Pyrodex???

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:49 am

Is anybody using much Pyrodex these days? I just found a pound of it in the back of all my powders. I was thinking I might burn it up shooting my .30-30 a bit. I was wondering if anybody had a favorite load or any suggestions for a 150 gr. bullet? The Pyrodex web site isn't any help.

Thanks

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:08 am

I bought a pound of it when I got my ML. I don't reload though, so, I can't help ya there.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:57 am

I wouldn't bother with that. I just have a gut feeling that it would be a wasted effort.

I use Pyrodex in my New Englander. I think it is the best of the BP subs producing like velocities with like charges.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:13 am

Not to long ago there was an article written in American Rifleman testing 'real' black powder and a bunch of substitutes...the conclusion was that even though Pyrodex is the oldest sub, it still has not been beaten in regards to pressure vs velocity. They even concluded that the best Swiss original was not necessarily better...unless you are an 'elitist'.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:14 am

Two Thoughts on yer topic:

The .30-30 really doesn't have enough case volume to perform with BP or any of the subs, except... maybe... Triple 7. Any perform I got with my experiments in that area were best described as "anemic".

Pyrodex... I'll be kind. The last bit I found, I loaded up in some shotshells, and got rid of it that way. Performance was just fine for CAS, as the farthest targets around around 7 yards. And, I clean my guns IMMEDIATELY AFTER USE. I have not found a lube that keeps Pyrodex fouling soft for cartridge use. Plus, I've read reports that if not cleaned immediately, it can be deadly on bores. As in rifled barrels, not boars as in pigs, or bores, like me.

But... have at it, if you wanna see for yourself. Any 150 gr. bullet will do... It don't even have to be round, or have shape to its nose... they ain't gonna go anywhere in a hurry, nor will they be especially accurate. Personally, I'd rather drop the bullet back in the furnance than shoot with Pyro.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:26 am

Loading Pyrodex is just like loading black powder in that you can't leave any space in the case. In other words, you load the case full to where seating the bullet will compress the charge. You could try experimenting with some kind of filler I suppose. I've never heard of anyone using Pyrodex in a bottle neck cartridge - but I'm sure some have. And as mentioned, it's very corrosive, so proper cleaning and such must be done ASAP after your range session. Me? I'd either shoot it in a ML or in a 45 colt or similar.

blackhawk44 · Post by **blackhawk44** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:20 pm

Remember to clean and then next day, clean again. Check every cranny. Far more corrosive effects than real black.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:42 pm

I would not load Pyrodex in a 30-30. It's a waste of components.
As for the corrosive effect of that stuff I will testify to it. I had a partial pound of it and loaded it in my .45 Colt ammo. Shot it out of my OM BH. Cleaned it that same day as I would have cleaned black powder. In other words, hot soap and water till it was CLEAN. Then I oiled it. I didn't check the gun for a while and when I did the chambers and bore were pitted.

I will never buy Pyrodex again for that reason. And if I found some like you did, I'd wait till the 4 of July, then take it some where safe and burn it.

Joe

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:13 pm

I feel your efforts will be wasted friend but you do what you wish.
I use it in my M/L shotgun and load 12g shells with it. I shoot game birds with both and it is a hoot. The crtridge shot gun is a doddle to clean with a boiled kettle of water and some home made olive oil/beeswax lube. When the M/L is used regular in the autumn I just paste the same lube down the bores and around the nipples and have no problems with rust.
If you do go ahead completly remove any trace of mineral oils from the gun and coat well with a natural lube, the action inside too, use a hair dryer to get the grease to flow through the action. With the same lube try to use a grease cookie under the bullet, this will coat the bore and help to prevent rusting if you miss a spot after cleaning. You will know if the cookie is working apart from decent accuracy by a wet star on the muzzle. Wads for shotguns can be lubed for bore protection if it is a worry, just use a natural fat/oil other than mineral based.
As a side note I use this type of lube to wipe over all my guns now and get no rust and it is better for skin

Hope this helps.
Nath.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:37 pm

With 777 out there.......I'll not need anymore Pyrodex...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:36 pm

Pyrodex generally needs the stuff mashed out of it to work well in cartridges.
Fill your case to the mouth with the pyro, then seat a 31 cal revolver wad, and then your bullet.Don't let the base of the bullet get past the bottom of the neck. Make sure the bullet has a good bp lube.
When you get thru don't forget to clean both the gun and the cases as that stuff is probably more corrosive than black.

I got some pretty fair results shooting goex 3f with a 180 gr bullet in the 30-30,but it isn't anything I'ld want to do on a regular basis.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:17 pm

Man, the timing of this thread is amazing. I've been looking into the newest of the BP substitutes for my 43 Mauser and found this stuff:

http://www.magkor.com/faqs.html

and

http://randywakeman.com/blackmag3.htm

The problem for me is I would need some load data for the 45-70 to have some sort of starting point for my 43 Mauser. The distributor said it is completely safe to use in conventional powder measures, and this was confirmed by Mic McPherson (no electrostatic properties). I may try it if I can find some load data, but its hard to be the smokeless loads we are using.

I would completely steer clear of Pyrodex and anything but Triple 7, which has some minor drawbacks.

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:42 pm

Wow, more coincidence. This reply just came to my email:

Thank You for your patience!

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Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:33 am

Well lets see.. the fourth of July is how far off???

Maybe the best way to rid the world of it. I don't know where this stuff came from. I know I didn't buy it.

Maybe I should buy a cannon just for the occasion?

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:48 am

I love to use pyrodex in my ML. However, IMO, it has no useful purpose in a modern rifle that is capable of using smokeless powder.

coyote nose · Post by **coyote nose** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:04 pm

I wonder if this corrosive thing is dependent upon where you live? ie: humidity or lack of it. I live in humid Ohio and find pyrodex is FAR LESS corrosive than black. It is the powder of choice in my Dads 1892 44-40, my 1873 32-20, a trapdoor 45-70, a Chapparal 1876 45-75 and a winchester 94 in 38-55. In my muzzleloader i have let it go a full day before cleaning with no ill effects (not recommending this tho...). I clean once, with either a few patches of black solve or Windex with vinegar, then a few patches of plain water, then several dry patches. Then i run an oil mop down the bore. have let the guns sit up to a year before firing again w/o a problem. I do run a mop with alcohol thru the bore before heading out to the range to remove all oil before shooting though. Interesting how different shooters have different results with these things. In fact, i gave up completley on black powder...the stuff just gums up the works of my guns and I am left with an inoperative gun on my hands at the range or in the field.

junkbug · Post by **junkbug** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:08 am

I have used Pyrodex in both a replica Schofield in 44-40, and a Shiloh Sharps carbine in 50-70.

With the revolver, I did this before I had any other experience with black powder, or subtitutes, in cartridge firearms. I loaded enough powder to require 1/8" compression, with a commercial cast cowboy action syle bullet, with smokeless lube.

It fouled horribly, with both powder residue, and lead shavings. The only way I got through the box of 50 was to pour corn oil on the base pin/cylinder area, and brush the breech and lock periodically with a bore brush. I cleaned it like I was shooting .303 surplus out of an Enfield, (kept cheching for three days), but still later found pitting on the base pin. At least it is where I can't see it (most of the time). So much for that experiment.

In the Sharps, I used it with a cast bullet lubed with Thompson Center "Bore Butter". This worked better, but still left heavy powder fouling. This time I took it apart and re-cleaned it for three days in a row, so I did not get pitting. I would use it again in the Shiloh, but only if I was out of any other real or substitute black powder.

Using a proper soft black powder lubricant like SPG, Black Magic, or even Bore Butter is essential. And clean EVERYWHERE where the powder smoke and residue can touch and/or collect; for three days in a row. Use a black powder solvent and preservative, keep it free of petroleum based oil while firing with Pyrodex.

It will probably foul heavily in a 30-30, even with the right lube. Accuracy will probably be lackluster. But with enough attention to detail, and obsessive cleaning, it may prove interesting.

Sean

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:16 pm

Rusty: I donâ€™t think that .30-30 bore size is very conducive for either BP or the various BP substitutes.

More than a few years ago, I tried BP in a .30-30 & it didnâ€™t work due to fouling. Since then others who I know have tried BP & some of the BP substitutes had the same results.

The .30-30 might be one of those rounds which would benefit from BP Duplex load to negate the effects of the BP fouling.

Myself, I wish the powder manufacturers would re-introduce one of the late 19th - early 20th century BP substitute powders -- â€œKingâ€™s Semi-Smokelessâ€œ, â€œWinchester Lesmokâ€

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:22 pm

My experience with Pyrodex has been very good in my .44-40 and .45 Colt rifles. Very good accuracy over 50 rounds (most I've shot at one time) using NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax for lube.

I have also tried it in the .30-30 and it worked aok although groups were 2x the size of smokeless. Velocity was 1,325 f.p.s. under a 170 gr. cast bullet.

Yes, Pyrodex is corrosive since it contains chlorate (chlorate priming was used in .30-06 corrosive ammunition). Since I can be a bit lazy, I shot smokeless ammunition after a Pyrodex session and then cleaned the barrel as I would after shooting smokeless cartridges. That worked fine. No problems at all....thankfully.

w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:33 pm

Ray,
[quote]Myself, I wish the powder manufacturers would re-introduce one of the late 19th - early 20th century BP substitute powders -- â€œKingâ€™s Semi-Smokelessâ€œ, â€œWinchester Lesmokâ€

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Ray, they have updated the website since I originally posted the link. It does appear to be an expensive powder but to be fair, the hazmat fees are standard for any powder you buy over the internet. Buy enough, and the prices are reasonable. For me, this usually means a minimum of 4 lbs of smokeless powder. I would have to buy more of the Black Mag stuff to make it worthwhile, but they do offer their pre-packaged loads that are shipped in a clamshell and require no hazmat fee. The latter would be useful for load development to see if it is worthwhile.

http://www.mdm-muzzleloaders.com/Mercha ... Code=LOADS

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:58 pm

Tutt why is it you're fiddle faddlin around loading that ol gun with everything under the sun except for the one powder it was designed and built around?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:38 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Tutt why is it you're fiddle faddlin around loading that ol gun with everything under the sun except for the one powder it was designed and built around?

+1

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:50 pm

Guys, a number of reasons actually. One, BP is a lot more volitile than smokeless. My reloading bench is actually in the condo I rent and is carpeted and I just don't want a bunch of BP around that can react to static discharge. 2) It fouls after only a few shots. 3) And most of all, its corrosive as Heck. My barrel already has some mild pitting, the receiver steel is "in the white" and I don't want to risk anymore damage to her. This new stuff is supposed to be many times less corrosive, less prone to fouling, not sensitive to static electricity and more powerful than anything on the market (BP or substitute), thus my interest in it.

After doing some research, it's sounding like none of the BP substitutes have proven to be as accurate (at least they haven't been yet-Black Mag 3 is a little unproven) as BP in an unfouled barrel. The smokeless loads that were given to me do perform very well, but are still a little powder position sensitive. The specialized powder dispensers for BP or a volume loaded substitute are expensive. And as was pointed out, Black Mag 3 is very expensive (prices weren't listed when I originally posted). So, the chances of me trying the stuff are diminshing. If I had disposable income, it would be fun to try.

I hope that some of this makes sense.

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:34 pm

As long as you don't drop your cigarette butts into the bp, you're not likely to have any problems loading black.
Lots of folks drop bp charges from planejane powder measures.
Pyrodex is just as corrosive as bp, APP and others attack the brass so you must clean brass just as with shooting bp.
Fowling out can be anything from not enough powder, or the wrong size of powder, to a not so good bullet with miserable lube.

Ordering bp from places like grafs you can get bp as cheap or cheaper than you can the fakey stuff from the local dealers.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:57 pm

I load BP in my .45 Colts on the Dillon 550B, load 12 gauge on the MEC 600 Jr, and load my .45-70 & .40-90SBN on the RCBS Jr.II. Sometimes I run them thru the RCBS powder measure, other times I dump powder from the can into a volume measure, then drop into the case. Been doing so since about 1986. Haven't blown anything up, yet!

Did have one spill, contaminated some smokeless with BP. So... being somewhat ignorant, I dumped a pile in the middle of my garage, ran a trail of the same stuff back about 10 feet, and lit a match. When unrestrained, BP just WHOOOSHes, and creates a million times its volume in smoke! It only takes about 100 grains of BP to fill an average sized double car garage with smoke!

I think it took over an hour for the smoke to clear out!

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:33 pm

Griff and Don, thanks for the replies. Very interesting. I've done enough research at present to substantiate the need for a volume powder measure to get loads more accurate with BP or a substitute than what we are currently doing with smokeless powder in my 11mm Mauser. Loading for BP is just a different animal than smokeless, but I'm lucky to have some good people to consult with who can "bang a gong" at 1500 yards routinely at the Billy Dixon range.

Your posts have had an impact, and when the times comes, I will try both traditional BP and Black Mag 3 and see what works.

Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

-Tutt

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:42 pm

Tutt I don't know about the Black mag stuff, but none of the other falsies have been able to best junky ol black for pure d accuracy.

Have fun with your loading , and long range expeditions , no matter what kind of powder you're shootin.