POLITICS - Greatest threat to our freedom

[JohnnyReb]

Gentlemen and Ladies:
Please follow the story in Texas on the seizure of the children in the "polygamy" compound.

This could be the beginning of the installation of a national standard for morality and conduct. Not a defined and concise legal standard such as law.....but as one child services official stated: "a fluid and continuing case which will need to be adjusted to the circumstances". Never in the speeches of any dictator will you find a more dangerous statement.

416 children seized....123 neglect cases filed. What is the basis for holding the other 293 children from their parents? Because the government has the force of arms to keep them!!!.......period!!!

I am not usually so excitable, but as a lawyer, this case offends everything I know and love about our constitution.

Right out of Hitler's playbook: (paraphased) They came for the Jews and We said nothing; they came for the Poles and We said nothing; they came for poor and We said nothing....Then they came for We and there were none left to say...

[rjohns94]

Dangerous times we are in. Dark paths we walk.

[El Mac]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish". Actually, its been long overdue.

I think back to the good ol' days when a few Rangers would have rode in and shot all of the pedophiles and case closed.

Lawyers. That is the problem with the "law" nowadays. We are inundated by them to the point that we now have "analysis paralysis".

[AJMD429]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish".

Of course there's the case where someone killed the 20 year old 'child molester' who had moved into their neighborhood; the kid had made the mistake of getting in bed with a 17 year old girl if I recall correctly - anyway, just pointing out that while we all rightly dislike the 'pedophile' that there are those who would stretch the definition, and believe me - if it comes to a setup for 'stretching definitions' - any situation involving a group of government-defiant individuals will get amply 'stretched' if it serves the interest of those in power.

Kind of like the guy whose AR-15 malfunctioned at the range, so he was charged [and convicted and doing time] for "manufacturing and possessing an unregistered machine-gun" even though the court found it was indeed a malfunction and NOT illegal parts in the gun.

These people may be strange, and may even include serious pedophiles, but overzealous stormtrooping still has its own dangers.

[sore shoulder]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish". Actually, its been long overdue.

I think back to the good ol' days when a few Rangers would have rode in and shot all of the pedophiles and case closed.

Lawyers. That is the problem with the "law" nowadays. We are inundated by them to the point that we now have "analysis paralysis".

There is no proof of any abuse as of yet, only one allegation from a person yet to be found. All those removed from the "compound" were in good health and none as far as I know have made any claims of abuse. However now there are reports of some of them falling ill. This would be because they are being fed processed food. They are undoubtably very acclimated to a more wholesome and unrefined diet. Try it yourself sometime, go on a fresh fruit and vegtetable diet for 60 days. You'll feel better than you've ever felt in your life. Then eat a hamburger from McDonalds or a corndog. You will get sick.

If you want to irreparably tarnish someones reputation and credibility, and lend credibility to your own unjustified actions, simply label your target or opponent a child abuser/molester and there will be little or no outcry from the public over what would otherwise be completely illegal behavior perpetrated by authorities.

At this point all we have are allegations. Everyone gets their day in court, everyone, and innocent until proven guilty always applies.

There was no signed statement from an individual with a face, it was a phone call. How can that be considered enough evidence for a warrant? Make no mistake, that was merely an excuse to go in to someplace they were itching to get into. This means your neighbor can get mad at you, call the cops and accuse you of molesting your kid, and you will be arrested and your children taken into custody.


Show me one eyewitness, just one.

[JohnnyReb]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish". Actually, its been long overdue.

I think back to the good ol' days when a few Rangers would have rode in and shot all of the pedophiles and case closed.

Lawyers. That is the problem with the "law" nowadays. We are inundated by them to the point that we now have "analysis paralysis".

That is the broadbrush mentality the government is hoping for....
If that is true then why not go into the Ghetto and pickup all the children who are having children at 13 and 14 years of age.... Think they are only having sex with other 13 and 14 year olds?

[JohnnyReb]

Somehow I don't think rescueing underage children from pedophiles is "hitlerish". Actually, its been long overdue.

I think back to the good ol' days when a few Rangers would have rode in and shot all of the pedophiles and case closed.

Lawyers. That is the problem with the "law" nowadays. We are inundated by them to the point that we now have "analysis paralysis".

There is no proof of any abuse as of yet, only one allegation from a person yet to be found. All those removed from the "compound" were in good health and none as far as I know have made any claims of abuse. However now there are reports of some of them falling ill. This would be because they are being fed processed food. They are undoubtably very acclimated to a more wholesome and unrefined diet. Try it yourself sometime, go on a fresh fruit and vegtetable diet for 60 days. You'll feel better than you've ever felt in your life. Then eat a hamburger from McDonalds or a corndog. You will get sick.

If you want to irreparably tarnish someones reputation and credibility, and lend credibility to your own unjustified actions, simply label your target or opponent a child abuser/molester and there will be little or no outcry from the public over what would otherwise be completely illegal behavior perpetrated by authorities.

At this point all we have are allegations. Everyone gets their day in court, everyone, and innocent until proven guilty always applies.

There was no signed statement from an individual with a face, it was a phone call. How can that be considered enough evidence for a warrant? Make no mistake, that was merely an excuse to go in to someplace they were itching to get into. This means your neighbor can get mad at you, call the cops and accuse you of molesting your kid, and you will be arrested and your children taken into custody.


Show me one eyewitness, just one.

That is exactly my point! These people have been labeled and therefore guilty. Children are held without a warrant or allegation against any of the parents.

[Old Ironsights]

Mass Hysteria in Eldorado Texas

Special to The Libertarian Enterprise

Everybody saw it on TV and the Internet: "heroic" federal law enforcement officers "rescuing" hundreds of young women from the "compound" of a "polygamist sect" in Texas, the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Church, to the unanimous applause of the media hairspray set, and with no one to speak for those the government had singled out.

Again.

It made me think of 1969, when I was appointed a district officer for the Toastmasters International Youth Leadership Program. I duly publicized the program, arranged for a meeting room at World Savings & Loan in Lynwood, California and conducted one meeting there. I would have had many more, except that one functionally illiterate security guard decided that I was hosting "young communist meetings", and that ended the program. I had become a victim of mass hysteria—at the time, the accusation that ended all dreams and aspirations was "communist".

When the "communist" label quit working, the government and their media lackeys—or vice versa—were pressed to come up with some new, indisputable accusation by which their enemies could be easily vanquished without trial. Thus we saw the vicious 1993 attack by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation's criminally misnamed "Hostage Rescue Team" on the Branch Davidians for "child abuse" that was never proven—and in fact was repudiated by local law enforcement officials. The one girl who testified to abuse before Congress later recanted her story.

This is not the first massive raid on the FLDS. It happened before in 1953, in Short Creek, Arizona, now known as Colorado City. The raid resulted in the expense of thousands of Arizona government man-hours and millions of taxpayer dollars. Even without the Internet, word spread of the government's abuses in that case, and sympathy turned in the direction of victims of those raids, which led to the end of the career of John Howard Pyle, the Arizona governor who insisted on the raid.

See Kidnapped from that Land by Martha Sonntag Bradley, the story of a young girl who was taken into "protective custody" in the incident.

It's important to understand that the Branch Davidian raid was carried out on the "strength" of a perjured (criminally falsified) affidavit, and that no warrant was ever presented before or during the government assault. History now repeats itself in the Texas Bible Belt. An alleged phone call from an alleged abused child was used as the excuse to issue search warrants for the entire FLDS community, the herding of all the women and children (the count is over 500 at this time) like animals, and the confiscation of all cellular telephones from those who remained. The government claims child abuse, I claim religious intolerance typical of many areas of the South, particularly Texas.

These holier-than-thou Texans accuse their victims of polygamy, which in the past was not just a part of the Mormon faith, but of the entire Judeo-Christian community. (The correct expression, by the way, is actually "polygyny", since none of the women in these cases ever seem to have multiple husbands.) Solomon, King of Israel, and other biblical figures practiced polygyny. According to Wikipedia, Hebrew scriptures document approximately forty polygynists, including such prominent figures as Abraham, Jacob, Esau, and David. Even Martin Luther condoned polygyny in certain circumstances, saying he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture."

Complaints against the FLDS also include arranged, or involuntary marriages, another practice which—whether we like it or approve of it, or not, today—dates back dozens of centuries in Western Civilization, most commonly in royal families, and is still a part of other "advanced" civilizations as this is written. How many of us know an Indian student or professor who (like Apu in The Simpsons) went home to visit his family, only to be saddled with a wife he didn't want?

Lastly, and most effectively, the government attacks the FLDS for the ages of the girls being married. Such an attack sidetracked the career of rock star Jerry Lee Lewis, when British tabloids exposed the age of his second wife Myra (she was 13, and Lewis' first cousin). A little research reveals that Priscilla Beaulieu was pretty young—14—when she began dating Elvis, and Shakespeare tells us that Juliet, the better half of the most famous of all fictional couples, was also 14.

Although we do not necessarily condone such practices—forcing anybody to marry anybody else violates the Zero Aggression Principle, as does the involuntary consummation of such a marriage—they are certainly no reason for the FLDS to be singled out by the jackbooted thugs. The charges leveled at them are the same as those of which the Branch Davidians were accused. There is no more reason to take them at face value in 2008 than there was in 1993. In such cases government is the demonstrable liar and mass-killer. The same cannot be said of its victims.

by L. Lawrence Baird
bairdco@aol.com
with L. Neil Smith
lneil@netzero.com

[FWiedner]

What has observably happened is that an unpopular minority has been singled out for being "different".

Here we have a group of people who live in a fashion out of step with contemporary society and who have moved into a small community to practice their faith and live live their life as free people.

They raise their families, grow crops, have a couple of small income generating enterprises, and they do not send their children to the public school.

...and there we arrive at the crux of the issue.

Without a regular and scheduled access to the children, the local school district cannot profit from the body count and the state cannot indoctrinate them to a preferred mind set.

The state has violated the human and constitutional rights of these people to live their lives and raise their children as they see fit. Their religion has been trampled, their children kidnapped, their character smeared in the media, their home invaded by armed thugs and assorted bureacratic weasels, all based on a statement that may or may not have been made by a person that may or may not exist.

IMO, This a a witch hunt. It is a legal fishing expedition. This is the state of Texas cooperating with federal authorities to oppress the freedom of a community of American citizens who are living in their historically preferred and practiced way of life.

If someone within the community has been abused, would it not have made more sense to approach that individual and their alleged individual abuser about the accusations rather than to displace an entire commmunity of people by putting them into a concentration camp, there to begin poisoning and sexually abusing their children in order to coerce them into fabricating a lie to support the state espoused version of events?

This whole event is a (another) black stain upon the hopes and dreams of all previous generations of freedom loving Americans.

[El Mac]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

[Old Ironsights]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

[JohnnyReb]

But El Mac, I don't have a problem with different views and like to exchange information.

However, help me see your point of view:

You call them pedophiles- if that were true then why doesn't the state make that case? That word has not even been used, only polygamy.

One phone call to the cops- based on this info. they are holding 416 children without warrants or due process?

If you want to make something illegal then do so through the legislative process, that is how the system works..... But don't let the government use the threat of force to impose a bureaucrats view or personal sense of proper conduct.

I don't know these people but remember: what the government can do to one, they can do to all.

The main reason I posted this subject on this forum is because it shows the same tactics used to limit the rights allowed under the 2nd Amendment. Gun ownership offends some people's sensibilities: the idea that one would use force against another person; the fact that another person possesses an instrument of potential violence; the fact that another may terminate the life of a living creature; etc.
These are opinions, emotional responses and prehaps even moral positions; but they should not serve as the basis for "legal" use of force by the government.

Can you see the causal connection?

[Rebel1972]

oops

[Rebel1972]

[quote="
The main reason I posted this subject on this forum is because it shows the same tactics used to limit the rights allowed under the 2nd Amendment. Gun ownership offends some people's sensibilities: the idea that one would use force against another person; the fact that another person possesses an instrument of potential violence; the fact that another may terminate the life of a living creature; etc.
These are opinions, emotional responses and prehaps even moral positions; but they should not serve as the basis for "legal" use of force by the government.

Can you see the causal connection?[/quote]
This is exactly what I have been thinking.The media uses their power to repeat something until it is true.Remember the killdozer posts last week?

[El Mac]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

Negative. I've not convicted anyone. I've simply agreed with the actions of the State of Texas in temporarily shutting down this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations. Until they actually are convicted, this is just a temporary setback for the FLDS child lovers.

[Rebel1972]

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

[ursavus.elemensis]

These FLDS folks have problems. They've got PR problems. And, they've got a closely-related problem with how they get around. Those problems have resulted in this search-and-seizure in El-Do. See, what they need to do is to go around everywhere in black horse-drawn buggies. If you do that, you can call it religion, people will call you "quaint" and "plain" and then you can do whatever the heck you want, marry whomever you want, treat kids and farm animals poorly, grow tobacco as your main cash crop even though you're supposed to have some sort of monopoly on piety, run literally thousands of puppy mills, etc. And then the whole world will come and make cutesy little picture postcards of your quaintly-clad kids poking their heads out the back window of the buggies, and they'll buy your pies and shop at your quilt stores and they will ignore the unspeakable cruelty of your ways. See, it's all a matter of Public Relations and transportation.

[JohnnyReb]

These FLDS folks have problems. They've got PR problems. And, they've got a closely-related problem with how they get around. Those problems have resulted in this search-and-seizure in El-Do. See, what they need to do is to go around everywhere in black horse-drawn buggies. If you do that, you can call it religion, people will call you "quaint" and "plain" and then you can do whatever the heck you want, marry whomever you want, treat kids and farm animals poorly, grow tobacco as your main cash crop even though you're supposed to have some sort of monopoly on piety, run literally thousands of puppy mills, etc. And then the whole world will come and make cutesy little picture postcards of your quaintly-clad kids poking their heads out the back window of the buggies, and they'll buy your pies and shop at your quilt stores and they will ignore the unspeakable cruelty of your ways. See, it's all a matter of Public Relations and transportation.

Wow, I am interested. Seeing that you are from Pa, is this first hand information?

[Old Ironsights]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

Negative. I've not convicted anyone. I've simply agreed with the actions of the State of Texas in temporarily shutting down this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations. Until they actually are convicted, this is just a temporary setback for the FLDS child lovers.

You are convicting with your words, based upon a lone, anonymous telephone call and MainStreetMedia Blather.

Let me refer you to a little story about another "peadophiliac cult" deal from a few years ago - where a teen was convinced/coerced to lie.

The Wenatchee Sex Ring case/hoax put several people in jail, destroyed a Church, and ruined the lives of more than 43 people. About the only thing that didn't happen was armed assaults by squads of Government types.

http://search.nwsource.com/search?from= ... pe=network
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wenatche.htm

After Waco, don't you think a little hard evidence would be prudent?

[El Mac]

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Perhaps. That was then. Today, we know better.

[Old Ironsights]

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Perhaps. That was then. Today, we know better.

So any form of government abuse/violence is OK so long as we "do it for the children"... whether it's true or not?

[Haycock]

Negative. I've not convicted anyone. I've simply agreed with the actions of the State of Texas in temporarily shutting down this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations. Until they actually are convicted, this is just a temporary setback for the FLDS child lovers.

100% agree with El Mac on this one.

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Was it not common until the second half of the last century for men to own other men?

Dangerous times we are in. Dark paths we walk.

Didn't Yoda say that first? Or maybe it was Winston Churchill...


Haycock

[Old Ironsights]

FWIW, I'd like to see a biblical proscription anywhere against any of the things this "church" is ACCUSED of doing...

[El Mac]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

Negative. I've not convicted anyone. I've simply agreed with the actions of the State of Texas in temporarily shutting down this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations. Until they actually are convicted, this is just a temporary setback for the FLDS child lovers.

You are convicting with your words, based upon a lone, anonymous telephone call and MainStreetMedia Blather.

Let me refer you to a little story about another "peadophiliac cult" deal from a few years ago - where a teen was convinced/coerced to lie.

The Wenatchee Sex Ring case/hoax put several people in jail, destroyed a Church, and ruined the lives of more than 43 people. About the only thing that didn't happen was armed assaults by squads of Government types.

http://search.nwsource.com/search?from= ... pe=network
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wenatche.htm

After Waco, don't you think a little hard evidence would be prudent?

I may have convicted with my words, as you say. But that means nothing. I have my beliefs. The real convictions come from the courts. And time will tell as to what they say... For all you know, the State AG may come out with an apology and cry "King's X" before its all over with.

Shall I show you obituaries of children abused, raped and tortured because no one had the balls to stop the thugs? You cite one example and I can cite thousands.

As for Waco, that has no bearing on this case. Two different things and two different outcomes. However, I can well imagine this one would or could have turned out differently if the head cultist - Warren Jeffs - hadn't been incarcerated for child rape at the time.

[sore shoulder]

...this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations.

Do you have some evidence to prove those allegations? If not, that would be considered slander. How about we say as an example I'm a Protestant, and I find out your a Catholic and I dont like Catholics. I also find out your distant cousin, who is also a Catholic, is a convicted sex offender, so I start telling folks you are a child molester. Since all the folks I'm telling are also Protestants, they decide they believe me, without ever seeing or hearing any evidence other than rumor.

What makes these people a cult? The fact that they beleive the same and so have decided to live in close proximity? How many areas of our country were settled in the same fashion?

[Haycock]

FWIW, I'd like to see a biblical proscription anywhere against any of the things this "church" is ACCUSED of doing...

I support your insistence that the accusations be proven, but there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence and the LEOs had been watching them for a long while and waiting for a go-signal, which finally came from one, brave (allegedly) abused young girl.

Personally, I'm glad they erred on the side of caution.

Also... I may be going out on a limb here, but per your comment I'm pretty sure that most contemporary theological interpretation frowns on pedophilia......


Haycock

[El Mac]

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Perhaps. That was then. Today, we know better.

So any form of government abuse/violence is OK so long as we "do it for the children"... whether it's true or not?

Don't elevate this beyond what it is...

[El Mac]

...this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations.

Do you have some evidence to prove those allegations?

No, nor do I need to provide it here to you or anyone else. Let the courts do their job.

What makes these people a cult? The fact that they beleive the same and so have decided to live in close proximity? How many areas of our country were settled in the same fashion?

My definition? Hmmm....brainwashing little kids into becoming sex toys and baby factories for one thing. Erecting fences around 'temples' for another. Controlling access to all media (tv, newspapers, books, etc) for another. (Funny, most of you guys would be screaming to high heaven here if the "gov't" came into your houses and started unplugging computers, taking away your books, and so on...but its ok for these pimps to do it?) Tsk tsk....

[Rebel1972]

100% agree with El Mac on this one.

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Was it not common until the second half of the last century for men to own other men?


Haycock

Nope ,You're one century off. What I'm getting at is this, it is getting to the point now that a lot of people see hunters and shooters in the same light,(ie)We are more civilized now.You can get your meat at the store.You can call the police when your life is threatened etc.etc.

[Old Ironsights]

...My definition? Hmmm....brainwashing little kids into becoming sex toys and baby factories for one thing.

PROOF PLEASE. All there is thus far is Media Spin - and anti-Morman bias apparantly...

Remember: ALL ALLEGATIONS OF SEX CRIMES IN THE DAVIDIAN CASE WERE PROVEN TO BE FALSE - AND THAT WAS THEIR SOLE "REASON" FOR LAYING SEIGE TO THE COMPOUND.

Erecting fences around 'temples' for another.

And now it's a crime to secure your private property?

Controlling access to all media (tv, newspapers, books, etc) for another. (Funny, most of you guys would be screaming to high heaven here if the "gov't" came into your houses and started unplugging computers, taking away your books, and so on...but its ok for these pimps to do it?) Tsk tsk....

Ever been to Amish Country?

[JohnnyReb]

Rebel seems to bring the matter back to the point I was making originally (maybe we are cousins?)

Mac, are you a social worker? Reason I ask is that your arguments seem to come from a personal perspective. They also sound very similar to statements made in proceedings where the State has removed children and I have defended the parents.

[Old Ironsights]

...
Nope ,You're one century off. What I'm getting at is this, it is getting to the point now that a lot of people see hunters and shooters in the same light,(ie)We are more civilized now.You can get your meat at the store.You can call the police when your life is threatened etc.etc.

Can I get an "amen"? (a nice Hebrew word that...)

What other actions are the Government going to declare to be no longer socially acceptable?

[Old Ironsights]

Was it not common until the middle of the last century for girls to get married at ages younger than 18?

Perhaps. That was then. Today, we know better.

So any form of government abuse/violence is OK so long as we "do it for the children"... whether it's true or not?

Don't elevate this beyond what it is...

I'm not. It is EXACTLY what it is.

I've seen it done. In Wenatchee and Waco among other places. A too zealous Social Worker and complicient Government go after a marginalized group. Makes them look good until people die &/or they lose a $3Mil lawsuit for malfesance.

Let's repost this again:

It's important to understand that the Branch Davidian raid was carried out on the "strength" of a perjured (criminally falsified) affidavit, and that no warrant was ever presented before or during the government assault. History now repeats itself in the Texas Bible Belt. An alleged phone call from an alleged abused child was used as the excuse to issue search warrants for the entire FLDS community, the herding of all the women and children (the count is over 500 at this time) like animals, and the confiscation of all cellular telephones from those who remained. The government claims child abuse, I claim religious intolerance typical of many areas of the South, particularly Texas.

These holier-than-thou Texans accuse their victims of polygamy, which in the past was not just a part of the Mormon faith, but of the entire Judeo-Christian community. (The correct expression, by the way, is actually "polygyny", since none of the women in these cases ever seem to have multiple husbands.) Solomon, King of Israel, and other biblical figures practiced polygyny. According to Wikipedia, Hebrew scriptures document approximately forty polygynists, including such prominent figures as Abraham, Jacob, Esau, and David. Even Martin Luther condoned polygyny in certain circumstances, saying he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture."

Complaints against the FLDS also include arranged, or involuntary marriages, another practice which—whether we like it or approve of it, or not, today—dates back dozens of centuries in Western Civilization, most commonly in royal families, and is still a part of other "advanced" civilizations as this is written. How many of us know an Indian student or professor who (like Apu in The Simpsons) went home to visit his family, only to be saddled with a wife he didn't want?

Lastly, and most effectively, the government attacks the FLDS for the ages of the girls being married. Such an attack sidetracked the career of rock star Jerry Lee Lewis, when British tabloids exposed the age of his second wife Myra (she was 13, and Lewis' first cousin). A little research reveals that Priscilla Beaulieu was pretty young—14—when she began dating Elvis, and Shakespeare tells us that Juliet, the better half of the most famous of all fictional couples, was also 14.

Although we do not necessarily condone such practices—forcing anybody to marry anybody else violates the Zero Aggression Principle, as does the involuntary consummation of such a marriage—they are certainly no reason for the FLDS to be singled out by the jackbooted thugs. The charges leveled at them are the same as those of which the Branch Davidians were accused. There is no more reason to take them at face value in 2008 than there was in 1993. In such cases government is the demonstrable liar and mass-killer. The same cannot be said of its victims.

[El Mac]

Again, you are confusing Waco with the current FLDS situation. Two different cases handled very differently.

I don't know anything about the Amish so I'll decline to comment. Having said that, I doubt very seriously they condone pedophilia.

No...I'm quite far removed from being a social worker! Honestly though, that made me chuckle.

Like I said before, I realize I'm in the minority. But I'm not going to defend real criminal elements in our society in the misguided belief that all lawbreakers should get a pass because its the hated government that is after them...because after all, we are all against the government, right? And that should make us bloodbrothers with the thugs right?

No, I'm not worried that someone might make me into a criminal for standing for the 2A. At least not yet. When and if that time comes, well so be it. Until then, criminals can eat it...especially the kind that prey on kids.

[El Mac]

Old Ironsights,

Why don't you just admit you are a nihlistic anarchist? All government is BAD, even those elected by free men. Right? Or perhaps, you are a member of the FLDS?

Or do you just want all court actions and law enforcement operations run through YOUR department to get the final approval?

[Old Ironsights]

Again, you are confusing Waco with the current FLDS situation. Two different cases handled very differently.

Wrong. See above.

No, I'm not worried that someone might make me into a criminal for standing for the 2A. At least not yet. When and if that time comes, well so be it. Until then, criminals can eat it...especially the kind that prey on kids.

And until they are CONVICTED you have no right to call them paedofiles/molestors or whatever. Judge Not. You do not KNOW, you ony believe the MSM.

[JohnnyReb]

Following along with Rebel and Old Ironsights...
The law is made up of precedents.... "In the interest of children" "It is only an inconvenience" are both arguments made by the gun control crowd. Give them a toehold in this matter of the "polygamist" in Texas, and they can carry the precedence forward through other amendments to the constitution.

[El Mac]

You see, I CAN call them anything. This is still a free country. But it means NOTHING until a court has decided...so let them do their job.

That is, unless you are worried the truth will come out??? Hmmm.....

[Old Ironsights]

Old Ironsights,

Why don't you just admit you are a nihlistic anarchist? All government is BAD, even those elected by free men. Right? Or perhaps, you are a member of the FLDS?

Thanks for the insults.

I'm a Libertarian, thank you. And nowhere near an FLDS member, or even a Mormon.

But for what it is worth, Government IS, by in large BAD. That's why the Founders feard it and wanted it to be SMALL and WEAK.

Or do you just want all court actions and law enforcement operations run through YOUR department to get the final approval?

No, unlike many woh think they have all the answers, authority and power, I have no such delusions. I only advocate FREEDOM.

[Old Ironsights]

You see, I CAN call them anything. This is still a free country. But it means NOTHING until a court has decided...so let them do their job.

That is, unless you are worried the truth will come out??? Hmmm.....

I don't think I'm the one with "issues" here...

[sore shoulder]

...this den of cultist pedophilia whilst they get to the bottom of the allegations.

Do you have some evidence to prove those allegations?

No, nor do I need to provide it here to you or anyone else. Let the courts do their job.

What makes these people a cult? The fact that they beleive the same and so have decided to live in close proximity? How many areas of our country were settled in the same fashion?

My definition? Hmmm....brainwashing little kids into becoming sex toys and baby factories for one thing. Erecting fences around 'temples' for another. Controlling access to all media (tv, newspapers, books, etc) for another. (Funny, most of you guys would be screaming to high heaven here if the "gov't" came into your houses and started unplugging computers, taking away your books, and so on...but its ok for these pimps to do it?) Tsk tsk....

So you admit that you have made up your mind without having any facts to back it up. You have no evidence to support any of the nasty names you just called those people that you dont know, dont live near, (according to your location) and you dont care, and you freely admit all of this. Wow. You are exactly the type of people the prosecutor will want on his/her jury, and exactly the type that should not be. That has to be the most closed minded, unfounded opinion I have seen on the internet, by far. You are convicting them solely on what you have heard in the media.

Why does putting a fence around the temple and restricting media access make them a cult? I've read a lot of definitions of cults, and I've missed that one. Many religions are very private and restrict access, which is their right. In your thought process, if you were to fence in your property, tell the media they can not come into your living room, and not let them talk to your children, you are a cult.

As to what I higlighted in bold above, I gauruntee if you make allegations in that manner often, you are going to end up in the wrong end of the courtroom with a liable and slander suit against you. Then you will full well know what it means to let the courts decide.

[JohnnyReb]

Again, you are confusing Waco with the current FLDS situation. Two different cases handled very differently.

I don't know anything about the Amish so I'll decline to comment. Having said that, I doubt very seriously they condone pedophilia.

No...I'm quite far removed from being a social worker! Honestly though, that made me chuckle.

Like I said before, I realize I'm in the minority. But I'm not going to defend real criminal elements in our society in the misguided belief that all lawbreakers should get a pass because its the hated government that is after them...because after all, we are all against the government, right? And that should make us bloodbrothers with the thugs right?

No, I'm not worried that someone might make me into a criminal for standing for the 2A. At least not yet. When and if that time comes, well so be it. Until then, criminals can eat it...especially the kind that prey on kids.

Mac. I can personally relate the effect of over zealous government activity.
Families, reputations, careers destroyed by careless and warrantless conduct by law enforcement and social workers.

You have it backwards. Let the government intrude and pry at will in the interest of public policy.... err on the side of the enforcers, who is it going to hurt?

I was directly involved the Richard Jewel, Olympic Bomber fiasco, he was hounded relentlessly by law enforcement and the media. Of course, he did not DO IT. He was actually a hero who saved alot of lives in Atlanta.
It was proven that the guy in NC planted the bomb as well as the bombing of some abortion clinics.

Richard Jewel died a broken man..... divorced and unemployable, he was forever more looked at with distrust and suspicion.

So what if the government destroys the reputation of a few Texans...who cares? so what if the kids are forever distrustful of their parents? Afraid of law enforcement and the government in general?
The government MEANT well.....

The benefit of the doubt must go with the individual(s) because of the great power and effect of governmental influence.

[El Mac]

I keep saying this...my opinion of them is meanlingless. I freely admit that. I'm willing to let the courts decide the outcome. But in the meantime, even the LDS has disavowed the FLDS.

I doubt you are so thin-skinned OI that my questions insulted you. Now if I had come out and actually called you those things, you'd have a case. But I didn't. I asked questions.

So...the law isn't supposed to intrude in anyone's business. And no one can ever be investigated or convicted. Ever. Thats what I'm hearing you say. That is anarchist and nihilistic.. Check it out in a dictionary.

[Rebel1972]

Just look at the ground the global warming people have gained in the last couple of years on unfounded,unproven science .

[piller]

The news here in Texas is saying that some of the pregnant young girls are going to be DNA tested to see who the father is. I have reservations about all of this being done based on a phone call. Should there not have been an investigation done without alerting the media? I have some firsthand experience with the tactics of the Child Protective Services of Texas. They are often used as a way to harass others without any repercussions to the one who called in a false report. Filing a false report is a felony, but there is not one case I know of where someone was prosecuted for it. If CPS could face consequences for its actions, then we probably would not be all talking about it right now as they would have kept this out of the media until they were sure.

[El Mac]

So, we are frozen in our tracks due to "analysis paralysis"...and fear because, it might be the wrong thing. Maybe we should just sit idly by and suck our thumbs as the world whizzes by?

[C. Cash]

I see I'm in the minority. I'm good with that.

I have yet to see any Schutzenstaffel tactics in this case. Except of course by the brainwashing pedophiles. They are pretty good when it comes to picking on kids. Now we get to see how well they stack up against the citizens of Texas in a court of law.

Mac - before you convict someone, you need proof. You have convicted them without proof, and that is sad.

OI,
Conversely, aren't some convicting law enforcement before they have the proof against them? I don't think any of us know enough yet do we? These are some sick puppies based on the testimony of a number of women/girls who have escaped from Jeff's compounds. If these men are having sex(forced or no, doesn't mater) in my country with 12- 14 year olds then they need to go away. It's rape either way. Time will give us more info and hopefully we can all look at it objectively, before we convict either side.

[sore shoulder]

So, we are frozen in our tracks due to "analysis paralysis"...and fear because, it might be the wrong thing. Maybe we should just sit idly by and suck our thumbs as the world whizzes by?

Ever heard of the Fourth Amendment?

I'm also curious how the LDS ostracising them makes any difference. If you think that carries any weight, then you must believe Protestants are bad because they were ostracised by the Catholics, called heretics, and hunted down and murdered. Oh, in order to facilitate this, the Catholics made up all kinds of stories about those who would not follow thier decreed practices. They labeled them witches and told stories that the children had 2 rows of black teeth.

The earliest Waldensians believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures.[1] The sect originated in the late 12th century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyon, who gave away his property around 1177 and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection.[1]

In 1179, they went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching without authorization from the local clergy.[7] They disobeyed and began to preach according to their own understanding of scripture. Seen by the Roman Catholic Church as unorthodox, they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.[7] In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg[attribution needed], beginning several centuries of persecution that nearly destroyed the sect. Part of their legacy is recognized as works of the writer Henri Arnaud. The Waldensian Church of Italy has survived to the present day.

[Haycock]

...
Nope ,You're one century off. What I'm getting at is this, it is getting to the point now that a lot of people see hunters and shooters in the same light,(ie)We are more civilized now.You can get your meat at the store.You can call the police when your life is threatened etc.etc.

Can I get an "amen"? (a nice Hebrew word that...)

What other actions are the Government going to declare to be no longer socially acceptable?

Okay... fair point on the perception-of-hunters front...

Haycock

[JohnnyReb]

I keep saying this...my opinion of them is meanlingless. I freely admit that. I'm willing to let the courts decide the outcome. But in the meantime, even the LDS has disavowed the FLDS.

I doubt you are so thin-skinned OI that my questions insulted you. Now if I had come out and actually called you those things, you'd have a case. But I didn't. I asked questions.

So...the law isn't supposed to intrude in anyone's business. And no one can ever be investigated or convicted. Ever. Thats what I'm hearing you say. That is anarchist and nihilistic.. Check it out in a dictionary.

I agree that all of our opinions are meaningless. The point I am trying to make is that the law should follow the law.....not some feeling, prediction, bruising of sensibilities. IT IS WRONG to hold 416 children for more than 10 days without charging the parents of a crime or having provided evidence under due process of some neglect, etc.
You seem to think that no harm is done.... let the courts decide.
The fact this can happen IS THE HARM.
Charge the parents, make specific allegations of wrongdoing!! Give them a chance to respond.... But this situation is in a state of limbo because the State has more firepower. Under the law, the kids have the right to go home but the parents don't have the force necessary to enforce the law.
This is my point.... Honestly and sincerely Mac, that does not bother you?