartridge is a small diameter cartridge for which the twist rate should be chosen depending on the length of projectiles intended to be used (like 5.56mm, 6mm, etc.)

4. The shooter is attempting to load cartridges outside of the range for which the firearm was intended.

So if we are trying to adjust velocity of a specific cartridge in order to make it work through the rifling of a certain barrel, then the issue likely can be found in the above list.

So the perspective we usually look at the problem from is, naturally, "What twist rate will best stabilize common loads for this caliber?" not, "What velocity do I need to make this bullet go stabilize it with this barrel?

[Chuck 100 yd]

Exactly, The .44 Mag. and the .444 Marlin were designed around the 240 gr. bullet and people try to make it into something it was not intended to be.

[Malamute]

Exactly, The .44 Mag. and the .444 Marlin were designed around the 240 gr. bullet and people try to make it into something it was not intended to be.

Intended. The original intentions aren't necessarily set in stone as the only use. The original twist rate was based on the 240 gr loads, and were standard for many years. They worked moderately well, and still should within that bullet weight, but the newer, heavier bullets available like faster twists for optimal accuracy. Its interesting that many get decent results with the heavier bullets and slower twists. If theres accuracy problems within the original bullet weight range, there may be other problems besides the twist rate, and I wouldn't automatically blame the twist rate if heavier bullets don't shoot well. With heavier bullets, it seems hit or miss as to how they shoot in the slower twists.

[AJMD429]

With heavier bullets, it seems hit or miss as to how they shoot in the slower twists.

I've always thought it strange how that works - you'd think there would be more consistency, but maybe different brands of bullets have slightly different centers of gravity or ogive shapes that make a difference, or maybe some "1:16" twist barrels are really 1:15 or 1:17. I also wonder (more with super-fast velocities and long bullets) how often the jacket gets the high-rpm's, but the lead core shears away and gets a lesser rpm.

[Nath]

With heavier bullets, it seems hit or miss as to how they shoot in the slower twists.

I've always thought it strange how that works - you'd think there would be more consistency, but maybe different brands of bullets have slightly different centers of gravity or ogive shapes that make a difference, or maybe some "1:16" twist barrels are really 1:15 or 1:17. I also wonder (more with super-fast velocities and long bullets) how often the jacket gets the high-rpm's, but the lead core shears away and gets a lesser rpm.

Doubt it, Evey core I recovered had impressions from the rifling through the jacket.
Then there is the thrust on the core under acceleration.
If it was a fact nothing would ever be very accurate!

N.

[Canuck Bob]

It is interesting that folks find the unique nature of each firearm even with twist rate. The 444 MG 38" twist can shoot the 265 grain FTX Hornady gummy tip (a long bullet) and then the next one won't handle it.

In Stanton's and Fryxel's articles on the 444 they plot performance against increasing cast bullet weight (therefore bullet length). With full power loads the 444 seems likely to handle at least a 325 grain bullet with a 38" twist. One of them reports a bit on the 44 Mag in a 38" twist rifle. I'll try and track it down. One reports the Greenhill formula is way off with these blocky large cylinder bullets.

The OP reports poor accuracy with 240 grain factory ammo and 200 grain cast. The rifle should shoot this stuff just fine. I feel something else is going on. Anyone have chrony data on 44 mag factory ammo in a rifle?

For what little it is worth my 444 used to shoot mid-range power 265 Hornady FN just fine. At least until I missed my only bragging buck shooting this rabbit load, actually a prairie chicken load, at him!!! I stopped loading my hunting bullet in anything other than hunting rounds after that. That instant of stupidity still hurts.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

With heavier bullets, it seems hit or miss as to how they shoot in the slower twists.

I've always thought it strange how that works - you'd think there would be more consistency, but maybe different brands of bullets have slightly different centers of gravity or ogive shapes that make a difference, or maybe some "1:16" twist barrels are really 1:15 or 1:17. I also wonder (more with super-fast velocities and long bullets) how often the jacket gets the high-rpm's, but the lead core shears away and gets a lesser rpm.

There in lies the problem. There are just too many other variables to say one twist rate is better than another. About all you can do is look for trends or patterns. My experience is 25 years with these pistol cal leverguns. The 1 in 38" 44 mag's and the 45 LC's with mid to heavy bullets don't seem to do as well as the faster rates like the 1 in 28" or 1 in 30". They can be made to shoot with something but the 1 in 28" or 1 in 30"s tend to cover more bullet and velocity options.
Seems to hold true for the Muzzleloader crowd too. Seems the preferred 45 cal conical twist is the 1 in 28" or 1 in 30" guns.

[6pt-sika]

I've owned an over abundance of Marlin 444's with 1-38 barrels and I got them ALL to handle cast up to 375 grains .

I've also owned a pair of circa 1967 Marlin 336-44 rifles that have the 1-38 barrel , a 1894CB 24" and a 1894P 16 1/2" all of course chambered for 44 MAG .

In the pair of 1967 336-44 guns I have gotten them BOTH to shoot at 100 yards well with 300 grain cast . One of them even did well enough at 100 yards with 325 grain cast although that load was just starting to yaw at 100 yards .
In the 1894CB 24" I had I shot some very nice groups at 100 yards using several cast bullets in the 240-280 grain range .
In the 1894P I tried the Lyman 429244 (only cast bullet I tried) and it did nicely as well at 100 yards .

By no means do I want to argue with anyone or start an argument , but with that being said I truly believe I can make most any Marlin 44 MAG shoot with cast provided the crowns okay and the bores not terribly pitted . Or either I've been VERY VERY lucky to get four GEMS and it just so happens those are the only Marlin 44 MAG's I've ever owned .

[6pt-sika]

Exactly, The .44 Mag. and the .444 Marlin were designed around the 240 gr. bullet and people try to make it into something it was not intended to be.

Taking either of those rounds and going heavier is no different then taking a 300 Win Mag and running 200-220 grain bullets . The 300 Win Mag is at it's best with 165-180 grainers . Same as the 270 WIN optimum for it is a 130 grainer yet the factory loads 140 and 150 .

So if that's okay in those cartridges I see no difference in taking a 444 with 1-38 and running the bullet weight up a good bit . And with that being said lets not even get into the Marlin 444 with the Ballard 1-20 rifled barrels . I've gone as high as 450 grains in that one with acceptable hunting accuracy at 100 yards .

Nopw with all that being said I've kinda gone a little off kilter so to speak .

With jacketed bottle neck cartridges I like to keep everything by my standards ,

24 cal 95 grain
25 cal 115 grain
26 cal 130 grain
27 cal 130 grain
28 cal 140 (150 grain for the Mags)
30 cal 150 (165 for the Mags)
338 cal 225 grain
375 cal 260 grain
416 cal 350 grain

Those are all jacketed cartridges in bolt actions or single shots .

In the cast bullet thing I tend to wanna go heavy weight more often the not ,

44 MAG 240 , 265 , 280 and 300 grains

444 1-38 anything from 200 grains up to 375 grains although my preference are 265 , 325 and 375

444 1-20 anything from 390 up to 450 grains with preference going to 400 grainers

With fast cartridges I seem to prefer lighter bullets pushed fast and with straight neck lead cartridges I like heavy lead that's pushed stoutly . Might not work for anyone else but it does for me so be it !

45-70 anything from 300-550 grains and again my preference have been a 350 and 465 grain bullet

[AJMD429]

One reports the Greenhill formula is way off with these blocky large cylinder bullets.

You may be thinking of the 'Dell Formula'...

I posted on it a ways back - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54626#p656602

Look for the section titled "Twist Rate and Blackpowder Cartridges"