Basic Question - "Rifle" vs "Carbine"

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:34 pm

I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.

So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.

Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?

If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?

And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???

I'm [often

] confused...........

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:37 pm

AJMD429 wrote:I always thought of a 'carbine' as a shorter, handier, version of a shoulder-fired firearm, which in full-size format would be a 'rifle'.

So, to me a 24" barreled levergun would typically be one I'd call a 'rifle', and a 16" one would be a 'carbine'.....regardless of the type of barrel-band(s) it had.

Is the real definition of 'carbine' more along the lines of 'a short rifle' or does it depend on the barrel bands...?

If the latter, then are all the leverguns using the same convention/build for their short versus long guns...?

And if it is based on the 'band', what about 'carbines' that are bolt-action or semi-auto...???

I'm [often ] confused...........

I'm blissfully ignorant. They are "all" rifles to me and some are just shorter, and lighter.....

I'm pretty sure no one sez, Just a second, Paw, let me get my carbine before we head out.

pshort · Post by **pshort** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:40 pm

Howdy Doc,
I guess I'd call the shorter ones "carbines" lever, bolt, whatever...
I , in most cases, prefer carbines to longer stuff because of maneuverability...

YMMV,

Paul

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:16 pm

Silly question Doc, they're called GUNS!!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:52 pm

I'll go with whatever the manufacturer calls them. For instance Marlin calls the short barreled 1895 a Guide Gun. So although iris generally classed as a carbine to me it's a Guide Gun.

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:29 pm

Griff wrote:Silly question Doc, they're called GUNS!!

This is my rifle, this is my gun!

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:26 pm

Doc,
Even before I read the other responses, I knew my head was gonna hurt on this one. Please, go to bed.

----6

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:39 pm

Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:55 am

Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV

but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:03 am

I guess that makes my 16" riFAL a carbine?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:17 am

Well, this is what I was taught:

Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less

This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.

The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:20 am

Griff, these things were decided by Winchester ... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:36 am

So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO!

We've argued (gentlemanly discussed for the fairer sex), the difference. But no one's got it right. Doc, the difference lies in use. And it is military in source, as all weapons were originally developed for military use... civilian use was a fall back when the military failed to pick up the latest and greatest development.

Rifles are used by the infantry. Carbines by mounted. Same weapon, just different lengths. Generally speaking, the shorter length are developed for use in specialized (cavalry being among the first of these), units.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:38 am

Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:45 am

marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.

But Winchester marketed my 20" '66 Centennial" mdl 94 as a "carbine"... even tho' it has their traditional "rifle" furniture on it. And to make matters worse, they marketed the 7-30 Waters mdl 94 with it's 24" barrel and traditional "carbine" furniture as a "rifle"...

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:52 am

This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:57 am

Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less

So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO

And both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...

P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:42 am

mikld wrote:Yep, the rifle vs carbine designations run like Old Savage's post;
Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less
So... let me get this straight... my 28" Hawken is a rifle, but my 24" Jager is also a rifle... no, no, NO
And both of Griff's guns have barrels over 20" so, yep they be rifles...

P.S.; A lot of thing's names were determined many, many years ago, but in today's world tradition and history does not matter, it's what something is called today...

And while that may be true for "MOST" of Winchester's guns, it is not universal... for my Jager is a "carabiner", or carbine.

ri·fle1
/ˈrīfəl/
noun: rifle; plural noun: rifles
1. a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.

car·bine
/ˈkärˌbīn,-ˌbēn/
noun: carbine; plural noun: carbines
a light automatic rifle.
•historical
a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:59 am

Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.

This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.

The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.

All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:40 pm

My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast

God Bless.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:55 pm

rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.

J Miller wrote:Well, this is what I was taught:

Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less

This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.

The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun

Joe

Joe is my hero!!!!

Brad

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:00 pm

Griff wrote:
Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV
but... but... my 20" AR is called a rifle, and my 16" AR is called a carbine... it seems... there are NO hard and fast rules. Hmmm... wonder what I should call my 24" AR? Besides "Accurate"?

Long rifle?

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:25 pm

Sixgun wrote:
Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.

This is the best answer and how the term "carbine" originated. You need two versions of the same gun and the carbine version (shorter of the two) differentiates the difference.

The ATF calls any long gun with a rifled barrel longer the 16" and an overall length of (I can't remember) a rifle long gun. The word "carbine" is not discussed.

All of the other BS made by manufacturers and what they call their guns is just marketing.------6

I agree. There is no hard and fast rule. The only across the board definition of a carbine is a shorter version of a rifle. Every other interpretation is just that.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:43 pm

Booger Bill wrote:This had to start many years ago probably with military guns. Most had two versions such as the long and short barreled versions of Sharps, Springfield etc. Short for the cavalry and long for the ground pounders. Simple as that.

That's what I go by, rather than type of sight or barrel band or whatever (though I realize that differs from Official Winchester jargon). So pretty much any gun I have that is longer than my Marlin 1894, I consider a 'rifle' and the rest 'carbines'.

Old Savage wrote:... ARs do not count. Now you know that. And this is Leverguns.com. not EBR.com Now just go look at those 30 some 94s and fresh yourself as to the source of truth. Maybe you better say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers while you are st it.

THAT however is my favorite 'answer'....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:46 pm

J Miller wrote:Well, this is what I was taught:

Rifle = over20"
Carbine = over 16" to 20"
Trapper = 16" and less

This was basically the same for lever and other types of civilian shoulder fired weapons.

The military screwed it all up when they brought out the Mattel toy. The rifle is really a carbine and the carbine could be used as a hand gun

Joe

However I also like this answer. Even with "EBR's" just substitute SBR for Trapper and it is still useful with today's weapons.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:52 pm

Now Griff, did carbines precede automatic rifles?

Lever actions changed the playing field and created a new firearms culture. For for one thing, for the first time civilians had more fire power than the military. The light portability of repeating power created a new era. One cowboy for instace could stand against a group of Indians. The revolver created a similar change enhanced by cartridges.

The M16 I used in the early 70s was a carbine in handling characteristics. What they have now in some formats qualifify as Trappers or almost subtrappers.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:15 pm

There are all sorts of exceptions, or later marketing ploys done by manufacturers. So it might be prudent to look at the era of a gun, and how that maker played with the categories then. There are also cases like the Savage 99 that even in early years are tough to tell a carbine from a short rifle, unless you know them well enough to note the barrel weight, sights, and era.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:23 pm

Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:05 pm

rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.

rodeo kid,

Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day

Joe

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:09 pm

Old Savage wrote:Go back far enough and everything rifled is a rifle. I am using terms as they applied to leverguns as developed early on. Seems clearest at this point.

Yep, back to before there were carbines... you're right. But, for purposes of Leverguns, I use the furniture as the determination... AFTER barrel length. Ergo, my 20" '66 Centennial Commemorative is a "short rifle", and the 24" 7-30 Waters is a "rifle"...

and it's 20" carbine version:

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:16 pm

J Miller wrote:
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
rodeo kid,
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe

No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.

And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:26 pm

Griff wrote:
J Miller wrote:
rodeo kid wrote:My gosh Joe(Mr. Miller) You have called the most popular rifle in the country a Mattel toy? I am Aghast God Bless.
rodeo kid,
Waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back when I was a wee lad, the Viet Nam vets and most gun rag writers referred to the M 16 as a Mattel Toy. It kind of became a habit with me. It really is mostly plastic and stamped aluminum after all. Same as the Mattel Toy rifles of the day
Joe
No "stamped" aluminum in the AR-15 or M-16. It is forged aluminum... unlike the post '64 Winchester 94s! Or the stamped tin of the AK or it's derivatives. We didn't say it was a Mattel "toy"... we called it the gun made by Mattel.

And Kid, back then it was far from the "...most popular rifle in the country"... That didn't happen until more than 20 years after it's introduction. And happened only with the generation that grew up with it...

and they've even got that all messed up with all those weird acronyms like RECCE, SBR, SPR, M4 SOPMOD, MK12, etc.

My head hurts. Can't we just call them bang sticks?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:16 pm

marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.

That's what the Brazillions

call their 20" 1892s...

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:26 pm

The word "carbine" means rifle.

The word "Trapper" identifies an occupation.

So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:35 pm

FWiedner wrote:The word "carbine" means rifle.

The word "Trapper" identifies an occupation.

So... There are rifles and short rifles, and some short rifles are/were used by Trappers.

I don't think anyone knows the etymology of the term "Trapper" as coined by Winchester in choosing that term over some other word.

Old Ironsights wrote:
marlinman93 wrote:Rifles with short barrels aren't carbines. They are short rifles.
That's what the Brazillions call their 20" 1892s...

Really, read the description:

The Rossi R92 Round Barrel delivers shorter, lighter versions of their big brothers with 16 or 20 carbine models. Available in .38/.357, .44 Mag., .45 Colt, .44-40 Win and .454 Casull. The R92 Round Barrel comes in two finish options - Blue and Stainless. All R92 Round Barrel models feature crescent buttplates and an extended front sight.
For brush hunting and wilderness packing, Rossi R92 carbine .454 Casull features optional magazine-tube loading and recoil absorbing butt pad.

(emphasis added)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:37 pm

When I bought mine it was called a "Short Rifle".

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:When I bought mine it was called a "Short Rifle".

Did it look like this:

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:57 pm

Well Griff, here we have another classification - short rifle - hadn't heard that one. I see that is one of Winchester's terms?

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:13 pm

How about a "saddle ring carbine"??????

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:10 pm

Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"?

----6

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:24 pm

Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:29 pm

Griff wrote:
Sixgun wrote:Hey. What length barrel does a revolver have to be in order to call it "snub nosed"? Is it 2" or possibly 3"? I think, but not sure that a true snub nosed revolver does not have a shroud protecting the ejector rod. But then again .....on second thought, a derringer does not even have a cylinder but the barrel..(barrels?) are very short.....so.......does that make a derringer a "snub nose"? ----6

That map ain't no good for me. Since I retired I took the insurance off of my 89 Jeep and the Rubicon Jeep stays in the garage with the cover on it. My wife takes care of all of my needs.

I need a map with a foot print trail with weeds, trees, small stones, etc.----6

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:40 pm

Snub nose, let me think.

Camel73 · Post by **Camel73** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:04 pm

Lol... I'm on my second bag of popcorn

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:22 pm

The term carbine has been around for centuries, since wheellocks were in use.

The Musketeers of fame and legend and many many Disney movies, before they carried muskets as the Mousquetiers du Roi (Royal Musketeers) were the "Carabiniers du Roi", carrying wheellocks, not flintlocks.

The Italian Carabinieri (military police among other things) get their name from carrying carbines as opposed to rifles, similar to many of the other federal police in Europe, most of whom now carry submachine guns.

It generally just means a shorter rifle.

Camel73 · Post by **Camel73** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:10 pm

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:14 pm

Well, here's a 'modern' (really just a slightly shortened 1886 done up in modern steel) levergun company's use of the terms:

Model 89 "Rifle"

Model 90 "Rifle"

Model 89 "Carbine"

Model 90 "Carbine"

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:55 am

As far as I'm concerned, any shoulder fired firearm with a rifled barrel is a rifle. All the other terminology is for books. And marketing.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:36 am

Then what do you call a shotgun with a rifled barrel?

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:08 am

Old Savage wrote:Rifle - 22" and up
Carbine - 20"
Trapper - 16"
YDMV

The Winner!