Home Defense Revisited

[Comal Forge]

Scott's thread and another a while back made me think about a related aspect of home defense...

First off, I'll share a few stories - then ask a question:

First story - I once worked with a man married to a gal whose parents ran a string of pawn shops in San Antonio. Shortly after they were hitched, they were over at her folks' house - eating snacks and playing cards one evening. Without warning, the front door was kicked in - deadbolt and all went flying - and down the hallway came three masked men with shotguns. They tied everyone up and took their time cleaning out about $50K in cash, jewelry and guns that the shop owners kept at home. After they left, Greg's wife eventually got loose and freed everyone before calling the law. This event occurred about 7-8 years before we met but it still gave him obvious chills to retell. Of course, thoughts of rape and/or murder were in his mind but fortunately, these guys just wanted money and no one was hurt. The shop owners had loaded guns all over the house (one was behind the front door) but they did not have time to obtain one and put it into action.

Second story - my wife and I live in a semi-rural area so the closest neighbor is about 300 yds away, plus we are on a dead end road and don't see many strangers at the house. One weekend, my second son came home with his girlfriend for the weekend, ate supper with us and left for town about dark. My wife and I were watching TV when we saw headlights coming down the drive. My son and his girl came in the front door and we all talked for a few seconds. I had already put the dogs in the garage around 10 pm and the kids got home at 11. I happened to be looking out the back window when a white flash caught my eye. My mind was still processing when it happened again - this time, I saw a young man, late teens to early twenties, running by the window going the other way in a white and blue basketball uniform (tank top and shorts). My son also saw him - so we looked at each other then ran down the hallway for the shotguns. We went out the door with the Q-beam but he was already gone. I found tracks the next morning about 7 feet apart so he was flying as he ran down the lane. We did not report it to the police but notified the neighbors and everyone was on high alert for a few days. We assume he was a peeping Tom and have not seen him again.

Last story - Some years ago, before my youngest son was driving, I dropped him at school one morning and came back home to take a shower and go to work. While I was undressing, I heard an engine and looked outside to see a green Ford truck containing two Hispanic males, moving quickly and pulling up to the barn. I immediately concluded they were after tools so I pulled on a pair of jeans and ran barefooted to the back door. However, on the way outside, I did not pick up any of the three loaded weapons which were in arm's reach when I first looked through the window. Instead, I was focused on what they were going after. Of course, they could have crossed the yard and been at the back door by the time I got there but fortunately, they were going through the gate and running toward the back pasture. A minute later, an Immigration vehicle showed up with an officer in hot pursuit. He did not apprehend them but did confiscate the truck. Turns out he had chased them from I-35 to my house.

Lest you think I am a complete idiot, I trained in the martial arts for many years against surprise attacks on the street and am familiar with hand to hand combat and firearms use. I never panicked in either case but readily concede that I made the wrong decisions in both situations - or at least, made slow decisions. In summary, all three events could have ended tragically and been summarized as, "Ways to Lose a Gunfight". In all of these instances, surprise worked against the homeowner(s) and nobody was able to engage the adversary and/or act to pick up a firearm and investigate an unusual situation until the event was duly processed in everyone's mind. I would assume it's even worse at 3 am after being sound asleep for a few hours.

So, finally - here's the question: Where do you put the guns for ready access and should you carry on your person, at home, ALL the time? How much do you practice and how soon do you shoot? Seems to me that we sit around in our houses in front of the TV or the computer 99% of the time - but when the deal goes down, conditioned responses mean everything to winning or losing.

Long-winded but maybe relevant...hope I didn't bore everyone to death.

[Old Savage]

The sock drawer.

[Jason_W]

While it may get me blackballed from the forum to admit this, I don't keep guns loaded in the house as a practice.

It's mostly a habit. My parents would not allow a loaded gun indoors when I was growing up, so it kinda stuck.

[ScottT]

When I answer the door, I generally have a gun in my hand. Too many years of police work to make me too trusting. But I live in a place where you just don't have folks knocking on your door.

Anybody can be had. I would be an easy mark for a professional who wanted me. But I just am not important or valuable enough for a professional to care about me.

Non-professionals? Well, I have dealt with them all my adult life. They need to be lucky too.

An observation: Anybody who keeps $50k in cash at their home should be very careful of who they let know about it.

[Jeff Pitts]

There are a couple loaded 1911's in my bedroom among others, about 15' from the front door. I would hope to have enough time to retrieve one. At night just about anyone is screwed if someone kicks in a door. Unless they were sitting with a pistol in their hand..........

Jeff

[ScottT]

While it may get me blackballed from the forum to admit this, I don't keep guns loaded in the house as a practice.

It's mostly a habit. My parents would not allow a loaded gun indoors when I was growing up, so it kinda stuck.

Well, there you go. No need to worry about shooting drunk disoriented college students if you don't have a loaded gun.

I guess it bears repeating:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let your muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target.

[Jason_W]

Well, there you go. No need to worry about shooting drunk disoriented college students if you don't have a loaded gun.

I guess it bears repeating:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let your muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target.

Who knows. My views and opinions could change if I ever had some sort of a close call (with a goblin, that is). Experience is often what changes minds.

I've been very fortunate thus far.

[AJMD429]

Best weapon I ever had 'on hand' was when a couple trespassers were coming out of our back woods, and I just happened to be dumping out a bag of 14 baby copperhead snakes. I'd had two females in a cage, and both gave birth, so I pickled a couple and put them in acrylic, and turned loose the others. Just as the yahoos came down the path, I was standing there dumping out the snakes. One said "Them's SNAKES!" and I said in a calm voice - "Yep - we raise 'em to milk out the venom and sell to the drug companies." (which wasn't true but sounded good) I told them we'd been doing it about ten years, and there were hundreds and hundreds of snakes we'd turned loose in woodpiles all through the area.

They probably found somewhere else to poach after that.

As far as guns, it seems like if they aren't on your person, they're apt to be too far away, although a decent layer of gates, dogs, guinea hens, and sturdy doors ought to buy you some time. Someone 'targets' anyone, and that's a different matter, but the random peeper or thief can at least be pushed towards a 'softer' target most of the time. When we were kids, we never did anything 'bad' other than soap some windows and so on, but the five mile walk to town would always be in our imagination an escape from Stalag 13, and every vehicle one to hide from as if our life depended on it; we'd cut through fields and places we shouldn't have, but we'd not go anywhere near dogs (might be Nazi tracking dogs), or climb 'house' type fences (might have trip wires), so I guess even back then we were being steered a bit. I think we realized that a farmer may be annoyed if you're cutting across his back forty (which we did), and really annoyed if you're fishing in his pond (which we wouldn't do), but he'd probably start shooting if you climbed the chain-link and came up to his window.

[Malamute]

I also live where people don't just "show up" at the door. The dogs hear anyone opening the gate to the yard, or anyone pulling in off the road. My door isnt likely to be kicked in,....2x8 rough cut fir, splined edges, 2x6 Z braces bolted to the door with carriage bolts, oak door bolt latch that mortises into a 3x16 plank frame, 3 heavy T hinges. Log walls. Maybe a pickup truck could get thru it, but that wouldnt be easy to arrange either,.....

In any event, there's short and long guns within 2 steps in the cabin, at both ends, (near the door, and away from the door). I never step out the door without something, as it's good mountain lion and black and grizzly country, or very close to same. The biggest thing is, there simply isnt much person to person crime here. I'm more concerned about large varmints than people, but am aware that help is a long ways off, IF you were able to call for it (cell phones don't work that well here much of the time). If a problem arose, I figure I'm on my own.

[Retro]

My views and opinions could change if I ever had some sort of a close call (with a goblin, that is).

If you survive it. Which is much more likely for you than for me, statistically.

Here in South Africa we're not allowed to keep guns anywhere except in a safe or on our persons (basically). Also the in-safe guns are supposed to be unloaded.

But all guns are always loaded, we know that, don't we :-)

[Jaguarundi]

Well, there you go. No need to worry about shooting drunk disoriented college students if you don't have a loaded gun.

I guess it bears repeating:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let your muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target.

AMEN!

[neil mitchell]

Well, as I sit here typing this I have a gun in the top drawer of this desk just under my right hand. Got one in the end table shelf next to my recliner in the living room.Got a Colt 1911 in my bag on the floor to the left of my recliner (carry bag to my truck everytime I leave).Got one in my bathroom in a drawer in a little table I made to set my ashtray & reading material on while sitting on the throne.Leave my Ruger LCP in my truck at night.Got a Beretta 9mm under the bed within reach on my side. I always answer the door at night with a gun in my hand.
My sons and friends think I'm paranoid I don't care.If they get me it won't be because I didn't have a gun handy!

Neil

[El Chivo]

My apartment is small so I wouldn't have much time. I don't usually keep guns out but I do have K-Bars all over the place.

For a while I was sleeping with a shotgun next to me, unloaded and broken open. The shells are by my pillow. That's in case I don't hear them come in, and they pick up the shotgun. If I do hear them coming in, I'll have time to load it.

I have been lazy about it lately though. That's mostly because my place has been a mess. Hopefully I will get back in the routine.

I'm thinking of getting a revolver to take hunting and if so, might keep that out. I live alone and am usually up late, it might be smart to keep a revolver holstered. But we'll see.

[gamekeeper]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

[Tycer]

Beside my head at night. I grip it once when I lay down and again when I wake. The one on the night stand goes with me the rest of the day. I may still end up very much like your stories and not be fast enough. But I'm trying.

[AJMD429]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

Just keep a bottle of gun cleaner and a brush nearby; "Heck, I ALWAYS clean my guns at 3 a.m., officer - don't you?"

[Ysabel Kid]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

Just keep a bottle of gun cleaner and a brush nearby; "Heck, I ALWAYS clean my guns at 3 a.m., officer - don't you?"

+1 It always irritates me no end when I hear of any law-abiding person - anywhere - deprived of their God-given right to defend themselves and their loved ones. This is the goal of all who support gun control - never forget that!

[Hobie]

Well, there you go. No need to worry about shooting drunk disoriented college students if you don't have a loaded gun.

I guess it bears repeating:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let your muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Always be sure of your target.

Who knows. My views and opinions could change if I ever had some sort of a close call (with a goblin, that is). Experience is often what changes minds.

I've been very fortunate thus far.

You may only get the one and it will come at the worst possible moment.

[Hobie]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

I've posted a video that touches on this subject on my blog...

[Grizz]

It's a great topic. The element of surprise is on the agressor's side. I often have a handgun in my pocket when I'm in-and-out or if I leave the back door open for a breeze.

There's a redhawk within reach as I type, as well as a shotgun. My wife has a gun in her desk drawer. There's a gun in the bathroom. There's one stashed in the couch which often sits next to us when we're surfing.

I rely on my dog's senses, he has extrasensory perception, and I always have a gun when he alerts. He alerts for cats, dogs, birds, car brakes, car doors, and perps. I get up every time regardless of the time.

But I am slower than I've ever been, my hearing is shot, my eyesight isn't youthful, and I would probably have difficulty suspending disbelief if the home-invaders chose my place. Who wins that fight is something I constantly hope I never have to discover. Home invasions are getting more frequent around here. Not enough of 'em getting shot I suppose.

[Pete44ru]

Been there, did that - N.C. in the Summer of 1966, while doing the 2AM feeding of my new son.
I had a gun on me in the house at the time (fortunately) - and have never been without one on me since.

[alnitak]

I spend a lot of time on the Defensive Carry forum, where situations like this are discussed in some detail. The consensus opinion is that one should carry even when at home. Trying to get to a hidden or locked up gun after the BGs have invaded your home will be next to impossible. Besides, you will have to leave your loved ones in another room, upstairs, etc. while you go to retrieve your weapon. And if the BGs are between you and your weapon, you are SOL. Also, like many of you, I am not nearly so agile, stong and quick as I was 30 years ago. I suspect I would come out on the short end of any altercation with multiple BGs. So, I've been trying to get in the habit of carrying around the house and/or having the gun within easy reach, even to the point of taking it room-to-room as I move around.

The odds of anyone invading my house in the nice surburban community in which I live is slim, I know. But, if they do, the potential loss (family) is devastating. So, I prefer to be thought of as paranoid rather than unprepared.

[FWiedner]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

Just keep a bottle of gun cleaner and a brush nearby; "Heck, I ALWAYS clean my guns at 3 a.m., officer - don't you?"

+1 It always irritates me no end when I hear of any law-abiding person - anywhere - deprived of their God-given right to defend themselves and their loved ones. This is the goal of all who support gun control - never forget that!

Having helpless victims at their mercy is the ultimate goal of all those who exercise authority over other men to the extent that they demand others be disarmed either in their presence, or under any circumstance.

There is no difference between such authority and the criminal home invader. Either simply wants the ability to overpower you at their whim, without you being able to effectively resist or repel their aggression.

[J Miller]

I live in a small house. It's maybe 20X30 feet at the most. If someone were to smash in either front or back door there would not be enough time to acquire a weapon. So I've taken to placing them in each area, and I take one with me as I move around.

Paranoid, I don't think so. Overly cautious maybe. But I don't move fast at all anymore, and I'm not trained in any form of hand to hand combat. Considering the arthritis and other ailments it wouldn't do me much good if I was.
So I keep them handy.

And I pray to God I never need to use one. Ever.

Joe

[Old Ironsights]

CF... To be fair and not prejudice my first impression/opinion...

#1 - I don't leave guns lying around. I carry 24/7. Even at home and in a bathrobe. When sleeping, my Sidearm is in a holster mounted to my nightstand and reloads are on the nightstand.

If I need more than that, not even immediate acess to my M4 and a couple of mags will help. My SIdearm will give me enough time to retrieve it from my fall-back/safe room if necessary.

All the rest of my longarms are locked up to deter theft/inadvertant access/& minimal "compliance" with GCA 68.

[gamekeeper]

[quote="Hobieposted a video that touches on this subject on my blog...[/quote]

Thanks for posting that Video Hobie. My son and I were on that march and also we went on quite a few others defending our right to own handguns. I seem to only go to London these days to protest against the government.

I wish every American gun owner and gun hater would watch that Video to see what happens after you ban FREEDOM.

[505stevec]

Great topic. I have gotten into the habit of keeping a longarm leaning against the wall where I watch tv or computer time. Its just habit. My daughter at home knows guns and gun safety. I also just got a Beretta 21A .22 LR pistol. Great little gun for carrying ALL the time. In bed I have something there also. PARANOID??? I dont think so

[gamekeeper]

Here in the UK, we are not allowed to use a firearm for self defense unless we are threatened by someone with a gun. By the time you know that you are being threatened by some punk with a gun it would be too late!

We are supposed to keep our guns unloaded and locked in a safe. So when I'm home I take a shotgun or rifle out of the safe just to make sure it ain't gone rusty over night and if I think a "fox" will be calling after dark I make sure I have a gun and ammo ready!

Just keep a bottle of gun cleaner and a brush nearby; "Heck, I ALWAYS clean my guns at 3 a.m., officer - don't you?"

AJMD495, great minds think alike

[Comal Forge]

Thanks for all the responses - sounds like this touched a nerve with a few folks.

I think the element of surprise is the biggest issue. Most of us would be more competent than the average criminal with a firearm simply due to personal interest and practice - but overcoming the surprise and actually making the decision to not only arm oneself but to pull the trigger takes some doin'. There is a line from "The Shootist" where John Wayne tells Ron Howard that the difference between him and other men is that he won't hesitate - not even for a fraction of a second before pulling the trigger. That is a conversation which anyone who carries a weapon should have with themselves before the bullets start flying.

I've been in a few and seen several more street fights (hands and knives - no guns so far). Most evolve from a confrontation so the actors have some idea that action will follow - even though the final outcome might be in question. Watch the daily news for a few days in any major city and note the stabbings and domestic fights - very few are random or occur without prior warning. A gunfight ups the ante between life and death - but the average homeowner is not expecting to be attacked in the first place. Heck, even the smart criminals let their guard down and the law nabs them - or a competitor puts them down for good. How much truer for the average person who is focused on daily living and not confronting intruders?

Reckon I'll keep the 1911 nearby...

[Grizz]

I've been working on taking away that element of surprise. Lights that are motion activated help a lot at night, but are about useless during the day.

Except for the last one I picked up at home depot: about twenty bucks and it operates 2 halogen bulbs. One is trained on the door and the other on the driveway.

What I am going to do is see if I can access the motion sensor, which works during the day and you can watch it switch on and off, and hook that up to an interior alarm. The sensor can be aimed and has a 180 degree watch area or more. That's what I've been thinking about, a hardware hack to get a 24/7 alarm.

Then when I'm gone I plan to hook it up to a 200db horn that targets the entry area. That will keep most bgs out of the area.

If anyone's gotten a light sensor to sound an alarm I'd like to hear about it.

Grizz

[El Chivo]

another idea that may seem silly, some cameras and such are fake, but it encourages the criminal to strike elsewhere.

In ritzy neighborhoods there are plenty of "armed response" signs, with little lights trained on them. Some of those and you may not ever have to test your reflexes.

Not something to rely on, but it might help.

Another idea that I was working on was to have your place a mess. Then no human can navigate through there without knocking stuff over. You can rig the doors and windows with sleigh bells, etc, to give yourself some warning.

But overall I think you have to keep a weapon holstered.

[Jason_W]

I live in a one bedroom apartment above someone else's garage.

That doesn't really say "Come rob me, I have expensive stuff"

[donw]

i have a .45 or 9mm within arms length at all times. if anyone gets past our 125lb rottenweiler then he has to contend with the colt...day or nite.

here where i live, mt lions, coyotes and four legged critters do not pose the threat that the two legged ones do.

[Quick Karl]

I have either a USP Compact 9mm or 1911 45 at my side, cocked & locked, everywhere I go... yes, even to the bathroom/shower. I have a CCW and the only places I am not armed are places you can't legally be armed, according to the laws of my State, and that's it.

There have been many 'home invasions' here in the southwest - and I aint about to tolerate one.

Furthermore, given the state of the world, you just don’t know what’s going to happen anymore – I’d feel like a real turd were I to see any Islamic looking creeps wreaking havoc and be unable to respond in kind - and begging for allah’s mercy aint gonna happen to me.

Sure our ignorant liberal friends will call me paranoid… but when allah’s boys start in on them liberals that sure is going to be a show to behold.

[rjohns94]

i carry continually now with my Rohrbaugh 9mm in my back pocket when ever I am wearing my pants. While driving, while at home, at the barn, at work. Always. I shoot once a week min.

[Rexster]

I live in a one bedroom apartment above someone else's garage.

That doesn't really say "Come rob me, I have expensive stuff"

I am not picking on you; this is for anyone who lives in rental housing: Consider that the previous occupant may have been an amateur pharmacist, or some other highly-targeted type of person, and he may may have enemies who don't know he has moved. Perhaps a stalking victim has recently moved. Or, a jealous husband/boyfriend thinks his romantic rival still lives there. I have taken several reports over the years from people who were victimized, with indications the intended target was the previous tenant.

[Rexster]

Double-tap deleted.

[rimrock]

Given the times, a very good discussion. Like others maybe I'm a little paranoid, but I'm not publishing what my home defenses are because I don't know who reads this stuff. I think about potential BG as I practice with my tools of choice. I 'm just not 100% certain I could do as I intend if I were surprised.

[AJMD429]

Given the times, a very good discussion. Like others maybe I'm a little paranoid, but I'm not publishing what my home defenses are because I don't know who reads this stuff. I think about potential BG as I practice with my tools of choice. I 'm just not 100% certain I could do as I intend if I were surprised.

The same people who say it's 'paranoid' to have a gun handy, will tell you in the next breath how the streets are now so dangerous they're afraid to go out (unless we get some tough new gun control laws to 'protect' them). They also carry umbrellas in their car in case it rains, and think nothing of the dangerous fire extinguisher in the kitchen, which could be used to bludgeon someone to death, or tip over onto the gas burner and explode. But you're the 'paraoind' one if you feel some circumstances justify having a gun around.

Maybe it would be fair to say that in OTHER circumstances, it may be 'stupid' NOT to have a gun around.

I guess we each have to pick a team - 'paranoid' or 'stupid'

Jeff Cooper's 'Color codes' work for me - if I'm in an environment in which I am in condition 'white' then I may be on the 'stupid' team, but 'yellow', 'orange' or 'red' and I'm on the 'paranoid' team - a gun will be either available, in my hand, or going bang, respectively....

It seems

[Jason_W]

I live in a one bedroom apartment above someone else's garage.

That doesn't really say "Come rob me, I have expensive stuff"

I am not picking on you; this is for anyone who lives in rental housing: Consider that the previous occupant may have been an amateur pharmacist, or some other highly-targeted type of person, and he may may have enemies who don't know he has moved. Perhaps a stalking victim has recently moved. Or, a jealous husband/boyfriend thinks his romantic rival still lives there. I have taken several reports over the years from people who were victimized, with indications the intended target was the previous tenant.

I hadn't considered that. I've been here almost three years now, so I'm guessing that possibility has more or less passed. I will keep it in mind the next time I move, though.

[AJMD429]

I live in a one bedroom apartment above someone else's garage.
That doesn't really say "Come rob me, I have expensive stuff"

In general, I think the big mansion with a gate and lights and alarms says 'I have cool stuff' but will usually only be attempted by a professional or really aggressive bunch, but the place above someone's garage may attract amateurs (some say they're more dangerous because they panic more easily and don't know what they can & can't get away with, etc.) who aren't looking for 'expensive stuff' but just 'easy to get stuff.'

Still, many places I've lived over the years I had no choice, so you live where you live, but don't assume it is safer than it really is.