OT:Father accidentally shoots son while turkey hunting

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:58 pm

I went home from work to wash and wax the Ranger as well as chat with Dad about next weeks plans. While we chatted the TV was on FOX News and some sad news came up.

A Minnesota man was hunting with his 8 year old boy for turkey. He told the boy to sit still while he stalked some birds. Well the boy didn't sit still and while moving was mistaken as a turkey. Poor kid was hit in the chest with one shot and died.

I have remorse for the family loss but I am also angry. When are people going to get through their thick skull that you don't stalk/sneak up on birds?

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the only legal bird in the spring is a bearded gobbler. How can you shoot if you don't see the beard? My Dad commented on that issue.

It makes me sick to hear of such a tragedy.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:57 pm

Not only that, but an 8 y o has the attention span of about 5 minutes. After that they get fidgety and move around. Expecting a child to stay is unreasonable.
Shooting at something you can't identify is beyond stupid.

I feel for the family. It's something the father will never live down.

Joe

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:00 pm

J Miller wrote:Not only that, but an 8 y o has the attention span of about 5 minutes. After that they get fidgety and move around. Expecting a child to stay is unreasonable.
Shooting at something you can't identify is beyond stupid.

I feel for the family. It's something the father will never live down.

Joe

I agree. It's very sad indeed.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:17 pm

Makes one sick.

Joe's right on the money. I can't imagine the hurt that family is feeling but you would think the father of an eight year old would know the little guy wouldn't sit still for long.

Absolutely awful.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:18 pm

Add-on discussion topic: Should the father go to jail?

I say, "YES".

It is ironic that so many people will demand harsh prison terms for criminals who pray on victims unknown to them, but if someone acts with depraved indifference for human life and kills their own family member, somehow that's "enough punishment just by itself" and the liberals amongst us would oppose that person's incarceration. I, for one, think He was serious when He said, "Thou shalt not kill."

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:20 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:Add-on discussion topic: Should the father go to jail?

I say, "YES".

Nope.....every weekend in a Child's Ward. A couple years would do it.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:27 pm

I don't know how you could possibly punish the father any more than what he is going through right now. Jail time wouldn't do anyone any good in this case. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in his shoes other than I wouldn't want to continue living myself, because that kind of hurt would be unimaginable and would never cease.

dkmlever · Post by **dkmlever** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:29 pm

KNOW YOUR TARGET before pulling the trigger. The emotinal pain this man will feel for the rest of his life will be his prison. Pain or no pain there is no excuse for this type of firearm mistake.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:42 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:Add-on discussion topic: Should the father go to jail?

I say, "YES".

It is ironic that so many people will demand harsh prison terms for criminals who pray on victims unknown to them, but if someone acts with depraved indifference for human life and kills their own family member, somehow that's "enough punishment just by itself" and the liberals amongst us would oppose that person's incarceration. I, for one, think He was serious when He said, "Thou shalt not kill."

My wife and I were just debating the same thing. I honestly don't know. It's not like you can punish the guy any more and I don't know what rehabilitation you are going to achieve. You also aren't going to deter him from committing the crime again. So, none of the traditional goals of sentencing are met. (But, how much different is this than the kid - say a 22 year old - that makes a terribly stupid decision and drives drunk and kills someone? I will tell you that person is probably going to prison for negligent homicide.)

All in all a terrible (and preventable) tragedy that has no possibility of a happy or even "fair" ending.

Michael in NH

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:44 pm

Well if he did it with intent I would say yes he should go to jail. However I seriously doubt that is the case. If it was honestly an accident, he and his family will have enough issues to deal with. If it were me, they would have probably found me laying next to him. I cant imagine having to live with that guilt.

Personally, when I take my 11 yr old daughter hunting, I make it a rule that only 1 gun goes with us, unless I holster a pistol just for packing. The whole idea of us being together in the woods is QUALITY TIME first and foremost and then introducing her to a great sport. If I was off in a different location, I might miss getting to watch her attempt to shoot her first squirrel or deer. It is her turn to hunt when I take her with me and she gets 100% of my attention, I have killed more animals than I can remember and while I still enjoy it, the new has worn off.

PaperPatch · Post by **PaperPatch** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:28 pm

The responses to this topic so far are disturbing. Several hundred years ago...it was voices like this that burned witches at the stake.

A prayer seems more appropriate don't ya think?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:55 pm

I'd side with 'no jail' for the reasons others mentioned; not necessary to change his behavior (in fact, I'll bet he becomes an 'anti-gun' spokesman, or at least never wants to touch a gun again), and he should be doing something constructive (being a father to any other children, and a husband to his wife, if she doesn't kill him, or volunteering to help other children in need).

Also, as an accident, if we arrest and jail a parent who leaves a gun unattended, or commits neglegent homicide like this, then we need to jail every single parent who buys the kid a bicycle and the kid later gets hit by a car, or every parent who has a swimming pool or bathtub and one of their kids drowns. I just don't think that is realistic.

The prevention of this kind of thing is more education, making sure that 'guns' and 'hunting' are things talked about in school and learned about so they are as second nature as not sticking a fork in an electric outlet. As far as remediating this specific situation, there is simply nothing the government can add to an already tragic situation. If it had been me, the ONLY reason I'd not have been 'found next to the kid' would be if I had other children I needed to be there for, or if I thought my wife would want to do anything but slit my throat herself. At that point, if she wanted to I think I'd say go ahead.

Absolutely unimaginable grief and guilt. If he is even alive a year from now he's a stronger man than I am.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:09 pm

This story is sad . We assume he doesn't have other children to provide for. This person will never be the same. Jail time doesn't help the family. Actually death of children has a high percentage of divorce because of blame for the childs death, for any cause of death.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:32 pm

I think it is amazing what I am reading here, but I respect each of you as men who have experience with firearms and who have a good sense of right and wrong. However, I disagree with almost all of you on this issue. Sending a criminal to jail does nothing to help any victims of crime. And, if anyone thinks that rehabilitation goals can be met in today's prisons with today's convicts, you need to watch more TV, and read more current events. Nobody is getting rehabilitated in prisons.

All preventable deaths are tragic, and many killers regret what they've done. So that's it then? All a criminal needs to do is show regret and he gets away without jail time? Come on! How many of you would be absolutely howling if some liberal judge intent on making new law from the bench let some criminal go without jail time because he had regret for his accidental actions? Get real.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:42 pm

All jail time would do in this case is potentially prevent a suicide. There is nothing that could be done to punish him further - he is now in a living hell.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:27 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:How many of you would be absolutely howling if some liberal judge intent on making new law from the bench let some criminal go without jail time because he had regret for his accidental actions? Get real.

I guess in my case, I really DO believe this man will be in a living hell which prison couldn't make any worse, and yet I when think of the 'criminal' you speak of some liberal judge releasing as someone without remorse, regardless of how convincing the sobbing is during the trial.

I also don't think of this guy as a 'criminal' in the same sense as someone doing something inherently wrong like robbery, rape, murder, or even something inherently dangerous, like driving drunk. He's more in the category of some idiot who was on their cell phone and ran into someone. Idiotic, stupid, etc., but in THIS case the victim was one of his own, and maybe THAT is what makes a difference.

< . . . I'm just thinking this through out loud, so bear with me . . . >

Here's something else, maybe, that explains 'our' attitudes a bit - supposedly some tribal cultures held that if you killed another person without proper cause, you became the 'property' of their next of kin, whether they needed a father/hunter for the family, a slave, or just wanted to kill you in retribution. In this kind of situation, I don't feel the man's life is in MY hands, or in the government's, but really in the victim's FAMILY'S hands (in this case, his OWN family). If his wife wants him around to provide income, comfort, or help (more carefully

) raise any other children, I can't take that away from her now. On the other hand, if she decided to put a bullet in his head, I'd not fault her one bit. Her call. In that kind of tribal law, and maybe in my own mind, she owns him now.

So, perhaps the better comparison with 'some criminal' would be how we'd feel if someone through blatant carelessness harmed a family member - should they go to jail, perhaps, but if they harmed YOUR family member, and another option vs. jail was that they were 'given' to you, wouldn't that be as good? Let the jury decide if they are guilty, but if so, let the victim's next of kin decide their fate.

Just some 'random thoughts' on a truly horrible situation.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:31 pm

I will pray for the family. It is probably something they will not live down. What a horrible tragedy. Now both mom and dad will blame the "bad gun" he was carrying. He should be ashamed of himself for leaving such a young boy ALONE in the woods.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:52 pm

The tragedy of a slob hunter shooting a hunting partner or a family member is nothing new, but it's still sad.

I don't think the kid's age is a factor at all. I was wandering the woods by myself at that age.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:56 am

The legal proccess will decide whether or not he is guilty of a crime and what punishment he will recieve. It's hard for us to draw very concrete decisions on his guilt from our fact-deficient posistion we are in.

But, in my opinioin, if he has an ounce of humanity in him then there is no prison in the land that could do to him what he has already done to himself.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:30 am

I have no doubt but that he will blame the boy for not obeying.

That situation is exactly the reason my state forbids stalking or "walking up" Wild Turkey.
In my state the only legal method is stationary calling, and every hunter must have a turkey call on their person.
In addition, the hunter must display Hunter Orange when moving - like when changing stand locations or arriving/leaving the hunting area.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:20 am

I believe that if you kill your own child as a result of your own absurd stupidity that the guilt from that alone will surely be enough punishment for 40-lifetimes - jail would be a vacation compared to that anguish.

Anyone who can't have compassion for a horrifying tragedy such as this and needs to blow-hard their opinions of justice needs to be put to sleep.

It is a curse of wisdom to have to let idiot wind-bags live.

Slick13 · Post by **Slick13** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:05 am

BenT wrote:This story is sad . We assume he doesn't have other children to provide for.

I've read that he has two daughters, ages 11 and 12.

Sending to him to prison accomplishes nothing. It was an accident, he's going to be in misery the rest of his life, and he has a wife and children to provide for. All you do by putting him in prison is make life even harder on his family, beat him down even further and increase his chances of suicide, and the prison experience will simply add to the mental problems he's going to have the rest of his life. And you're going to spend a lot of tax payers' money to accomplish all this.

I know a lot of guys here and at other hunting related forums get their children started hunting early. Personally, I wouldn't want a child younger than 12 (hunting age in PA) in the woods, and wouldn't want one younger than 14 or 15 carrying a gun.

~Michael

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:25 am

First, my prayers go out the family...
Second, no charges should be filed against t he father...
He will suffer enough....for the rest of his life
BUT
I can not understand how anyone can make this kind of mistake.
If you cant tell the difference between a human and any game animal
you have no business hunting...
Your suppose to know what your shooting at and the whats behind it!
no clear shot....that means no shooting.
NO EXCEPTIONS

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:39 am

There is no excuse for this act,prosecute the man as a lesson to others who hunt stupid shooting at sounds w/o verifying what they're firing at.My recommendation to the court if I was writing his probation presentencing report would be 6 months in the Co Jail suspended with the provision that he attend Hunter Safety Courses for a year explaining what he did and the mistakes he made that cost his son his life,loss of hunting priviledges and firearms posession for life.BTW I wrote probation reports for 37 years.

Texican · Post by **Texican** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:Add-on discussion topic: Should the father go to jail? I say, "YES". I, for one, think He was serious when He said, "Thou shalt not kill."

From what I understand and believe: the most accurate translation of the 6th Commandment is 'Thall shalt not murder." It is most definitely not the same as killing. If one considers murder as unlawful killing with forethought of malice. This instance does not apply.

It is a tragedy in the truest sense. The fault lies with the father, that is not disputed. As has been said he is in his own personal hell, further condemnations are gratuitous. This family needs support and prayer.

If I recall the statistics correctly, firearm accidents have declined steadily every year for about the last 40 years. That they still happen is unfortunate but as a whole our society is safer and more responsible than ever.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:21 pm

Several responses on this thread are more disturbing than the original incident.

Our society has become cold hearted and cruel. We have criminalized way to many things and call for punishment for the most trivial things.
Then when an accident such as this happens people cry out for vengeance and revenge against the person who did it.

This is part of what is killing our country. That father had NO criminal intent. He did several STUPID things, but he did not pre-meditate the killing of his son.

To convict him of a crime and imprison him will only finish the destruction of his family. He has a wife and two daughters that still NEED a father and husband. And several of you will deprive them of that ....... how sad.

This man is in hell now, by all means kick him while he's down. No compassion, no common sense, just crucify him. Why not tattoo a big M for murderer on his forehead then stake him out in front of the court house. Yeah, that's it make an example of him. Hey, while you're at it have the state CPS take the daughters away and stake out the mother too. After all she's an accomplice to the dirty deed. She let the boy go with his murdering father. Make an example of her too why don't you?

Joe

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:43 pm

J Miller wrote:Several responses on this thread are more disturbing than the original incident.

Our society has become cold hearted and cruel. We have criminalized way to many things and call for punishment for the most trivial things.
Then when an accident such as this happens people cry out for vengeance and revenge against the person who did it.

This is part of what is killing our country. That father had NO criminal intent. He did several STUPID things, but he did not pre-meditate the killing of his son.

To convict him of a crime and imprison him will only finish the destruction of his family. He has a wife and two daughters that still NEED a father and husband. And several of you will deprive them of that ....... how sad.

This man is in hell now, by all means kick him while he's down. No compassion, no common sense, just crucify him. Why not tattoo a big M for murderer on his forehead then stake him out in front of the court house. Yeah, that's it make an example of him. Hey, while you're at it have the state CPS take the daughters away and stake out the mother too. After all she's an accomplice to the dirty deed. She let the boy go with his murdering father. Make an example of her too why don't you?

Joe

+1 Joe - well put.

He is in a living hell and will be every day for the remainder of his life. Why punish his wife and other children too boot? Aren't they being punished enough already with the loss of a son/brother? It would be a miracle if this man can keep his sanity and provide for his family. He needs our prayers - he is condemning himself already, endlessly, each waking moment.

That being said, if he turns around and begins to blame the shotgun, and becomes an attack-dog for the anti-gun crowd, then my sympathy for him ends. He needs to "man-up", and accept personal responsibility for this now and forever - not try to blame it on anyone - or anything - else.

steveb · Post by **steveb** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:45 pm

I would've had to been packed out of the woods as I dont think I could deal with such. I dont think charges should be pressed against him either. He will suffer the rest of his life over this one.

My thoughts go out to the family.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:56 pm

All I can say to all of you self-appointed experts here that have this uncontrollable urge to sit here and pass your spiteful judgements is that I pray you never have to walk in that man's shoes.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:03 pm

Quick Karl wrote:All I can say to all of you self-appointed experts here that have this uncontrollable urge to sit here and pass your spiteful judgements is that I pray you never have to walk in that man's shoes.

Who's volunteering to walk in the boy's shoes?

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:07 pm

FWiedner wrote:
Quick Karl wrote:All I can say to all of you self-appointed experts here that have this uncontrollable urge to sit here and pass your spiteful judgements is that I pray you never have to walk in that man's shoes.
Who's volunteering to walk in the boy's shoes?

Mistakes happen - humans are imperfect - when you live a perfect life then you can start throwing stones.

I'm sure we'll be waiting a long time for that to happen.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:57 pm

J Miller wrote:Several responses on this thread are more disturbing than the original incident.

Our society has become cold hearted and cruel. We have criminalized way to many things and call for punishment for the most trivial things.
Then when an accident such as this happens people cry out for vengeance and revenge against the person who did it.

This is part of what is killing our country. That father had NO criminal intent. He did several STUPID things, but he did not pre-meditate the killing of his son.

To convict him of a crime and imprison him will only finish the destruction of his family. He has a wife and two daughters that still NEED a father and husband. And several of you will deprive them of that ....... how sad.

This man is in hell now, by all means kick him while he's down. No compassion, no common sense, just crucify him. Why not tattoo a big M for murderer on his forehead then stake him out in front of the court house. Yeah, that's it make an example of him. Hey, while you're at it have the state CPS take the daughters away and stake out the mother too. After all she's an accomplice to the dirty deed. She let the boy go with his murdering father. Make an example of her too why don't you?

Joe

Whoa, Joe. There are lots of crimes that don't require premeditation - negligent homicide comes to mind. Do you think the person who drives drunk and kills someone gets off because he didn't "intend" to kill anyone. He walked into the woods with a deadly weapon and shot at something - and he apparently did not know what that something was.

How is that "just an accident" or a "most trivial" thing?

If he shot at a turkey and the kid was on the other side, different story. This isn't about kicking someone when he is down or crying out for vengence. I agree that his life right now is likely to be a world of pain. That doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable.

And, just to be clear, charging him with a crime does not mean that you are depriving his family of a father. Don't assume that even with the conviction he automatically goes to jail. As scr83jp posted above, you can suspend a jail/prison sentence and make him go talk to hunters' safety classes for the next decade or so.

Michael in NH

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:15 pm

If the guy was sucking on a beer and killed his kid or anyone else, hunting or driving, he ought to be disemboweled in public, and left for the Coyotes to feed upon, but if he was just stupid and killed his own child he already has the worst punishment, regardless of what any east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist thinks, because elitist leftist liberal socialists have all the answers, and theyâ€™re all the wrong answers.

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:51 pm

Quick Karl wrote:If the guy was sucking on a beer and killed his kid or anyone else, hunting or driving, he ought to be disemboweled in public, and left for the Coyotes to feed upon, but if he was just stupid and killed his own child he already has the worst punishment, regardless of what any east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist thinks, because elitist leftist liberal socialists have all the answers, and theyâ€™re all the wrong answers.

Boy Karl, I just don't get people like you. The guy kills his own son while violating a bunch of gun/hunting safety rules, but you think he shouldn't be held accountable. Worse, you somehow equate holding him accountable with east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist views? With such shallow thinking it's no wonder the right to bear arms is under attack.

What if he killed your kid who was walking in the woods collecting mushrooms? Any different answer? If so, why?

Michael in NH

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:01 pm

Quick Karl wrote:All I can say to all of you self-appointed experts here that have this uncontrollable urge to sit here and pass your spiteful judgements is that I pray you never have to walk in that man's shoes.

You will get your wish, sir, because I will never have to walk in that man's shoes. I have been shooting rifles since I was 9 years old and safety is ingrained in me. Not becaue it is a habit on which I can rely, but because I actviely make a concerted effort to be safe each and every single time i pick up a firearm. What that guy did goes way beyond an accident. He showed depraved indifference for human life. It amazes me that one can literally murder their own son and it is OK with so many people who want to call it even because the guy likely regrets his criminal negligence.

As for, "thou shalt not kill" vs. "thau shalt not murder", well, HE knows and you know that what that man did was a heck of a lot closer to murder than to anything else.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:09 pm

Quick Karl wrote:If the guy was sucking on a beer and killed his kid or anyone else, hunting or driving, he ought to be disemboweled in public, and left for the Coyotes to feed upon, but if he was just stupid and killed his own child he already has the worst punishment, regardless of what any east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist thinks, because elitist leftist liberal socialists have all the answers, and theyâ€™re all the wrong answers.

Call me whatever you want, Karl, I am an east coaster, and darn proud of it. East coast folks are the ones who fought the British to win our Independence. East coast folks are the ones who fought to save our Union from the assault by the rebels who sought to dstroy the United States. Furthermore, I am as conservative, and as Patriotic as an American can come and you can jump in a lake on a cold day before you impune my patriotism and get away with it. I am not a liberal and have never been. I am a Ronald Reagan Conservative Republican AMERICAN.

Besides, you need to give some thought to your point of view. What YOU are saying is exactly what the liberal judges are saying from the bench each day when they seek to bend the law to suit their social engineering purposes. You are saying that the rule of law means nothing if the man shows regret for his crimes. And, you are saying that the laws don't apply evenly to everyone. And, you are saying that the judges can bend the law if the details of the situation suits some purpose or if the conditions of the crime evoke sympathy. What you are saying, literally, is that it is OK for the liberal judges to ignore the law if they feel bad for the killer. I say, "No Way." He killed that kid and he did it while being incredibly ignorant of every basic firearms safety rule, and he goes to JAIL.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:12 pm

Kismet wrote:
What if he killed your kid who was walking in the woods collecting mushrooms? Any different answer? If so, why?

Michael in NH

Yeah, what if instead of killing an 8 year old boy he actually killed another hunter? Then what? Is it OK to let him go without jail because he'll feel real bad and have to carry this with him forever? What if that hunter was one of our forum members? Dead. Gone. Forever. Because of this guy's negligence? That's OK with you if the guy feels real bad about what he did? Gosh, what if it was YOU that got killed? Sure aint OK with me. I say the killer goes to jail if kills you. Why's he get a free pass if the dead person is his 8 year old son? Why can people kill their kids and get away with it?

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:16 pm

ursavus.elemensis wrote:
Quick Karl wrote:If the guy was sucking on a beer and killed his kid or anyone else, hunting or driving, he ought to be disemboweled in public, and left for the Coyotes to feed upon, but if he was just stupid and killed his own child he already has the worst punishment, regardless of what any east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist thinks, because elitist leftist liberal socialists have all the answers, and theyâ€™re all the wrong answers.
Call me whatever you want, Karl, I am an east coaster, and darn proud of it, but I am as conservative, and as Patriotic as an American can come and you can jump on a lake on a cold day before you impune my patriotism and get away with it. I am not a liberal and have never been. I am a Ronald Reagan Conservative Republican AMERICAN.

Don't worry. I don't think there is any question Karl is referring to me. Still misses the mark, but he quickly figured out his answers and doesn't need to think about it any more.

Michael in NH

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Very sad indeed, but it was an accident, no more no less,the family will have to deal with it, it could have been in a car wreck also, same result. If I remember our vice pres also had a small hunting accident, only the results were not as bad.. I do feel for those involved.....

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:40 pm

Kismet wrote:But, how much different is this than the kid - say a 22 year old - that makes a terribly stupid decision and drives drunk and kills someone? I will tell you that person is probably going to prison for negligent homicide.

For the comparison at hand, let's say the person he killed was his own 3 year old son that was in the car seat when he hit a tree and not that he killed an unrelated bystander. Would a prosecutor still be compelled to push for a negligent homicide charge given society's currently low tolerance for alcohol abuse? Or would the loss (as with the hunter in this tragedy) mitigate the need to press the issue?

Just asking ... as you mentioned prosecutorial discretion in another thread.

I have three young kids, and if I accidentally killed one through my own negligence, I don't know what I would do nor can I even entertain the debate internally. The emotions this guy must be going through have to be tearing him apart ... yet he still has remaining family responsibilities.

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:42 pm

ursavus.elemensis
Sorry, butt I thought you were the vice prez, sorry my mistake...

Kismet · Post by **Kismet** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:53 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:
Kismet wrote:But, how much different is this than the kid - say a 22 year old - that makes a terribly stupid decision and drives drunk and kills someone? I will tell you that person is probably going to prison for negligent homicide.
For the comparison at hand, let's say the person he killed was his own 3 year old son that was in the car seat when he hit a tree and not that he killed an unrelated bystander. Would a prosecutor still be compelled to push for a negligent homicide charge given society's currently low tolerance for alcohol abuse? Or would the loss (as with the hunter in this tragedy) mitigate the need to press the issue?

Just asking ... as you mentioned prosecutorial discretion in another thread.

I have three young kids, and if I accidentally killed one through my own negligence, I don't know what I would do nor can I even entertain the debate internally. The emotions this guy must be going through have to be tearing him apart ... yet he still has remaining family responsibilities.

I think a charge would be very likely. The discretion would be applied in the disposition. As I said, I am not necessarily suggesting tossing this guy in prison. But I don't consider his actions (unless there is more to the story) a mere accident.

Let's face it, one of the reasons a lot of crimes are prosecuted the way they are (such as DWI) is because even if you didn't hurt someone else, you just as easily could have. We prosecute drunk drivers when the only person they hurt in an accident is themselves! So, I return to the question of how people feel about this guy if he shot some kid out picking mushrooms.

Michael in NH

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:38 pm

Had that been me who did that, they would have found a note and me.----------------Sixgun

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:55 pm

I was going to stay away from this one, but I will give my .02 cents anyway. I will not say whether the Father should or should not be sent to Jail. First and Foremost my Heart goes out to the family of this Horrible accident. Something like this should not ever happen, all Hunters should know their target before pulling that trigger, that is the 1st rule of Hunter Safety, and a good one. A Human Being regardless of age does not look at all like a Turkey. Unfortunately this gives the Anti Gun crowd a whole bunch of Ammo against us all. I hear the statement frequently that "Everything" happens for a reason. Only God knows the reason for this incident.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:53 pm

Kismet wrote:
Quick Karl wrote:If the guy was sucking on a beer and killed his kid or anyone else, hunting or driving, he ought to be disemboweled in public, and left for the Coyotes to feed upon, but if he was just stupid and killed his own child he already has the worst punishment, regardless of what any east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist thinks, because elitist leftist liberal socialists have all the answers, and theyâ€™re all the wrong answers.
Boy Karl, I just don't get people like you. The guy kills his own son while violating a bunch of gun/hunting safety rules, but you think he shouldn't be held accountable. Worse, you somehow equate holding him accountable with east coast elitist leftist liberal socialist views? With such shallow thinking it's no wonder the right to bear arms is under attack.

What if he killed your kid who was walking in the woods collecting mushrooms? Any different answer? If so, why?

Michael in NH

If I were an elitist leftist liberal socialist, like you, I would let the liberal socialist-infected court system decide to let him off the hook for his first 15-offenses â€“ you know, like they do to child rapists and serial killersâ€¦

If you kill your own child as a result of your own stupidity, there can be no worse pain, and only a scumbag would try to pile more upon you.

If you kill someone else because of careless stupidity, you should be gutted in public, along with the elitist leftist liberal judge that was going to give you probation.

If you're driving down a dark road at night and a lady in dark clothes decides to cross the street in the middle of the road without looking and you run her over and kill her, it's an accident, and humans are imperfect and accidents happen - but if you're drunk and the same thing hapens, screw you you should be tortured to death.

PS. The right to bear arms is under attack from elitist leftist liberal socialists who want to twist every last tradition of right and wrong, so they can control society, and not fear retaliation.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:57 pm

Sixgun wrote:Had that been me who did that, they would have found a note and me.----------------Sixgun

My point exactly. They would have found two bodies. I doubt I would have been rational enough to consider my other child and wife.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:13 pm

Why are we so concerned about him & his feelings? His offense was against the peace and dignity of the people .

He owes the public something for his illegal actions.

Fry him!

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:22 am

that would probably be a relief to him.

I don't think his mistake is in the category of a crime, no criminal intent, etc.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:35 am

2571 wrote:Why are we so concerned about him & his feelings? His offense was against the peace and dignity of the people .

He owes the public something for his illegal actions.

Fry him!

His offense was against his own son & it was a tragic accident. You make it sound like he blew him away at a bus stop. Thats part of our problem in this country, intent is meaningless as long as someone pays.
He dont owe me or you a darn thing.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:12 am

Leverdude wrote:
2571 wrote:Why are we so concerned about him & his feelings? His offense was against the peace and dignity of the people .

He owes the public something for his illegal actions.

Fry him!
His offense was against his own son & it was a tragic accident. You make it sound like he blew him away at a bus stop. Thats part of our problem in this country, intent is meaningless as long as someone pays.
He dont owe me or you a darn thing.

I agree that the idea that sombody's gotta pay is a growing and irritating phenomenon, but I'm not sure whether or not I disagree on this point.

This man's actions and the results, thanks to the media play it has received, is a reflection on us all as sportsmen and as gun-owners.

This event will become one of the statistics used as evidence when the eventual vote is held to stop children from going into the field, to forbid the use of certain arms, to alter hunter-safety training requirements, or to restrict certain types of hunting.

It's the same old story; He may bear the grief of the event, but we will all have to pay for the mistake.

On another note, what if it was someone else beside the father who shot the boy? Should he have to answer for his actions, or is his life long grief at having shot a little boy restitution enough?

OT:Father accidentally shoots son while turkey hunting

OT:Father accidentally shoots son while turkey hunting

my .02

Re: my .02

Re: my .02