.44 WCF and split case mouths
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- Carlsen Highway
- Levergunner 2.0
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.44 WCF and split case mouths
Guys, I have been continually getting split case mouths in my .44-40 brass. I mean, its a chronic situation.
I now have to buy a whole new bag of brass, bit I find myself reluctant to do it, because I know I will go through the whole lot of them in a couple of months probably. I cant afford to pay for the brass at this rate.
I read about some people getting 20+ reloads with their .44-40 brass and I just wish I could do that. My brass does not last long. They are lucky if they last three or four times and then they develop splits.
What am I doing wrong?
Brass is Starline, although I have the same problem with Win and RP as well. My bores are .430 and I am loading cast bullets the same size. I am using Lee dies. I do not resize my black powder cases, I just expand the necks/mouth using the expander die for a .44 Magnum. I crimp lightly with a Lee FCD.
For smokeless I do resize the cases and expand them with the same .44 mag expander die. These get a heavy crimp with the lee crimp die.
My black powder cases last a bit longer than the smokeless, maybe one reload more only though.
I might be wrong but I seem to remember that I didnt really start getting split case mouths until I started using a .44 magnum expander die. I used to expand with the normal .44/40 Lee die, but bullets were seating crooked, and I was getting bulges and bad runout, no matter how I tried, I couldnt get a bullet seated straight. I then went to the .44 magnum expander and this problem went away.
Someone suggested it could be the Lee factory crimp die, I dont know how likely that would be. I dont need the LFCD for blackpowder, I could go back to roll crimping. But I need it for smokeless to get a good burn with H4198, otherwise I get a lot of unburnt powder.
I now have to buy a whole new bag of brass, bit I find myself reluctant to do it, because I know I will go through the whole lot of them in a couple of months probably. I cant afford to pay for the brass at this rate.
I read about some people getting 20+ reloads with their .44-40 brass and I just wish I could do that. My brass does not last long. They are lucky if they last three or four times and then they develop splits.
What am I doing wrong?
Brass is Starline, although I have the same problem with Win and RP as well. My bores are .430 and I am loading cast bullets the same size. I am using Lee dies. I do not resize my black powder cases, I just expand the necks/mouth using the expander die for a .44 Magnum. I crimp lightly with a Lee FCD.
For smokeless I do resize the cases and expand them with the same .44 mag expander die. These get a heavy crimp with the lee crimp die.
My black powder cases last a bit longer than the smokeless, maybe one reload more only though.
I might be wrong but I seem to remember that I didnt really start getting split case mouths until I started using a .44 magnum expander die. I used to expand with the normal .44/40 Lee die, but bullets were seating crooked, and I was getting bulges and bad runout, no matter how I tried, I couldnt get a bullet seated straight. I then went to the .44 magnum expander and this problem went away.
Someone suggested it could be the Lee factory crimp die, I dont know how likely that would be. I dont need the LFCD for blackpowder, I could go back to roll crimping. But I need it for smokeless to get a good burn with H4198, otherwise I get a lot of unburnt powder.
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Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Sounds like you may be over-expanding the case mouths, resulting in overworking the brass. The die should be adjusted to flare the neck only enough to barely accept the base of the bullet before seating and crimping. This requires care in making sure the bullet is seated straight, but to bell it more for ease of seating gets pretty expensive pretty quickly in terms of ruined brass.
- Carlsen Highway
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Thinking of that myself I have adjusted the expanding die so it is expanding the case mouth only barely wide enough to accept the base of the bullet - I can't do it any less and still barely start a bullet.
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Mark Twain
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- Shasta
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I would suggest annealing your cases. It works very well for me and I get much longer case life. There are several ways it can be accomplished without spending much money. I shoot a lot so went ahead and spent over $500 on a Bench-Source annealer. I am very happy with it:
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- GunnyMack
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
My thoughts as well Shasta!
I would get new cases, sacrifice 10, 5 to use crimp die 5 for roll crimp and then reload those until failure after annealing the necks. You might find the crimp die might be the culprit.
Don't get me wrong I love the crimp die but mostly for high pressure rifle. Roll crimp my pistol cases...
I would get new cases, sacrifice 10, 5 to use crimp die 5 for roll crimp and then reload those until failure after annealing the necks. You might find the crimp die might be the culprit.
Don't get me wrong I love the crimp die but mostly for high pressure rifle. Roll crimp my pistol cases...
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- Carlsen Highway
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I forgot to mention that I had tried annealing the cases, I have done it using a candle. It seemed to improve things for about one more reload maybe two. I will do as you suggest and test two sets of new cases with roll crimp versus FCD and see what happens.
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- GunnyMack
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Maybe even try to find a taper crimp... I think you are working the case mouth too much...
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- Carlsen Highway
- Levergunner 2.0
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Yeah, I must be. Does anyone else expand cases with a .44 magnum expander die?
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Mark Twain
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
The less you work the brass the longer it will last. I never have a problem with 44-40 brass and I load for about 8 different guns of varying vintages from 1881-2000 or so from Marlins, Winchesters, Colts, long guns and revolvers. Pisgah is absolutely correct on the belling but there is also another issue. 44-40 sizing dies will size a case down more than a 44 mag/Spl die. If you use a larger 44 magnum expander, you will be working the brass several thousandths more than if you use a 44-40 expander which is usually .003 slimmer.
By loading .430 bullets in a case that has been expanded by a 44-40 expander, the finished round looks a little goofy but they shoot just as good. I'm thinking your FLS is cut on the minimum and is squeezing the brass down a lot more than it needs to be. If you can, get another sizer. I load all of my 44-40's with .430-.431 bullets except an old Marlin that has a .425 groove diameter and for that one I size .427
You can also anneal just the case mouth by hitting it with a torch ....no need to go the benchrest method.....just flame the mouth for a couple of seconds then tip them over in the water or you can just leave them in the water. -----6
By loading .430 bullets in a case that has been expanded by a 44-40 expander, the finished round looks a little goofy but they shoot just as good. I'm thinking your FLS is cut on the minimum and is squeezing the brass down a lot more than it needs to be. If you can, get another sizer. I load all of my 44-40's with .430-.431 bullets except an old Marlin that has a .425 groove diameter and for that one I size .427
You can also anneal just the case mouth by hitting it with a torch ....no need to go the benchrest method.....just flame the mouth for a couple of seconds then tip them over in the water or you can just leave them in the water. -----6
- Carlsen Highway
- Levergunner 2.0
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Okay you have given me an idea - I never actually tried the 44wcf expander die with unsized cases.
If I dont resize them at all - which I dont need to with blackpowder; fired cases chamber fine in my '73 - and only bell the mouths just enough with the .44wcf die to start a bullet, I bet they would seat straight. And then if I lightly crimp with a roll crimp, because all I am doing is hold the bullet in place, then I reckon I couldn't be working the brass less than this?
If I dont resize them at all - which I dont need to with blackpowder; fired cases chamber fine in my '73 - and only bell the mouths just enough with the .44wcf die to start a bullet, I bet they would seat straight. And then if I lightly crimp with a roll crimp, because all I am doing is hold the bullet in place, then I reckon I couldn't be working the brass less than this?
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Mark Twain
- earlmck
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I also use the 44 mag expander with the 44/40, because my 44/40 gets loaded with .431 bullets, the same as I believe you are doing and I get a goodly number of reloads (enough that I don't feel the need to keep track of # of loads). I don't think you are doing anything that should give you those neck splits that quickly -- I think you just got unlucky with that batch of brass.
My bet is that new brass will behave much better and life will be good.
My bet is that new brass will behave much better and life will be good.
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is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
My trick for annealing is to use my lead pot . Fill it to within a half inch of the top, put a case in some slip jaw pliers in the place meant for grasping something round and dunk it for a second or two. Lead wont stick because of the powder soot. I just drop the cases on rags and let them air cool,then run them thru the tumbler. Works for me! YMMV
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WIL TERRY
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- Carlsen Highway
- Levergunner 2.0
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Earl, I hope so.
Ben - that is a good idea! I might try that out too
Ben - that is a good idea! I might try that out too
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I too use the 44 Mag expander on my 44-40s as I load bullets sized .429. I even use them in my Colt SAAs but I have to use Starline or Winchester brass. Anything else, (Remington) is too thick and won't chamber in the Colts. Works just fine in the Uberti 73s though. I almost never have a split case and I full length size them all and my brass has been loaded a bunch and never annealed. I use the Lee FCD on them all too.
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Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
My expander plug is .429, I use .428 sized bullets, never have any trouble. I've been using the same old Lyman dies for nearly 25 years.
Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
Carlsen Highway wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:15 am Guys, I have been continually getting split case mouths in my .44-40 brass. I mean, its a chronic situation.
I now have to buy a whole new bag of brass, bit I find myself reluctant to do it, because I know I will go through the whole lot of them in a couple of months probably. I cant afford to pay for the brass at this rate.
I read about some people getting 20+ reloads with their .44-40 brass and I just wish I could do that. My brass does not last long. They are lucky if they last three or four times and then they develop splits.
What am I doing wrong?
Brass is Starline, although I have the same problem with Win and RP as well. My bores are .430 and I am loading cast bullets the same size. I am using Lee dies. I do not resize my black powder cases, I just expand the necks/mouth using the expander die for a .44 Magnum. I crimp lightly with a Lee FCD.
For smokeless I do resize the cases and expand them with the same .44 mag expander die. These get a heavy crimp with the lee crimp die.
My black powder cases last a bit longer than the smokeless, maybe one reload more only though.
I might be wrong but I seem to remember that I didnt really start getting split case mouths until I started using a .44 magnum expander die. I used to expand with the normal .44/40 Lee die, but bullets were seating crooked, and I was getting bulges and bad runout, no matter how I tried, I couldnt get a bullet seated straight. I then went to the .44 magnum expander and this problem went away.
Someone suggested it could be the Lee factory crimp die, I dont know how likely that would be. I dont need the LFCD for blackpowder, I could go back to roll crimping. But I need it for smokeless to get a good burn with H4198, otherwise I get a lot of unburnt powder.
probably that 44 mag expander is a couple of thousands bigger than what the 44 WCF needs.
that plus (usually) thinner case mouths is bound to be a problem sooner or later - sounds like sooner in your case.
Merle from PA
Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I had the same problem with the 45 Colt years ago when I fired them in my S&W model 25-5 that had an oversize cylinder. The casing were expanding too much when I fired them and after resizing them a couple times they would split. I eventually replaced the cylinder which solved the problem. It sounds like you are expanding them too much. I would try one of the tapered mouth expanders made for loading cast bullets in rifle cases. I made one for my 30 caliber rifles and it made seating the bullets much easier without shaving lead.
Re: .44 WCF and split case mouths
I've been using Star Line and old Remington Peters brass. The Remington brass was all given to me and has been reloaded before...these are the ones I'm losing because of splits at/near the shoulder. Have not had a neck mouth split yet.
I've reloaded some of both brands brass as much as five times. I did ruin a few Star Lines trying to get a good crimp with my Lee dies and jacketed bullets. I imagine I will be losing some more brass from neck splits because I've ramped-up .44-40 production.
I've reloaded some of both brands brass as much as five times. I did ruin a few Star Lines trying to get a good crimp with my Lee dies and jacketed bullets. I imagine I will be losing some more brass from neck splits because I've ramped-up .44-40 production.