I need advice

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:05 pm

You sent money to this guy? Are you totally nuts?

Honestly, I think you've done a lot to feed this fire, and I'll bet you are as angry at yourself as you are at this gunsmith. But man, if what you say in your posts is even partially true, then why the heck would you actually send this guy money? I don't want to know his name because I don't really care one way or the other, but I do want to know HOW MUCH money you sent this guy.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:49 pm

Maybe a little nuts , but not totaly , I hope . Remeber a few things . He suppled another rifle for the money I gave him . albeit at the pace recorded . I have a vested interest as he has my gun , and I have recieved a picture of the completed weapon , which I know is mine as the special things I asked to be done are visable on the photo. Next , and this is important , I believe this guy is a nice guy who does good work . I am NOT happy with the way the work load was carried out and the stories that went with it . I believe you will see that I did the right thing in the end , as I believe I will get my gun back next week . I realy dont want to say at this point what I gave him as he gave me a deal because of all the screw ups . Of course if I get taken its not a deal but again I dont think so . If it all goes south I wll be happy to tell you how much I sent him while on the way to the funny farm .I think your evaluation of me stoking the fire is akin to saying reporting bad customer service in any venue is stoking the fire. If not taking untold stuff is stiring the fire I am all for it .

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:55 am

Prayers up eagles.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:18 pm

The money was picked up this morning at 830 AM , as it seems by some one with the same last name but not his initial . I assume it may have been the wife . I specificaly requested he go to the post office with my gun packed up , open the letter and see it was us postal money orders and at once hand the clerk my gun and get it off . I can't say that did not happen but no emails have been recieved that it did and that was seven hours ago . I sent an email asking if it was sent as I was told it would be, but so far no reply . If it were me I would have made sure that gun was off and would have sent an email pronto about it . Oh yeah I know he could be real busy with all kinds of stuff . Customer service is not one of them .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:40 pm

Ok GREAT NEWS , tHE GUN WAS SENT!!!!! I have the tracking number and confirmation number , guese I was not so nuts after all in sending the funds . I will report when I get it .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:08 pm

SIGH, back in the oven . I called the post office to see when it would arrive based on the confirmation number that was emailed to me . They told me no such number exists , I tried to use the insurance number and was told it was only good for a claim AFTER 21 DAYS if it never showed up . I emailed back for a good number . I am only posting these things to show what one has to go through some times , gunsmiths reading this realize how important some of this stuff is to your clients !!!!! If they would have given me an arrival date I would be breathing easy One snafu after the other adds up !!!!!! May be nothing in the end , but still a big pain in the mid road .

Mtnfolk75 · Post by **Mtnfolk75** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:29 pm

Postal tracking numbers don't usually show up for 24-48 hours, at least that has been my experience with the USPS.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:32 pm

The problem was as they told me was it was not a complete number , just not a real tracking number. I am hoping it was just a typo in the email but no response as of yet.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:36 am

Back in busines , he gave me THE WRONG NUMBER !!! The latest number indicates the package was sent , and I can follow it . So now I just wait for the arrival .

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:18 pm

Hang in there, and tell us how cool your rifle is when you get it.

And if it is really cool write a thank you letter to the gunsmith, you can rib' him for being slow, but let him know you appreciate his craft, it goes a long way.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:44 pm

of course I will , I will say one way or the other , good or bad. I suspect it will be good based on most of the work on the last piece . This will be my second 50 lever gun . I have a 50-95 model 76 on order , that one to be restocked and engraved only . Work will be done by Gouse engraving a TOP notch craftsman with great skill and great work ethics .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:32 pm

Its been a long day , just removed the gun from the box. THE GOOD NEWS IS I HAVE IT !!!!! Quick evaluation. Metal work looks very good , action works smooth (have not fed a round through yet ) Scope looks good on the gun but the barrel was rotated so they were out of allignment . I will have to reset it with a screw driver . Case hardening is nice but a bit grey for me , i prefer more blues and blacks but it is ok. the buleet trap in the buttstock is very well done , flush and operates nicely . Barrel is tapered ocatagon to round and is very nice . Stock shape is fine , grade of wood is fair . I thought I was getting a better grade, its kind of a stock grade you would see on any production gun. Finish is oil but not near enough coats , I will fix that with lots of hand rubbing. My singles biggest complaint is the solid rubber recoil pad . The bottem edge has a very large wedge shaped piece scooped out . No attempt was made to even it up(unles it was even larger to start ! ) and it will have to be replaced for sure . The pad should have been redone Unles it can be worked down enough but I dont think so . Bluing is nice on the gun . So overall I wish the wood was better qaulity , the finish was better and the butt pad was finished decently . STILL I AM JUST HAPPY TO0 HAVE IT . NO worries it wont go back for fixing !!!! Im off to a local guy if I need that !!!! When I get time I will try and send some pics .

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:32 pm

Try?

At this point you're practically obligated to post pictures.

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:52 pm

If I hit a lotto, I am going to buy your rifle. I don't care if it is 40 or 50 thousand dollars. The price is nothing, I can sell a book for more than that off the history of this work you had done. Start thinking of a price, I feel lucky.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:52 pm

TRY!!! "There's no 'try', either do or not do!"

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:06 pm

Bruce , hit that lotto and let me know . I'll make you a deal you can't refuse !!!! Ill take some shots tomorrow in the daylite .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:07 pm

I took one of the rounds he sent in the but trap , minus primer and powder and attempted to feed it through the action . I slid it in the loading gate and it went right in to the rim where it stuck solid. As though the rim was the wrong size. I could not push it in (declined to really force it ,as it was it was stuck ) and could not retract it with finger pressure . I had to carfully pry it out. I have emailed asking what could be the problem . I am afraid to try it again tonight . Any ideas ? It stuck right at the rim with the gate still depressed under the pressure . these dummy rounds were loaded , he said with Montana bullet works 450 grain lead slug . the rounds look in perfect shape , no deformities visable

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:17 pm

Perhaps the OAL is a tad long and it just got hitched at an odd angle. I'm sure one of the guys here will be able to diagnose the problem once the pictures are posted ... tomorrow ... in natural sunlight ... shots at multiple angles will certainly help.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:11 pm

Pics probablywont show this problem as I am hesitant to reduplicate it until it goes to the smith . Over all length is not the problem as those 450 grain slugs are seated deep . I have emailed the maker to ask his thoughts also , surely he fed some rounds through the gate , thees are the rounds he sent .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:07 pm

OK I took six pictures of the gun . I really dont know how topost them here , but I scanned them to a member who had emailed me pm about this and I asked him to post them , then I can talk about them. Here is the latest . Two dummy shells were in the bullet trap in the butstock . The first one as I said would not load past the rim . I tried the second one today and it went it and cycled through , BUT when I tried to eject it it just lays in the open action and I have to turn the gun upsiode down to let it fall out. I emailed the smith about it and he said the rounds are to heavy to eject with the bullet in them (remember no primer or powder ) . These are 450 grain lead slugs . I asked how one was supposed to recycle the rounds out you dont shoot and he said they should fall out (when you flip over the gun) I dont have any empty brass to check this out but has anyone else here had the experiance that unloaded rounds of large calibers just lay flat in the action? Before anyone suggests it , no , they are hitting the scope and falling back in , they simply come straight out of the chamber and lay there even with a brisk ejection effort . I can comment more when the pics are up .

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:02 pm

Just for reference, many users post their photos up on a free hosting site like PhotoBucket. From there, you simply insert a link into your post on this forum using the "img" tag. There are copy links on the PhotoBucket site that make this particularly easy. I'm sure there are many other free picture hosting services ... I just happen to use PhotoBucket. If you look at the stickies section at the top of the forum message list, you will probably see one specifically for pictures.

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:54 pm

Photos posted for Eagles:

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:32 pm

ok thanks to a kind member here arew the shots of the gun I took today. My close up camera was out of space so I had to use what I had . Still you can see at the butt plate end the groslly uneven chopped up pad . The shadow portion is the divit , not to mention the inletting at the bottem is sloppy . That part ruins the picture for me and I have to get it redone. The Cartridge trap is shown open and closed and is very well done . The wood is REALLY plain and I had asked for a much better qaulity of wood . I was told today that it was asked for but this is what was sent as well as if the grain was to much in the but stock the trap could not be inleted. Yes it would be a little harder but that is just a bad reason. My other gun a high grade model 71 with great wood grain was inletted by him with the same contraption. This one had to be advanced a bit up the stock because I am suuposed to have a dead mule recoil reducer in the but stock that took up some room. By the way the wood is a little better looking in these photos as I another coat of tongue oil on last night . Case hardening is a little more grey in real life and I prefer the darker shades but is done ok. He sent the gunout for that , but I Don't know where . Look at Turnbulls case hardening to see fantastic case hardening colors . Metal work is good , blueing is uniform and nice . Action works smoothly. one thing I forgot to do is compare the lever shape to my other 71. I was told for months and months the hold up was geting this lever to look more like an 86 . Yet to my eye it looks identical to stock shape of the 71 , I dont think it was changed one bit . I will look later . im not sure about it not ejecting loaded rounds (in this case partialy loaded , as no powder or primer ) Every lever action I ever owned ejected all live shells just fine , yes these are about the largest lever action rounds in the world but do others have 50-110's that wont eject an unfired round ? Please tell me ? I have to have the spire points I had made redone. I was not told until last that those rounds wont cycle or even fit in the trap as they are a bit to long (650 grain spire point for single loading , but I was hoping to have one in chamber and one in mag ) I can still shoot them singly for long range play . The scope is 6X fixed hairs , external adjustment and long eye relief. I was worried about the shells ejecting BUT he told he they do eject with the scope in place . I will probably have it checkered , and for sure the but pad redone .I really want a full restock but then it would inciude the trap and dead mule etc so I guese Im stock with the stock looking wood .

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:08 pm

What the heck is that thing on top of the rifle?

Well, anyway, I hope you're happy. Guess I just don't understand the world of fancy big caliber lever rifles or the world of those who fancy such fancy things. But to me, there is no more beautifully perfect thing in the world than a Winchester Model 94, so maybe I just "don't get it".

But, seriously, what on earth is that thing on top of the rifle?

To each his own, I suppose.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:23 pm

I guese this is supposed to be a sarcastic question in the first place ? I did explain in a few posts that it is a turn of the century style 6x long eye relief scope . I thought it might be fun to try and see how far out I could hit somthing with a 50 -110. I had a model 94 when I was 12 . I prefer the older model 76 and 86 actually . Had the 30-30 , 32 special , 25 -25 etc ,.I like the big bore guns , if you like the 30-30 then that is ok I dont have to "understand " you to figure out why you like those . If you like paint ball guns and think they are the greatest thing that is ok also . Thats why they make all sorts of guns and calibers , levers and bolts , sniper rifles and flintlocks and even the model 94.BY THE WAY MOST OF MY GUNS ARE FLINTLOCKS

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:51 pm

I just looked at the photos. I can see what you mean by the buttpad. I think I understand about the wood, but I like that grain, you musta anticipated a more figured piece. Also understandable. But, I love those case colors. The one thing I do know about CCH, is that the colors you get are quite unpredictable.

I think, overall, you have very nice piece. Certainly one that I'd have love to have in my collection. (Although, I'm not overly fond of "glass)!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:01 pm

Love the case colors. Who makes that cartridge trap ... NECG?

Wow, that scope is literally the length of the barrel and then some. I would not have imagined that.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:32 pm

I agree over all its a nice piece . The trap was my idea and hand made by the smith as far as I know . As for the scope its really funny as I hate them moslty . I used to rib all my friends who went hunting with them calling them optical delusions as I said you are deluding yourself into thinking its you who are doing the shooting . I have hunted with nothing but opensighted flintlocks for over thirty years , back in the 80's collecting the world record muzzle loading grizzly in Alaska with a 60 cal round ball open site gun , as well as Moose , Boar ,lots of dear etc . The lever action is the only cartridge gun I like the looks of and really like the 0ld Marble style peep sites or express folding leaf ( what i have on my 60 cal side by side flint and used on the griz and moose ) I got interested more or less historicaly , in the long tube scopes by seeing some of the old sniper scopes and ultra long range scopes used on the old sharps and then some of the old winchester levers . In my book the old rifles were really outstanding long range and world class rifles of their erra . Look at a high grade model 86, or 76, long barrel , set triggers a, great wood , high caliber engraving if you wanted it and beautiful wood . To me the model 94 went straight down hill and when I was a kid it was the poor mans deer rifle , not in the class with the model 70's , Manlichers etc . Thasts Winchesrter fault. But those old levers held their own world wide . So I decided to see what would happen if I put one of those period scopes on a real big bore lever for some LONG range shooting , targets mind you . That was my intention BUT I wanted to recapture a bit of the glamor of the high grade guns of old , hence the better wood, I did not get , etc , I may have the gun engraved eventually but with that wood , oh well . Ialso wanted a set trigger on the gun but no one can do it ,not even turnbull . I also have a model 95 , 405 standard grade but I had it engraved added a nice period peep site . I just like the big bores ,probably cause most of my muzzle loaders are big bores . Last Wild Boar I shot a few years ago was with a 75 caliber Jaeger flintlock, one shot , a nice 350 pounder. I want a model 76 in 50-95 strictly a peep sited or open site gun. This is my one and only glassed rifle ! I had to get extra heavy mounts for it as otherwise the 50-110 would destroy the external mounts . I Must admit to have a liking for the model 94 in 375 winchester as a big bore lever . Had a 444 when they first came out nice gun but blew stuff apart with the old 44 magnum 240 grain slugs . The big bore 375 is the First model 94 I ever wanted since I traded mine in as a kid for a Marlin. ( as a lefty back then the fired shells hit me straight in the face ) .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:33 pm

I forget to add no ne answered about the fired shells not ejecting ? Some one out there has to have a 45-70 etc , does your gun eject un fired rounds , my bet is YES .

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:12 am

First I'm glad you have your rifle back. It's sad that it didn't come out the way you wanted. You gave the smith instruction ,money and time but he didn't do his part

Now about ejecting live rounds. I have a 50AK built on a Marlin 1895 that has no problem ejecting live rounds using 525grn cast bullets! When all calms down please post better pictures. I would also like to see some of your other custom levers and flinters

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:30 am

EVER THOUGHT OF BUYING A STOCK RIFLE. I honestly think that I have done a better job installing a butt pad than the guy did on your rifle. However, IMO, and I am no expert the rest of the work looks pretty nice. Not sure what happened on the stuck case. My guess is he was just making a dummy cartridge to go in the slot and didnt bother with ensuring proper deminsions. Kind of reminds me about the rule of not shooting other peoples reloads unless you are totally aware of their capabilities.
I sure hope you get to enjoy the rifle one day!

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:58 am

Eagles, I have always liked flintlocks, and I'd love to see some pics of yours. I'm sure you've got some nice firearms that I would like, but as we both know, what really matters is if YOU like what you've got, and I'm sure you do like them. The custom 50 cal lever that you have been posting about does not tickle my interest, but again, that's OK as long as it is something you like. I guess I was being kind of harsh in my most previous post, but I personally wonder about that scope thing. Looks kind of, well, nevermind, I should keep my mouth shut if I don't have something nice to say...

Overall, I feel for you and for what you've gone through with this struggle to get your rifles back. I had a guy d this same thing to me a few years back with some O gauge train pieces that I had sent off to be custom painted by a guy who was a "highly-regarded craftsman" big-shot on a popular Internet train forum. That guy made me pay in full up front, promised 3 months to finish the work, and then repeatedly yanked me around for another 6 months with repeated promises that the work was "almost done," or "would be done next week -- a picture will be emailed to you," or "it's done and I just need to ship it out," etc. That went on for months, and I saved all of the emails. Really did bug me, a lot. Nobody likes to feel like someone is making a chump out of them and no one likes to be repeatedly given bold faced lies right to their face by another so-called man. When I finally got my train stuff back, it looked like he had farmed the work out to a 3rd grader to do my project. When I posted about it on the train forum, I was soundly criticised, belittled, and the forum elites made out like I was a bad guy just because their popular "friend" had treated me like a chump. My posts were deleted by the moderators, etc. So, I do feel for you. The difference is that the total cost of the work I had done was around $100, and the guy had made me pay up front. If I'd been in your shoes, I would have told the gunsmith to get my stuff returned to me ASAP or I would have reported the rifle stolen and been done with it.

Anyway, good luck with your rifle and best wishes

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:33 am

Thanks Foxtrapper . Anyone have any ideas of what it would take the fix the ejection problem ? A New ejector ?

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:51 am

Ok , on some flinters , if you look at Tim Browns custom flintlocks and go to the gallary you can see a high art German Jaeger with a brass Barrel he made for me as well as a Matching pistol , I think he also has some shots of the boar I toolk with the 75 caliber rifle a few years ago . As to stock guns , sure as soon as some one makes a long barreled 50-110 like winchester used to make them Ill run right out and get one .!! Look at Turnbulls levers ,like Winchester use to make guns . Most of those however were special orders, but still it was a factory gun. Until those return some people want more than most of the modern stock levers can offer . The scope looks strange , anitiquated and it should , when you are trying to duplicate an old look then you have to go with what was arround then , it makes it more interesting to me as a modern scope holds no interest to me in the least . If I put a modern scope on this gun it would look blasphemous in my eyes so its in style and taste and what floats your boat. I appreciate it because it came from an erra long gone just like the 50-110 round . It may come off IF it turns out to be unworkable and then Im back to the peep site. I'm on the list for 76, 50-95 from cimeron with high grade wood . That will be stock but for the engraving . Back to my gun , I got the ejector working , it was stuck I think but NOW the unfired rounds DO hit the barrel of the scope and wont eject. This was my FIRST concern when I sent him the scope and he told me the fired cases made a nice "tick sound" as they touched the barrel of the scope, but ejected well clear . Live rounds were not discused. I should have asked , and should have been told of the scope blockage ,especially since I asked right up front as a concern . I even asked the suppler of the scope and was told a few big bore lever actionm shooters had them mounted with no problems , exept they had to redesign the external mounts for the big 50's . I dont have an empty case to try , if anyone can send me one , pm me a I would like to try that before I start firing live rounds . These type of things to me are really cheesy , if I had been told of any ejection problems right off , the scope idea would have been scraped . . I can live with it flipping live rounds up to the scope as long as the fired shells clear with no gymnastics necessary on my part . I understand the last 94 's had some sort of side ejector so scopes could be used , how did that work ? Here is another question , remember I said on my high grade model 71 he did first in 50 Alaskan , their is a ladder type peep mounted on the wrist that is usless as it has to be put down between the working of the lever . He sent me a Marbles improved peep tang site I had asked him for before the scope idea came along . He seemd to think it would work , now I doubt everything . Will this work on the tang of a 71 ? Will the bolt clear it as it stands ? It seems to me the wrist angle drops too much for the site to work , would it be high enough to see down the barrel ? Does anyone have a better peep site if this one is not good for a 71 as I need to scrap the ladder peep on my 50 Alaskan. How about a bolt mounted peep, is it made and will it work ? The guy who did this work kept telling me he was designing a folding peep that went into the bolt but he said that for years and I never saw one . I orriginally wanted the entire long scope in Brass as som of old ones were made like that , but could not locate one , just this one that has some brass on it . If you notice the lens caps are brass and are threaded on both ends which is pretty cool. Thanks for the help

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:58 am

Forgot to say ,remember how I was told for about six months the big hold up was the fine new lever that took so long to craft , was shaped a lot more like the 86 ,less curve than the stock 71 ? As you may have seen in the picture , I got the completle stock lever of the 71 .

ernest haycox · Post by **ernest haycox** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:50 am

Eagles,welcome to the forum.I'm new here, too.Well,the rifle is very nice with just a few more problems to resolve.We live in a time of low morality and dog eat dog.It's everywhere.This new house of ours;i could tell you stories you would not believe.And it was with everybody;the excavator,the electrician,the contractor;all of them.I had some dark thoughts i won't even mention;they are lucky and don't even know it!Anyway,hang in there and welcome.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:00 pm

Latest, the smith actualy sent me some empty brass , not sure why however , after trying to get them to eject ? Remember how he claimed they ejected fine , made a nice pleasant "clink" sound as they touched the scope on the way out . NOT A CHANCE , the fact is they wont eject at all just like the loaded or dummy rounds . The empty casings hit the scope square and are thrown back down in the empty action . No matter how fast or slow I lever it or what angle I use . SOOOO , I wasted over $450 on the scope (had the right to return it with in a few weeks if it did not work , hence I wanted to know right away if it would allow the rounds to cycle ) . So off with the scope . Back to the marbles tang peep site if it will work .

I need advice

lottery