Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
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Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
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Today, I stopped in to an LGS that I haven't been in, for one reason or another, since last Eastertide - and hawked an IMO graceful, petite 20ga rabbit-ear double.
The decorated top rib is marked: "ACIER (Steel) MANNESMAN SPECIAL"
It sported a round bottom action & back action locks, with 28-1/2" extractor barrels, weighs in @ about 5-1/2 lbs, and is in virtually perfect condition.
I just GOTTA get it out birding........
.
Today, I stopped in to an LGS that I haven't been in, for one reason or another, since last Eastertide - and hawked an IMO graceful, petite 20ga rabbit-ear double.
The decorated top rib is marked: "ACIER (Steel) MANNESMAN SPECIAL"
It sported a round bottom action & back action locks, with 28-1/2" extractor barrels, weighs in @ about 5-1/2 lbs, and is in virtually perfect condition.
I just GOTTA get it out birding........
.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
That is quite a nice little fowling piece. Hope it shoots for you as well as it looks.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
That's really pretty. I have always been a fig fan of 20 ga guns.
jb
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
How sweet it is !!!
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
That is real gun porn, absolutely beautiful. A real fine grouse and rabbit gun.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
+1
Man, that is just gorgeous!
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Make that a +2 -- would love to find one like that!
Have fun with it!
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
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Thanks for the kind words, folks !
I'll clear shooting it with my cardiologist Tuesday afternoon - what could possibly go wrong ? .
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Thanks for the kind words, folks !
I'll clear shooting it with my cardiologist Tuesday afternoon - what could possibly go wrong ? .
.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
DON'T RISK IT!!!
Be Safe!!! Send it to me -- I'll test it for you!!!
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
That is one really great find, I love hammer guns and now I'm really jealous..........
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Really lovely hammer double. Any more ideas on who made it and where?
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Bill, I'm just unsure.........Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:28 am Really lovely hammer double. Any more ideas on who made it and where?
The top rib is Marked "ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL", so I think it may have been made by someone named MannemanN.
The action watertable has what looks like a Belgian proofmark (a crowned vertical oval), but instead of the normal "E" over "L G" inside the oval, it's marked "M" over "C M" - which I cannot find a clue to.
Also, unlike most European guns, only one barrel bottom is stamped with the gauge (instead of each barrel being marked), and there's no indication of chamber length on either barrel.
Furthermore, one barrel bottom (chamber area) is marked "CHOKE", and both barrel bottoms have no choke designation (stars, numbers, whatever).
Going forward, I intend to measure the chamber length before I fire it, in case it's chambered for a 2-1/2" shell ILO the 2-3/4" or 3" shells - and then pattern it to determine the chokes.
I'd also appreciate any information that someone here may have about both the maker and the gun's specifications.
FWIW, I was able to buy it for chump change, because one of the hammers wouldn't stay cocked - when I disassembled the lock, I found the tumbler had worn/soft cocking & half-cock notches (maybe that barrel was fired many, many times, exclusively - since the opposite lock's tumbler was perfect).
I recut the notches and later surface hardened the tumbler with Kasenit, so at least the lock's operational now, anyway.
.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Beautiful...I love 20s, especially in doubles
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
That's really something...I love doubles.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
I love those back action locks! Man that's nice.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
beautiful gun!Pete44ru wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:56 amBill, I'm just unsure.........Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:28 am Really lovely hammer double. Any more ideas on who made it and where?
The top rib is Marked "ACIER MANNEMAN SPECIAL", so I think it may have been made by someone named MannemanN.
The action watertable has what looks like a Belgian proofmark (a crowned vertical oval), but instead of the normal "E" over "L G" inside the oval, it's marked "M" over "C M" - which I cannot find a clue to.
Also, unlike most European guns, only one barrel bottom is stamped with the gauge (instead of each barrel being marked), and there's no indication of chamber length on either barrel.
Furthermore, one barrel bottom (chamber area) is marked "CHOKE", and both barrel bottoms have no choke designation (stars, numbers, whatever).
Going forward, I intend to measure the chamber length before I fire it, in case it's chambered for a 2-1/2" shell ILO the 2-3/4" or 3" shells - and then pattern it to determine the chokes.
I'd also appreciate any information that someone here may have about both the maker and the gun's specifications.
FWIW, I was able to buy it for chump change, because one of the hammers wouldn't stay cocked - when I disassembled the lock, I found the tumbler had worn/soft cocking & half-cock notches (maybe that barrel was fired many, many times, exclusively - since the opposite lock's tumbler was perfect).
I recut the notches and later surface hardened the tumbler with Kasenit, so at least the lock's operational now, anyway.
.
I do have two comments, one of which was chamber length - the second was are you sure it is not Damascus steel?
Merle from PA
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
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Merle - AFAIK, the term "ACIER" ("steel" in French), stamped into the top rib, has never been applied to a twist or Damascus barrel(s).
Additionally, there's no trace of a Damascus pattern anywhere in the protected/hidden portions of the barrels.
The barrels, BTW, each barrel "rings" true & loud, when struck with a knuckle while being hung from the barrel lumps.
.
Merle - AFAIK, the term "ACIER" ("steel" in French), stamped into the top rib, has never been applied to a twist or Damascus barrel(s).
Additionally, there's no trace of a Damascus pattern anywhere in the protected/hidden portions of the barrels.
The barrels, BTW, each barrel "rings" true & loud, when struck with a knuckle while being hung from the barrel lumps.
.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
What a beauty.
I too have a soft spot for the old hammer doubles. Which side wouldn't stay cocked. The reason I ask is I have seen several over the years like that and most were on the left side. An old smith once told me the reason was the right side always was fired first, and the recoil would bounce the left side hammer so eventually it no longer stays cocked.
As light as that gun is I can see where the recoil could cause that.
Here's the last one I redid.
Started out looking like this.
It's a Belgian copy of a Wesley Richards. Was worth about $200. Now after about $2000 in work it's worth about $300
Sometimes I think the soft spot is in my head
I too have a soft spot for the old hammer doubles. Which side wouldn't stay cocked. The reason I ask is I have seen several over the years like that and most were on the left side. An old smith once told me the reason was the right side always was fired first, and the recoil would bounce the left side hammer so eventually it no longer stays cocked.
As light as that gun is I can see where the recoil could cause that.
Here's the last one I redid.
Started out looking like this.
It's a Belgian copy of a Wesley Richards. Was worth about $200. Now after about $2000 in work it's worth about $300
Sometimes I think the soft spot is in my head
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Pete,
That’s a nice hammer gun Pete. It’s probably older than we are supposing. Proof markings increased with time as laws evolved. It may be late 1800’s. A while back I studied German proofs to identify an HA Lindner double and found there were many less proofs in the black powder era.
In addition to checking chamber length, definitely check that the barrels are on face and the action is tight. Also because the gun has been refinished, you may want to check barrel wall thickness to make sure no one overdid honing out the barrels to remove pitting in the bores. Or conversely that the exteriors weren’t over polished.
You seem to have a good handle on the technicalities since you’ve already recut sear notches and case hardened. Good luck with the gun and I hope it turns out to be a sweet shooter.
If you ever want to work our Rhode Island connection and get together to discuss vintage bird guns, let me know. Yesterday my son and I had two 100 year old doubles out for stocked pheasants and our club. He shot a Parker VH and I had a Fox A grade with ejectors. Over the last few years I’ve done a number or rehab labors of love on project bird guns. Not refinishing, but mechanical repairs and left the patina. My teenage son now enjoys shooting vintage doubles almost as much as I do. Still have several project guns in progress as time permits around work and coaching football.
Jason
That’s a nice hammer gun Pete. It’s probably older than we are supposing. Proof markings increased with time as laws evolved. It may be late 1800’s. A while back I studied German proofs to identify an HA Lindner double and found there were many less proofs in the black powder era.
In addition to checking chamber length, definitely check that the barrels are on face and the action is tight. Also because the gun has been refinished, you may want to check barrel wall thickness to make sure no one overdid honing out the barrels to remove pitting in the bores. Or conversely that the exteriors weren’t over polished.
You seem to have a good handle on the technicalities since you’ve already recut sear notches and case hardened. Good luck with the gun and I hope it turns out to be a sweet shooter.
If you ever want to work our Rhode Island connection and get together to discuss vintage bird guns, let me know. Yesterday my son and I had two 100 year old doubles out for stocked pheasants and our club. He shot a Parker VH and I had a Fox A grade with ejectors. Over the last few years I’ve done a number or rehab labors of love on project bird guns. Not refinishing, but mechanical repairs and left the patina. My teenage son now enjoys shooting vintage doubles almost as much as I do. Still have several project guns in progress as time permits around work and coaching football.
Jason
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Pete, wondering if it is a Spanish gun. You might ask over at the Double Gun Journal forum. Those guys really know their shotties over there.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Acier is French for steel, so the gun is either from France or the French speaking region of Belgium. That alone should rule out Spain. Also the word "Special" is English, so that may indicate the gun was made to export to an English speaking country. My gut feel is late 1800's Belgium, but I'm sure Pete will research the markings more deeply and let us know what he finds out.
Once you get the secret proofmark decoder ring, you can narrow down old English or continental doubles to certain ranges based on how marking requirements evolved over time.
Jason
Once you get the secret proofmark decoder ring, you can narrow down old English or continental doubles to certain ranges based on how marking requirements evolved over time.
Jason
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
.
Thanks for the input, gang !
Steve - it was the left lock's tumbler that had the cocking notches half (width) chewed away, almost as if the left barrel was fired to the almost total exclusion of the right barrel (which usually has the more open choke, for that 1st/close shot on flushing game).
FWIW, I have a LOT of experience with refinishing & refinished guns, and proofs to the contrary, this gun doesn't raise any red flags with me, since it looks fairly new, upon my thorough examination.
Although almost every refinished gun I've examined previously showed some evidence of the refinishing, somewhere (usually in a hidden area), I'm just not finding any such evidence with this one - leading me to believe that if it has been refinished, it was done by a real perfectionist.
What gives me pause, however, are the lack of modern proof's and chamber length designations - which I know are always missing in the case of guns made prior to the introductions of (1st) 2-3/4" shells, and (later) 3" shells, when shell lengths weren't marked on the guns because at the time, there were only single/early length shells made in whatever gauge (IOW, before the longer versions were invented/introduced).
If (when I get aroundtoit) the chambers prove to be 2-1/2" long, I'll most likely obtain some low-pressure 2-1/2" ammo from the likes of RST or Kent Cartridges.
[EDIT: I measured both chambers, and found them to be 2-3/4" long ! ! I yam a happy camper ! ]
Jason - I might take you up on a meet, when I'm feeling better/up to it (I'm still recuperating & undergoing cardio rehab) - once upon a time, I hade two other pristine/original classic doubles, a 1937 Remington Parker 16a Sheet Gun (in/out chokes), and a 1908 A.H.Fox AE grade 20ga (both bought for chump change, then sold to finance my early retirement).
Bill, since I'm registered over on the Doublegunshop forum, I have sent a request for info to them this AM, attaching all revelant pics, etc.
Hopefully, I'll hear back from them soon.
Time will tell, and I'll post any results I get - which so far is only an educated guess from a shotgunworld.com forum member (ellenbr), that it may be a gun made by (possibly) an Italian concern (C.L.A.) with parts ordered "in-the-white" from central Europe, somewhere - a guess because the advisor didn't recognize the proofmarks or what's presumed to be the maker's mark (a stamped "C.L.A." on a barrel bottom).
[ EDIT: BTW, I finally found a use for the new, luggage-style case I found 2 years ago @ a yard sale.]
.
Thanks for the input, gang !
Steve - it was the left lock's tumbler that had the cocking notches half (width) chewed away, almost as if the left barrel was fired to the almost total exclusion of the right barrel (which usually has the more open choke, for that 1st/close shot on flushing game).
FWIW, I have a LOT of experience with refinishing & refinished guns, and proofs to the contrary, this gun doesn't raise any red flags with me, since it looks fairly new, upon my thorough examination.
Although almost every refinished gun I've examined previously showed some evidence of the refinishing, somewhere (usually in a hidden area), I'm just not finding any such evidence with this one - leading me to believe that if it has been refinished, it was done by a real perfectionist.
What gives me pause, however, are the lack of modern proof's and chamber length designations - which I know are always missing in the case of guns made prior to the introductions of (1st) 2-3/4" shells, and (later) 3" shells, when shell lengths weren't marked on the guns because at the time, there were only single/early length shells made in whatever gauge (IOW, before the longer versions were invented/introduced).
If (when I get aroundtoit) the chambers prove to be 2-1/2" long, I'll most likely obtain some low-pressure 2-1/2" ammo from the likes of RST or Kent Cartridges.
[EDIT: I measured both chambers, and found them to be 2-3/4" long ! ! I yam a happy camper ! ]
Jason - I might take you up on a meet, when I'm feeling better/up to it (I'm still recuperating & undergoing cardio rehab) - once upon a time, I hade two other pristine/original classic doubles, a 1937 Remington Parker 16a Sheet Gun (in/out chokes), and a 1908 A.H.Fox AE grade 20ga (both bought for chump change, then sold to finance my early retirement).
Bill, since I'm registered over on the Doublegunshop forum, I have sent a request for info to them this AM, attaching all revelant pics, etc.
Hopefully, I'll hear back from them soon.
Time will tell, and I'll post any results I get - which so far is only an educated guess from a shotgunworld.com forum member (ellenbr), that it may be a gun made by (possibly) an Italian concern (C.L.A.) with parts ordered "in-the-white" from central Europe, somewhere - a guess because the advisor didn't recognize the proofmarks or what's presumed to be the maker's mark (a stamped "C.L.A." on a barrel bottom).
[ EDIT: BTW, I finally found a use for the new, luggage-style case I found 2 years ago @ a yard sale.]
.
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
If the right side firing recoils enough to bounce the left side that would be like firing the left side twice as much. Maybe that old gunsmith was on to something.Pete44ru wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:51 pm .
Thanks for the input, gang !
Steve - it was the left lock's tumbler that had the cocking notches half (width) chewed away, almost as if the left barrel was fired to the almost total exclusion of the right barrel (which usually has the more open choke, for that 1st/close shot on flushing game).
BTW, Looks great in that case.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
.
Thanks, Steve ! .
I got one of my questions answered:
Given that the top of the barrel rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL (Mannesmann ?):
* Was this gun made by someone named Mannesmann ?
- [Not likely - I've since found out that Mannesmann Group made steel tubes, so it looks like "Acier Mannesman" (Mannesmann steel) was used for the barrels, and so advertised on the top rib]
* Could the barrels be Damascus, even though I can find no pattern and AFAIK, "acier" is French for steel ?
- [ No (see above )]
* Might it have 2-1/2" chambers, since there's no chamber length marks ?
- [ The chambers measured out @ 2-3/4" long]
.
Thanks, Steve ! .
I got one of my questions answered:
Given that the top of the barrel rib is marked: ACIER MANNESMAN SPECIAL (Mannesmann ?):
* Was this gun made by someone named Mannesmann ?
- [Not likely - I've since found out that Mannesmann Group made steel tubes, so it looks like "Acier Mannesman" (Mannesmann steel) was used for the barrels, and so advertised on the top rib]
* Could the barrels be Damascus, even though I can find no pattern and AFAIK, "acier" is French for steel ?
- [ No (see above )]
* Might it have 2-1/2" chambers, since there's no chamber length marks ?
- [ The chambers measured out @ 2-3/4" long]
.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
Pete,
First off, the shotgun looks right at home in that case. I remember your yardsale find post. Well done!
Now, I supposed your shotgun to be refinished for two reasons: One is that the bluing appears to my eye to be a modern hot salt blue versus an old fashioned rust bluing. Second is that the action, lock plates, and small parts are all blued. On traditional side by sides, the barrels are typically blued and the receiver and lock plates left bare to show the case hardening. Also I see the white line spacer on the butt plate which says the finishing was done sometime when white line spacers were en vogue.
Thus, with the modern finish on a gun of antiquated styling made me think it was an old gun with newly applied finish. I looked up your thread on the shotgun forum and honestly the idea of a modern manufactured parts kit had not crossed my mind. Please do keep us posted on any final determination.
We all love a good research project and trying to solve the mystery of our latest find is one of the things we all enjoy about gun collecting. That aside though, assuming the action and barrels are sound, you now have a functional and dandy bird gun, with external hammers for extra challenge and style, and now stored in a sharp case!
Are the locks of rebounding type, or must you manually reset the hammers to half cock to retract the firing pins before opening the gun?
Take care of your health. You can get a hold of me if you'd like to take a look at it together.
Jason
First off, the shotgun looks right at home in that case. I remember your yardsale find post. Well done!
Now, I supposed your shotgun to be refinished for two reasons: One is that the bluing appears to my eye to be a modern hot salt blue versus an old fashioned rust bluing. Second is that the action, lock plates, and small parts are all blued. On traditional side by sides, the barrels are typically blued and the receiver and lock plates left bare to show the case hardening. Also I see the white line spacer on the butt plate which says the finishing was done sometime when white line spacers were en vogue.
Thus, with the modern finish on a gun of antiquated styling made me think it was an old gun with newly applied finish. I looked up your thread on the shotgun forum and honestly the idea of a modern manufactured parts kit had not crossed my mind. Please do keep us posted on any final determination.
We all love a good research project and trying to solve the mystery of our latest find is one of the things we all enjoy about gun collecting. That aside though, assuming the action and barrels are sound, you now have a functional and dandy bird gun, with external hammers for extra challenge and style, and now stored in a sharp case!
Are the locks of rebounding type, or must you manually reset the hammers to half cock to retract the firing pins before opening the gun?
Take care of your health. You can get a hold of me if you'd like to take a look at it together.
Jason
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
.
Thanks for the info & the heads-up regarding the hammers/firing pin retraction, Jason - I'll check it out.
Just to be on the safe side, I ordered some low-pressure 2-1/2" ammo from RST to use - I don't think the birds/small game would know the difference.
I'll shoot you a PM about getting together, maybe for lunch somewhere (Evelyn's Clam Shack in Tiverton ?), when I've regained some stamina (aka: P & vinegar )
.
Thanks for the info & the heads-up regarding the hammers/firing pin retraction, Jason - I'll check it out.
Just to be on the safe side, I ordered some low-pressure 2-1/2" ammo from RST to use - I don't think the birds/small game would know the difference.
I'll shoot you a PM about getting together, maybe for lunch somewhere (Evelyn's Clam Shack in Tiverton ?), when I've regained some stamina (aka: P & vinegar )
.
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
go in peace..and sin no more... :)
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Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
You know, when I stalk the gunshows I never buy retail. I look for broken guns that people want to dump.Pete44ru wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:56 am...FWIW, I was able to buy it for chump change, because one of the hammers wouldn't stay cocked - when I disassembled the lock, I found the tumbler had worn/soft cocking & half-cock notches (maybe that barrel was fired many, many times, exclusively - since the opposite lock's tumbler was perfect).Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:28 am Really lovely hammer double. Any more ideas on who made it and where?
I recut the notches and later surface hardened the tumbler with Kasenit, so at least the lock's operational now, anyway.
I got my NAA Guardian for ... barely over 3 decimals ... because it was "broken".
NAA fixed it gratis and it's been my EDC/BUG for about 15 years now.
Broken can be Beautiful...
RE:
Check out http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html That's where I get my low pressure ("Vintager") short 16ga shells...
Last edited by Old Ironsights on Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Re: Bless Me Father, I Fell In Lust Today
.
FWIW, while surfing for info about Belgian gun marks today, I read that Belgian shotguns with only the word "CHOKE" and the bore size, which is what's stamped onto the barrel bottom of this example, were made after 1924 - which leads me to believe that this gun may have also been made after 1924 ?
.
FWIW, while surfing for info about Belgian gun marks today, I read that Belgian shotguns with only the word "CHOKE" and the bore size, which is what's stamped onto the barrel bottom of this example, were made after 1924 - which leads me to believe that this gun may have also been made after 1924 ?
.