The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
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- 7.62 Precision
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The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
The oil straight from Hades . . . . dipped out of the rivers Phlegethon and Styx and mixed with fire and brimstone and the urine of Cerberus by Hades himself somehow made its way into my hands. Quite literally, actually, into one of my hands.
So I got busy today and forgot to call and figure this stuff out. In the mean time, this stuff has not made me happy.
As everyone knows, the stuff entered a tiny cut and burned my fingers internally for a couple days. There is only one small spot left that is still hurting , and only intermittently, but everywhere effected is still sore and stiff and slightly discolored under the skin.
So the reason I was using the stuff was because I had done a fake case coloring to a shotgun. This one was really a pain in the neck. The metal was different than I was used to and it took a lot of painstaking work to get even close to the effect I was looking for, and even so, I did not really get the patterns I wanted, but it worked out ok in the end. It took maybe four hours, though, for something that should have taken 30 minutes - it was a lot of work. When I was done, it was dry, of course, and it needs to be saturated with oil and left for the colors to set. I used this oil. I wish I had not.
So today I went to assemble the shotgun. I was horrified. The thing had turned almost black, though internal areas that were not polished and had been left in the white had turned gold. (Not real gold, I could have handled that, but a gold color.) I had left Polished areas that had been left silver turned anything from goldish to brown to almost black. Anything with any color had turned very dark. The patterns were almost indistinguishable.
To say I was frustrated would be the understatement of the year.
So I wiped off the oil (wearing gloves ) and you know how you can wipe off heavy oil and there is a film left? Not with this stuff - it wiped off dry and all that was left was a layer of fine surface rust under the oil. A few areas were very slightly pitted, so slightly that it would be similar to the etching that some techniques use for a french grey, not really something that could be felt, and requires very close examination to see. This did not bother me, but the colors being darkened and all the work wasted sure did.
By the time I got all the oil off, my wife was back with a new bottle of CLP and I began oiling the metal with CLP. The rag came away black. I did not get any color of with the other oil, except for a little rust color, but The CLP took something black out of the surface of the metal, with a greenish tint. A lot of rubbing with CLP brought the patterns out again, but the colors remained muted - the brighter blues and reds and yellows remained dull. The patterns are not as pronounced as they were originally. Also, some internal areas had enough surface rust that they remained rust colored.
So what is this stuff and what caused all this weird stuff? Is it really the urine of Cerberus? Did it react with residual chemicals? The only chemical that I used that had an acid was bluing remover, but it was cleaned with solvent, water, and alcohol afterward. The cold blue has ingredients that can form acid in contact with water, from what I understand. So maybe there were some residual chemicals it reacted with, or maybe it is something in the oil itself, I don't know. I have just never used anything that reacted this way.
I remember this stuff really stinging in a scratch when I used it years ago.
Unexpected results is why I am always slow to change lubricants and never really jump on the coolest new lube bandwagon until I see the results others are getting, and even then I like to stick with the older stuff.
I'll post photos maybe tomorrow.
So I got busy today and forgot to call and figure this stuff out. In the mean time, this stuff has not made me happy.
As everyone knows, the stuff entered a tiny cut and burned my fingers internally for a couple days. There is only one small spot left that is still hurting , and only intermittently, but everywhere effected is still sore and stiff and slightly discolored under the skin.
So the reason I was using the stuff was because I had done a fake case coloring to a shotgun. This one was really a pain in the neck. The metal was different than I was used to and it took a lot of painstaking work to get even close to the effect I was looking for, and even so, I did not really get the patterns I wanted, but it worked out ok in the end. It took maybe four hours, though, for something that should have taken 30 minutes - it was a lot of work. When I was done, it was dry, of course, and it needs to be saturated with oil and left for the colors to set. I used this oil. I wish I had not.
So today I went to assemble the shotgun. I was horrified. The thing had turned almost black, though internal areas that were not polished and had been left in the white had turned gold. (Not real gold, I could have handled that, but a gold color.) I had left Polished areas that had been left silver turned anything from goldish to brown to almost black. Anything with any color had turned very dark. The patterns were almost indistinguishable.
To say I was frustrated would be the understatement of the year.
So I wiped off the oil (wearing gloves ) and you know how you can wipe off heavy oil and there is a film left? Not with this stuff - it wiped off dry and all that was left was a layer of fine surface rust under the oil. A few areas were very slightly pitted, so slightly that it would be similar to the etching that some techniques use for a french grey, not really something that could be felt, and requires very close examination to see. This did not bother me, but the colors being darkened and all the work wasted sure did.
By the time I got all the oil off, my wife was back with a new bottle of CLP and I began oiling the metal with CLP. The rag came away black. I did not get any color of with the other oil, except for a little rust color, but The CLP took something black out of the surface of the metal, with a greenish tint. A lot of rubbing with CLP brought the patterns out again, but the colors remained muted - the brighter blues and reds and yellows remained dull. The patterns are not as pronounced as they were originally. Also, some internal areas had enough surface rust that they remained rust colored.
So what is this stuff and what caused all this weird stuff? Is it really the urine of Cerberus? Did it react with residual chemicals? The only chemical that I used that had an acid was bluing remover, but it was cleaned with solvent, water, and alcohol afterward. The cold blue has ingredients that can form acid in contact with water, from what I understand. So maybe there were some residual chemicals it reacted with, or maybe it is something in the oil itself, I don't know. I have just never used anything that reacted this way.
I remember this stuff really stinging in a scratch when I used it years ago.
Unexpected results is why I am always slow to change lubricants and never really jump on the coolest new lube bandwagon until I see the results others are getting, and even then I like to stick with the older stuff.
I'll post photos maybe tomorrow.
Last edited by 7.62 Precision on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- 7.62 Precision
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
So here are some photos to illustrate the oil issue on the shotgun.
Are we allowed to talk about shotguns on a leverguns forum? I'm hoping so:
I did the fake case colors on the shotgun. The metal was not what I was used to, and I did not get the results I hoped for, but after much time, it was passable:
Once I left the mystery demon oil on it, though, it worked some dark voodoo on the finish. This is after some cleaning:
Once I applied CLP and it had a chance to work for a while, I started getting black/greenish stuff out of the surface:
After a lot of work with the CLP it was better, but the brilliance of the colors was gone. This was OK with me, since the colors were a little off on this metal, but if it had been another firearm that took the finish better, I would have been very frustrated:
Are we allowed to talk about shotguns on a leverguns forum? I'm hoping so:
I did the fake case colors on the shotgun. The metal was not what I was used to, and I did not get the results I hoped for, but after much time, it was passable:
Once I left the mystery demon oil on it, though, it worked some dark voodoo on the finish. This is after some cleaning:
Once I applied CLP and it had a chance to work for a while, I started getting black/greenish stuff out of the surface:
After a lot of work with the CLP it was better, but the brilliance of the colors was gone. This was OK with me, since the colors were a little off on this metal, but if it had been another firearm that took the finish better, I would have been very frustrated:
Last edited by 7.62 Precision on Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
7.62' as this stuff "bit" you years ago, and the second time it "got" you was so severe, I think maybe you have developed a bad allergy to this stuff. I suggest you not work the rest of the year, but hunt and fish three times a day with moderate bourbon intake at night...
Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
guess? sulfuric or phosphoric acid (an oxidizer) doped with arsenic - seriously
you can tolerate a bit of that - they used it for medicine for awhile
octogon's prescription sound about right
you can tolerate a bit of that - they used it for medicine for awhile
octogon's prescription sound about right
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
+2!octagon wrote:7.62' as this stuff "bit" you years ago, and the second time it "got" you was so severe, I think maybe you have developed a bad allergy to this stuff. I suggest you not work the rest of the year, but hunt and fish three times a day with moderate bourbon intake at night...
Slow to change lubricants!!!? I still hunt up that grease that was in the little finger-tip sized tub that came in the kit for the Garand! Slather it on, work the action a few times and wipe off the excess... I should really remember the FSN for that stuff!
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
But you don't like WD-40??
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- 7.62 Precision
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
I like WD-40, and Kroil, and other penetrating oils, too. And I've known lots of people who use it on guns - I have myself. If you keep it out of the bore and chamber (when shooting), and off of the wood, you are OK. I just think there are better oils for firearms. There are plenty of worse oils, too. There are a lot of fancy gun lubes out there that water lifts right off the metal.BlaineG wrote: But you don't like WD-40??
It's kind of like red oil. It's meant to go in your transmission, but you can put it in your engine if you like, and your engine won't seize. But I use motor oil. It's not a big deal, you probably wouldn't notice a difference for the first 90,000 miles.
Or rock drill oil. Rock drill oil is designed specifically for lubricating drill hammers, but the Japanese had a cool idea - they built a hammer that lubed itself with its own hydraulic oil, so you don't need rock drill oil.
Except the hammer turns its lube into tiny particles and blows them out into the air you are breathing. Rock drill oil is designed to be safe to breath, and smells like paraffin. I hate hydraulic oil, I hate it on my hands, I hate it on my clothes, and I sure don't want to breath it.
I don't like Frog Lube, either, and everyone goes starry-eyed about that stuff, but I have seen it do weird things when exposed to other solvents. Don't trust Rem-Oil - I have seen completely different results from different aerosol cans. Seems to work OK from bottles.
Of course, all the above advice is coming from the guy who used a totally unknown oil and burned his hand, so you might want to take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
I'm using a lot of Rem Oil these days, but not enough to notice inconsistency. I have used Kroil when breaking in a new barrel. Have used CLP with satisfaction; Ballistol, too. I'd give my little LCP the Eezox treatment if I had any more on hand.
I don't have a lot of use for WD-40 these days. Fine for displacing water, but it's no protectant.
I don't have a lot of use for WD-40 these days. Fine for displacing water, but it's no protectant.
Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
Kroil is The Berries for loosening stuff, and rust removal....but, if I get it on my fingers, I can taste it in my mouth a few seconds later....
I've been giving this stuff a go for a couple years, too....I can't find any problems with it, and by all accounts heads and tails over the WD, or anything else.....I have no idea how it runs at zero degrees....I just use it for surface protection, under butt plates, etc...They have spray, grease, and liquid....
http://www.fluid-film.com/testimonials.html
I've been giving this stuff a go for a couple years, too....I can't find any problems with it, and by all accounts heads and tails over the WD, or anything else.....I have no idea how it runs at zero degrees....I just use it for surface protection, under butt plates, etc...They have spray, grease, and liquid....
http://www.fluid-film.com/testimonials.html
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
We had problems with the finish Remington puts on their Express shotguns and the same finish applied to rifles. We kept getting beads of rust popping thru the finish on the barrel and on the threads where a M700 barrel screwed into the receiver. Tried Rem Oil no luck it still rusted, LSA no good, even tried WD-40 as a last resort knowing it's not an oil. What we did find that stopped it dead was Balistol. I then saw on a video done by Hickock 45 where he uses it for cleaning his Glocks. I've now started using it as my go to for cleaning and oiling.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
You gotem plenty Bear Grease up in Great White North. Why use nasty stuff made from nasty stuff?
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- 7.62 Precision
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
Here's how it works at zero degrees:BlaineG wrote:I have no idea how it runs at zero degrees....I just use it for surface protection, under butt plates, etc...They have spray, grease, and liquid...http://www.fluid-film.com/testimonials.html
'Cause he shot all the meat he needed before it got too cold.
Generally, it is more important that it work well in these conditions:
If it works good when it is 38 degrees and pouring rain, with salt scud spraying over the bow, then you can always use something else or even run dry the few times you need to shoot something at below zero temps.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
Photos added in second post.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . .
Up here, we don't hunt or fish three times a day. We hunt or fish ALL day, or even all week.octagon wrote:7.62' as this stuff "bit" you years ago, and the second time it "got" you was so severe, I think maybe you have developed a bad allergy to this stuff. I suggest you not work the rest of the year, but hunt and fish three times a day with moderate bourbon intake at night...
I don't drink, but I did stop by Maker's Mark bourbon distillery once to see Frank James' revolver.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
I sent an email to the manufacturer (keep in mind that I have know idea about the origins of that oil prior to when I had it in my hands [and later in my hand], so all I have to go on is a laser-printed label which might or might not be correct) with photos of the bottle.
I explained my injury, where I got the oil, and the entire process that was involved with that shotgun, and all products used, in case the oil was only an activator of or vehicle for some other chemical that was residual on the shotgun.
Also, I added photos of the effect on the shogun finish in the second post in this thread.
I explained my injury, where I got the oil, and the entire process that was involved with that shotgun, and all products used, in case the oil was only an activator of or vehicle for some other chemical that was residual on the shotgun.
Also, I added photos of the effect on the shogun finish in the second post in this thread.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
It would be worth sending a sample to the University of Alaska and have an analysis done using their mass spec machine. Cost a bit of money, likely under 500, but your well being is worth a lot more.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
I used to brag about washing off the grease with gasoline and blow away brake dust with an air hose when I wrenched. Then there was the oilpatch years. Today I wrestle with bone marrow cancer. I'm a little more careful what chemicals I use and wear gloves, unless I forget which is more often than it should be.
Gloves and a mask should be standard gear when mixing and spraying dandelions! Apparently I would rather not look like a geek, sad statement.
Sorry to hear about the reaction to your hand. I had one once from building a cedar strip canoe with epoxy. I walk by the stuff on a shelf and my hands itch to this day, kicked myself for awhile but accidents happen. There is no real easy way to avoid some toxic products in a gun room. We learn from each other, thanks for this thread.
This thread has convinced me to take a long look at toxins in my gun room. I think Ballistol will be my gun oil. Considering Ed's Red for my solvent? Research is in order!
Gloves and a mask should be standard gear when mixing and spraying dandelions! Apparently I would rather not look like a geek, sad statement.
Sorry to hear about the reaction to your hand. I had one once from building a cedar strip canoe with epoxy. I walk by the stuff on a shelf and my hands itch to this day, kicked myself for awhile but accidents happen. There is no real easy way to avoid some toxic products in a gun room. We learn from each other, thanks for this thread.
This thread has convinced me to take a long look at toxins in my gun room. I think Ballistol will be my gun oil. Considering Ed's Red for my solvent? Research is in order!
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
First mistake, you tried to fake CCH, you need to do it the sage and proper way, with steel at 1600 deg F
Kidding aside, first I would get the MSDS, everything has one, find out what is in that stuff.
A lot of folks try and imitate CCH with Cold Bluing compounds, or Tincture of Benzene, and heat, not sure what you used.
Most cold blues have very nasty stuff in them: selenous acid which is highly toxic and Copper Sulfate. I don’t use any cold bluing compounds in my shop, just too nasty.
Heating it up with an exposed flame will then change the chemical composition…to who knows what. Some folks a while back found out the hard way that brake cleaner and welding don't mix, formed a very toxic mixture.
It might also be a chemical reaction between two compounds.
Mike
Kidding aside, first I would get the MSDS, everything has one, find out what is in that stuff.
A lot of folks try and imitate CCH with Cold Bluing compounds, or Tincture of Benzene, and heat, not sure what you used.
Most cold blues have very nasty stuff in them: selenous acid which is highly toxic and Copper Sulfate. I don’t use any cold bluing compounds in my shop, just too nasty.
Heating it up with an exposed flame will then change the chemical composition…to who knows what. Some folks a while back found out the hard way that brake cleaner and welding don't mix, formed a very toxic mixture.
It might also be a chemical reaction between two compounds.
Mike
Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
That's why you shouldn't use Chlorinated brake/carb cleaners if you are going to weld. If there is any residue you will create Phosgene gas......and death is for a long time.Mike Hunter wrote: Heating it up with an exposed flame will then change the chemical composition…to who knows what. Some folks a while back found out the hard way that brake cleaner and welding don't mix, formed a very toxic mixture.
It might also be a chemical reaction between two compounds.
Mike
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
Faux case hardening still came out nice... Even if it required a blood sacrifice to achieve.
...Proud owner of the 11.43×23mm automatic using depleted Thorium rounds.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
I agree on the fake case color, I figured out a way to make it look pretty good, but most people use a lot of poor techniques, and a lot of heat. Since the real surface coloring was the byproduct of a pretty good hardening process, and most of the stuff people are trying to fake color is made from metals that were specifically chosen and tempered for the purpose, I worry about what happens to receivers when people heat them up unevenly with a torch. Plus, their results are ugly. I don't use any heat.Mike Hunter wrote:First mistake, you tried to fake CCH, you need to do it the sage and proper way, with steel at 1600 deg F
Kidding aside, first I would get the MSDS, everything has one, find out what is in that stuff.
A lot of folks try and imitate CCH with Cold Bluing compounds, or Tincture of Benzene, and heat, not sure what you used.
Heating it up with an exposed flame will then change the chemical composition…to who knows what. Some folks a while back found out the hard way that brake cleaner and welding don't mix, formed a very toxic mixture.
It might also be a chemical reaction between two compounds.
I have several firearms that need CCH, just waiting to have the extra cash so I can send them out to someone who does it. You wouldn't know anyone who does? I have a 26" half-octagon 1893 Marlin takedown I want to have done as part of a restoration. It is for my wife. I bought it for nothing in an auction - it was listed as a "Special Smokeless Rifle" and I have no idea how I stumbled onto the auction, but the auction had only thirty-some views.
I am guessing a chemical reaction, probably. It changed the surface of the metal, changing the color and etching it slightly. It must have reacted somehow with residual chemicals, or perhaps something used in the Chinese steel.
I just got the MSDS sheet from Bushnell, it turns out it was one of their products that was supplied to the military for only a very short time before it was discontinued, years ago. They supplied it in large containers, and the Army then put it in smaller ones like the bottles I have. So there are still unknowns, even with the MSDS info - did someone else add something before I got it? Was the right stuff put in the jar, or was something else mistakenly put in the jar?
Bushnell offered to send me a quantity of their current Hoppe's lubes for free, but I declined, as I was not trying to get anything from them but info.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
I hate brake and carb cleaners and try to avoid them at all costs. If I do find a need to use a bake cleaner on a firearm, which is almost never, I wear a breather and eye protection, of course. If i'm on a job and someone is using it to clean parts or something, I just clear out a ways.jdad wrote:That's why you shouldn't use Chlorinated brake/carb cleaners if you are going to weld. If there is any residue you will create Phosgene gas......and death is for a long time.
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
For real CCH you may want to try this guy, I hear he’s pretty good: http://www.mikehunterrestorations.com/
Now that the shameless plug is done, what compounds are listed on the MSDS?
And what did Hoppes have to say, besides offering a free sample? Most of these companies have a toxicologist on staff, for a large chemical MFG Co, I suspect that they have a toxicology department, I would call them back and ask to speak with a toxicologist.
Something else to consider is a contaminant in the Chinese grease, I’ve run across some that really stunk, didn’t smell like any grease I know.
My guess is that if you used a cold blue, it’s very likely the culprit.
v/r
mike
Now that the shameless plug is done, what compounds are listed on the MSDS?
And what did Hoppes have to say, besides offering a free sample? Most of these companies have a toxicologist on staff, for a large chemical MFG Co, I suspect that they have a toxicology department, I would call them back and ask to speak with a toxicologist.
Something else to consider is a contaminant in the Chinese grease, I’ve run across some that really stunk, didn’t smell like any grease I know.
My guess is that if you used a cold blue, it’s very likely the culprit.
v/r
mike
Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
Griff... you mean lubriplate. Still sold in auto stores.
- 7.62 Precision
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
Have not even looked at the MSDS sheet yet. Got a text from our landlord this evening (business and home are on the same property, and we were sort of temporarily renting) and we basically need to be moved out in three days so they can move in.
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Front Line Holsters • http://www.7-62precision.com • Custom Finishes • http://www.762precision.wordpress.com
Front Line Holsters • http://www.7-62precision.com • Custom Finishes • http://www.762precision.wordpress.com
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Re: The oil straight from Hades . . . update with photos
Ouch. Been there... Though not while wintering in Anchorage...7.62 Precision wrote:Have not even looked at the MSDS sheet yet. Got a text from our landlord this evening (business and home are on the same property, and we were sort of temporarily renting) and we basically need to be moved out in three days so they can move in.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!