.30-30 subsonic load help

[vancelw]

Looking for quickloads help or someone's favorite recipe.

Need information on a subsonic (1000 fps or so) load that will stabilize in a 1:16 twist.

85 or 100 grain .312 bullets? Or 125 .308 bullet?
TIA for any help.

EDIT 1:10 twist! And probably going to stick with a 170 grain bullet. Total change of direction, but still aim to keep it subsonic.

[Tycer]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... harges.htm

The 30-30 first; I know like many the 30-30 wasn’t the first commercial smokeless power cartridge offered in the U.S. The 30-40 Krag in a single shot rifle was...in 1892/3 but that had limited sales. The 30-30 as most know was designed by John Browning for the 1894 Winchester Levergun which he also designed by redesigning the 1892 Winchester levergun. He did that so the rifle would take longer cartridges than the pistol rounds chambered in the ‘92. Though the 30-30 was to be the first on the market in the new rifle...it didn’t make it...stress flaws in the soft steel used in those days allowed friction wear with jacketed bullets....so the 32-40 was first chambered in the ‘94. By 1895 ‘Nickel Steel’ barrels were put on the 30-30 chambered guns. They found by adding a small amount of nickel to the steel it’s wear quotient was much higher. But then they had problems bluing the barrels...because the nickel created the same condition that stainless steel has...it doesn’t blue well if at all. So if you see an old 30-30 Winchester with what appears to be a brownish-blue barrel... it’s really old, turn of the 19/20th century.

The 30-30 started the great and never ending argument about big fat bullets at slow to moderate velocities vrs. lighter smaller bullets at high velocity and killing ability. The boys back then that used to 45-70s...44-40s...and such, looked at the small hole in the end of the 30-30 barrel and couldn’t believe it would kill well. We it did then...and still does now. And with the new powders, bullets, cartridges cases of great strength, guns made of fantastic steel today, compared to the 1890s...the 30-30 today does illustriously better than yesteryear. Certainly a 150 grain jacketed bullet at 2500 fps is a fine hunting load. The Improved case is better, and cast bullets really make it shine.

A farmer in Rhodesia (it was Northern and Southern Rhodesia in those days) had a Savage 250-3000 and a 30-30 Marlin. The man kept four large families on farms (ranches..stations..what ever they called them then) around him, in meat all the time while I was there...and I’m sure for decades later. He harvested animals as big as our elk with the 30-30 and the standard British loaded 170 grain round softnose (flat tip). Varmints and even up to large deer types, with the 250-3000 went down also. The 7.62X51mm Rimmed as the 30-30 is called in Europe, was always considered a fine target round..as well as perfect for drillings, single shot break opens, and even a few doubles. Can you image a small, trim, 30-30 double rifle...goodness that would be sweet. Our so called poor 30-30 is really an international caliber and cartridge.

Loading for it is easy...cartridge cases today are much stronger than just a few decades ago....at least I seem to crush fewer with the reloading press then I did back in the 1960s and 70s.

There are so many cast bullet molds in .308 thru .311 that it is staggering. So I use just a few here....the number one cast mold I have for the 30-30 class of leveraction rifles and the 32-20 and 30 Carbine in rifles and handguns is the Lyman .308440 which probably has been renumbered to .311440. It is a flat faced almost cylindrical bullet in my softest alloy it runs 155 grains and in my hard cast 151 grains. It’s perfect for loading tubes and transmitting shock to animals. I hear all the time this shape bullet in the 30-30 will have terrible down range ballistics.

Well loaded to 2500 fps with 36 grains of Reloader15 from my 24 inch Marlin...with a 3 inch high at 100 yards, this bullet with it’s B.C. of near .250, will be on at 200 yards and down a scant foot at 300 yards! Actual tests...not from the books. It will still be trucking at a velocity of near 2000 fps at 300 and giving all most 1300 lbs of punch out there. And that flat nose will transmit its energy well. We are not talking about some big fat flatfaced 44 or 45 caliber bullet with a ballistic co-efficient so low it’s only in the double digits. The 30 caliber starts off long and narrow for it’s weight. A comparable jacketed bullet is the Speer 130 grain Flatnosed 30-30 bullet. Loaded the same it gives basically the same ballistics. See my articles on the 30-30 for top loads for hunting and such.



This bullet over 7 grains of Red Dot in the 30-30 case or the 300 Savage case (the savage case takes one grain more of fast powder to met these 30-30 velocities with fast powder), gives near 1200 fps and near 500 lbs of punch for around 25000 CUP. 8.5 grains jumps the pressure to well over 35,000 CUP for only an additional 150 fps. Try 11 grains of Unique, it will give 1650 fps and 1000 lbs of M.E. and it is a fun load at the same pressure . Out to 150 yards it will kill game to 100 lbs without problems. I use moderate lead tempered to 16 to 18 on the B-Scale with de-tempered noses.

19.5 grains of 4759 will give close to 2000 fps..recoil is nothing and over 1300 lbs of muzzle energy. Good deer load for the younger shooters, or those that can’t take recoil. 4 grains of Bullseye will give around 1000 fps...it’s a better squirrel load than any 22RF...cheaper too. You can shoot right up thru a branch a squirrel is laying on...he’ll come off and right down into your game bag. The 311041 is a 170 grain flat nose that can take the above fast powder loads, and it kills better and is one of the most accurate I have used in my 30 caliber rifles...nice gas checked bullet that flies very flat.

The 210 grain Lyman cast soft, lubed with a flat faced nose insert in the lube sizer...will give a flat nose to this bullet so it can be loaded in the tube. Start with 3 grains of Bullseye and work down for the silent/near silent load that has power enough for close range vermin. Careful it’s not a toy load...it will kill. In my 32-40 Winchester High wall 26 inch barrel...I can hear the hammer drop...but it knocked over my 70 lb bullet trap. The trap was on a unstable 3 legged stool and that helped the topple...but still I was impressed. The 32 Winchester Special is in the same class as the 30-30 so the same loads with heavier cast bullets can be used. I use a number of .323 or 8mm molds in different weights in my 32 Specials.

Heavy cast bullets in the 16 to 18 hardness area, gas checked...nose de-tempered, I use a premium lube like ApacheBlu...with the 170 grain 311041 in my 30-30 Marlin over 31 grains of 335, it goes 2290 fps and is better than any jacketed load I have put together on large game animals like small elk. Remember the lube is important...I developed ApacheBlu back in the 1980s to over come hot temperatures...like we have in the southwest. Also it was made to allow very high velocity without the fouling....Hanned manufactures it now, and I have no real interest in the company other than the owners are friends. They make it just like I did for so many years...and it isn’t cheap. But it’s for high velocity, high temp, high pressure cast loads...the ingredients are not cheap. And there are other lubes that are cheaper...but they won’t do what ApacheBlu will do under the conditions described above. Sure a few shots will go well...but I have fired hundreds of rounds with A’Blu without fouling or the groups opening.

One trick I use is to fire a flat based jacketed bullet, loaded backwards at moderate velocity for every 20 to 30 cast rounds...cleans the barrel slick as anything else and is quick. Don’t even have to change your shooting position. The old saying is, want to find the quickest way to solve a labor problem, ask a lazy man...ApacheBlu does it...and a backwards flatbase jacketed slug every once in a while. ApacheBlu also conditions the barrel for cast loads...make sure the barrel is clean and start with A’Blu loads the groups get better with use. At least it does for me.

[Tycer]

Try a soft heavy bullet and three grains of bullseye.

[Sixgun]

Try a soft heavy bullet and three grains of bullseye.

That will work. I prefer to use unique...7 gr. With a 170-220 gr. cast. I've shot hundreds of these subsonic loads and for some reason, it's more accurate if I leave the gas check off. Yea, light bullets designed for the 32-20 will work with the same load and dont concern yourself with sizing diameter....all of my 30 caliber cast loads from 30-30, 30 car., '06, 308, 300 Sav., all get sized .311.

My son is a huge fan of the 300 Blackout and keep pestering me to get an upper. I tell him every 30 caliber rifle I have is a Blackout.----6

[OldWin]

Sorry for taking this off topic........

Jack, bud, your son is right. As much as I love the cat sneeze loads in my oldies, the 300BO is a ball to shoot. Bought a cheapie upper for my Colt last year. Shoots under an inch.

Sorry guys. Carry on.

[Sixgun]

Sorry for taking this off topic........

First, Vance. ....(and others).......use cast.......it's no fun driving out a stuck jacketed bullet.

Jack, bud, your son is right. As much as I love the cat sneeze loads in my oldies, the 300BO is a ball to shoot. Bought a cheapie upper for my Colt last year. Shoots under an inch.

Sorry guys. Carry on.

Jay......YOU WILL pay for that!!! Imagine, steppin' on Vance's post. Go back to your BLUE state!

Now that niceties have been exchanged I thought someone would challenge my thoughts on the 300 BO. I just may need to modernize......got thousands of .223 brass...get dies and stop down Tommy's and pick up an upper. On the other hand, he just got in a collection of "assault" rifles...about a hundred old ones...uzi's, fn's, ak's, m-60,m-2,m 1919, AR's,garands, carbines, ............ooooooo.....so many guns....and so little money.....-----6

[OldWin]

Oh man! Blue statin' me? That hurts.
Least we split it. And up in MY part of the state it was RED.
And, we shot down the Bloomberg background check.

There's gotta be some goodies in that pile of stuff. Your bud gets all the good stuff!

TOPIC ON.

I like a little Unique (bout 8 in 30-30) under a 110gr. 30 carbine Hornady half jacket.

[Borregos]

It's not subsonic but my favorite load in my old (1914) Winchester SRC is 9.5gr Unique pushing a gas checked 150gr RCBS projectile. Comes out around 1400fps and is very accurate.

[vancelw]

Not looking for cat sneeze loads. Those are easy.

Looking for subsonic loads using jacketed bullets. (cast fouls the supressor... )

[1894cfan]

Go over to 'marlinowners.com', scroll down and click on 'reloading', click on 'lighter bullets in 30-30'. In there is LOTS of loads that you might find rather interesting and informative, including a bunch by 30WCF! HTH

[earlmck]

Hmmm.... This isn't a trivial question, Vance. I played around in QuickLoad to see what it says. So, if you really have a 1:16" twist you are truly looking at 100 to 110 grain bullets; anything much heavier isn't going to be stabilized. And for these light bullets QL keeps telling me that "shot start pressure is too high" which I think is QL code for "you could stick one of these things in the barrel at these low pressures". QL did let me guestimate 5 to 5.5 grains of TrailBoss for 1000 to 1050 fps from 20" of bbl. It warned against dropping to even 4.5 grains, so you are on the margin with this load.

If that 1:16" was a misprint and you have a more normal 1:12" twist you can get away with somewhat heavier bullets so things would get a little easier though still not trivial. I now see why subsonic cartridges favor small cases and fast twists and heavy bullets.

[Sixgun]

Jacketed? Just use a fast burning rifle powder like 5744, 4198,4277, or any thing like it. Chrono till you get what you want. ---6

[1894cfan]

please check out marlinowners.com, reloading, lighter bullets in 30-30.

[Nath]

1in16" ???

Sounds like 32special!

N.

[vancelw]

Go over to 'marlinowners.com', scroll down and click on 'reloading', click on 'lighter bullets in 30-30'. In there is LOTS of loads that you might find rather interesting and informative, including a bunch by 30WCF! HTH

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloa ... -30-a.html

Thanks.

[vancelw]

Hmmm.... This isn't a trivial question, Vance. I played around in QuickLoad to see what it says. So, if you really have a 1:16" twist you are truly looking at 100 to 110 grain bullets; anything much heavier isn't going to be stabilized. And for these light bullets QL keeps telling me that "shot start pressure is too high" which I think is QL code for "you could stick one of these things in the barrel at these low pressures". QL did let me guestimate 5 to 5.5 grains of TrailBoss for 1000 to 1050 fps from 20" of bbl. It warned against dropping to even 4.5 grains, so you are on the margin with this load.

If that 1:16" was a misprint and you have a more normal 1:12" twist you can get away with somewhat heavier bullets so things would get a little easier though still not trivial. I now see why subsonic cartridges favor small cases and fast twists and heavy bullets.

Thanks, Earl.
I'm asking on behalf of my cousin, who is developing a "tactical" rifle that I assume he is going to use for pest eradication in sensitive areas. Like removing feral hogs adjacent to suburban areas, etc.

Trail Boss is one powder he was considering. He may just have to use a suppressor that can be taken apart for cleaning and use cast instead of jacketed. I've got quite a variety of powders and may accumulate some lighter, jacketed .308 bullets and work up. I have a chronograph but not sure if he does. Of course, I can't do a very good job if I don't have a .30-30 with a 1:16 twist. Both of mine are Winchesters, a ca. 1906 1894 and a 1994 model 94 AE. His is a Marlin.

[vancelw]

1in16" ???

Sounds like 32special!

N.

Okay, he had a brain fanny burp (and he's younger than I am )

it's a 1:10 twist, not a 1:16 or a 1:12

[earlmck]

it's a 1:10 twist, not a 1:16 or a 1:12

Well then, I'd go with a little heavier bullet so I had more pressure at the subsonic velocities. But if QL is right about this "shot start pressure too high" thing then you still want to use TrailBoss, even with 150 or 170 grain bullets. 6 to 6.5 grains of TB with either bullet should stay subsonic. QL seems to think you could drop to 4.0 grains with the 170 grain bullet or 4.5 with the 150 grain and still have enough pressure to get the jacketed bullet down the barrel (800 fps vicinity), so a little more slop than with the lighter bullets.

I have no experience with low velocity loads with anything other than cast bullets, so I don't know how big is the threat of sticking a jacketed bullet in the bore with a load of 5 grains of Unique (which would probably be slightly subsonic). But QuickLoad sure seems to be warning against it.