A Question for the Ages - Medieval Armor.

[Panzercat]

Maybe some of the sages here can put this somewhat heated debate between a friend and myself to rest.

Medieval Field plate is said to have consisted of three layers-- The outer plate itself, a chain mail layer and padding for impact resistance. My contention is that 5.56 NATO green tip has enough horsepower to punch through all three layers and still have enough left over at the end of the day to mortally wound the wearer. It is, after all a round rated to punch through an East German helmet at 600y and can zip through 1/4in welding steel.

He, on the other hand, insists that one of the three layers will stop this round. I find this to be unlikely in a round that can produce 3100fps and 1300ftlbs of energy. The most I can give on this argument is that maybe it will fragment on the way in, but that's pushing it in my opinion. Medieval armor isn't AR500, so what? Honestly, I'm thinking any rifle round made in the last 100 years would produce similar results, but he's insistent he's seen the stuff made and the mimimum entry level would be a .308 style round. And I'm thinking that's massive overkill.

Any thoughts on the matter?
About the best i can find on the nets is hand gun calibers against simple plate armor, not the layers stuff as described above.

[Grizz]

can't answer, but I thought that armor was vulnerable to the British longbow.

bodkins.png

some testing info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

and the famous reality test:

http://www.longbow-archers.com/historyagincourt.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

and the 600yr anniversary with real volly fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EvdsUkbm7w

[Rusty]

I don't know about the armor but I can tell you that in 1977 when I got my first AR-15 I shot it at an old International pick up truck, about a '62 IIRC. A 55 gr. hollow point went thru the bed up against the cab, thru the back of the cab, thru the seat, thru the dash, the firewall and exited the front of the hood.

[piller]

I have seen 5.56 punch through a Kevlar helmet at 100 yards. Captain David Maxwell did it in 1988 at a range just to show us grunts that the K-pot would not stop a bullet. I seriously doubt that a knight could wear armor heavy enough to stop green tip ball ammo. It chews up concrete backstops easily.

[Grizz]

Oh man, a 62 International?

That was a TRUCK

[gamekeeper]

This does not answer the question but interesting video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfcRLT18IY

[Tycer]

Definitive answer:

http://doeschainmailstopbullets.singleserving.info

[Pete44ru]

Definitive answer: http://doeschainmailstopbullets.singleserving.info

This.


You can tell your friend:
- Otherwise, they'd still be using it, doofus....





FWIW, Medieval armor was quickly abandoned shortly after the 1st MATCHLOCK hand cannons (handgonnes) came into general use/warfare - never mind modern metallic cartridge ammo.





Chain mail & helmets were still retained, though - as every enemy didn't have a firearm, and folks still needed some protection from swords & arrows.


.

[Malamute]

I have no doubt any 5.56 load will shoot through the armor mentioned. Ive also shot through cars enough that I wouldn't feel the slightest bit of faith that old time armor would stop any modern high velocity bullets. Pistol bullets? Maybe.

Green tip seems to be put on some sort of pedestal as a super penetrating load. Its NOT armor piercing in any way, its supposed to be slightly enhanced over the old lead core 55 gr loads, on helmets, at 500 yards. THSAT was the criteria. It aint that great otherwise. There IS a true 5.56 armor piercing load, and green tip ISNT it. From what information Ive seen, its so-so. It doesn't work as well on some modern armor as well as 55 gr m193 ball shot from a 20" barrel. In LE testing all sorts of available loads on car glass and doors, I think its in the middle of the pack, good quality bonded open point or soft point loads hold together better in some examples.

[piller]

I know that the green tip ball ammo is not armor piercing. It is what is most commonly used by the U.S. Army, and is a ailable sometimes to civilians. It makes a good reference point because it is available and makes for easily duplicated tests. The question did not seem to be whether or not armor piercing rounds would do the job. I hope you didn't mistake what I posted above to say that I considered green tip ball ammo to be armor piercing.

[Panzercat]

I know that the green tip ball ammo is not armor piercing. It is what is most commonly used by the U.S. Army, and is a ailable sometimes to civilians. It makes a good reference point because it is available and makes for easily duplicated tests. The question did not seem to be whether or not armor piercing rounds would do the job. I hope you didn't mistake what I posted above to say that I considered green tip ball ammo to be armor piercing.

Which is what I was also driving at. There are certainly better rounds for the job, but green tip is a convenient, nearly universal benchmark... Though I'm pretty sure even crappy 55gr Tula range trash would do the job.
The sad irony is the guy pushing this claims he's ex-Army.

[jeepnik]

Definitive answer:

http://doeschainmailstopbullets.singleserving.info

Got me

[Buck Elliott]

Read Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".

[AJMD429]

I seriously doubt it would reliably stop a 22 LR, if the criteria was that "one of the three layers will stop this round".

The only round I might give a chance would be well-made chain mail, but it still has openings, and I wouldn't volunteer to be the test dummy.

[Malamute]

I know that the green tip ball ammo is not armor piercing. It is what is most commonly used by the U.S. Army, and is a ailable sometimes to civilians. It makes a good reference point because it is available and makes for easily duplicated tests. The question did not seem to be whether or not armor piercing rounds would do the job. I hope you didn't mistake what I posted above to say that I considered green tip ball ammo to be armor piercing.

I wasn't addressing that comment to you, just making a generalization, many seem to think green tip is some super duty round compared to other things. I think probably any commercial 223 or 5.56 load will perforate the armor mentioned, some may think that being green tip it had some great advantage over 193 or anything else.

[Sixgun]

It's SPEED that penetrates. Yea, lots of other variables like construction of the bullet help out too.

One day, many years ago, (late seventies) when the .223 was a sporting round, an old timer was showing this to me at a gunclub. The club had just erected steel plates on an angle to stop bullets at the 100 meter berm. Shooters were blasting at it with all kinds of stuff that regular guys use, successfully deflecting the bullets downward.

My bud shot a 5 shot group with a .220 Swift and every bullet zipped on through. I can't remember the specifics as to thickness but beings these guys were WW 2 vets....and thrifty, they probably used 1/4" soft plate.

I personally remember one time I was digging a hole for a gate post and I could NOT put this post anywhere else. As I was digging I hit a BIG rock to which I could not dig around. Soooooo.......I went into the house and got out my 03A3 with 6 rounds of WW 2 dated black tip 30-06........I layed down on the ground.....pointed the rifle downward and fired the 6 rounds. Well, I got the post where I wanted it.

That old time armor plate was only good for big fat soft lead bullets going 1,000 fps.-----6

[Panzercat]

I seriously doubt it would reliably stop a 22 LR, if the criteria was that "one of the three layers will stop this round".

The only round I might give a chance would be well-made chain mail, but it still has openings, and I wouldn't volunteer to be the test dummy.

I have found a few clips with people shooting .22lr at generic chest plates and helms. It leaves a dent and not much else. That said, the quality of the plate is unknown (vs medieval metallurgy) and that's also a dent in metal. The person beneath it isn't going to be happy.

[piller]

I know that the green tip ball ammo is not armor piercing. It is what is most commonly used by the U.S. Army, and is a ailable sometimes to civilians. It makes a good reference point because it is available and makes for easily duplicated tests. The question did not seem to be whether or not armor piercing rounds would do the job. I hope you didn't mistake what I posted above to say that I considered green tip ball ammo to be armor piercing.

I wasn't addressing that comment to you, just making a generalization, many seem to think green tip is some super duty round compared to other things. I think probably any commercial 223 or 5.56 load will perforate the armor mentioned, some may think that being green tip it had some great advantage over 193 or anything else.

I would be surprised if a 62 grain fmj from any good manufacturer would fail to penetrate. The grain weight could be lower, or higher, but the fmj has a reputation for penetration and damage to backstops. Most ranges refuse to allow it, at least those anywhere near me. I have seen plate armor and chain mail in museums. Neither of which seems thick enough to stop most rifle bullets. .22lr is certainly a low powered round. If it dents the armor, quality of most medieval armor is probably less than with modern metallurgy, then twice the velocity and fmj should go right on through.

[sore shoulder]

I'm pretty confident just about any 5.56 will go through both sides of that armor mail and pad

[jeepnik]

Read Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".

As the man said, "there are three types of lies. Lies, darned lies and statistics". He didn't include works of literary fiction lies. Though I really did like the movie with Bing Crosby.

[harry]

Proof
Have any of you guys heard of a mid-evil knight being killed or injured by a .223 round??
I rest my case.

[Panzercat]

Proof
Have any of you guys heard of a mid-evil knight being killed or injured by a .223 round??
I rest my case.

Hmmm. He has a point.

[Old Ironsights]

Proof
Have any of you guys heard of a mid-evil knight being killed or injured by a .223 round??
I rest my case.

Hmmm. He has a point.

But... but...

That means...

I AM INVINCIBLE TO BLASTERS, PHASERS, LIGHT SABERS and DEATHNSTAR PLANETARY ANNIHILATION!!!!

MUWAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!! BOW BEFORE YOUR OVERLORD!.... errr... why aren't y'all already dead by the aforementioned?...

Never mind....

[Malamute]

I recall seeing an article in the old SOF magazine about a Russian armor vest from Afghanistan in the 80s. I think it was believed to be titanium fish scale style plates overlapping. The person wearing it was shot at a downward angle through the neck hole of the vest, they apparently knew he was armored, but the 303 round went cleanly through the back of the vest, no problem.

Ive shot enough cars with 5.56 through enough layers of metal that I sure wouldn't want to rely on old style thing plate armor to protect me, no matter the backer material, unless ceramic plate and Kevlar.

[gregg]

Oh man, a 62 International?

That was a TRUCK

Sad

[Griff]

Definitive answer: http://doeschainmailstopbullets.singleserving.info

This.
You can tell your friend:
- Otherwise, they'd still be using it, doofus....


FWIW, Medieval armor was quickly abandoned shortly after the 1st MATCHLOCK hand cannons (handgonnes) came into general use/warfare - never mind modern metallic cartridge ammo.


Chain mail & helmets were still retained, though - as every enemy didn't have a firearm, and folks still needed some protection from swords & arrows.
.

...YEP!

[MrMurphy]

Ah, something where I can speak authoritatively.....

I'm a student of medieval history for over 20 years. Visited over 30 castles. I've worn modern reproductions (the good museum level kind) of many types of armor, as well as fought in it (blunt weapons).

Everything from Roman armor, early medieval to Renaissance level stuff.

A plate harness (what you would consider a classic knight in armor, which is actually late 14th century) was designed to stop pointy stuff. The base layer, not counting underwear, was an arming coat and pants. Think a quilted jacket and pants, because that's what they are. These had "points" (tie downs) to which the armor was secured. Mail (not chain mail, which is a contradiction in terms) was used on the areas that could not take plate, basically, the armpits.

A man trained and fitted with a good harness (which came in various grades, from the "GI issue" level of sorta-fits-you stuff, to the full harness, which was fitted individually to a wearer and measured to them) was nearly invulnerable. Thin pointy objects and hard hits from blunt weapons were what killed you. The "estoc" or tuck, basically a sword with no edge, one big pointy bit of steel, was made to attack the joints and seams. Warhammers and halberds would bash their way through or turn the wearer to jelly.

Guns back then shot a fat lead ball at low velocity. Good plate was "proofed" by shooting it at a known distance, usually with a pistol (back then, a matchlock or wheellock), leaving a scar.

At close ranges (where the armor wearer could ginsu the shooter) a musket could definitely penetrate plate, as could a crossbow or longbow out to say 100 yards if you were lucky and hit the right spot. The problem was getting the shot in on a moving target on a fast moving horse.

Earlier armor, mail, was worn over a padded coat (the gambeson) which like the quilted coat, helped stop the blow. When armor started becoming less effective, the regular grunts on the battlefield often only wore the padded "jack" (where the word jacket comes from) which were literally "puffy quilted coats" like modern snow wear, only more so.

The cotton padding would stop arrows, bolts, and sometimes even musketballs and was light and allowed the user to be agile (and even harder to hit). They would also stop a sword slash though not a stab. The English civil war era "buff coats" of thick leather served the same purpose.

And despite what people think, a man in full harness was anything but slow and unwieldy. Knights used to dance in armor to show off their prowess, athleticism and general manliness to the ladies, and as a way to brag to others. It was far from unknown for a knight in decent shape to jump into the saddle directly from the ground in full armor (again, to show off), and military saddles of the time had much higher cantles and seatbacks (can't remember the term right now). Plate armor being tied to the limbs fully distributes the weight across the body unlike current body armor.

So no, any current ammo would probably zip right through plate unless it was a glancing hit or at long range. 5.56mm FMJ of any type, M80 7.62 ball would likely go through the armor and the wearer on both sides at closer ranges, as the armor was never meant to defeat it and is shaped incorrectly.

That said modern armor plate worn in plate carriers which IS intended to do so will stop five or six rounds of 5.56 or 2-3 7.62 at 15 feet. You won't be happy but you'll be alive.


Edit- Tournament jousting armor (totally nonfunctional for anything but the joust), hit on the left side (which took the hit from the lance powered by a horse) might stop a couple rounds from the right angle.....but only in that one spot. Even then, I wouldn't trust it much, as a large lance head powered by a horse is not the same as a 62 gr bullet going a few thousand feet per second.

Edit#2 per post above...medieval armor was not totally abandoned. The cavalry (who primarily worried about swords and lances) kept metal breast and backplates in use right up until WW1. They knew it wouldn't stop bullets, but sabres, yes.

[BAGTIC]

Read Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".

As the man said, "there are three types of lies. Lies, darned lies and statistics". He didn't include works of literary fiction lies. Though I really did like the movie with Bing Crosby.

He missed the fourth. Political campaign rhetoric.

[piller]

Thanks for the information MrMurphy. I like how there are a bunch of knowledgeable people on this forum.

[Panzercat]

Ah, something where I can speak authoritatively.....

I'm a student of medieval history for over 20 years. Visited over 30 castles. I've worn modern reproductions (the good museum level kind) of many types of armor, as well as fought in it (blunt weapons).

Everything from Roman armor, early medieval to Renaissance level stuff.

A plate harness (what you would consider a classic knight in armor, which is actually late 14th century) was designed to stop pointy stuff. The base layer, not counting underwear, was an arming coat and pants. Think a quilted jacket and pants, because that's what they are. These had "points" (tie downs) to which the armor was secured. Mail (not chain mail, which is a contradiction in terms) was used on the areas that could not take plate, basically, the armpits.

A man trained and fitted with a good harness (which came in various grades, from the "GI issue" level of sorta-fits-you stuff, to the full harness, which was fitted individually to a wearer and measured to them) was nearly invulnerable. Thin pointy objects and hard hits from blunt weapons were what killed you. The "estoc" or tuck, basically a sword with no edge, one big pointy bit of steel, was made to attack the joints and seams. Warhammers and halberds would bash their way through or turn the wearer to jelly.

Guns back then shot a fat lead ball at low velocity. Good plate was "proofed" by shooting it at a known distance, usually with a pistol (back then, a matchlock or wheellock), leaving a scar.

At close ranges (where the armor wearer could ginsu the shooter) a musket could definitely penetrate plate, as could a crossbow or longbow out to say 100 yards if you were lucky and hit the right spot. The problem was getting the shot in on a moving target on a fast moving horse.

Earlier armor, mail, was worn over a padded coat (the gambeson) which like the quilted coat, helped stop the blow. When armor started becoming less effective, the regular grunts on the battlefield often only wore the padded "jack" (where the word jacket comes from) which were literally "puffy quilted coats" like modern snow wear, only more so.

The cotton padding would stop arrows, bolts, and sometimes even musketballs and was light and allowed the user to be agile (and even harder to hit). They would also stop a sword slash though not a stab. The English civil war era "buff coats" of thick leather served the same purpose.

And despite what people think, a man in full harness was anything but slow and unwieldy. Knights used to dance in armor to show off their prowess, athleticism and general manliness to the ladies, and as a way to brag to others. It was far from unknown for a knight in decent shape to jump into the saddle directly from the ground in full armor (again, to show off), and military saddles of the time had much higher cantles and seatbacks (can't remember the term right now). Plate armor being tied to the limbs fully distributes the weight across the body unlike current body armor.

So no, any current ammo would probably zip right through plate unless it was a glancing hit or at long range. 5.56mm FMJ of any type, M80 7.62 ball would likely go through the armor and the wearer on both sides at closer ranges, as the armor was never meant to defeat it and is shaped incorrectly.

That said modern armor plate worn in plate carriers which IS intended to do so will stop five or six rounds of 5.56 or 2-3 7.62 at 15 feet. You won't be happy but you'll be alive.


Edit- Tournament jousting armor (totally nonfunctional for anything but the joust), hit on the left side (which took the hit from the lance powered by a horse) might stop a couple rounds from the right angle.....but only in that one spot. Even then, I wouldn't trust it much, as a large lance head powered by a horse is not the same as a 62 gr bullet going a few thousand feet per second.

Edit#2 per post above...medieval armor was not totally abandoned. The cavalry (who primarily worried about swords and lances) kept metal breast and backplates in use right up until WW1. They knew it wouldn't stop bullets, but sabres, yes.

Winning post of thread. Thank you for your expert insight, Sir.

[rossim92]

If i am not mistaken, the movie "fist full of dollars" shows one of the bad guys shooting a statue suit of armor getting shot in the heart countless times. Clint Eastwood never batted an eye though when watching!

[Old Ironsights]

Suit of Armor </> big hunk of boiler/stove plate.

Assuming the levergun was a .44-40, it would have no problem punching through an empty cuirass, but I'm not familiar with a BP .44-40 that will punch through boilerplate...

Oh... and Clint staggers appropriately with each hit...

And Ramon? He no like Zombies dat say "aim for the heart"... (where the boiler plate covers...)

[jeepnik]

Ah, something where I can speak authoritatively.....

I'm a student of medieval history for over 20 years. Visited over 30 castles. I've worn modern reproductions (the good museum level kind) of many types of armor, as well as fought in it (blunt weapons).

Everything from Roman armor, early medieval to Renaissance level stuff.

A plate harness (what you would consider a classic knight in armor, which is actually late 14th century) was designed to stop pointy stuff. The base layer, not counting underwear, was an arming coat and pants. Think a quilted jacket and pants, because that's what they are. These had "points" (tie downs) to which the armor was secured. Mail (not chain mail, which is a contradiction in terms) was used on the areas that could not take plate, basically, the armpits.

A man trained and fitted with a good harness (which came in various grades, from the "GI issue" level of sorta-fits-you stuff, to the full harness, which was fitted individually to a wearer and measured to them) was nearly invulnerable. Thin pointy objects and hard hits from blunt weapons were what killed you. The "estoc" or tuck, basically a sword with no edge, one big pointy bit of steel, was made to attack the joints and seams. Warhammers and halberds would bash their way through or turn the wearer to jelly.

Guns back then shot a fat lead ball at low velocity. Good plate was "proofed" by shooting it at a known distance, usually with a pistol (back then, a matchlock or wheellock), leaving a scar.

At close ranges (where the armor wearer could ginsu the shooter) a musket could definitely penetrate plate, as could a crossbow or longbow out to say 100 yards if you were lucky and hit the right spot. The problem was getting the shot in on a moving target on a fast moving horse.

Earlier armor, mail, was worn over a padded coat (the gambeson) which like the quilted coat, helped stop the blow. When armor started becoming less effective, the regular grunts on the battlefield often only wore the padded "jack" (where the word jacket comes from) which were literally "puffy quilted coats" like modern snow wear, only more so.

The cotton padding would stop arrows, bolts, and sometimes even musketballs and was light and allowed the user to be agile (and even harder to hit). They would also stop a sword slash though not a stab. The English civil war era "buff coats" of thick leather served the same purpose.

And despite what people think, a man in full harness was anything but slow and unwieldy. Knights used to dance in armor to show off their prowess, athleticism and general manliness to the ladies, and as a way to brag to others. It was far from unknown for a knight in decent shape to jump into the saddle directly from the ground in full armor (again, to show off), and military saddles of the time had much higher cantles and seatbacks (can't remember the term right now). Plate armor being tied to the limbs fully distributes the weight across the body unlike current body armor.

So no, any current ammo would probably zip right through plate unless it was a glancing hit or at long range. 5.56mm FMJ of any type, M80 7.62 ball would likely go through the armor and the wearer on both sides at closer ranges, as the armor was never meant to defeat it and is shaped incorrectly.

That said modern armor plate worn in plate carriers which IS intended to do so will stop five or six rounds of 5.56 or 2-3 7.62 at 15 feet. You won't be happy but you'll be alive.


Edit- Tournament jousting armor (totally nonfunctional for anything but the joust), hit on the left side (which took the hit from the lance powered by a horse) might stop a couple rounds from the right angle.....but only in that one spot. Even then, I wouldn't trust it much, as a large lance head powered by a horse is not the same as a 62 gr bullet going a few thousand feet per second.

Edit#2 per post above...medieval armor was not totally abandoned. The cavalry (who primarily worried about swords and lances) kept metal breast and backplates in use right up until WW1. They knew it wouldn't stop bullets, but sabres, yes.

Thanks you sir, that was a clear and concise response and I learned a lot from it.

[MrMurphy]

Ironically the mid Hundred Years War stuff, where plate wasn't fully in use, had a few more layers, ie padding tgen mail and individual pieces of plate. The "coat of plates " very common in that time was a few hundred smaller plates riveted to a padded coat and worn over a mix of mail and padding. Not quite as good as 1 giant bit of steel but easier to produce and fix. Depending on the load and range, Shield in the way or not, etc.... even modern rounds might not ALWAYS get through. But typically especially inside say 100m.... dead guy in armor is the result.

[piller]

I have seen the movies whwew someone puts a thick piece of steel from a stove or something similar under their shirt to stop the bullets. Depending on the thickness of the steel, it may work. That thickness of steel would sure get heavy to wear all day. I would rather not be in a position to be shot.

[MrMurphy]

Sort of like a line from a Terry Pratchett book (satire and fiction) where everyone is signing up and joining units (the nation is going to war). One old sergeant (police type) who had served in the infantry is relating his experiences to the young guys. Shows them their equivalent of the Bible and relates how his grandpa wore it in his pocket and it stopped an arrow from hitting him in the heart. Everyone is like wow, cool story, lucky man, etc..


Sergeant then says "Shame about the other 17 arrows though........."