My newest caliber .44-100 Ballard Everlasting

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:46 pm

Haven't got the gun in my hands yet, but have a new (to me!) toy coming soon. A Ballard Long Range in .44-100 Ballard Everlasting!

Specs are a 2.81" case, with a 535 gr. paper patch bullet, for OAL of 3.75"! The gun is coming with plenty of cases, bullets, loading dies, bullet mold, and a few other accessories. So may have to learn how to paper patch bullets soon!
Gun has the typical #7 Long Range features, with pistol grip deluxe wood, shotgun style buttplate, loop lever, and 34" Creedmoor barrel. Plus long range vernier tang sight. Should be a hoot to stretch it out to the 1,000 yds. it was designed to be used at.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:55 pm

that's outstanding and looks like a lot of fun.

very close ballistics to the 45/70/525 from my guide gun. that's a potent round.

love the everlasting designation, high expectations for sure.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:05 pm

Grizz wrote:that's outstanding and looks like a lot of fun.

very close ballistics to the 45/70/525 from my guide gun. that's a potent round.

love the everlasting designation, high expectations for sure.

The "Everlasting" Ballard cases were heavier wall thickness, designed for people who reloaded their own. Marlin made some cases in Everlasting, and standard, like the .40-63 Everlasting, which was .40-70 Ballard standard. But the .44-100 Ballard was only offered as an EL case.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:37 pm

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:39 pm

Yeah, if the chamber's cut for paper patched bullets you'll probably have a time trying to get grease groove bullets to fly right. While most .40-90BNs were originally chambered for PP bullets, I had Shiloh make mine with a short lead for grease groove bullets.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:19 pm

I certainly hope for a chamber that could shoot grease groove bullets, but this gun dates to 1875-76 era, so doubt they even had grease groove bullets then. Whatever it is, I wont change it.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:33 pm

One of the pictures sent of the #7 Ballard Long Range.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:48 pm

That sure looks like a project to me. I'll be the rifle is up to it. The project will be getting the operator up to speed. Congratulations and good luck. Keep us posted on your progress, please.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:50 am

Nice! Hope you'll provide commentary about your activities with this rifle!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:19 am

I like that !

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:56 am

That is a beautiful rifle. I'll bet you have a lot of fun with it. I never got deep into paper patched bullets but is something I always wanted to try. Just never got around to it and my time is getting short. Too many projects for the time I have left.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:26 am

I hope I'm up to a new method of loading too! I do have a 290 grain plinker bullet I use in my old Rolling Block in .44-77SBN that is a hollow base design, and might also get tested. But if it's the wrong size, or doesn't fit a paper patch chamber, it wont see any use. Unsure of the weight of the mold that's coming with the gun, or design? Might be a paper patch, grease groove, and unknown of the size. Just know it was what the owner shot with this gun, so hopefully that part is figured out.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:30 pm

That's a spectacular find, MarlinMan. Kelly green with envy here.
Years ago, I got to handle a very fine Ballard No. 5 Pacific in a little gun shop in Hillsboro called the Powder Horn. Doubt it is there any more. With the rifle was an old original wide ammo belt and several cases -- .40-90 Everlasting. The rifle was not for sale, but still I staggered out of the shop in a near swoon, realizing why dear old Ned Roberts said the Ballards left him "greatly pleased."
If you need some patching paper, let me know. I bought a ream from the late Joe Hepsworth.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:46 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:That's a spectacular find, MarlinMan. Kelly green with envy here.
Years ago, I got to handle a very fine Ballard No. 5 Pacific in a little gun shop in Hillsboro called the Powder Horn. Doubt it is there any more. With the rifle was an old original wide ammo belt and several cases -- .40-90 Everlasting. The rifle was not for sale, but still I staggered out of the shop in a near swoon, realizing why dear old Ned Roberts said the Ballards left him "greatly pleased."
If you need some patching paper, let me know. I bought a ream from the late Joe Hepsworth.

Thanks Bill! I remember the Powder Horn well! I went out when Don was closing it, but didn't find anything to buy. Had to stand in line for awhile, as they only let a few people in at a time to buy. I read something about using onion skin paper for patching, but will do more investigating before I start. I have a Ballard Pacific in .45-70, but never used paper patch in it. It shoots grease groove bullets great!
Are you in the Hillsboro area? I'm over on the east side of Portland.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:27 pm

MarlinMan, I am in my old hometown of Salem. Hadn't thought of the Powder Horn in years until jogged by your Ballard post.
I still have most of that ream of paper I got from Joe at the old J. Cunard Company. Joe represented the U.S. in long-range muzzleloading matches in Britain and I believe South Africa, and possibly Australia. He really new his stuff and insisted this blue high-rag paper was the best he had found for paper patching. PM me your mailing address and I will drop it in the mail to you if interested.
Bill

https://researchpressuk.wordpress.com/2 ... hepsworth/

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:21 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:MarlinMan, I am in my old hometown of Salem. Hadn't thought of the Powder Horn in years until jogged by your Ballard post.
I still have most of that ream of paper I got from Joe at the old J. Cunard Company. Joe represented the U.S. in long-range muzzleloading matches in Britain and I believe South Africa, and possibly Australia. He really new his stuff and insisted this blue high-rag paper was the best he had found for paper patching. PM me your mailing address and I will drop it in the mail to you if interested.
Bill

https://researchpressuk.wordpress.com/2 ... hepsworth/

Sending PM. Thanks Bill!

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:08 pm

Those fine single shots are a more worse disease than antique leverguns as there's fewer to choose from and the guys who have them hold on to them. Sure makes it all challenging.

BTW, I was talking to Gary Quinlin today at the Oaks Show. I was surprised he set up there as about 90% of the 1000 tables had AR's. He had a few Ballards there along with some nice Hi-Walls and even some like new Model 52 Winchesters. All kinds of accoutrements for single shots. I asked him if he knew you but I was only able to give your first name and location. He did not but is a very likable guy to talk to. He advised me not to send my 36" Steven scope to Parsons for cleaning as their reputation is going downhill.-------6

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:13 am

Gary and I have chatted previously, but don't know him personally, and sure he wouldn't remember me. He was extremely helpful in pointing me in the right direction when I was trying to find out information on my 1881 Marlin with "E Flues Bay City" rollstamp on it. Thanks to Gary I was able to get in touch with Bay City, Mi. Historical Society, and also the Michigan Historical Society; who put me in touch with Emil Flues' nephew. I got tons of information from all of them, and now have more provenance on Flues, and that rifle than I have on any other gun I own! It all started because Gary had an ad in SSE for a Flues Schuetzen rifle, and I called looking for info!
Old singleshots, and lever actions have always been very addicting for me! But it's a good addiction, and takes all my spare funds, so nothing left for nasty habits like drinking and smoking!
The E Flues 1881:

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:27 am

Wow. That's living history right there, in good hands.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:31 am

That's really nice, what isthebore diameter, is it a true .44 caliber? Todd/3leg

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:02 pm

Sure looks like an onion skin patched bullet to me... Hope you have tons of fun

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:53 pm

3leggedturtle wrote:That's really nice, what isthebore diameter, is it a true .44 caliber? Todd/3leg

At this point I can only go by Cartridges of the World, which states the .44-100 Ballard uses a .445" bullet. So halfway between a true .44 and a .45 caliber. The original bullet was somewhere between 500 and 550 grains for 1,000 yd. matches. John Dutcher said in his book on Ballard history that the .44-100's recoil with a full case of black powder and a 550 grain bullet was described as, "horrendous" in old writings of the 1800's. He goes on to say that many Creedmoor style shooters breech seated, or muzzle loaded their bullets, as this was not only more accurate, but also less recoil with the extra space in the case. John said that many original Everlasting cases are found with neck thickness reamed also, so shooters could shoot grease groove bullets with the thick wall Everlasting cases.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:57 pm

Grizz wrote:Wow. That's living history right there, in good hands.

Thanks Grizz! I hope I can load it down to tolerable recoil, as I want to shoot this gun a fair amount! I may try loading about 5 cases with full charge of BP, and the 550 gr. bullet, just to "experience" that. But I'm not a recoil fan, so will also work up loads that hopefully work well, with less recoil.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:24 pm

marlinman93 wrote:
Grizz wrote:Wow. That's living history right there, in good hands.
Thanks Grizz! I hope I can load it down to tolerable recoil, as I want to shoot this gun a fair amount! I may try loading about 5 cases with full charge of BP, and the 550 gr. bullet, just to "experience" that. But I'm not a recoil fan, so will also work up loads that hopefully work well, with less recoil.

waiting for the range report. hopefully with some video so we can experience some vicarious recoil.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:21 pm

I'm waiting too! Just sent off payment last week, so hope to see it by next weekend! Then there's loading ammo, and all the other prep before any shooting starts! Might decide to put it on my display at our annual two day show here at OAC on the 27th-28th of this month. Doesn't quite fit in with my Ballard schuetzen rifle display, but it is a long range target rifle.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:53 pm

Well the gun and accessories shipped the same moment, but as often happens different size packages arrive different days! No Ballard yet, but the other items arrived! Dies, mold, bullets, bunch of lathe turned brass!
I also received Bill's generous gift of rolling paper to make up the patched bullets! Thanks Bill!

The mold is a brass mold that's a nose pour, with hollow base. It's adjustable weight, so need to determine what the range of weight is? Guessing just under 500 gr. to probably 535 grain. Not sure of the mold maker, as it's not marked. But it is marked "442", so guessing it will patch up to around .446".

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:53 pm

I'm starting to worry about USPS! Those guys can screw up just about anything. Rifle was sent 2nd day Priority, registered, insured, on Monday. Big bucks to get it sent quickly so they could have less time to mess up. It originally estimated a Wed. delivery. Close, but not 2 days I paid for. Then this morning it says, "delayed".
Tell me how a package can leave Illinois, stop in Missouri, stop in Kansas City, stop in Denver, and make it to Oregon in 2 days? 4 days so far, and now I'm just hoping it gets here in one piece!

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:03 am

marlinman93 wrote:I'm starting to worry about USPS! Those guys can screw up just about anything. Rifle was sent 2nd day Priority, registered, insured, on Monday. Big bucks to get it sent quickly so they could have less time to mess up. It originally estimated a Wed. delivery. Close, but not 2 days I paid for. Then this morning it says, "delayed".
Tell me how a package can leave Illinois, stop in Missouri, stop in Kansas City, stop in Denver, and make it to Oregon in 2 days? 4 days so far, and now I'm just hoping it gets here in one piece!

Vall,

I learned the hard way that Priority Mail is not guaranteed 2 (or 3) day delivery. It can take 7 days. I'm sure it will show up by the end of the week.

Here's the tidbit I found from USPS when I had the same issue.

What causes some confusion is the fact that Priority Mail Express is a guaranteed delivery date similar to services from UPS and Fedex, while the Priority Mail 1 Day, 2 Day, and 3 Day dates are not guaranteed - they are estimates based on the package's departure and ship-to location, a concept that many have trouble grasping when first encountering the delivery time designations.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:14 am

I certainly hope it's just USPS being slow and casual. I never have understood why they offer 1-2-3 day service, if those categories mean nothing? Why not just be honest and say it takes a week, and if it happens to arrive in 3 days everyone is happy? Seems they simply put this out there to compete with UPS and FedEx in advertising, but not compete in reality. Unfortunately USPS charges extra for a service they don't guarantee.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:07 pm

I'm pretty excited to get this one! One of those holy grail guns, that isn't often seen, and not on my radar screen either! John Dutcher shows 11 known serial numbers for the #7, and this is #12. This just arrived after the USPS fiasco that promised quick shipping, but delivered the long, slow, many stops route!

The Ballard is a first year 1875 #7 Long Range, in .44-100 Ballard caliber. Gorgeous bore, and for a 141 year old gun, in pretty decent overall shape. Few handling or character marks, but well cared for!

It has the correct 34" half octagon Creedmoor barrel, and long range vernier sight. The bore is excellent, and the .44-100 cartridge looks like a handful at about 3.75" OAL!

Just need to start the learning curve now!

Dixiejack · Post by **Dixiejack** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Nice rifle Marlinman. Those Ballards are great rifles. I know you will like that cal. What are you going to make the cases out of?

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:49 pm

Dixiejack wrote:Nice rifle Marlinman. Those Ballards are great rifles. I know you will like that cal. What are you going to make the cases out of?

Thanks DJ! The gun came with 180 Rocky Mountain Cartridge lathe turned brass. 150 unfired, and 30 once fired. So wont need to make any, and these should last a couple lifetimes!

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:51 pm

You're a fortunate man, Vall. That is a very special rifle. Hope you can make it sing again.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:46 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:You're a fortunate man, Vall. That is a very special rifle. Hope you can make it sing again.

I already paper patched a few bullets Bill! I made a pattern and need to cut a metal template so I can cut the papers quicker, and easier. But I did roll one, and it came out pretty decent. Thanks again for the paper!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:53 am

That is amazing.

It has its own magnetism, like it talks to you, eh?

Would you mind posting pictures of the open action?

Do you have a u2ube acct? It would be sweet to see that rifle discharged.

What's his name?

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:11 am

I was going to call you yesterday to see if it arrived, but I had a gut feeling it did.

It was worth the wait.

Congrats.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:42 am

Amazing thread - great posts! I know practically nothing about those great old Ballards and other long range grandpa classics, so this is really a saver for my archives.

Thank you all - and congratulations, MarlinMan. And thanks for the terrific photos - and link, Grizz.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:46 am

Grizz wrote:That is amazing.

It has its own magnetism, like it talks to you, eh?

Would you mind posting pictures of the open action?

Do you have a u2ube acct? It would be sweet to see that rifle discharged.

What's his name?

Thanks Griff! No youtube account, and not extremely computer savvy, so doubt I'll get video! Haven't named guns before, so I stick with what Ballard named them.
Action open:

It's a dropping block action, but a pivoting dropping block. So it pivots back as it drops, which when closing gives it a camming effect to help seat a cartridge.

Here's a fun comparison picture to give an idea of the size of the .44-100 Ballard cartridge!
L to R:
.38-55-255 gr.
.45-70-500 gr.
.40-70-400 gr. Ballard
.44-100-475 gr. Ballard

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:48 am

jdad wrote:I was going to call you yesterday to see if it arrived, but I had a gut feeling it did.

It was worth the wait.

Congrats.

Thanks David! It was fairly quick, but still nerve wracking to wait and hope it got here safely!

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:55 pm

Had time to do some checking, and playing today with the #7! Slugged the bore and was surprised to see it is about halfway between a .44-100 and a .45-70! It slugged to .452" with a soft lead ball. Just to be sure I grabbed a .446" bullet and it dropped into the neck of a sized case! Then I took a .458" bullet and ran it through my .452" sizer, and it fit the neck perfectly with good tension.
I then set up the dies to see how deep the 500 grain bullet would need to seat and chamber. Since the factory .44-100 was a 500-535 grain bullet, figured it should work. Well sort of. In order to seat a 500 gr. bullet, it ends up with about 60% of the bullet seated into the case, or the ogive hits the rifling!

The left is the case I got with the gun, and the right is the 500 grain sized and seated, plus the bullet itself beside it. I think I'll fire up the furnace and cast some of my 405 gr. bullets. They may have a more pointed nose shape, and possibly seat out farther. They'll also be easier on the shoulder!
I'm actually glad the bore slugs larger, as sizing down .45-70 bullets will give me a lot more variety of bullets to try, and figure out what the #7 likes best!

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:04 pm

That .446 bullet you dropped thru the bore... Is it for the old Mausers ? If it is, those run at about 385gr. If you want to go to the trouble of Patching then GG bullets are known to well take a patch. I'd wager you could prolly patch one to .452 or there abouts and wind up with something a little easier on the shoulder. Oh man I'm envious of the fun you're having! Good Luck!

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:57 pm

Ben_Rumson wrote:That .446 bullet you dropped thru the bore... Is it for the old Mausers ? If it is, those run at about 385gr. If you want to go to the trouble of Patching then GG bullets are known to well take a patch. I'd wager you could prolly patch one to .452 or there abouts and wind up with something a little easier on the shoulder. Oh man I'm envious of the fun you're having! Good Luck!

Ben, my .446" bullet is a cast lead 295 gr. bullet I use in my Rolling Block, original chambering of .44-77 Sharps Bottleneck. I had planned on trying it, if it fit, but will stick with grease groove .45-70 bullets run through my Lyman lubrisizer to make them .452" instead.
Supposed to be another 100+ degree day tomorrow, but if I can get outside early, I might get 4-5 different weight bullets cast, and then spend the hot part of the day lubing, sizing, and making up some loads to try soon! Need to cast some 300 gr. .410" for my .40-63 Rigby Ballard too, so maybe get a bunch of casting in early!