The AR15 and me....please add on your experieces

[firefuzz]

My life's experience with Eugene Stoner's "Black Rifle" began in mid-summer 1975 at Ft. Jackson, S.C., shortly after entering boot camp. I didn't know what to think about the aluminum and plastic rifle that looked like one of my toys as a kid, and I was not quite swallowing the DI's propaganda about it's destructive capabilities...I grew up shooting Dad's Garand and I didn't see how that 'lil bitty .22 cal cartridge was the end-all in combat rounds. But I soon grew to love that little rifle's accuracy, soft recoil, easy maintenance. 30 rounds without having to reload was petty cool too. Over the next 4 years it and I became comfortable companions.

About 3 days after returning home upon being discharged in 1979 I both applied for my first LEO job and bought a brand-new-in-the-box SP1 AR15 from a local gunshop that was closing it's doors. The owner of the shop, Mr. Turner, had tolerated me every time we came to town since I was about 9 y/o and sold me the rifle at his cost plus tax, a princely sum of $312.00, and threw in a half a grocery sack of mags, ammo and other goodies, including a carry-handle scope mount. (what is this thing for???) I took it home and promptly field stripped and cleaned it and then spent the rest of the evening petting it and getting acquainted. (my wife of about 8 months complained about who/what was getting the most petting that night, she just didn't understand )

The next day I took it out to the home place to sight it in, Dad took one look at it and walked off grumbling something about our country's defense hanging on a plastic rifle, but he did come back and fire a couple of rounds thru it after I adjusted the sights, he wasn't real impressed or at least didn't show it. My first police chief was about same way, a Korean War vet, and an old school, shotgun carrying cop that was afraid of rifles in town. After seeing me shoot a B-27 pistol target in the head consistently at 200yds ( I had good eyesight back then) he consented to let me carry it in the trunk of the patrol car just in case the need for a rifle ever arose, along with strict orders that I was the only one to touch it and that things had better be bad if he saw it in my hands. He never complained on the few occasions it came out of the trunk tho. The only changes I ever made to the rifle was to put round hand-guards on it, a marked improvement over the original triangle-shaped ones. I tried mounting a scope on it and took it back off, too high for a good cheek weld and just didn't feel right. (I later had a scoped 700 Remington Varmint Master in .308 that I carried in a hard case in the trunk if that much precision was needed)

I carried that gun for about the next seven years as a full and part-time LEO, then employed as a deputy sheriff in a one-man car it was again a comfortable companion. One deputy, that was too stupid to wait on back-up most of the time, armed with a revolver wasn't too intimidating to the biker gangs that were traveling thru all the time back then, but the sight and sound of that AR being locked and loaded, or a shotgun at night, seemed to have a different effect on them. All I know is they never argued about ceasing any hostile actions and waiting until enough people showed up to handle the situation. The only warning shot I ever fired in my life was with that gun....straight up in the air, standing in the parking lot of a pretty rough rural tavern where about 10 or so bikers had decided to try on the local red necks for size. The effect was truly amazing. I really don't know who was winning the tussle but I do know that none of them had any problem with my suggestion that they all lie down and rest for a spell until some more deputies and the highway patrol could get there to help me sort it all out. Me and my rifle was leaned up against the front of my patrol car when the cavalry arrived...kinda like a shepherd watching his flock. The under sheriff was in the process of taking about 10 pounds off my butt for the shot , until the bar owner stepped between us and told him that firing that shot probably saved a few lives.

Then Colt came out with the A2 and I made one of the biggest mistakes of my life....I traded my trusty companion in on one. Oh, me and the new rifle got along fine, I loved the heavier barrel (to be fair, I wasn't humping it for miles either) and the A2 sights and it was deadly accurate, more accurate than my SP1, even using the old 55gr FMJ ( the new 62gr stuff wasn't available thru my USAFR NCOIC range master buddy). But I sure wish I'd never have let go of my original SP1. That A2 was the most accurate rifle with irons I've ever owned. I made some shots on moving dogs and coyotes and long range still targets that would sound so much like bragging or lies that I won't even tell them. Some of them were even witnessed.

I kept and shot that rifle, even used it on prairie dogs a time or two, until my first divorce in '95 when I had to part with it and all my other guns 'cept one pistol. The first guns I bought after I got back on my feet were another A2 and an 870. That one's in someone else's hands now too, but I've never been without an AR since. There are several M4orgery's in my safe and all my adult children have one in their homes. As much as I love the guns I grew up with, levers and pumps, the AR is my go-to gun when a rifle is called for at times when the bad guys are walking and the Reaper may be close. To me my AR is like a well broke-in pair of boots.....it fits, it's comfortable, and I don't have to look at it to put it on and make it work.

Right now I'm in the process of building my first AR pistol in .300 Blackout. I have another new, stripped lower in the safe for some future project too, I just haven't decided what it's going to be yet. (maybe a retro SP1 clone)

Rob

[AJMD429]

Great stories, and thanks for posting.

We're probably about the same age, and although I began shooting a 22 rifle around age 5 or 6, and had a Ruger 10/22, Mark-I 22 LR pistol, 44 Mag Super Blackhawk, Ruger M77 in 6mm, and Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag by high school graduation, then over the next couple decades added many semiauto centerfire rifles like Mini-14's, Garands, and so on as I 'traded up'. . . the first AR-15 I ever owned or shot was actually after the Sept 11 2001 attack, and I bought a Colt 'Target Sporter' just 'because'.

When I examined it, I had to laugh, because the trigger wasn't exactly a 'target' trigger, as compared to my other rifles, and the barrel was the hourglass-shaped 'military' type (I guess so it allows the M203 grenade launcher to be attached). So I guess what made it a "Target Sporter" was the fact that the bayonet-lug was milled off... At the time, I had an SKS, and it shot well-enough, plus had the spear-type bayonet on it that wasn't detachable, and I found it NICE, because our normal target-shooting area was swampy, and unless you took a tarp to put down, you really didn't want to set a gun down (even an SKS), so with the bayonet, you could just poke it in the ground, then go change your targets.

Anyway, I did appreciate the machining and design, and the Colt Target Sporter was pretty accurate, utterly reliable, and I started getting alternative uppers and such from Bushmaster. I got lowers as well, once I realized that the front pin size was different. Now I tend to use that lower for setups where I don't plan to swap uppers.

I've not seen much difference in quality between the Colt, DPMS, CMMG, and Bushmaster receivers, and bought many 'off-brand' parts with no failures, but of course I'm a 'hobby' shooter and not jumping around in muck and battle conditions and firing thousands of rounds. I do understand that in terms of the lowers, that for a couple decades, only five or six manufacturers made ALL the lowers used by the various gun companies, which might explain the lack of differences.

Here's the way I currently keep my AR receivers set up most of the time; a 'target' version of the 223 with a bull-barrel, a 'protection' version set up to not be deafening if fired without hearing protection, and a 300 Blk 'pistol' version (I drilled a hole in the registered 'handgun' lower which mates with a pin I installed in the pistol-length upper, so that upper cannot inadvertently be put on a shoulder-stocked lower). The 300 Blk has a Law Tactical folding stock adapter.



I've set up AR uppers in all of these chamberings:

AR-15 Options Covering the Bases.jpg

(Image from AmmoGuide.com - a site I highly recommend for reloading data and cartridge comparisons)

The 338 Lapua is a Zel single-shot upper.

[Streetstar]

17 year old new recruit in the Army fresh out of high school in 1989. In hindsight, i would have gone the college ROTC route, sometimes enlisted guys pooh-pooh the officers, - but now working as an insurance adjuster for USAA, i see the doors that get opened for many after their tour is through ------- , but at the time, i didnt want to burden my parents with paying for college, and i didnt want to start my life 40k in debt or more by borrowing my way through college, -- so i joined the Army young

I grew up rural, but dad only had a 20 gauge Winchester model 50 and a .22 pistol when i was growing up. He liked hunting, but wasnt into the firearm aspect of it --- when we went deer hunting most years, he just borrowed a gun from my uncle, and i carried the 20 gauge loaded with slugs , or used my bow

So basically at that time, i did not have a deep well of prior firearms experience to draw from, but i was well versed in the basics.

I used several AR/M16 variants in the service. When i got out , i didnt have much use for firearms anymore. I figured i had shot them enough to last a long time, plus i had my bow for hunting season

fast forward a couple more years and some co-workers were chatting about their low buck SKS's and things like that they were having fun with at the local rock pit/range --so i tagged along one day and had some fun getting some trigger time in. The next deer season, i borrowed a buddies SKS for opening day --(following my dad's path of hjust borrowing a rifle when i needed it ) -- and quickly realized what a hunk of stuff it is for my uses. Fun at the rock pit, but for a day of stalk hunting, it was heavy, felt like a club and had a silly little fold down bayonet that was of no use

-- So that experience out of the way, - the following Monday i procured a stripped lower and ordered a build kit through the back of Shotgun News (Model 1 Sales i believe ) - and by the next weekend i had my new "huntin' rifle" - one i was thoroughly familiar with and was lightweight, - and felt like home for me --- IT was a stubby CAR-15 lookalike with a long flash hider. -- I remember they shipped it to me COD too - thats something you dont see much of anymore
Anyway --- i had my rifle and a couple boxes of 69 grain soft point ammo, and i was ready to rock

Thats pretty much it --- that was my single do-it-all rifle for 10 years . Somewhere along the way, i procured a 300 Weatherby bolt rifle for bigger stuff , but its rarely used, and a 357 for home defense, and i was set -- to this day i probably dont need much else either

The thing i most remember about that first AR is not the AR at all though --- during that time period , i felt like i was pretty flush financially , so when i bought my AR, i also bought Dad a Winchester '94 Ranger 30/30 -- i didnt know much about 'em and all the lever guns looked the same to me, so i didnt realize the Ranger was a bottom of the range model, -- but Dad loved it !
He finally had a rifle of his own without having to borrow one! (he had a great career in aviation, i have no idea why he didnt just get himself one long ago- but who knows)
He didnt shoot much, but when he did he was surprisingly handy with it.

When he passed away a few years ago, i inherited the rifle back without much fuss from his second wife , -- and thus i became a levergunner myself. Shooting dad's gun was important to me, ---

Since then i have owned all kinds of Marlins and Winchesters and even a Henry .22 --- I have a few in rotation still, but the only constants are dad's 30/30, a 45/70 guide Gun i procured (which is my favorite) , and the little Henry. The rest ebb and flow as i see fit,

I even sidetracked into building AR's for a while and had a few of the darn things --- but i have to admit, now i get bored with them rather easilly. LAst time my buddy and i were out shooting, i was zeroing a handful of rifles, --- and after a few shots at the 25 to make sure it was on paper and another 3 or 4 shots at 100 to verify the adjustments, -- the AR's went back in the case --- i wont say its because my service grade carbines are stunningly accurate - they're not -- but time after time, i always know what they are going to give me


So my tale of AR-15 stuff is not just about AR's --- its how i grew up, and transitioned from being 90% a bowhunter , to enjoying hunting with a rifle and ow i enjoy shooting quite a bit , and ultimately transitioning into a levergunner --- although the only things i have shot recently have been lever guns, single actions, and my newly aquired M1A - for a semi-auto, that thing is a hoot too

The AR-15's were my "gateway drug" of sorts and now i play with the big boy toys quite a bit too

My newish 6920, and my "retro" rifle built with a 604 M-16 upper are also in the Never Sell stack in the back of the gun cabinet now too --- they are good guns and i would not hesitate using either for hunting game under 250 pounds with the right ammo ---- but that said, i probably wouldnt recommend them as a primary hunting rifle to too many people though -- i see far too many newcomers to the sport using AR variants that should probably be using something a tad bigger --- the little soft points can sometimes zip right through and leave no blood trail, - so you have to rely on some old school tracking to find your game in heavy brush , - even with lethal hits


pic of my 604 --- not the prettiest mare in the barn, but it works good

[MrMurphy]

Grew up shooting Mausers and Lee-Enfields and similar. After Vietnam, my dad was no longer much of a shooter, except revolvers occasionally.

Ironically, I did not own my own AR until 2009.

I first shot one in about 1990. Tons of friends with .mil, .gov or LE jobs, as well as other shooters, so I shot a ton of rounds through them. First qualified on an M16 in 1996 for ROTC at Knox. Carried one on and off for a few years in various places, usually courtesy of friends.

2005-2008, carried one every day on duty, typically an M4, sometimes with an M203, whenever we didn't need a machine gunner. Coming back from overseas, during the first Obamascare, I went into the gun business on the manufacturing side, talking to my old buddies about what they needed. I picked up a S&W, because at the time there were few choices available with the buying rush. I have a couple more hanging around now, and have a patrol rifle on duty.

I've had an AR of some type around for going on 20 years, and I'm comfortable with them. More than a lever action (I didn't buy my first lever gun till 2002). I'll always have one around.


Kind of funny, qualifying in Basic for the USAF, we had a bunch of retired CATM instructors assisting the sergeants. I shot my first zero group, in a tiny little group. My mechanical zero on an M16 is typically two clicks left and one click up or down, so it wasn't far off a perfect group dead on the bullseye.

The old CATM guy looks at me. "Shot one of these before?" Trying to not stand out, I said yes I had. He's like "how many rounds? Shot a couple through a buddy's back home?"

No one was near us, so I very quietly said "Sir, about 25,000 rounds in the last ten years". He eyeballed me (I was also an "old" guy at 27) and just went uh huh. Next group, another tiny group just about perfect on the bullseye after adjusting the sight except one round.

He goes around checking targets issuing correction orders, looks at me and I said "pulled one flier". He looks, says ok no correction. All my flight-mates were like "Why was he asking you, not TELLING you?" Old CATM guy looks back and said "Because he knows what he's doing..."

My boss from my last job (at a gunshop there in San Antonio), a 24 year retired CATM Msgt, had just returned to work there, and he knew I was going through BMT. I guess word got around, because when we shot in tech school, they left me alone and let me shoot and get it over with using minimal fuss.

[vancelw]

I carried a Colt AR15 like the one Streetstar shows for 4 months in 83. I too, wondered about the plastic, rattling thing... especially after we banged them around doing drill, stack arms, PT, you name it. Then...the first time I walked out on the range at Pendleton, I thought, "How do I tell which target is mine?" I thought I knew guns, but most of my experience was with rimfire and shotguns. Old, everyday, cheap guns. I had very little experience with center-fire guns at that time. Qualified expert and have been a believer ever since.Always wanted my own. I was offered one in 85 with 2000 rounds of ammo for $500....might has well been $5000 That was two months rent.

Finally got a Rock River M4gery around 06-07. Impressively accurate, especially for a carbine. Still have it.
A few months ago I traded into an AR in 6.5 Grendel. My plan is to use it for coyote hunting. I've used my deer rifle and a single-shot .243 forever, but calling at night tends to bring in multiple, fast-moving targets. The Spike's tactical "Punisher" lower had a 6-position collapsible stock and a single stage trigger. I sold it and used the money to buy a Rock River lower with 2-stage trigger, A2 style fixed stock, ambi-safety, and winter trigger guard. I'm really liking her now.

[sore shoulder]

I owned and shot several AR's long before going in the military ( I went in late) so by the time I got to boot camp I already knew how to operate one, which didn't hurt at all and I ended up training the soldiers who were having trouble after I qualified first time go (that's first time on qual range) even with 3 malfunctions that required clearing the weapon, thanks to magazines that should have been scrapped long before I got em. Anyone who has qualified knows what that means. One malfunction usually means you arent going to qual, much less three, as you run out of time. A lot of soldiers blamed the guns for these problems, but I knew what it was, and borrowed a DI's Gerber to "fix" the feed lips for us and I got all my new charges qualified and the respect of the DI's and fellow recruits, even though I was the "old man" and had to endure constant comments from DI's about needing hip surgery etc, while outrunning 3/4 of the company full of kids and making everyone look silly on the rappel/cargo net towers and confidence courses.( I framed houses for a living before I went in ). I'm still in, current position is squad leader in a light infantry mtn warfare unit and the M4 is my primary work tool. I've seen these rifles endure some pretty severe conditions and I've learned that most of the detractions you read on the internet are pure bs repeated by ppl who, as one poster here noted, prob get to the range about once a year, maybe. There is nothing dirtier than blank ammo that is direct feeding dirty fouled gasses into the bolt since the barrel is plugged to operate with blanks, and I've been constantly amazed when they just keep running. Cleaning later requires a jack hammer to remove the carbon from the bolt and carrier, but I would say it would take thousands of rounds of live ammo to get them as dirty as a few hundred blanks, and they were still running. As a range safety and RSO with my unit for many years now, I have to say that I have seen probably less than 5 malfunctions during live fire that were not mag related. I've had one malfunction that was not mag related, some tiny rocks from the range got in the action during a night fire. I was able to do a quick breakdown and clear it and get it back up without a hitch. Later I found pulverized rock dust in the action/bolt lockup, and it was still functioning. The more I use this firearm the more I respect it, and the more I respect the original design, the 20" rifle. I've learned there is definitely a difference between a $500 shooter and a Colt mil spec rifle, and many rifles claiming to be milspec are not even close, I recall a video here of a full auto AR meltdown and the gun store owner/expert claiming to have a "milspec" stainless barrel. Well, stainless is not "milspec". Chrome lined M249 FN machine gun barrel steel is milspec, which is probably the main reason that barrel melted down, stainless is a horrible choice for a high volume of fire rifle. If the barrel doesn't have FN 5.56 stamped on it, it isnt milspec, I don't care what "profile" it has. However, for the average shooter the $500 kit gun/plinker will suffice, but they should also know it is not a service grade weapon and there are some possible bad consequences if it was ever called upon to be used as one. Of course those $500 plinkers are also responsible for a lot of the rumors of failures. Clint Black stated that he sees a lot of failures with home built parts guns, and almost none ever with a Colt. If I had a choice between a milspec AR and an AK, I would take the AR every time. It's every bit as reliable as an AK, and most of the old hype about it being unreliable can all be traced back to the wrong powder being substituted during Vietnam, and I hope whoever made that decision died a long painful death from colon cancer because he killed a lot of soldiers. There are a lot of different schools of thought on what makes a good combat rifle. There's also a lot of stunts out there supposedly showing how one rifle is as good as another etc etc. I doubt there's many rifles out there that a 17 year old girl in bootcamp thats never fired a gun before can qualify on out to 300m after fairly minimal instruction in a high stress environment. The doctrine behind the 5.56 and the AR is sound, and it's sound enough the commies copied it as far as the round. More rounds, lighter weight, easy to reload, easy to shoot accurately. I once trained some Russian speaking airborne troops using smoke signals and a interpreter and they really liked it and shot it very well. I trained another countries recon guys and they qualified first time. It is a very, very easy gun to operate and shoot effectively. Having learned on an M16A2 at a couple schools before getting to the now standard M4, I have the fortune of being able to compare using them in the same situations and I would prefer the M16A2 over the M4. The few situations where the shorter barrel is more convenient can be overcome, the disadvantage of a shorter barrel is a little harder to overcome. I have a lot of other thoughts but this has gotten quite long in between chores and coffee this morning.

[Old Ironsights]

I grew up a "rural townie" with non-gun parentals.

Didn't keep me from Lettering on the HS Small Bore Team or joining the ANG though. (that should date me)

Still, for my entire time in Service I never got "comfortable" with the Mattel.

Yes, it is accurate. Yes it works. Yes it is a solid Intermediate Battle Rifle.

I just never cared for it - especially after being issued the heavy, non-ergonomic, Tank-can-drive-over-it reliable G3 while attached to the FRG Bundeswher. I'm too Deutch I guess. (When given the choice/chance with the USA, I carried the Pig... and could snipe with it. )

Still, I bought a Bushy M4gery back in 05 or so... and was reminded of all the things I both took for granted and disliked about the platform. So I sold it.

I certainly won't Dis the Armalite PLATFORM per se... but it just never worked for me. I like my Leverguns and HK Rollers. I won't turn down an AR if it is handed to me, but I am unlikely to buy another one.

[slimster]

Neat thread, with nice pictures! My first AR, bought in 1978, was the SP1 Colt with the smooth sided lower and the slow twist barrel with bird cage flash hider. Always wished it had a forward assist on it though. If it had of had that, I would probably still have it! When the A2 came on the market in the early 80's, I decided that I really needed one. It had a forward assist, (teardrop), and the 1/7 twist NATO barrel. About that same time, I was really interested in the CAR styling, too...so the SP1 was traded in on a new Colt CAR Sporter II advertised as the A2 version. Guess what...still has the smooth sided lower and A1 style sights, but it does have the fwd assist, 1/7in. twist pencil barrel, and closed bottom birdcage. I still have that one, though most of my shooting buddies have tried to con me out of it. They can't believe how handy it feels next to their M4geries! I can't think of a much handier bad times, grab n' go gun! That, and a generous supply of 20 and 30 rd. magazines, and I'm good to go. Think I'll keep it awhile!

[sore shoulder]

, Tank-can-drive-over-it reliable G3

Come on keep it real breh.

[Old Ironsights]

, Tank-can-drive-over-it reliable G3

Come on keep it real breh.

Just my experience. I've handled more broken ARs than broken Roller Locks...

[sore shoulder]

, Tank-can-drive-over-it reliable G3

Come on keep it real breh.

Just my experience. I've handled more broken ARs than broken Roller Locks...

Yea yea, I get it, you want to mate with your "G3" (clone). How many have you seen run over by tanks?

[Old Ironsights]

Like I said, I have NO issues with the AR platform as a weapon system. I just don't like it.

It's a redhead/blond/brunette issue.

[MrMurphy]

I'd carry a G3 if it was issued, but I have several friends who can attest that driving over one with a Mercedes G-Wagon, or a Humvee, or an IVECO 1.5 ton will indeed, send it to the Big Armory In the Sky.....

I didn't ask why their guys were so stupid as to keep driving over rifles (in more than one country) after one of my troops ran over an M249......oops.


On the M16 vs M4....I didn't carry the A2 on duty more than once or twice, and in one exercise right before I got out (the "armorer" suddenly claimed he couldn't find my rifle during a mass-issue exercise. It hadn't moved racks in 3 years, he was just an idiot so I got an A2). While deployed, I carried an M4 every day except the last 3 days before shipping home. We were a rear area base supplying the entire AOR, and we didn't bring our own rifles, they issued them there (strange, and we weren't happy, but it was what it was). They had exactly enough to go around, so when new troops rotated in your lost your weapon to them. We ended up sticking around a few more days than expected and in the big handoff showing the new guys what was what, one of the new armorers tried to tell me to go out on patrol with nothing more than an M9.

Considering our patrol zone was the size of most counties, with only two guys in it.....and the other guy with me had an M9 and an M249, I suggested multiple anatomically impossible acts he could attempt on himself (in three different languages, no less).

Sergeant smacked him in the head, I got an A2 issued and was happy enough. Some of the young kids from the incoming troops made fun of "The Musket" i was carrying. I then informed them that I had qualified expert with The Musket when they were four years old, and I could still outshoot them with irons, even with them using optics...

When the flight chief (platoon sergeant) and ops officer (XO, a captain) both verified that yes, i was indeed that good......

They shut up.

[Old Ironsights]

Well, I can't disagree. I will certainly take an M-X if issued to me, but I put my money where my comfort is and went with the HK system.



Yes, it's heavy, but not as heavy as Ms Piggy, and doesn't require a Belt to feed...

And I still shoot sub 18" at 400yds with just the Irons. (The Holo is a recent attempt to be "modern"... I'm not sure if I like it...)

[sore shoulder]

Well, I can't disagree. I will certainly take an M-X if issued to me, but I put my money where my comfort is and went with the HK system.



Yes, it's heavy, but not as heavy as Ms Piggy, and doesn't require a Belt to feed...

And I still shoot sub 18" at 400yds with just the Irons. (The Holo is a recent attempt to be "modern"... I'm not sure if I like it...)

Funny looking AR.

[jeepnik]

A long time ago one tried to get me killed. I haven't forgiven them. Now I do own an AR that was a gift from my boys. It's much improved over the original. Still, push comes to shove I'll take my Scout/Squad every time.

[765x53]

In the last basic training cycle at Ft. Knox to train with the M14, we received one day of familiarization with the M16.
After Armor AIT my personal weapon was a .45 and the on vehicle weapon was the M3 A1 submachine gun.

I haven't touched an AR since, nor cared to.

[Griff]

1970: I had zilch rifle experience, and had only shot one handgun... a nickel plated 45 Colt SAA with 5-½" bbl. Entered boot and was issued a M-1 Garand to parade around with. Went to the qualifying range and qualified expert... I simply listened to what the Gunnersmate said... and tried to put it into practice. After qualifying, 3 of us were invited to the range next door and got some handgun experience... Navy issue 1911s... qualified with that also.

Long story short, ended up on a ship, and as part of the security team, we had M-1s, Thompsons and 1911s... Someone else had the pleasure of handling the BAR. Then the order came to re-arm. Hated having to give up my 1928 in exchange for an M-16.

During my shipboard vacations to SEA, I won an 870 and a mdl 64A Winchester. Also purchased a mdl 94 in .44Mag... and found that you CAN love two entities. Or more!

Fast forward to 2012, and with a 2nd term demonic President and demonic controlled Congress, I decided that my single M-1 needed a lighter, higher capacity neighbor in the safe. Shopped around and came to the conclusion that since my local Wally-World had several still in stock... price point and features found me choosing the Windham Arms Carbine. Remembered even more STUFF to hate about it! Noisy recoil spring, crummy, hard plastic grip, gritty, crummy trigger. But, loved the flat-top receiver... much better for scope mounting. But, man oh man, worst of all was that crummy 6-thing stock! My son upgraded, (his words, not mine) his Colt Competition with it's commercial spec 6-position stock with a MagPul. So I purloined his stock and fitted it to my Windham. Tight, no rattling, and flexible. Added an Ergo grip that fits... CMC trigger, & replaced the recoil spring with a JP Captured Silent Buffer and Spring (man what a difference that unit makes... both my ARs and any I build in the future will have one of these), and:

[Streetstar]

I didn't ask why their guys were so stupid as to keep driving over rifles (in more than one country) after one of my troops ran over an M249......oops.


On the M16 vs M4....

Leaning the guns against the front tire - then forgetting ---- vehicle moves forward -weapon gets run over by rear tires. There are likely a few other scenarios, but this is one i have seen

M16 vs M4 ? I was in during the transitional phase and we treated them all the same . I hate to say "In my day" --- but in my day , the M16A2 was a higher valued commodity to be issued than a carbine unless the carbine was needed for some "Sneaky Pete" exercises.

The carbine in that era was a 10.5 or 11.5" barreled fanny burp knocker and was louder than a 300 mag hunting rifle -- the muzzle blast alone made it unpleasant to shoot ----- this was discovered after you got over the "cool factor" of being special enough to carry a CAR-15 (Special Ed maybe - )

The absolute worst was the port carbine that is normally used through the firing port of a BRadley --- a good many of these were purloined by light infantry troops as well ------- ugly, noisy, little guns, but what can you do ? They are designed to be used in battle and that is not a quiet endeavor (except for the long hours of "hurry up and wait" )

[MrMurphy]

I've had a GAU-5 (USAF issued CAR-15) fired at me with blanks, indoors, in an exercise, from about 5 yards away. By a supply grunt or whoever playing OPFOR. On full auto.

Yeah, I'm acquainted with the noise level....

I've handled an M231, never saw one fired though. The Bradleys lost the firing ports at least 15 years ago.


For the work we were in, the 14.5" M4 was far handier and made a lot more sense. For an open field rifle, like a lot of places in Afghanistan, the M16 still works fine.

The Canadian C7A1 or A2? that is now in use is what the M16A2 should have been, and the M16A4 more or less is. The M16A5 will probably resemble it.

The M16A4, if fitted, like the Canadian rifles, with a collapsible stock would serve quite well for most people. The barrel length helps the ballistics, though the sight radius is fairly irrelevant now that optics are standard, and the collapsing stock fits the rifle to each shooter. I'm 5'9" and in armor with plates, it's real interesting trying to actually shoot a fixed stock A2 in anything but prone. The M4 I shot stock collapsed or 1 click open except in prone.

Except in the wide open spaces, I'll always take the carbine. I've had to bail out of a Humvee at near dead run pulling an M4 out, as well as an M249 way too many times and the shorter length is a definite good thing. With modern ammo and a 1-4 or 1-6X scope, the M4 can still definitely get the job done at some fairly extreme distances. I know one guy (former coworker) who scored a hit on a Taliban at nearly 600m (laser ranged later on) with an M4 and an ACOG. Took a couple hits to persuade him to go see the 72 Virginians, but at double the typical max range for the carbine....still got it done.

[Streetstar]

What i am going to write now may sound blasphemous --- but i will anyway because it just sorta occurred to me

The M16 debuted in the very early 60's with the USAF and special forces groups but was undergoing widespread issuance by 1969 or 1970 ---- Thats a solid 45 years --- If you were an 18 year old buck private in 1969, you are now 66 years old

The M16/AR15 variants may get called a lot of names , but the rifle ha spanned generations --- and the old-timer who had an M16 or M16A1 then can pick up almost any AR15 variant today and know how to use it -- clear it, clean it, etc. right off the bat

I dare say if you look in the mirror and at the calendar and your birthdays turn to 65ish or so (more or less) - the AR15/M16 is the rifle of your generation, - just like it is mine in my early 40's, - and just like it is for the recently separated 26 year old today

pretty wild how time does that

Oh --- but to keep this on track ---- I still like my Guide Gun better now ! I cannot fathom the psychological effect of shooting insurgents with such a beast--(or a .50 beowulf/ 458 socom/450 Bm etc ) -- everything old is new and good again

[Blaine]

In Basic Training, marksmanship with the M16, and M-60 were about the only thing I did that really tickled the DIs, and they really couldn't fault me for much about it. My only hitch about the weapon is that it's not IF it jams,but WHEN it jams......I will say that when they went to the Three Round Burst, that was, IME, a very smart move.
I don't have an AR today, but if I did, it would be a .308.

[firefuzz]

I certainly won't Dis the Armalite PLATFORM per se... but it just never worked for me. I like my Leverguns and HK Rollers. I won't turn down an AR if it is handed to me, but I am unlikely to buy another one.

My experience with H&K weapons systems has been quite the opposite of yours. I've personally owned 2-91's, 3-93's, and 1-94, all H&K products....no clones. IMHO they are heavy, optic mounts are limited, require a $25 tool to adjust the sights, they have horrible triggers, a safety that most people have to shift their hand to operate, no last round bolt hold open, and you have to reach half way down the barrel to cock the action. Accuracy is mediocre at best, I blame the triggers for this. You also don't want B12 cleaner to come in contact with any of the plastic furniture....ask me how I know. Unless you're an LEO or military you don't want to try to deal with H&K's customer service...you're pretty much a non-entity to them.

However I will give them this....they are built like a Mack truck. The last time I did any research on H&K's was over 20 year ago, but I think they still estimate the barrel life at around 75,000 rounds. Still....running over one with a tank or truck???? Unless it's in mud or very soft sand the piece is toast, just like any other rifle.

I'll make you a deal Ironsights...if anyone drops an AR on you and I've had a H&K dropped on me we'll work out a trade.

Rob

[MrMurphy]

Blaine the burst fives it a horrible trigger in either mode. They tried a technical solution to a training issue. Having shot both types extensively I'll take the full auto.

[sore shoulder]

lol Murphy, nothing like having 3 different triggers in one right?

[Blaine]

Blaine the burst fives it a horrible trigger in either mode. They tried a technical solution to a training issue. Having shot both types extensively I'll take the full auto.

You're extensive experience is duly noted. Personally, I never had any trouble with them.

[jeepnik]

Old prejudices die hard. The M-16 and it variants of today is not the same weapon as the original. My kids are fine with them. They've kept them alive and I'm thankful for that.

Still, I found it to be extremely wanting, and after my trouble with one I managed to locate an M-14. Now mind you, I don't think the USAF had any in inventory ever. But as most of you know things get lost and then found from time to time in the military.

Let me make one thing clear, I never had to carry a M-14 all day over hill and dale. If I had, I probably would really have appreciated the weight of the M-16 and it's ammo.

[Malamute]

A long time ago one tried to get me killed. I haven't forgiven them...

What, exactly happened, if you dont mind discussing it?

[Panzercat]

On February 26th in the year of our Lord 2015, I took thine AR out to Saint Ben Avery to shooth some rounds. 62 grainth cycled flawlessly, 55 grainth did not, but shows signs of being able to string at least five rounds together before stoppage. This is my experience with thy AR

[Malamute]

What type of 62 and 55 gr loads, FMJ, or soft point,...hollow point?

What make and type ammo? Some of the steel case import stuff is said my some to be a bit underpowered compared to GI spec ammo.

[Panzercat]

What type of 62 and 55 gr loads, FMJ, or soft point,...hollow point? What make and type ammo? Some of the steel case import stuff is said my some to be a bit underpowered compared to GI spec ammo.

Don't worry about it too much It's been an ongoing issue that i don't want to hijack this thread with again. All brass FMJ loads, no steel (this time). I think its slowly getting better.

[Bill in Oregon]

Thanks to all who posted. And a special thanks to all who served. I was !A, but the draft ended just as I was about to enlist.
I'm taking notes on this thread.

[sore shoulder]

What type of 62 and 55 gr loads, FMJ, or soft point,...hollow point?
.

I'm more interested in the gun. As in what brand(s), who assembled, what barrel/chamber. There's a reason that at a very minimum I require a chrome lined 5.56 barrel. However there's several other factors that could cause this, gas system is one of them. Ive seen this happen with a loose improperly staked gas key from a low grade parts kit.

[Malamute]

I was wondering much of the same things. Not saying this applies to the person in reference, but when folks buy the cheapest parts, (because cost! It's just as good) then they dont run right, it isnt neccasarily an "AR problem". Same with cheap ammo. If one is willing to accept that cheap ammo isnt always going to be reilaible, then OK. Buying accepted levels of quality/brand/makers of guns (and not neccesarily building one from parts from diverse, unknown makers) and high quality commercial (not economy grade) or true mil spec type ammo generally results in well running guns.

I would say though, the the Colts I've had would run on some pretty carpy ammo without a hitch.

[Malamute]

Don't worry about it too much It's been an ongoing issue that i don't want to hijack this thread with again. All brass FMJ loads, no steel (this time). I think its slowly getting better.

What make and load?

[sore shoulder]

I was wondering much of the same things. Not saying this applies to the person in reference, but when folks buy the cheapest parts, (because cost! It's just as good) then they dont run right, it isnt neccasarily an "AR problem". Same with cheap ammo. If one is willing to accept that cheap ammo isnt always going to be reilaible, then OK. Buying accepted levels of quality/brand/makers of guns (and not neccesarily building one from parts from diverse, unknown makers) and high quality commercial (not economy grade) or true mil spec type ammo generally results in well running guns.

I would say though, the the Colts I've had would run on some pretty carpy ammo without a hitch.

Yes, a quality gun will run even the crappiest of ammo. And of course none of this is directed at anyone personally, but, there is definitely more to this story.

[Griff]

If you were an 18 year old buck private in 1969, you are now 66 years old

EERRRGGG! XXX Wrong! That 'NEW' math ain't workin'! Unless you got that flux-capacitor installed in that Delorean and 8million kilowatt surge, you'd be 64! I was that 18yo in 2/69, and in 2/15 I ain't seen 65 YET! Let alone 66!

But, yes your point is well made. But, don't forget, "familiarity breeds contempt"

[Panzercat]

What make and load?

Independence Brass 55gr FMJ 5.56. -Fail (runs 1-5 shot strings, short strokes)
Tula steel 55gr FMJ .223 -Fail (runs 1-2 shot strings, short strokes, occasional Failure to Extract)

PMC Brass X-TAC 62gr 5.56 - Go
Prvi Partizan Brass 62gr 5.56 - Go

[sore shoulder]

Short stroke sounds like a gas issue to me. I've used Independance and Tula with no problems like that. However I have adopted a no tolerance policy for steel cased ammo in an AR. Especially lacquered.

[Streetstar]

If you were an 18 year old buck private in 1969, you are now 66 years old

EERRRGGG! XXX Wrong! That 'NEW' math ain't workin'! Unless you got that flux-capacitor installed in that Delorean and 8million kilowatt surge, you'd be 64! I was that 18yo in 2/69, and in 2/15 I ain't seen 65 YET! Let alone 66!

But, yes your point is well made. But, don't forget, "familiarity breeds contempt"

Sorry Griff -- I must have meant 20 year old private --- The darn ugly little gun has been in continuous use a lot longer than its more powerful predecessors though.

The G3 and Fal are not in widespread use with developed nations now -- i think Eugene Stoners little black gun has surpassed those 2 luminaries in regards to how long its been used as well -- i think the AK variants hold the record for longest time in service though if we look at 1947 as the beginning

[RKrodle]

My introduction was in 1979. I was a 17 year old fresh outta high school country boy looking for adventure, So I joined the Marines. We had the M16A1 then. I thought I was married to that thing for 3 months of boot camp. After boot camp I didn't get to use one much, I was air wing and keeping KC130's and P3's(Whole nother story) in the air took up most of my time. After I got out I always wanted to buy an AR but never seemed to have the money with bills to pay and the need of food to feed the family. Then about 5 years ago I got a Spikes in a trade and have added a couple more since then. Everything so far has been the M4 style, I still want a full sized version.

[jeepnik]

A long time ago one tried to get me killed. I haven't forgiven them...

What, exactly happened, if you dont mind discussing it?

I've mentioned it before. Case head tore from the body and then it tired to chamber another round. You pretty much needed an armorer back then to fix it. I understand they have a broken shell extractor these days. Still, you really don't have time for that sort of thing unless you are sitting on a range somewhere.

[Paladin]

Thanks all for a good read. It seems a few of us have a bit in common. I grew up a farm kid and was a gun nut after my mom taught me to shoot. She grew up in WV and the only gun in the house was her Sears .22 bolt action. All of my uncles except two were in the military so I got to hunt and shoot with them as we had a couple of hundred acres and they came to hunt, shoot, and fly (we built an airstrip down the middle when I was a teenager).
Graduated High School as a Junior and was working at the Akron Muni Airport for Menching Aviation as a A&P after High school.
One day in July 1973 a C-130 landed and backed up to the section next to where I was working dropped the ramp and crew took crew rest and left. A couple of guys in OGs were walking out to the aircraft saw me looking at it and ask me if I would like a tour. There was a 7th SF GP A-Team with all their equipment boxes waiting to be picked up. Two hours later I had been all through the C-130, handled all the equipment for a SF SCUBA Team, and handled my first M-21s, M-16A1s, and MP-5s.
On Sep 7, 1973 I was enlisted waiting for Basic at Ft Polk, LA where I got familiar with the M-16A1, M-60, and M-14w/ Starlight scope the M16s have never failed me. I was very lucky and after 29 years 11 mouths, with some of the best people I have ever meet, in units were we got to pick the weapons we used when we traveled, getting paid to shoot on a military High Power Rifle team for a few years with a M-14 and the last year with a M-16A2 after Iraq in 2003 and some other places I retired in 2004. I have used ARs and like them for soft targets if I am not limited to M855 ammo. I carried an M-14 in Iraq and a MP-5s in Africa and Afghanistan with an M-4 or M-16A2 in the locker. I have a few ARs still in different calibers along with a assortment of other toys that when I am lucky I still get paid to use (just not very often any more).

[FWiedner]

I picked up my first M16A1 on Parris Island in Jan 1976. Practiced with it as required by the organizing entity, and bought an A1 Carbine of my very own in 1980. Had to leave that in storage with someone I thought could be trusted, and it disappeared in about 1982 (now that I am practicing advanced cynicism skills... Surprise! ) Went throught the M16A2 transition and bought a Colt A2 HBAR in ... maybe 1987. Still have that one. My only 1/7. Acquired a half-dozen DPMS A-15 and an LR-308 lower(s) through on-line auction misadventures and built them up in a few different configurations. I didn't spend a lot of money on (all of) them, but in spite of their 'low-end' heritage, I've put thousands of rounds down-range (lube, lube, lube) and they are all , each one, 'ready to rock', Maybe they aren't 'Mil-Spec' but I've got plenty of extras and spare parts in the rotation.

Interestingly, my favorite .223/5.56 is still my Mini-14 that I bought in 1983.

[Streetstar]

Interestingly, my favorite .223/5.56 is still my Mini-14 that I bought in 1983.

I like the Mini's too -- i had a folding stock variety for a brief time - but sold it when i couldnt get a load worked up that was up to my accuracy standards --

--- Now that i have an M1A, i am looking at the Mini's again as it needs a smaller brother

[MrMurphy]

Streetstar, the AK didn't actually reach units until 1949, and it wasn't truly in wide use (as far as anyone knew) until the 1956 Hungarian uprising.

The FAL and G3 both went into service in the mid 50s, so they've only got the AR beat by a decade.

[firefuzz]

If you were an 18 year old buck private in 1969, you are now 66 years old

EERRRGGG! XXX Wrong! That 'NEW' math ain't workin'! Unless you got that flux-capacitor installed in that Delorean and 8million kilowatt surge, you'd be 64! I was that 18yo in 2/69, and in 2/15 I ain't seen 65 YET! Let alone 66!

But, yes your point is well made. But, don't forget, "familiarity breeds contempt"

Sorry Griff -- I must have meant 20 year old private --- The darn ugly little gun has been in continuous use a lot longer than its more powerful predecessors though.

The G3 and Fal are not in widespread use with developed nations now -- i think Eugene Stoners little black gun has surpassed those 2 luminaries in regards to how long its been used as well -- i think the AK variants hold the record for longest time in service though if we look at 1947 as the beginning

I think the British Enfield still may hold that distinction. It would be getting close for the AK tho.

Rob

[firefuzz]

Interestingly, my favorite .223/5.56 is still my Mini-14 that I bought in 1983.

I like the Mini's too -- i had a folding stock variety for a brief time - but sold it when i couldnt get a load worked up that was up to my accuracy standards --

Having grown up fondling a Garand I've always looked at the Mini-14 with favor. Except for one thing....if you can find one that will consistently shoot under 2" with good FMJ ammo you'd better keep it. Out of the more than a dozen I've owned only 2 ever got near the 1" mark and I stupidly let them go for a profit. Another issue with them is reliable hi-cap mags. The only ones I've ever found to the dead-nuts reliable are the factory Rugers @ $40.00 plus a pop when you can find them. I've never tried the new P-Mags, but no other brand I've tried, quite a few, were 100% reliable in every gun. The original factory folding stocks sell for $500-$750 just by themselves.

Rob

[Old Ironsights]

The Mini was never supposed to be accurate. It was designed to spray bullets into the ether (without hitting anything living or valuable) whilst scaring the BGs into surrendering.

At least that's how they worked on "A-Team"...

[Panzercat]

Honestly, I'm still getting used to how dirty these things get after 7-8 mags on the range. Then again, I've never had anything that I could just dump 250 so rounds in such a comparatively small space of time. Not like I would pump off 200 or so rounds of 30-30 in the same time.