Bighorn Armory Model 89 - 500 S&W Levergun Arrived

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:44 am

BlaineG wrote: I've shot the S&W X-Frame 500 with full house......Stout, but not as stout as a BFR with Garrette +P 45-70s

You're more of a man than I am.

My friend built hot 700 and 750 gr loads for .500 S&W. He showed me his hand and wrist after testing loads. It was swollen badly. I think it was the 700s that beat him up.

I wonder if those loads would feed and chamber in the BH M89? Probably too long and square.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:02 am

CowboyTutt wrote:
Difference is, that again, .460 factory loads and most loading data quit at about 55,000 psi, for the same reason as the .500.. DA revolver extraction gets a bit sticky beyond that pressure.. The .454 was designed for SA guns, and works well, even at full "allowable" pressure..
Buck, your my friend, but I don't understand why the difference in extraction between a "double action" and "single action" revolver? Granted the Freedom Arms revolvers are legendary for tolerating heavy 454 Casull loads but I have always attributed that to a stronger and better made cylinder?

I have a 454 Raging Bull and a S&W 460 ES "snubbie" and as long as I have had the chambers polished there have been at worst, minimal problems with extraction even with handloads from various manuals. The S&W came that way and is my favorite hand gun.

If you could elaborate some, I would be interested in knowing more about why the action results in sticky extraction and why its not related to the cylinder metallurgy and dimensions? Dick Casull is a pretty smart guy to say the least! And so are you!

I will always remember having the pleasure of shooting your P001 levergun. It really was a very accurate and easy to shoot rifle.

Regards my friend,

-Tutt

Ok... In a nutshell..

But first, to quote the Speer "Reloading Manual #14" :

Re: .460 S&W..
"The maximum average pressure set for the .460 S&W is 65,000 psi. However, if loaded close to this pressure cases may exhibit hard extraction. We held even our full-power loads to that of factory ammunition -- around 55,000 psi -- for reliable extraction. We recommend that you not try to "creep" up any loads shown here."

Re: .500 S&W Magnum..
"The maximum average pressure for the .500 S&W is 60,000 psi. However, factory ammo and most published handloads are held somewhat below this to permit reliable extraction of fired cases from double-action revolvers."

The potential problems arise from the nature of cartridge brass and the very high pressures involved.. Somewhere close to 60,000 psi, we begin to tickle the limits of plasticity and elasticity of the metal.. Somewhere just north of 60ksi, brass wants to expand to fill the available space, and loses interest in rebounding to something close to its original size or form.. Fortunately, it is contained in a suitable chamber, which limits its growth.. Yet it still wants to stretch and grow as much as possible. In a single-action revolver, the chamber and standing breech offer no "moving" parts.. The chamber walls are solid and unbroken, all the way to the rim of the cartridge.. A straight-line punch from the ejector rod should be all that's needed to knock the case free. The cylinder (chamber) wall of a double-action revolver features a cut-out for the extractor star, and then includes also the extractor star itself , with its accompanying, "built in" fits, clearances and tolerances.. When max-powered cartridges are fired, the solid head can expand somewhat, along with the case walls ahead of the web, causing the case to impinge on the star, if only just a little, effectively locking up the star.. Each succeding round has the same effect, basically "freezing" the star, or at least requiring considerably more effort to eject the fired cartridges simultaneously, which feature is the reason for swing-out cylinders..

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:15 am

...As well as whatever stickiness may result is compounded several times over when trying to extract 5 or 6 at a time, rather than as a single round at a time with the SA revolvers.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:33 pm

That was a cool post, thanks Buck!

-Tutt

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:54 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:That was a cool post, thanks Buck! -Tutt

+1

Buck: how long would a Commercial Rifle (Rossi) withstand Dick's Alaskan Polar Bear loads?

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:43 pm

Malamute wrote:...As well as whatever stickiness may result is compounded several times over when trying to extract 5 or 6 at a time, rather than as a single round at a time with the SA revolvers.

Exactly right... in a single-action revolver, or even in a lever-action rifle, you're dealing with only one cartridge at a time during extraction..

Andy.. It saddens me to hear that the forearm on that rifle has cracked.. I have seen forearms on many leverguns that have cracked from improper clamping (in a vise..), putting pressure on the weakest part of the structure.. I know that after 20,000 rounds or so, the forearm was still intact when I last saw it..

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:19 pm

It was a very short, small crack Buck, but obviously not being mine I didn't want to make it worse. It really was pleasurable to shoot and easily hit every target I pointed it at. If I were the owner, I would have definitely taken it to a gunsmith, fixed the action, and repaired/bedded the wood. That rifle deserves to be used!!!!! -Tutt

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:25 pm

I have repaired many such forearms, usually on o/u shotguns.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:42 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:
BlaineG wrote: I've shot the S&W X-Frame 500 with full house......Stout, but not as stout as a BFR with Garrette +P 45-70s
You're more of a man than I am.

My friend built hot 700 and 750 gr loads for .500 S&W. He showed me his hand and wrist after testing loads. It was swollen badly. I think it was the 700s that beat him up.

I wonder if those loads would feed and chamber in the BH M89? Probably too long and square.

I have not shot loads like that.......These were factory rounds.....A friend on the east side let me shoot his.....I had a BFR for a couple years...it was so heavy that the recoil never seemed brutal....

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:31 pm

I owned a .460 Weatherby once and I have shot a .460 S&W one time. Recoil on the rifle was bad, the pistol was MUCH WORSE. I think both the S&W .460 and .500 would make excellent brush busters in a carbine tho.

Very nice rifle.

Rob

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:45 pm

WOW!!!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:19 pm

Bighorn Post.........
I should point out that although this 'carbine' is only 36-1/4" long (3/4" shorter than my Guide Gun, and 1-1/4" shorter than my 1894 in 44 Mag), it weighs 7 lb 10 oz - so a full 10 ounces more than the Guide Gun, and 18 ounces more than the 44 Mag 1894.

So - it is NOT a 'lightweight' gun - just a 'compact' one. With one in the chamber it holds 8 rounds of 500 S&W, vs. the Guide Gun's 5 rounds of 45-70, so even with 'hot' 45-70 loads, there is more overall firepower, but not all that much per-round vs. the really heavy 45-70 loads some brave souls shoot from the Guide Guns.

Basically, it is NOT a big deal at all recoil-wise, at least compared to the Guide Gun with stout loads. Yes, you know you're shooting a 'real gun', but nothing different than a Garand 'Tanker' as far as I can tell. If you are considering one, don't let 'recoil' be the reason you don't get one.

The only 'downside' I see is the cost, but for me, it basically replaces several guns I will probably be putting in the consignment shop soon - my Guide Gun, my 500 S&W Handi-Rifle, and my 'regular' 444 Marlin (I'll keep the 'XLR' one).

Really, though it pains me to think such things, a person could 'get by' with two leverguns....

The 500 S&W Spike Driver, and a 32-20 Marlin 1894. I'm sure you can load that big old fat straight case down to cat-sneeze loads if you can learn their trajectory, and a 500 grain bullet at 800 feet per second or so will thump pretty hard but not tear up smaller game. The Marlin tolerates pretty hot 32-20 loadings almost up into 357 Mag territory, so there clearly would be overlap, yet you can also load the 32-20 down to near 22 WMR power levels as well.

Now, in the real world, of course we all need dozens and dozens of leverguns in all kinds of cartridges, makes, models, barrel lengths, and stock configurations, just 'in case' some unique hunting or competition situation comes along...

I should point out that although this 'carbine' is only 36-1/4" long (3/4" shorter than my Guide Gun, and 1-1/4" shorter than my 1894 in 44 Mag), it weighs 7 lb 10 oz - so a full 10 ounces more than the Guide Gun, and 18 ounces more than the 44 Mag 1894.

So - it is NOT a 'lightweight' gun - just a 'compact' one. With one in the chamber it holds 8 rounds of 500 S&W, vs. the Guide Gun's 5 rounds of 45-70, so even with 'hot' 45-70 loads, there is more overall firepower, but not all that much per-round vs. the really heavy 45-70 loads some brave souls shoot from the Guide Guns.

Basically, it is NOT a big deal at all recoil-wise, at least compared to the Guide Gun with stout loads. Yes, you know you're shooting a 'real gun', but nothing different than a Garand 'Tanker' as far as I can tell. If you are considering one, don't let 'recoil' be the reason you don't get one.

The only 'downside' I see is the cost, but for me, it basically replaces several guns I will probably be putting in the consignment shop soon - my Guide Gun, my 500 S&W Handi-Rifle, and my 'regular' 444 Marlin (I'll keep the 'XLR' one).

Really, though it pains me to think such things, a person could 'get by' with two leverguns....

The 500 S&W Spike Driver, and a 32-20 Marlin 1894. I'm sure you can load that big old fat straight case down to cat-sneeze loads if you can learn their trajectory, and a 500 grain bullet at 800 feet per second or so will thump pretty hard but not tear up smaller game. The Marlin tolerates pretty hot 32-20 loadings almost up into 357 Mag territory, so there clearly would be overlap, yet you can also load the 32-20 down to near 22 WMR power levels as well.

Now, in the real world, of course we all need dozens and dozens of leverguns in all kinds of cartridges, makes, models, barrel lengths, and stock configurations, just 'in case' some unique hunting or competition situation comes along...

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:50 pm

Whoa, Deja Vu.

-Tutt

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:44 pm

Congratulations.....yep we are all jealous!w

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:00 am

BlaineG wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:
BlaineG wrote:I had a BFR for a couple years...it was so heavy that the recoil never seemed brutal....

Plus, the BFR with the SA grip frame handles the recoil better.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:23 am

CowboyTutt wrote:Whoa, Deja Vu. -Tutt

My posting is all ginched-up 'cuz I can't stay on-line anymore with this website (and only this one). Unsure why, but I just switched to AVG vs. McAfee.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:15 am

to quote the Speer "Reloading Manual #14" :

Re: .460 S&W..
"The maximum average pressure set for the .460 S&W is 65,000 psi. However, if loaded close to this pressure cases may exhibit hard extraction. We held even our full-power loads to that of factory ammunition -- around 55,000 psi -- for reliable extraction. We recommend that you not try to "creep" up any loads shown here."

FWIW, Big Horn Armory is now taking orders for their Model 90 in .460 S&W.

There's not much info except, that to get one, they're asking for $600 down and the balance when the gun is ready to ship (which should be 5 - 6 mos).

Since it's basically a .45 cal, I wonder how good it would cycle .45 Colt & .454 cartridges.......... ?

.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:29 am

Pete44ru wrote:

to quote the Speer "Reloading Manual #14" :

Re: .460 S&W..
"The maximum average pressure set for the .460 S&W is 65,000 psi. However, if loaded close to this pressure cases may exhibit hard extraction. We held even our full-power loads to that of factory ammunition -- around 55,000 psi -- for reliable extraction. We recommend that you not try to "creep" up any loads shown here."

FWIW, Big Horn Armory is now taking orders for their Model 90 in .460 S&W.

There's not much info except, that to get one, they're asking for $600 down and the balance when the gun is ready to ship (which should be 5 - 6 mos).

Since it's basically a .45 cal, I wonder how good it would cycle .45 Colt & .454 cartridges.......... ?

.

Do you have a link for this information?

Well I should have known better than to doubt Pete.
Got this email a few min. ago.

Harry,

Yes, we are now taking orders for our Model 90, the 460. $600.00 down payment, with balance due when gun is ready to ship, which is around 5 to 6 months. Options and pricing are the same as our .500. Sending you pricing and pictures. The Rocky Mountain Discount Sports in your town might have one of our Model 89's, the .500. Let me know if I can be of more help. You can place an order with me.

Sheila Orr
307-250-5612
Big Horn Armory
PO Box 940
Cody, WY 82414

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:22 pm

.

Thanx for the kind words, harry ! .

.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:30 pm

Pete, I can't possibly see how the Model 90 can cycle the 460 AND the 45 Colt and Casull. There is about a .10 difference in length between the 45 Colt and 454, but the difference in length between the 454 and 460 is dramatic

454 1.665 min to 1.765 max
460 1.9 min to 2.29 max

So if its going to feed full length 460 the action has to be set up for that. You might be able to cycle a slightly longer 454 (I do that in my McPherson modified Puma) but why? Just choose a different powder and slow the 460 down a bit.

Truly, the bullet selection in the 460 is what would make it so interesting in a rifle!

-Tutt

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:53 pm

Nice rifle. Good to see they are actually being produced and that they work !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:43 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:Pete, I can't possibly see how the Model 90 can cycle the 460 AND the 45 Colt and Casull. There is about a .10 difference in length between the 45 Colt and 454, but the difference in length between the 454 and 460 is dramatic

454 1.665 min to 1.765 max
460 1.9 min to 2.29 max

So if its going to feed full length 460 the action has to be set up for that. You might be able to cycle a slightly longer 454 (I do that in my McPherson modified Puma) but why? Just choose a different powder and slow the 460 down a bit.

Plus, you'd just have to worry about a 'crud-ring' accumulating, and then firing a full-house 460 load might cause an issue. I've heard this can be an issue in 454's firing lots of 45 Colts then back to 454's, as well.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:11 pm

Plus, you'd just have to worry about a 'crud-ring' accumulating, and then firing a full-house 460 load might cause an issue. I've heard this can be an issue in 454's firing lots of 45 Colts then back to 454's, as well.

Bingo Doc! We used to talk about this on the 454 Casull forum all the time. If you were going to shoot both, shoot all your 454's first, then your 45 Colts. Even then you would still be better off just using the stronger 454 case and downloading it in the same rifle.

I figure if I want a less powerful rifle then I buy ANOTHER rifle, and keep them running in the sweet spot they were designed for. But that's just me.

No "cat sneeze" loads have ever been handloaded by me in my house. I have two cats. I know what they sneeze like.

-Tutt

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:23 am

CowboyTutt wrote:
Truly, the bullet selection in the 460 is what would make it so interesting in a rifle!

The "thing" is......... not everybody is a handloader, so interchangeability can be a large buy/not-buy factor in decision-making.

What I especially liked about my .454 Ruger Super redhawk was the ability to use different factory ammo in it.

.

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:55 am

Doc, thanks for the post. I have been waiting to see this since you first told us it was coming. I can tell you that I'm not disappointed and it dang sure sounds like you're happy. Good for ya! Buck and Tutt, as always, you two are a pleasure to follow.

Warhawk · Post by **Warhawk** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:38 pm

Is Bighorn offering these with a straight gripped stock yet?

My emails to them have gone unanswered.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:35 pm

I just found out they're making them in many more varieties than when I got mine.

The beautiful stock on mine is "#2 Walnut" but now they have a "#1" that's better, along with fancy maple and other woods. They also have not only the stainless finish and the 'nitride' like mine (which is actually stainless with a Glock-like rustproof finish), but color case-hardened ones as well.

AND they have them in 460 S&W now, too, as well as a puny little 454 Casull chambering for weenies....

> BigHornArmory.com

Hopefully soon they'll post some photos of the other stocks and finishes...

You just don't get ballistics like this from most levergun cartridges:

> BigHornArmory Ballistics

They aren't exactly cheap, but people who really want "the best" are buying Winchester 1886's, Marlin 1894's and Guide Guns, and having them rechambered, rebarreled, and tricked-out, and refinished by Turnbull or other craftsmen, and spending similar amounts. I like the idea of a gun designed from the ground-up around high-pressure rounds like the 460 S&W and 500 S&W, better than trying to make a gun not originally designed for that large or high-pressure a round into something it's not.

> BigHornArmory Models and Options

They also now offer a threaded muzzle, which I wish every gun had; you can put on a plain-jane thread-protector if you just have to look traditional, but if you want to really protect your rifling more than the typical 'crown' does, a small 'bird-cage' type flash-suppressor sure does the job best. Plus, you can put on a suppressor when appropriate. It would be interesting to launch one of those 700-grain Ranger Rick projectiles at 900 fps or so out of a suppressed barrel.

I must say the crown on my Model 89 is well-done, though; a far better arrangement in my opinion than what I've seen on many 'target-grade' rifles.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:05 am

They are certainly building a fine-looking rifle. Now if they'll just start chambering them in things us small-bullet guys would appreciate. Such as a nice series of levergun cartridges based on the Remington Benchrest case. 6mm BR anyone?

siberian505 · Post by **siberian505** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:00 am

It's a fun cartridge in the rifle. Nine grains of trail boss with Lyman 501680 runs 900. As much blackhorn 209 and same bullet runs 1200. And then it really gets interesting. Lilgun is probably the best powder for heavy loads, like a450 Keith at 1900. A 400 grain cast mihec at 2135. The 400 grain Hornady easily runs 2000 and will go six FEET in a moose and weigh 394 grains. I've stuck cases and popped primers testing this action. You're not going to break it with book loads. Makes a hell of a picket pin gun too.......

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:26 am

What's the heaviest bullet you can run in a .500?

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:14 am

Hey Doc, you callin' me a Weenie?

or can I wait till my 90A is here before I consider myself a Weenie?

siberian505 · Post by **siberian505** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:24 am

I've shot a few 500 grain Hornadys at 1800 plus. Anything beyond that lenght won't fit and from what I've seen they aren't stabilized. Michael McCourey killed a couple of bull giraffes with this bullet in one of his 500 cartridge's. B&M rifles is his website with a ton of testing results without armchair commando stuff. I if kill an elk with a 350xtp, broke the left hip and got into the body some. Had to readjust the rear sight for my 450 Keith. Those go through about anything. That's the picture on their website of an elk and rifle. Even was an easy pack out. My wonderful wife has shot full loads out of the carbine and didn't complain about recoil and she's 5' 4.5" and 125 pounds. The stock design is what mitigates recoil and that's my design as well as the rifle. I'll take credit where it is due, thanks very much

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:42 pm

Oh you sexy beast, you.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:22 pm

They sent some pictures of different woods, grades, and finishes (I had to screen-shot the PDF to post it, so resolution probably not great).

Spike Driver Options.png

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:25 pm

Les Staley wrote:Hey Doc, you callin' me a Weenie? or can I wait till my 90A is here before I consider myself a Weenie?

Why yes, I believe he did

When that wussy gun shows up, just send it to me. I'll take the heat for you. (except I sold my Freedom Arms

)

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:38 am

Vancelw, when it gets here you'll have to come over and help break it in. Might even take a short break from shooting and go out for some Kokanee.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:02 am

Les Staley wrote:Vancelw, when it gets here you'll have to come over and help break it in. Might even take a short break from shooting and go out for some Kokanee.

Careful.....I show up in strange places

And I haven't been fishing in waaay too long.

I'd like to have one of those Bighorn Armory .460 levers, but they just cost so much and I already have so many levers

My safe is full

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:27 pm

vancelw wrote:I'd like to have one of those Bighorn Armory .460 levers, but they just cost so much and I already have so many levers My safe is full

I had to sell an Obama-inflated AR I built from odds-and-ends, a couple rimfire I didn't need (including a 17 HMR), and a levergun of more 'generic' heritage to get mine, but I'm really GLAD I did - it's a far more interesting and well-made gun than any other I own, and it is also actually a very PRACTICAL one. Between it and my 32-20 Marlin, I actually could do without any other leverguns, in terms of hunting and so on. I figured 'everyone has the usual 94's 92's, and Marlins, but maybe I wanted to have something unique that suited MY wants instead of just 'another decent levergun collection'.

Anyway, life is short; get the toys you want, and enjoy them.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:37 pm

The matte stainless/brown laminate catches my eye.

Not normally a laminated stock fan, but for a weatherproof rifle I could deal with that. I actually prefer polymer, but hey, it works.

The hunter black (if it's a hard finish like tenifer) would be even better. I like the idea for the rifle but the .460 and .500 are such massive overkill for anything I hunt except maybe if I got a shot at elk at close range........it'll just stay eye candy for me.

A .30-06 or .300 is more practical in my case, as is a .30-30 for almost anything I could hunt.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:00 pm

MrMurphy wrote:The matte stainless/brown laminate catches my eye.

Not normally a laminated stock fan, but for a weatherproof rifle I could deal with that. I actually prefer polymer, but hey, it works.

The hunter black (if it's a hard finish like tenifer) would be even better. I like the idea for the rifle but the .460 and .500 are such massive overkill for anything I hunt except maybe if I got a shot at elk at close range........it'll just stay eye candy for me.

A .30-06 or .300 is more practical in my case, as is a .30-30 for almost anything I could hunt.

They claim their impregnated wood stocks (of all types) are as weatherproof as the best synthetics.
They also claim their nitride finish is hard enough to dull an ordinary file (I'm not going to test that).
You could always get a 454 Casull, but I know guys who hunt deer with medium-range cast-lead loads from 375 H&H that are accurate hole-punchers through-and-through, so no reason you couldn't just 'gently' launch a 400 grain slug at 1200 fps or so if you felt so inclined, just being aware of the trajectory.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:36 am

AJMD429 wrote:....so no reason you couldn't just 'gently' launch a 400 grain slug at 1200 fps or so if you felt so inclined, just being aware of the trajectory.

Yep!

I developed the load my son asked for. For elk hunting on the wet side of the cascades, his favorite place was one where shots were anywhere from 20 feet to 40 yards.

He wanted a 500gr load for his Marlin .45-70 that did somewhere around 1200-1300fps. It ended up being a 520gr cast at 1320 and we found elk weren't able to stop it.

Groups in the 30 yard range run about .45 caliber, making headshots on grouse fairly routine. Accuracy is good, recoil is very low and I would imagine it would be the same or less with a 400gr out of a .500 S&W at 1200fps.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:55 am

AJMD429 wrote:....so no reason you couldn't just 'gently' launch a 400 grain slug at 1200 fps or so if you felt so inclined, just being aware of the trajectory.

There's an interesting marketing strategy! "We make the world's strongest levergun, chambered for the world's most powerful handgun cartridges, but if you don't need it, download your cartridges to what just about anything else can do!!!"

Hmmm...

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:56 am

Hmmm...gently launch a cast mid weight bullet at ground squirrel velocities...I see there are other Weenies who think the same as I. We choose the best quality launcher to do it with. Have plenty other lever guns, but since the best is available, we want one of these. (Will Smith in Independance day). "I have got to get me one of these!" This is the thinking process that resulted in a Shilo Sharps 1874 and a Freedom Arms 97 both in my lineup.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:03 am

Les Staley wrote:Hmmm...gently launch a cast mid weight bullet at ground squirrel velocities...I see there are other Weenies who think the same as I. We choose the best quality launcher to do it with. Have plenty other lever guns, but since the best is available, we want one of these. (Will Smith in Independance day). "I have got to get me one of these!" This is the thinking process that resulted in a Shilo Sharps 1874 and a Freedom Arms 97 both in my lineup.

Les, don't get me wrong... I agree. But, the humor struck me hard enough I just HAD to comment!

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:55 am

Griff, no worries. I will also know where the full house stuff hits and have a sight setting for same. I even have two loads for my Winchester 92 in 25-20. Haven't worked up a dual load for the Browning 53 32-20 but will work on it in due time.
I shot a cylinder full of 44 Mag thru my Ruger flattop 50th anniversary last night. Hit the rock every time at about 25 yds, but after 3 shots really had to bear down to continue. Not fun! Will take my Uncle Mikes shooting gloves along next time.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:30 am

Out of curiousity, not having actually shot a .460, .500 or even a .480, what is the realistic range of one, iron sighted with an aperature, in this rifle? I know it's more or less a "Hammer of God" short range bear killer and similar, but if you were in fact hunting with it..... how far can you shoot a .500 without having a rainbow trajectory?

I've shot irons (with bolt actions) out to 600+ yards, so it's not really a case of "can you see it to hit it", just curious what these short stout rounds do ballistically....Are we talking a 2-3 MOA gun at 100 yards, or 3-4 MOA at 200? Can't really see taking a shot past about 150 with something like this. I think of them as a .30-30 with a MUCH bigger bullet (handling wise).

I know .45-70s are ballistically capable of thousand yard stuff (it will get there.....eventually) despite the trajectory, but if these rounds are throwing the same kind of energy at closer ranges, just how far CAN you make a clean kill with one, assuming you're not trying to just explode a bunny?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:53 am

Just another picture. Took it out today for a few shots, and realized it is just not a 'big' levergun, until you look down the barrel. It IS heavy though - reminds me of a 'Tanker Garand' in heft. Maybe similar recoil as well.

I'm going to have to pick a bullet and start figuring out a load, then I may be able to answer MrMurphy's "trajectory" question...

This is what Hornady's Web-based ballistic calculator projects:

Hornady 500 FP/XTP (BC 0.185) @ 1536 fps zeroed at 150 yd

000 yd = -01.5" @ 1536 fps for 2619 fpe
025 yd = +02.0" @ 1432 fps for 2275 fpe
050 yd = +04.4" @ 1336 fps for 1982 fpe
075 yd = +05.6" @ 1251 fps for 1737 fpe
100 yd = +05.3" @ 1177 fps for 1538 fpe
125 yd = +03.6" @ 1115 fps for 1380 fpe
150 yd = +00.0" @ 1064 fps for 1256 fpe
175 yd = -05.4" @ 1021 fps for 1157 fpe
200 yd = -12.9" @ 985 fps for 1077 fpe
225 yd = -22.7" @ 953 fps for 1009 fpe
250 yd = -34.9" @ 925 fps for 951 fpe

Hornady 350 XTP (BC 0.145) @ 2133 fps zeroed at 150 yd:

000 yd = -01.5" @ 2133 fps for 3536 fpe
025 yd = +00.3" @ 2027 fps for 3192 fpe
050 yd = +01.6" @ 1924 fps for 2877 fpe
075 yd = +02.2" @ 1825 fps for 2589 fpe
100 yd = +02.2" @ 1730 fps for 2325 fpe
125 yd = +01.5" @ 1638 fps for 2085 fpe
150 yd = +00.0" @ 1551 fps for 1869 fpe
175 yd = -02.4" @ 1468 fps for 1675 fpe
200 yd = -05.8" @ 1390 fps for 1502 fpe
225 yd = -10.4" @ 1318 fps for 1350 fpe
250 yd = -16.2" @ 1252 fps for 1218 fpe
275 yd = -23.4" @ 1193 fps for 1105 fpe
300 yd = -26.2" @ 1141 fps for 1011 fpe

So it looks like 200 yards would be almost easy with the 350 grain load, and a stretch for the 500 grain one, unless you had a rangefinder or had other accurate cues for exact range 'out there'.

If you use the 350 grain bullet and zero for 200 yards, the maximum arc is 5.2" high at 100 yards and 125 yards, and at 225 yards it is -3.8", and 250 yards gives -8.9", but by 275 yards, you're down -15.4".

So, theoretically, with the 350 grain load, sighted at 200 yards, I suppose 250 yards would be ok.

My 'range estimation' skills aren't that good though, so I think on familiar (not 'marked', just a type of terrain I've hunted on) I could be accurate within +/- 10 yards at 100 yards at best, and probably then +/- 20 yards at 200 yards, or +/- 25 yards at 250 yards. If that's the case, then at 250 yards, where I was at -8.9", I could be anywhere from 225 yards (-3.8"), hitting 5.1" higher than I anticipated, to 275 yards (-15.4"), hitting 6.5" lower than anticipated. That's a bit much for humane hunting, which is why I would get out my 375 Ruger bolt action if I wanted that kind of power for out past 200 yards, or more likely 150 yards.

The 375 Ruger's 270 grain load shoots much flatter, and the scoped rifle makes range estimation a bit easier as well. The much shorter flight-time makes me a bit more confident a game animal wouldn't happen to move and turn a humane shot into a crippling one:

000 yd = -01.5" @ 2840 fps for 4835 fpe
100 yd = +01.8" @ 2600 fps for 4052 fpe
200 yd = +00.0" @ 2372 fps for 3373 fpe
300 yd = -08.0" @ 2156 fps for 2786 fpe
400 yd = -23.6" @ 1951 fps for 2283 fps
500 yd = -48.2" @ 1759 fps for 1855 fpe

Reviewing all that trajectory stuff, I think that my 'cutoff' range choosing between those two cartridges would be 150 yards. Past 300 yards, if I wanted big-mojo, I'd probably go to a 338 Lapua, but after about 500 yards, it too starts to fall like a rock, and requires some talented and accurate range-finding. I can't see myself ever shooting at a game animal past 300 yards anyway.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Nice post Doc. I'm reminded of the phrase, "Beware the man with one rifle!", meaning beware a man who knows his loads trajectory at all ranges. OTOH that's why I like my 375 H&H AI so much. Shoots like a laser beam with iron sights even! -Regards, -Tutt

SargeMarlin · Post by **SargeMarlin** » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:23 am

Mine works really well. Used the Hornady 350 grain Leverevolution factory ammo at 137 laser ranged yards with a cross wind at 20 mph. She was bedded farthest away and I held on her neck/shoulder, forgetting that I would be 4" high at that distance. No tracking required.