The Finicky 25-20 & The Backyard Silencer

[Sixgun]

First, I'd like to say that when all else fails, CONTINUE TO EXPERIMENT, even with gas checks....more on that later.

I have this Winchester Model 53 takedown in 25-20 that I have never been totally happy with, in concern to accuracy. It's a tack driver with the Speer 75 grainer or even with Hornady 75 grain spitzers with the nose ground down. I won the Regional Silhouette Championship in AAA class with this rifle a few years ago but.....I used the Speer 70 gr. With cast.....well.......I tried about everything and the best I could get was about 1 and 1/2 at 50 or about 3-4" at 100 most always with flyers with the 70 gr. Lyman gas check. Not bad but I knew it could do better.

Special mention should be given to velocity as groups up to 1400 were easy to get good. I wanted to go higher up to the 1600-1800 level for reasons that don't mean nothing here.

The other day I cast up a mess of these same Lyman's using a Linotype alloy and put on a no drill scope mount along with a long eye relief Leupold scope. In the past three days I fired 35 eight shot groups, sometimes 5-7 shots for a total of close to 300 rounds.......all at 50 yards.....all taking my time.


Results? The same as I had with the tang sight.....pretty much the same size group and again, with one or two flyers every 8 shots. Velocities with 6 different powders.....Unique, Herco, 4227, RL7, WSF, and A.A. #7 using different seating depths and varying charges. The slower powders were eliminated fast as extreme spreads were 75-150 fps. I decided to stay with WSF, and AA#7 as these powders had the closest extreme spreads. Winchester small rifle primers were used throughout and yes, in the past I tried pistol primers, CCI S.R. and Federal S.R.

There are other variables I left out and I just don't feel like repeating them here in detail as I'm not getting paid to do this post and there's some stuff on Fox News I want to see later.

So.......I'm scratching my head and then I remember something that brought me true happiness 15 years ago. While working with an original Winchester Hi-Wall 40-82 I found that after I ran out of 41 caliber gas checks, I decided to use .416 gas checks.....a little sloppy going on but the lubricator straightened them up real nice.......viola! Groups went from 5" at 200 meters to 3".

Once again...so.......as I have about every imaginable component down in the gunroom, I decided to try some 6.5 gas checks and double viola.........groups shrank and flyers were in the past! Shot 6 eight shot groups and no flyers.......velocities are a bit over 1600 fps. I decided to stay with A.A.#7 with 6.5 grains.

My backyard set up with the "silencer" in front of the barn. No sound at all if speed kept under 1100 or so. The blast is greatly diminished if going super sonic. This "silencer" is nothing more than 4' of fencing wrapped around egg crate foam with an old water heater insulator wrapped around it with my special camo paint job. It's funneled from 18" to about 9".





Front view





Close up.....yea, this cat follows me everywhere just like a dog.




This is very typical of the groups I have been shooting. The one on the left...notice the flyers......then the one on the right......with the larger gas checks.



The dang cat wants in on the action and Twinkles told me not to put any "guns and stupid stuff" in with her. -----------6

[Ysabel Kid]

Jack -

Now that is my idea of fun experimenting!

Congratulations on solving this one!!!

YK

[Sixgun]

Hey Kid...I'm liking this retirement thing more every day. No rush, no hurry, doing what I want to do when I want to do it...going to bed and getting up when I damm well feel like it.

I tell all of my younger buddies.......old age comes up on you a lot faster than you think and to always use the Boy Scout motto.......Be Prepared.

Well, it's 9 pm and Fox is on...-----6

[Marvin S]

I'm sure you are aware of the extensive cast bullet load testing posted on the marlin owners site. I have the exact same mod 53 as you along with a mod 25 R.E.M. And a 27 Marlin in 25 WCF. Good cast accuracy can be hard to come by for the 25 WCF. I will give your 6.5 GC findings a try when I can locate some. I favor the 85 gr ranch dog mold for my 25s.

[BenT]

Jack,

I glad to see that you made it to retirement and are making good use of your time.

I will keep working to make sure your Social Security checks keep showing up in your mailbox.
And NO I won't get a second job just to make sure you checks keep showing up.

[Sixgun]

Ah shucks Ben...thank you very much for continuing to work even though about half the country don't. and Marve, my Rem eats these 70 gr. Lyman's up with any load I put behind em. Some guys are really smart and know how to check out chamber throats.....something my 53 probably don't have. A Marlin CL I have is also not as finicky as to what I feed it....but.....this 53 is my favorite silhouette gun and I was just determined to make it all right.

I also found out this gun likes a 1.615 OAL with the Lyman....right on the close edge of the crimp groove....a detail I left out in the post----6

[AJMD429]

Just don't let hot weather cause some of that duct tape to soften and come loose - if a dangling piece of loose sticky duct tape touched your gun, the ATF might say you had an illegal suppressor "affixed to your firearm". . .






I sure HOPE they really spend their time, money, and energy on more legitimate activities, but sometimes I hear things that make my skin crawl.

Anyway, using 'oversized' gas-checks makes sense that it would improve accuracy, versus ones even slightly under-sized.

I've always wondered why there are so few 'sizes' of them, but as you say, a bullet-sizer can kind of fix that.

[boolitshooter]

Retirement is great. Enjoy all of it. Life is too short. And Ben please keep working, perhaps even a second job to help out your inner city friends.
Six I see you are aiming for a deer load, 75 to 80 gr. Hard cast at 1600 fps. It works.

[Sixgun]

And Ben please keep working, perhaps even a second job to help out your inner city friends.

Yea Ben, like boolitshooter, I agree with the second job, especially to help the disenfranchised bros who are always so respectful to the law enforcement community. ----6

[Malamute]

...old age comes up on you a lot faster than you think...

Yeah, I thought getting old would take longer.

[Griff]

I'm sure you meant sound baffle or blast absorber, "silencers" require a tax stamp...

[Sixgun]

I'm sure you meant sound baffle or blast absorber, "silencers" require a tax stamp...

Griff,
I do have a stamp for this backyard silencer. It's in the form of a BAR. When the Feds ask, "I'd like to see your stamp." ......well, I just place this metal container that holds a bunch of this brass thingys into this BAR and show them that. In case I cant get to this BAR, I have smaller "stamps" called AR-15's. ------6

[Sixgun]

I'm sure you meant sound baffle or blast absorber, "silencers" require a tax stamp... ]

Griff,
I do have a stamp for this backyard silencer. It's in the form of a BAR. When the Feds ask, "I'd like to see your stamp." ......well, I just place this metal container that holds a bunch of this brass thingys into this BAR and show them that. In case I cant get to this BAR, I have smaller "stamps" called AR-15's.

There is a huge advantage of getting old.......it's called, "I've already lived most of my life" and if someone or government agency says to "give it up" , I'll give it up......in the form of 150 gr. projectiles going 2800 f.p.s.------6

[Catshooter]

That is very interesting about using a larger gas check. I'd've never thought of that. Nice work.


Cat

[w30wcf]

Six,
Nice work! Great report!

I'm thinking that the 6.5 check, when sized, ends up a bit larger than the standard .25 g.c. and thereby is doing a more effective job sealing the gas behind the bullet.

Does that sound right to you?

Thank you,
w30wcf

[Sixgun]

Six,
Nice work! Great report!

I'm thinking that the 6.5 check, when sized, ends up a bit larger than the standard .25 g.c. and thereby is doing a more effective job sealing the gas behind the bullet.

Does that sound right to you?

Thank you,
w30wcf

That would make sense if I had not done the following ..........let's start here.....I slugged the bore several times and came out with .256. Then I shot an unsized bullet with one grain of Bullseye into a thick towel. That also came out at .256. I have 3 calipers and one mike.. one is a $400 Mitatoyo or however you spell that Jap name. All .256

I have two sizing dies.....257 and .258. Each die tested out 100% unlike some sizing dies I have. Ammo loaded with .258 were no where near as accurate as the .257. This was after extensive testing using the scope and a benchrest to eliminate human error. Sooo....it does make sense on what you said but that was tested using the .258 die.

This was one of those variables I did not feel like writing out last night.------6

[Ysabel Kid]

Hey Kid...I'm liking this retirement thing more every day. No rush, no hurry, doing what I want to do when I want to do it...going to bed and getting up when I damm well feel like it.

I tell all of my younger buddies.......old age comes up on you a lot faster than you think and to always use the Boy Scout motto.......Be Prepared.

Well, it's 9 pm and Fox is on...-----6

Jack, I just hope you are not the last of the generation that gets to retire. If Hillary wins, those of us working will be working forever, just to pay our "fair share" of taxes. Someone needs to pay for all the parasites who will vote for her!

[Sixgun]

Jay,
I hear ya.....I did what Trump does....use the system to your advantage in order to retire. Small house=small taxes. Stay away from credit cards. Use the same vehicle year after year. Buy good guns, keep for years...then sell to cash buyers......do all your own repairs......don't let a woman put you in debt........stay well insurred........keep your friends to the tune of how many thumbs you have. Never let the right hand to know what the left hand does. When your 62 collect S.S.as you could be dead by 63.

As Trump says, "it's all legal". ------6

[Old Savage]

Sounds wise. And it takes 14 years to catch up to the SS difference.

[w30wcf]

Six,
Nice work! Great report!

I'm thinking that the 6.5 check, when sized, ends up a bit larger than the standard .25 g.c. and thereby is doing a more effective job sealing the gas behind the bullet.

Does that sound right to you?

Thank you,
w30wcf

That would make sense if I had not done the following ..........let's start here.....I slugged the bore several times and came out with .256. Then I shot an unsized bullet with one grain of Bullseye into a thick towel. That also came out at .256. I have 3 calipers and one mike.. one is a $400 Mitatoyo or however you spell that Jap name. All .256

I have two sizing dies.....257 and .258. Each die tested out 100% unlike some sizing dies I have. Ammo loaded with .258 were no where near as accurate as the .257. This was after extensive testing using the scope and a benchrest to eliminate human error. Sooo....it does make sense on what you said but that was tested using the .258 die.

This was one of those variables I did not feel like writing out last night.------6

6...,
Interesting. What diameter are the 6.5 GC's after they go through the .257" die? Same ? for the .25 GC's. I'm thinking the 6.5's are a bit larger(?)

Thank you ,
w30wcf

[Sixgun]

Jack Sr.
Just checked....both gas checks come out at exactly .257. The 6.5 gas checks are from an earlier era.....the old Ideal cardboard box. These things might be 75 years old or about the same age as Griff. The alloy is even different with a more "brassy" color and are noticeably higher on the sides. -------Jack Jr.

[w30wcf]

Six,
Thank you for the pic and the info. I'm thinking that the 6.5 when sized to .257 might pucker just a tad on the bottom and upon ignition, it is pushed flat and the sides expand just a tad to provide a perfect seal into and through the barrel. Plus it covers up more of the shank - more engagement in the barrel.

My .02 anyway.

The Lyman 257420 mold has varied over the years per the pic below.


I have the mold that produced the one in the middle.
Yours is close to the one on the right. (given to me by a fellow enthusiast)
The one on the left is some of a small batch I found at a gunshop awhile back.

w30wcf

[Sixgun]

I kinda like the one all the way to the left....looks like it has a bit of a bore ride on it. My 53 appears to be no-throat.-------6

[fordwannabe]

I realize this is an old thread but....Jack you say you were casting a linotype alloy. Could you tell me what the percentages are. I cast up some all Lino bullets tonight they are gorgeous and they are HARD but should I cut it back a little for my 25-20. Thanks. I will get the hang of this yet...maybe.

[Sixgun]

I realize this is an old thread but....Jack you say you were casting a linotype alloy. Could you tell me what the percentages are. I cast up some all Lino bullets tonight they are gorgeous and they are HARD but should I cut it back a little for my 25-20. Thanks. I will get the hang of this yet...maybe.

Howdy Tom....percentages? On Lino??? Lots of lead, some tin and some antimony.... I'm thinking 80/12/8...tin on the last one. As little as these 25 caliber and 32-20 bullets are, it pays to avoid aggravation in bullet slippage by using Lino. You could mix it 50/50 with pure lead and still get a nice bullet. Mixing it 66/33 Lino will work for most all loads.

Sometimes you don't gain nothin by using pure Lino......I just ike the way the bullets look with full diameter on the mould and very little variation in weight.---6

[fordwannabe]

Thanks Jack, that was the percentages I was looking for100percent Lino, cast and shoot. I got em cast will let them sit until next weekend then size, check and load. This rifle shoots really well with the Remington 86 grain jacket, but I havent had any luck with cast.

[fordwannabe]

Jack check your email.

[Catshooter]

One of the advantages that Linotype has is that it expands as it cools. Alloys with a lot less of the other goodies and more lead shrink as they cool, depending of course.

Naturally Lino is considerably harder than most other lead alloys. Dropping the bullets out of the mould and into water can fix that though.


Cat

[Sixgun]

One of the advantages that Linotype has is that it expands as it cools. Alloys with a lot less of the other goodies and more lead shrink as they cool, depending of course.

Naturally Lino is considerably harder than most other lead alloys. Dropping the bullets out of the mould and into water can fix that though.
Cat

Cat,
I devoted the day to casting. On the menu was 30 caliber Cramer (quality mould from the forties) and 348 NEI so I started off melting 50 pounds of straight Lino .....reserved for bullets for accuracy, unlike plinking handgun bullets,etc. After 20 minutes I was so aggravated, I emptied out the RCBS Furnace and my 30 pound iron pot into ingots. Reason......I had to beat on the handles of the moulds so hard to get the bullets to drop out, I decided I had enough.

Lino is great but it's a real PITA with certain moulds and these moulds I was running today are two of them. I loaded the furnace and the iron pot with ingots of Lino and ingots of wheelweights....ingot for ingot....50-50......and everything turned normal. This mix is about identical to Lyman #2 and will be plenty hard enough.

Then.....while casting.......... ..........the nozzle of the furnace got slightly clogged with dirt so I have a drill bit the same size of the hole and twist it in there with a pair of pliers..........and broke the dang bit in the nozzle............only way to get it out was to empty the pot ......again.....undo the linkage and push the broken piece up from underneath..........then reheat .......and continued casting.

These things destroyed my production numbers and only managed 1000 30 cal. and 500 348's......4 cavity and double cavity......I should have had twice that amount.

Going to bed...aggravated....but happy ----6

[Catshooter]

Oh man, I can grrrr right with ya.

You know, maybe the trouble with those two moulds is the sprue hole. When the factory ran their cutter in and beveled out the hole, sometimes they didn't run it down all the way. Or if the edge of the hole has chipped it'll make it tough to cut that strong alloy. If you get a countersink bit that may help. A countersink wants to run slowly, 100, 200 rpm or so or they can chatter.

Since you have to replace that drill bit, if you heat the new one up to where it's blue, that may soften it to the point where it won't be so brittle.

Still, 1,500 bullets cast isn't a bad day. Not like you had to go to work!


Cat

[w30wcf]

6.....
Sorry to learn of the somewhat less rewarding day making bullets. Perhaps if you were playing a bit of music, that would have helped you stay in the rhythm....

Well at least until the alloy stopped flowing.....

I have had the same experience and have found that a paper clip opened flat with one end turned up at a 90 degree angle for about 1/2" to poke into the orifice from the bottom works really well held with pliers so that there is no danger of getting your fingers a bit to hot!

Oh, while im thinking of it, when do you think your might test those .25-20 cast bullets I gave you? As I recall they were about 12BHN and have shot really well at close to 2000 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[Sixgun]

Cat,
I hear ya and I do polish the holes on my spruce plates on both sides. The trouble comes with getting the bullets out of the mould after the spruce has been cut off. It's like they are welded to the cavity. As you know, Lino does not shrink much and these moulds have multiple bands with sharp edges. They want to stay in the cavity.

Thanks for the tip on the drill bit. Never thought about that.----6

[marlinman93]

I use a bottom pour Lee 20 lb. and I got tired of fighting drips, or occasional plugged spouts. I drained all the molten lead and took a small bit to clean up the hole. Then put some valve lapping compound on the shaft of the plug that closes the spout, and spun it with a hand drill to polish the areas to a prefect match. Had to add some valve lapping compound once or twice until it was very nicely polished, but it made a huge difference. I made sure I attempted to keep the angle the plug sits at, so the two surfaces would match well.

[Sixgun]

Marlinman,
Great idea! Never had much drip issues with the RCBS but my little Lyman drips. Think I'll chuck it in a drill press to keep a perfect 180 degrees as I tend to get wobbly with a hand drill.---6

[w30wcf]

6.....
Sorry to learn of the somewhat less rewarding day making bullets. Perhaps if you were playing a bit of music, that would have helped you stay in the rhythm....

Well at least until the alloy stopped flowing.....

I have had the same experience and have found that a paper clip opened flat with one end turned up at a 90 degree angle for about 1/2" to poke into the orifice from the bottom works really well held with pliers so that there is no danger of getting your fingers a bit to hot!

Oh, while im thinking of it, when do you think your might test those .25-20 cast bullets I gave you? As I recall they were about 12BHN and have shot really well at close to 2000 f.p.s.

w30wcf

I should have gone into a bit more detail on the paper clip solution to unplug a clogged spout.

I place a ingot mold under the spout, insert the paper clip end up into the bottom of the spout, then gently open the valve pushing the paper clip end up into the orifice. A few giggles of the paper lip and usually the alloy is flowing well once again.....

w30wcf i