POLITICS - looks like FLDS "victim" was a hoax

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Old Ironsights
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Post by Old Ironsights »

BlaineG wrote:
ANY constitutional lawyer will tell you that this is the most dangerous conduct in which the government can engage. "Judge, the information I had on his/her/their violation of the law was false.....but since I was there.....I found this or that evidence of a crime".
If the something else is in plain sight I think they can jump on it...If not, Not....(I'm not all that sure here)
See Tubby, it WASN'T "in plain sight" (except polygyny - which is really a religious issue, not a legal one...)

Are there girls under 18 who have given birth? The media says so. That's an easy enough thing to check, so I'll run with that.

But if Pre-teen pregnancy is all they have in HARD evidence (anonymous telephone tips are still "hearsay"), then why aren't they stripping hundreds/thousands of children from their welfare-mom households in Huston/Dallas/SanAn, etc?

The FACT that they are not being treated with the same level of activisim says volumes about what this is REALLY about.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Thanks for the Insults Mac. Standard tactic of the losing Debator.

Bravo. :roll:
El Mac wrote:Actually OI, you are the Bill Mahrist one to me. Thats right...suspend all rights against Christians and allow pagans, homos, cultists, Darwanists, etc to do whatever they want...just as long as it feels good and the gov't isn't involved.
???
that makes no sense. But maybe I'm confused - is it the Right of Christians to assault, incartcerate/interrogate those who don't believe as they do? I can't infer anything else from what you are saying... and it makes me want to grab my M16 and hole up in the Synagogue...

You seem to be of the same mind as those wacky athiests that believe that "Freedom of Religion" means "Freedom FROM Religion (s that I don't believe in...)

That is a false premise that only goes to prove how little you understand about our Country.
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JohnnyReb »

El Mac...that was a cheap shot. It is clear no one here is trying to protect child molesters. But you just can't let the ends justify the means.

How about my inquiry?
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: But if Pre-teen pregnancy is all they have in HARD evidence (anonymous telephone tips are still "hearsay"), then why aren't they stripping hundreds/thousands of children from their welfare-mom households in Huston/Dallas/SanAn, etc?
Try real hard to put your thinking cap on here and engage.

A cult keeps women and children for their own personal use to include sexual slavery. Understand? Here, the victims have no choice in the matter. In fact, their parents condone the behavior, even if at the very least they condone it with their silence.

In the other scenario that you love to toss up, their parents may not actually condone it. Hell, they probably don't even know it until the kid walks in with the EPT stick. At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...typical for a liberal.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

El Mac wrote: ... At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...typical for a liberal.
BEEEEP! Wrong Answer.

Statutory Rape is Statutory Rape. Period. Doesn't matter who's involved.

It is just as illegal - by law - for a 13 y/o to impregnate a 13 y/o as it is for a 75 y/o to impregnate a 13 y/o. That is THE LAW.

Sure, one is "grosser" than the other, but it it not "more illegal".

Statutory Rape is Statutory Rape.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

JohnnyReb wrote:El Mac...that was a cheap shot. It is clear no one here is trying to protect child molesters. But you just can't let the ends justify the means.
Not to worry Johnny... I've ben in enough debates to know when the Loser is desperate...
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Post by El Mac »

JohnnyReb wrote: El Mac...that was a cheap shot. It is clear no one here is trying to protect child molesters.
Someone looking in from the outside could hardly tell it.
JohnnyReb wrote:But you just can't let the ends justify the means.
No you can't. Which is why the legal system got involved in the first place. As a lawyer, I know you've at least heard of a warrant. CPS and DPS didn't go waltzing in without one. And so, the process, the legal process is at work... I don't get what you DON'T get about that?!?
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote:BEEEEP! Wrong Answer.

Statutory Rape is Statutory Rape. Period. Doesn't matter who's involved.

It is just as illegal - by law - for a 13 y/o to impregnate a 13 y/o as it is for a 75 y/o to impregnate a 13 y/o. That is THE LAW.

Sure, one is "grosser" than the other, but it it not "more illegal".

Statutory Rape is Statutory Rape.
Oh really? Here is the cite:

"Texas
§ 22. 011
Sexual assault for anyone to intentionally or knowingly penetrate a person under age 17, other than his spouse. The actor has an affirmative defense if he is not more than three years older than the victim, who is at least age 14.
Two to 20 years in prison"
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Post by Blaine »

Old Ironsights wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
ANY constitutional lawyer will tell you that this is the most dangerous conduct in which the government can engage. "Judge, the information I had on his/her/their violation of the law was false.....but since I was there.....I found this or that evidence of a crime".
If the something else is in plain sight I think they can jump on it...If not, Not....(I'm not all that sure here)
See Tubby, it WASN'T "in plain sight" (except polygyny - which is really a religious issue, not a legal one...)

Are there girls under 18 who have given birth? The media says so. That's an easy enough thing to check, so I'll run with that.

But if Pre-teen pregnancy is all they have in HARD evidence (anonymous telephone tips are still "hearsay"), then why aren't they stripping hundreds/thousands of children from their welfare-mom households in Huston/Dallas/SanAn, etc?

The FACT that they are not being treated with the same level of activisim says volumes about what this is REALLY about.
Honestly, I don't have an ax to grind in this one....I'll bet the Fathers never intended to let the Constitutition be a blanket to throw over and hide a crime.......This one has not played out yet........ An analogy might be that supporting the Death Penalty is insuring that an innocent man will every once in awhile have his rights violated when he is put down....Yep, I think that a pretty good one.....
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Post by JohnnyReb »

The warrant they obtained was to search for a 16 year old girl being abused by her husband. A warrant that now appears to have been issued on false information.

Law enforcement/CPS/Whomever cannot be allowed to interpret their own warrant.....it is to be specifc for a specific purpose.

In almost any other situation, "except when the ends justify the means to protect children" once it was determined the bounds of the warrant were exceeded or that it was based on false information, the government would be required to restore the status quo.

I step out on the sidewalk and fire a handgun into a crowd and hit and kill a guy who happened to have explosives strapped to his chest and was on the way to blow up a government building. Does this end result justify my reckless conduct?

I am only looking for intellectual honesty in the discussion.

We can maybe even all agree that some good came from killing a terrorist bomber but is it honest to say that the result made my original act OK?
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Post by Hobie »

El Mac wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: But if Pre-teen pregnancy is all they have in HARD evidence (anonymous telephone tips are still "hearsay"), then why aren't they stripping hundreds/thousands of children from their welfare-mom households in Huston/Dallas/SanAn, etc?
Try real hard to put your thinking cap on here and engage.

A cult keeps women and children for their own personal use to include sexual slavery. Understand? Here, the victims have no choice in the matter. In fact, their parents condone the behavior, even if at the very least they condone it with their silence.

In the other scenario that you love to toss up, their parents may not actually condone it. Hell, they probably don't even know it until the kid walks in with the EPT stick. At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...typical for a liberal.
I'm afraid I don't understand... HOW does HOW or WHY a criminal act is conducted affect HOW or WHEN prohibitions against it are enforced? Also, HOW is it that it is ok to use a falsely supported (doesn't somebody have to submit an affidavit about the evidence supporting probable cause?) warrant (if this happened) in some cases but not in others?

It seems to me if the "authorities" can take away somebodies children because a neighbor may have committed a crime of statutory rape, then they could take away my guns because a neighbor commits a robbery or murder or ALLEGEDLY commits a crime...
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Post by Blaine »

I step out on the sidewalk and fire a handgun into a crowd and hit and kill a guy who happened to have explosives strapped to his chest and was on the way to blow up a government building. Does this end result justify my reckless conduct?
I kid thee not...A man in Seattle had the chance to ram the suspect's car in a police chase, the suspect had robbed a bank, was charged and convicted of the crime and the guy the rammed the car was cited and found guilty and later sued by the bad guy for damages, pain and suffering........Amazing, isn't it??!!
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Post by JohnnyReb »

Hobie wrote:
El Mac wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: But if Pre-teen pregnancy is all they have in HARD evidence (anonymous telephone tips are still "hearsay"), then why aren't they stripping hundreds/thousands of children from their welfare-mom households in Huston/Dallas/SanAn, etc?
Try real hard to put your thinking cap on here and engage.

A cult keeps women and children for their own personal use to include sexual slavery. Understand? Here, the victims have no choice in the matter. In fact, their parents condone the behavior, even if at the very least they condone it with their silence.

In the other scenario that you love to toss up, their parents may not actually condone it. Hell, they probably don't even know it until the kid walks in with the EPT stick. At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...typical for a liberal.
I'm afraid I don't understand... HOW does HOW or WHY a criminal act is conducted affect HOW or WHEN prohibitions against it are enforced? Also, HOW is it that it is ok to use a falsely supported (doesn't somebody have to submit an affidavit about the evidence supporting probable cause?) warrant (if this happened) in some cases but not in others?

It seems to me if the "authorities" can take away somebodies children because a neighbor may have committed a crime of statutory rape, then they could take away my guns because a neighbor commits a robbery or murder or ALLEGEDLY commits a crime...
Hobie's got it!!!!!!!!!
go looking for ONE 16 year old girl and come back with 416 children (boys and girls) ranging in age from 5 months to 18 years! That has been my point.

I can live with: bring back all 16 year old girls/ all girls who look 16 years old/ all girls above the age of 13......all of these could be reasonable responses to the original complaint and subsequent warrant...
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Post by JohnnyReb »

Last Post but I just have to know: (the following statements are reports from the court proceedings)

"Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys."

So why did they take the boys and babies?


"The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her. Investigators have yet to identify her among the children seized"

So it is possible that she is posing as one of the infants?


"But under questioning from defense lawyers who lined up in the courtroom aisles to have a turn at each witness, the state's experts acknowledged that the sect mothers are loving parents and that there were no signs of abuse among younger girls and any of the boys".

So with no evidence of abuse among the younger girls and any of the boys (State's witnesses so they had to know what the testimony would be), State has not dropped the petition against the younger girls and boys to adoption them out?

El Mac or anyone......it is OK to put these children and parents through this ordeal and make them come to court (remember the quotes....let the courts sort it out) to answer these allegations???????

So how does the State restore the last 2 weeks separation with children and parents? The emotional distress of innocent people?

This is why we must adhere to due process. ONE innocent child taken from ONE innocent parent is ONE too many.

Courts are for lawful proceedings against properly seized and charged people.... Not for trying to correct the mistakes of the government.
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Post by bogus bill »

Ok, I am back. Here are some very scattered thoughts. 1st, this isnt the first time they were raided. In 1953 short creek now hilldale and colorado city where these people all are from 3 years ago, was raided under almost identical circumstances. It was a big flop and the govenor lost her office in the aftermath.
2nd, the way it works a husband & wife get married legally. After that there is no legal paperwork for the following wifes. There is no more paperwork to hang them on.
3rd, there HAS been other arrests on some of the men here for rape, and I belive a few are in jail yet.
4th, poligamy IS against the law here. It has not been prosicuted as there isnt near enough beds in state jails to hold them. Also it is hard to prove as I said because of #2, no paperwork and they wont testify against each other.
5th, The men can and will survive any outcome. They arent nieve creatons. Most if not all work on the outside mostly as construction owners, cross country truck drivers or what have you. Its the women that have next to no way to survive in our society. They are afraid of outsiders and have no outside work skills at all. Most havent been schooled beyound 6th grade, and that was in their own school that jeffs controlled. I know of one that tried to escape and was railroaded in to being put in a insane assylum. Escaped again and locked in a shed on the compound.
6th, they had their own police department all poligamists. They did file reports with nothing done and recieved disapline for going to the police, cops would tell the husbands and they were locked up at home. In the last year the entire police dept lost their posts, and the sheriffs dept polices the area. Last I knew some of the cops are in jail here.
I am tired of typeing for now, will give more info later.
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Post by Kismet »

While I am getting to the discussion late and it has already been said...

STOP comparing pregnant teens in the "inner city" with these kids. That is the single silliest point of this discussion (a touch of racism does little to convey the point that the current issue smacks of religious persecution) . A 75 year old having sex with a 13 year old IS different (legally and morally) than a 13 year old having sex with a 13 year old.

While some of you continue to rail against any action by the State in this situation (a point with which I disagree - although I do agree they have overstepped their bounds), the Court proceedings are ongoing. Once there is some indication of the results then I'm sure there will be plenty discuss with facts :shock: available to all!

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Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Uh Oh, it looks like they may have found the caller. A hoax caller in another similar incident. Texas authorities have asked the Colorado authorities not to discuss the situation. Reference the following link:

http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topn ... be59f555ff

It's nice to see that they cared enough to pursue the hoax call route. Still very preliminary though.
Kismet wrote:Once there is some indication of the results then I'm sure there will be plenty discuss with facts available to all!
So we should pick this thread back up in late 2009? After the state and their always well meaning CPS is through with the investigation and court proceedings. At legal speed, I'm afraid the damage will be done no matter which way it falls.
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Post by Old Time Hunter »

What happened to habeas corpus? Should not a writ been filed? Thought 24 hours was the law for uncharged detention? Is not the normal procedure to have facts of a crime to be issued a warrant? Or are fishing expeditions now a matter of police procedure with aid of the court?

I do not condone the culture of the detained, but I am more revolted by the acts of this government and it's agents. I see no difference between what this government did and what Hitler's did in the '30's.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Kismet wrote:...STOP comparing pregnant teens in the "inner city" with these kids. That is the single silliest point of this discussion (a touch of racism does little to convey the point that the current issue smacks of religious persecution) ...
Um...No.

My wife works in a school that has a primary population of underpriveleged students of a variety of ethnic backgrounds.

One of the students she tries to help is 12. She just had a baby... yet NO ONE is interested in takeing her out of her abusive/uncontrolled/unstable home.

This seems to be the general policy of the schools nationwide. No Bruises, no Warrants.

Yet, in this case, where the children aren't being fed into the Government Indoctrination System or are allowed to absorb Mass Media from other sources, the Government/DCFS is more than willing to kick in a few doors.

What's racistabout pointing that out... other than that if DCFS tried to do this to a Black Church in the US Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and twelve dozen other media hos would show up to "earn" their donation/salary...

But nahh. These are just WASP Cult Weirdos... Fry em inn the court of Public Opinion before ANY truth comes out. :roll:
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Post by El Mac »

Old Time Hunter wrote:I see no difference between what this government did and what Hitler's did in the '30's.
:shock:
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: These are just WASP Cult Weirdos...
There is NOTHING WASP about these fruits.
Old Ironsights wrote: Fry em inn the court of Public Opinion before ANY truth comes out. :roll:
Kinda like you fry the State of Texas. :roll:
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Post by Old Ironsights »

El Mac wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: These are just WASP Cult Weirdos...
There is NOTHING WASP about these fruits.
Um... They look pretty White, Anglo Saxon & Protestant (look it up) to me...

But hey, go ahead and prove just how hateful and delusional you are...
Old Ironsights wrote: Fry em inn the court of Public Opinion before ANY truth comes out. :roll:
Kinda like you fry the State of Texas. :roll:
??? Explain. I can't quite make it through the haze around your lack of cogency...
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Post by bogus bill »

Why dont we just wait and see what they got? If a aligation is made the dps has to follow it up. I will admit there probley is a lot of worry from other events like waco, the raid in 1953 etc, that weighed heavy on how to go in. You see, especialy in the last 3 years since jeff was on the run, a ton of stories have come out makeing both sides hinckey.
I am sure these stories and books have played on the minds of all law officals in the case. Probley had the dps done nothing and later when things really blow they know people would drag out these stories and book accounts and the VERY SAME people jumping down their throats at the moment would be forming a lych mob for not doing their job in the past! On a lower level that is already happening around here now on the preceeding jeffs case. Have any of you read about a sliver of the group that went to mexico and got in a power struggle amoungst themselves and so far there have been something like 6 or 8 murders with a few people, one a woman, that are on the run down there?
Has any one here read about a supposed creamatorium that the cult supposedly built, speculation was it could be for the retarded children and people that got out of line. No brith certificates so no murders.
A lawsuite was filed by 2 brothers here last week in cedar city whos farm at beryle a small farming community to the west of me whos farm was stolen from under the flds and they were threw off and claim their share was in the millions. I know the farm it was huge.
My point is there is a ton of things going on here that you wouldnt hear on your national news sources. I am sure texas authorites have heard the stories if I have. Probley they want to act hard when given the opening so they dont repeat utahs and arizonas mistake. I am sure there is far more going on behind the scenes and evidence that hasnt come out yet. Dont be tyeing your nooses just yet. Big chance you might be embarassed later!
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Post by C. Cash »

Old Ironsights wrote:
C. Cash wrote:I still think this is a case of he said/she said until the facts become more established. This call may have indeed been a hoax but it also might be her trying to get her 15 min. of fame by appearing to the tipster. What appears to be true at this point is that underage girls were having babies there. So, doubly sad if this call is a hoax because those little girls will continue to have to endure their "duty" as the subsequent evidence found in the compound will be worth squat. What Jeff's group has done to these underage girls(and what Jeffs himself was convicted of) is rape. Scores of folks that have escaped his communities have attested to it. Sex that is forcibly coerced is rape. The fact that it is happening to little girls is all the more dispicable.
Ok... then why aren't there more arrests of parents/children taken away when yet another little black girl scomes to grade school pregnant?

Oh, because she's in a "protected class" and not a member of a weird white-people cult - and going after HER parents wouldn't give the Government as much Media Exposure. :roll:

Can you give me any other explanation why "Child Protective Services" would act so differently in the two cases?
Your right about the double standard....that some folks expect a minority child to be young and pregnant vs. a white one. Overall, I think there is an honest attempt to refer all suspected cases of child sexual abuse though, regardless of race and socio economic status. I'm sure more kids get lost in the system of the bigger cities. I worked at a local Children and Youth Services for a short time before I realized I simply could not take it. The cases I was working on churned my guts to where it was affecting my personal life. I truly wanted to load the old 44 and close with. Anyway, the County agency that I worked at seemed to investigate any and all claims of child abuse regardless of who the victims were. Even if not out of empathy, workers would be afraid of getting sued. There are rogue case manager's out there for sure with an agenda, but most just do their job. One of the strange things I found while working there, was that the folks who I worked with were, almost to a woman, avowed liberals who hated Conservatives...an anti male group no doubt bolstered by the male jerks who typically abuse kids. Women do it to kids too as do other kids, but they usually don't call in and threaten to shoot up the entire CYS office after the investigation begins. So, there was a strange anti-male, anti-Conservative thing going on there(they must have love me! :shock: ), but not sure how much commonality there is to case workers across the nation in possessing this bias and how much it might be affecting this case.
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Post by PaulB »

I'm late to this one, but will throw in a few comments.

Even assuming there is "sexual slavery" and 75 year old men laying with 13 year old girls (is that a fact or an allegation?), it's still disturbing in the extreme to see the government tossing all constitutional protections out the door. No, people who are bothered by that are not condoning sexual slavery. :roll:

When you look at the big picture, arranged marriages by and large are the norm for the human race, not marriages arranged by hormones like we do it in this country (I've known people who had arranged marriages, they seemed as happy as anyone else). Husbands older than wives are also the norm (and for a very good reason, being able to support a family). Polygamy is hardly unusual for the human race either. And I doubt any of these very normal practices are in violation of any constitutions, state or federal. They may be against laws, but we all know laws are often unconstitutional because there is no penalty for legislators passing unconstitutional laws.

Anyway, I guess I can't see how people get their panties in a bind over these sorts of things. This is 2008 after all.

Particular cases having these features may get into the area of abuse - just like "normal" (for America) marriages may get abusive - but that does not mean all such marriages and practices are that way. There still has to be proof.

Which brings up the legal system. I'm amazed some people still feel one can reliably get justice out of it. I wish those folks luck, but remember there are over two million Americans in jail (most for no good reason), more per capita than any other country, so the system runs on its own logic and I don't think justice is much of a consideration most of the time.

Note there was a famous case in Washington state where a prosecutor arrested a whole church making all sorts of amazing allegations, turned out all false, and there was that Duke thing in NC recently.

Keep in mind child kidnapping, er, I mean, protection agencies get lots of money from the federal government for adopting kids out. Yes, they have a financial incentive, a rather large one, for stealing children. Might be a factor here too.

I no longer believe anything people in government say any more, nor anything reported in the mainstream media. I'm sure they throw in an actual truth now and then for effect, but mostly our ruling class are a bunch of liars. Chances are pretty good this has more to do with the careers of prosecutors and social workers than with abuse, if past cases are any indication.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

PaulB wrote:...Note there was a famous case in Washington state where a prosecutor arrested a whole church making all sorts of amazing allegations, turned out all false, ....
Now now Paul... none of the Witch Hunters want to hear anything about the Wenatchee case...which I watched unfold in the Courthouse in Spokane - or the McMartin case - or any of the other cases (all oddly similar in being big-media cases) eventually proven to be hoaxes/false arrest/conviction.

It disturbs their self righteousness. :roll:
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: Um... They look pretty White, Anglo Saxon & Protestant (look it up) to me...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant
Other groups, such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, reject Protestantism as a deviation from true Christianity, while perceiving themselves to be restorationists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism
Restorationism, sometimes called Christian primitivism, frequently describes religious movements that believe pristine, or original Christianity is restored in themselves to an important degree. These diverse groups teach that a restoration of Christianity has become necessary because Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christians introduced grave defects into Christian faith and practice, or have lost a vital element of genuine Christianity. (see Great Apostasy).

As a descriptive label, restorationism often applies particularly to the Restoration Movement, and numerous other unaffiliated movements that originated in the eastern United States and Canada and grew rapidly in the early and mid 19th century in the wake of the Second Great Awakening. Restoration is also a label self-applied by the Latter Day Saint movement, often called Mormonism, referring to a period which began with Joseph Smith and the publication of the Book of Mormon.
http://www.gotquestions.org/restorationism.html
they have in common the notion that true Christianity had died out many years ago and it needed to be restored to its original New Testament form. Some of these groups believe they alone are the embodiment of true Christianity, some going so far as to teach that all other groups, including mainline Protestant denominations, are not really Christians at all, having lost their way over the centuries to complete apostasy.
Really now. This is getting boring and so far off topic as to be completely pedantic in scope.
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: It disturbs their self righteousness. :roll:
:)

My my OI. We cross? :wink:
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Post by JohnnyReb »

You know fellas, I think I am going to side with El Mac. The law in Texas says that the judge can take up to one year to decide this case without making a final determination. The heck with due process, lets have the court decide! I mean Judges and CPS have to know what is best for the youth, right?

Shoot, in a year alot of those young kids will forget who their real parents are (were). They will be well indoctrinated in the foster care system. The State of Texas can pay to raise em.

The mothers are young, right? They can have more children. Just chalk this one up to a mistake and let it ride....... no harm, no foul....

C'mon folks......practice makes perfect.....the government just needs to go in and look around.... I am sure they are going to find something eventually......
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Post by Jeeps »

LETS ALL HOLD ON ONE SECOND HERE :? :? :? :? :? :?


Answer me one question please.... WHO GOT RAPED????????????

Did they trace the call before asking for a warrant? Pisspoor.

416 women and children taken and no men? FISHING EXPEDITION :evil:
The end was going to justify the means here and it's shameful there are people
sticking up for that line of thinking in this country. :oops:

Also, if a child gets raped in your town, should the state just start collecting
hundreds of citizens till they find one who can point a finger???
Sounds like some here are fine with that one.

Child molesters? If they were found guilty WITHOUT DOUBT, I would volunteer
to start pulling triggers and be proud of it.

Anonymous phone calls accusing others is no basis for flexing the arm of the law,
it is however a reason for an investigation, last I checked rounding up and
detaining people is not part of a legal investigation.

Please try to remember how many people have suffered in this world from
socialist regimes and their "report your neighbor" schemes they always seem
to institute sooner or later. They always end up getting used as a "get even"
tool for angry people much more than they do good.

I prefer to err on the side of the Constitution, maybe I'm just weird :cry:

Oh, and please refrain from using the term "inner city" it is evidently a
very racist remark. :roll:
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Post by Jeeps »

Oh, I forgot the line of reasoning I was trying to figure out that they might have
used in this case.

"Hey Jerry, I just had a call from a 16 year old girl who says she was raped."

"Thanks Frank, but wait, she may have lied about her age so make sure you collect every female on the premises."

"Geez Jerry you think we can do that?"

"Of course Frank, everyone knows these people are molesters, we will have our proof in no time at all."

"You have a point Jerry, once we find what were looking for we will be praised for stopping the molester we know is there."

"Thata boy Frank, your learning."
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Post by winchester1886 »

To much talk, if they find any of them guilty time for
Captain Augustus McCray and Captain Woodrow F Call

Where's he goin

To find a tree to hang ya.
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Post by 41bear »

Jeeps wrote:LETS ALL HOLD ON ONE SECOND HERE :? :? :? :? :? :?


Answer me one question please.... WHO GOT RAPED????????????

Did they trace the call before asking for a warrant? Pisspoor.

416 women and children taken and no men? FISHING EXPEDITION :evil:
The end was going to justify the means here and it's shameful there are people
sticking up for that line of thinking in this country. :oops:

Also, if a child gets raped in your town, should the state just start collecting
hundreds of citizens till they find one who can point a finger???
Sounds like some here are fine with that one.

Child molesters? If they were found guilty WITHOUT DOUBT, I would volunteer
to start pulling triggers and be proud of it.

Anonymous phone calls accusing others is no basis for flexing the arm of the law,
it is however a reason for an investigation, last I checked rounding up and
detaining people is not part of a legal investigation.

Please try to remember how many people have suffered in this world from
socialist regimes and their "report your neighbor" schemes they always seem
to institute sooner or later. They always end up getting used as a "get even"
tool for angry people much more than they do good.

I prefer to err on the side of the Constitution, maybe I'm just weird :cry:

Oh, and please refrain from using the term "inner city" it is evidently a
very racist remark. :roll:
I'm late on this one but Jeeps I'm with you! It reeks of Government overstepping it bounds. Of course that is nothing new all you have to do is look; the First Amendment was trampled on by Lincoln so why is this, done by the state of Texas, any different?
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Post by sore shoulder »

Kismet wrote:While I am getting to the discussion late and it has already been said...

STOP comparing pregnant teens in the "inner city" with these kids. That is the single silliest point of this discussion (a touch of racism does little to convey the point that the current issue smacks of religious persecution) .


Facts are not racist, but I see your PC programming is complete.
A 75 year old having sex with a 13 year old IS different (legally and morally) than a 13 year old having sex with a 13 year old.


So show me where they have a 75 yr old in custody, and anywhere else that if this were the case, the mother and child would be kidnapped and separated.
While some of you continue to rail against any action by the State in this situation (a point with which I disagree - although I do agree they have overstepped their bounds), the Court proceedings are ongoing. Once there is some indication of the results then I'm sure there will be plenty discuss with facts :shock: available to all!


So we need facts to even discuss the issue, but the state does not neeed them before acting? Also, you have conceded they have "overstepped their bounds" (meaning violation of due process), but your not going to say anything about it, and your not ok with others excercising their 1st Amendment rights to protest abuse of the 4th Amendment by the state. I'm sure the overlords appreciate your complacency.
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Post by Leverdude »

I'm undecided on many things regarding this case, that being the main reason I'v managed to keep silent so far.

But I feel a need to voice my discust that many seem ok about it because it hasn't gone to court yet & we should wait out the truth. Wait out the truth while people are having their kids taken away from them? Wait out the truth when the truth is that the supposed aggressors are the ONLY ones that were left alone? Wait out the truth even knowing that the initial call was a hoax?

Bullsnot! There are ways to move proceedings along & if there was substance to this thing they would have. What we are seeing is a Law enforcement screw up & the efforts being made to justify it regardless of the cost to the families involved. Why is it so out of line to expect the authorities to stop & deist IMMEDIATELY when they screw up?

As has been mentioned, theres underage preganancies everywhere & most are rewarded state funding not persecuted as is the case here.
I can take you to projects in South Norwalk where better than half the underage girls if not already with children or pregnant are having sex on a regular basis. Whats the difference? There is none except whats seen as persecution of minorities is seen as law enforcemnent when applied to white people.

Anyway, its obvious that IF they CANNOT press charges they should reunite the families & go find a bad guy to pester. Maybe use this as an excuse for thinning the ranks a bit & doing some policy overview.
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Post by Hobie »

Well nobody wanted to answer my questions directly but if I might make an analogy...

It seems to me sort of like the fella that went trout fishing with dynamite. When all the fish floated to the surface after the explosion, he looked about to see if there were any he'd want to take home. He left the bass, carp and undersized trout and only took enough legal ones to fill his limit. Then he went home and bragged about what a good fisherman he was.
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Post by El Mac »

Leverdude wrote:As has been mentioned, theres underage preganancies everywhere & most are rewarded state funding not persecuted as is the case here.
I can take you to projects in South Norwalk where better than half the underage girls if not already with children or pregnant are having sex on a regular basis. Whats the difference? There is none except whats seen as persecution of minorities is seen as law enforcemnent when applied to white people.
It has been explained, many times over.
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Post by JohnnyReb »

Hey Mac... did I explain our position well enough? :D
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Post by El Mac »

JohnnyReb wrote:Hey Mac... did I explain our position well enough? :D
For a defense lawyer, it was about what I expected. :wink:
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Post by JohnnyReb »

So I take it that you have nothing to add or detract....

therefore it is our government manifesto!
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Post by bogus bill »

I have mixed feelings about all this. More comments ? I will chime in latter.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 50,00.html
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Post by Old Ironsights »

bogus bill wrote:I have mixed feelings about all this. More comments ? I will chime in latter.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 50,00.html
Yep. Lots of things to have mixed feelinga bout here, no doubt.

But where I come down is really simple.

I took an Oath to Protect and Defend the CONSTITUTION - not a State Law, not a Church Rule, not even, necessairly, "the children".

The best way to protect ALL "the children" is to enforce the Constitution. The Principles codified therein are more important tha any one - or 416 - individual.

If we sacrifice those Principles for expedience or "the children" then we lose everything. We may as well just go ahead and become a full fledged Authoritatian State.

That's somthing the "For the Children" folks miss...
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Post by JohnnyReb »

El Mac wrote:
JohnnyReb wrote:Hey Mac... did I explain our position well enough? :D
For a defense lawyer, it was about what I expected. :wink:
Good. Glad we are on the same page.

Now, you getting all the names of these anti-government type?
We need to turn 'em in for sure! I mean, all our government wants is the opportunity to come in and look around..... If you aren't doing anything wrong then what's the harm?

These guys must be hiding something....acting strange to me..... wonder if we could get an early pickup on the one's in Texas!! All we have to say is that we think THEY are hiding the 16 year caller..... There is a plan!
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Post by Old Ironsights »

El Mac wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: It disturbs their self righteousness. :roll:
:)

My my OI. We cross? :wink:
Why would I be cross?

But thanks for pointing me to the massivly authoritative "wiki"... :roll:

I guess I can just go and forget 4 years of Uni Education - particularly the TheoPolitical & Political Philosophy bits.

All Hail Wiki. :?
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Post by Leverdude »

El Mac wrote:
Leverdude wrote:As has been mentioned, theres underage preganancies everywhere & most are rewarded state funding not persecuted as is the case here.
I can take you to projects in South Norwalk where better than half the underage girls if not already with children or pregnant are having sex on a regular basis. Whats the difference? There is none except whats seen as persecution of minorities is seen as law enforcemnent when applied to white people.
It has been explained, many times over.
I musta missed it. All I read were rationalizations, not reasons its different for kids in one place to have babies but not in others.

Ok, so lets look at it this way.
If no charges are filed & no crimes are found is what hapenned ok? Can these lives be fixed? Is there a real way for a govt to give satisfaction when its taken children from their parents against their will & no crime was even commited? When the initial report was a crank call?
Is there a way for them to make things right?
I dont think so. False acusations for things like this ruin lives.
Its not ok to just sweep it under the rug if they screwed up.

Its funny how folks will tell you that LE agencies & personell are held to a higher authority, but, then when they screw up folks make excuses for them & are willing to look the other way.

The fact is many many lives have been trashed for a fishing trip that looks like it might come up dry. Thats just wrong & if the people hadn't been demonized from the git go wouldn't be viewed favorably. Least thats how it looks from here.
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: I took an Oath to Protect and Defend the CONSTITUTION - not a State Law, not a Church Rule, not even, necessairly, "the children".
You aren't the only one.

I haven't yet seen anything unconstitutional. A sworn warrant, approved by a judge, executed professionally and not a shot fired. Hardly a duplication of Waco.

Its interesting to me that they are going the way of the DNA route. One thing for sure, it will be proof positive, one way or the other. I suspect that if the DNA proves out that kids are having children by adults, there will be some nice sentences handed down. If that be the case, it would be nice to have McCrae and Call around. If the DNA proves otherwise, the state will have a mess on its hands unless it comes out that they had more evidence than a fraudulent call. If that be the case, I see lawsuit people in abundance.
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Post by El Mac »

Leverdude wrote: I musta missed it. All I read were rationalizations, not reasons its different for kids in one place to have babies but not in others.
Reproduced here for ye:
El Mac wrote:A cult keeps women and children for their own personal use to include sexual slavery. Understand? Here, the victims have no choice in the matter. In fact, their parents condone the behavior, even if at the very least they condone it with their silence.

In the other scenario that you love to toss up, their parents may not actually condone it. Hell, they probably don't even know it until the kid walks in with the EPT stick. At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...
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El Mac wrote:
Leverdude wrote: I musta missed it. All I read were rationalizations, not reasons its different for kids in one place to have babies but not in others.
Reproduced here for ye:
El Mac wrote:A cult keeps women and children for their own personal use to include sexual slavery. Understand? Here, the victims have no choice in the matter. In fact, their parents condone the behavior, even if at the very least they condone it with their silence.

In the other scenario that you love to toss up, their parents may not actually condone it. Hell, they probably don't even know it until the kid walks in with the EPT stick. At any rate, the kids that are screwing like rabbits aren't being forced to do so by older adults calling it religion and not letting them off the compound. And last time I checked, when an adult did empregnate a kid, at the very least it was called statutory rape or worse.

You are discussing apples and oranges...
Yep. Proof that you are more worried about Pregnant White Girls and their Ebil Church than Pregnant Blak Girls and their crappy, US Goventment Sponsored life... :roll:
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Post by El Mac »

Old Ironsights wrote: Yep. Proof that you are more worried about Pregnant White Girls and their Ebil Church than Pregnant Blak Girls and their crappy, US Goventment Sponsored life... :roll:
Nah. I'm not worried at all. I was just explaining the difference between apples and oranges OI. Kinda like explaining how 1 + 1 = 2. Its not really a matter of opinion, it just is. :)
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Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

El Mac wrote:I was just explaining the difference between apples and oranges OI.
Will a different law be applied to a 19 year old crack dealer that impregnates a 15 year old middle school girl in the "inner city" versus a 34 year old FLDS member that marries and impregnates a 15 year old girl in the FLDS community?

Or are you assuming that 99% of all underage, pregnant, inner city girls came to that state via a boys their same age or older yet still not of majority?

If the FLDS relocated to Puerto Rico (AoM 14), would we even be having this discussion?
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