Now don't be alarmed!
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Now don't be alarmed!
Gentlemen, I have an interesting problem. To properly explain it, we need to go all the way back to a warm June day in 1888, at a spring a few miles northeast of Tularosa, New Mexico. A young cowboy from Texas, George McDonald, who was engaged to the niece of his dear friend Oliver Lee, had checked on his cattle and then went up to the spring to check on the water. There, he laid down with his head against a rock, and fell asleep while working on braiding a quirt. A mortal enemy associated with a big rancher who was trying to bully the small guys off the range happened upon poor George and shot him between the eyes where he lay. The body was discovered by another rancher looking for his stock, and when the corpse was removed for burial, the fatal bullet lay flattened against the rock -- and Oliver Lee took it and had it attached by a silver chain to his pocket watch, to always remember his friend and the way he was murdered.
This watch and the bullet are in the archives of New Mexico State Parks. I had access a few days ago, and weighed the bullet as best I could on my RCBS powder scale. It was almost exactly 200 grains, and I believe it was very likely fired from a Winchester Model 1873 in .44 WCF.
An archaeologist friend is urging me to do an informal paper on this sad artifact, and as part of the "research," I am thinking of trying to duplicate the shot with a '73, using blackpowder handloads and a bullet cast from the alloy Winchester used in those days. Here's where the "don't be alarmed" comes in.
The archaeologist suggests I attempt to simulate a human cranium to fire the bullet through. I am kind of at a loss as to how to proceed. Sheep or hog skulls from a slaughterhouse come to mind ...
This watch and the bullet are in the archives of New Mexico State Parks. I had access a few days ago, and weighed the bullet as best I could on my RCBS powder scale. It was almost exactly 200 grains, and I believe it was very likely fired from a Winchester Model 1873 in .44 WCF.
An archaeologist friend is urging me to do an informal paper on this sad artifact, and as part of the "research," I am thinking of trying to duplicate the shot with a '73, using blackpowder handloads and a bullet cast from the alloy Winchester used in those days. Here's where the "don't be alarmed" comes in.
The archaeologist suggests I attempt to simulate a human cranium to fire the bullet through. I am kind of at a loss as to how to proceed. Sheep or hog skulls from a slaughterhouse come to mind ...
- AJMD429
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Hog (and liberal) skulls might be significantly thicker, but if you could find a part with about 3/16ths inch bone in two places, about 8 inches apart, packed in between with bologna or ballistic gelatin (use dog poop if simulating a liberal), that would be reasonable I would think.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
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Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- marlinman93
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
See if you can get a sheep skull. Likely closer to human in density, and should give more accurate results.
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Dang Doc, I spilled my coffee on that one!
Old No7
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
This
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Just a thought. Death row possibilities???!!!
Michael
Michael
Michael Puzio
Winchester Model 1892 Collector, Research & Valuations
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
.
An empty skull, although available from any lefty lib, will likely not duplicate the desired effects when shot at.
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An empty skull, although available from any lefty lib, will likely not duplicate the desired effects when shot at.
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Done
Last edited by COSteve on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve
Retired and Living the Good Life
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are
Retired and Living the Good Life
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Well, this thread sure turned hilarious! Doc, you have a career in standup if you ever get tired of medicine.
Was actually thinking that a pair of fresh deer scapulas 8 inches apart and two pounds of hamburger in between might work.
Was actually thinking that a pair of fresh deer scapulas 8 inches apart and two pounds of hamburger in between might work.
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Wouldn't sheep droppings work as the filler? Or sheep droppings and marshmallow combined? Or would that have more intelligence than Bernie and/or AOC's followers?
How about using 8 or 10 inch diameter schedule 40 pvc about 8 inches long, capped on both ends after filled with PB&J.
How about using 8 or 10 inch diameter schedule 40 pvc about 8 inches long, capped on both ends after filled with PB&J.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Interesting story Bill, look forward to the follow up.
Because I Can, and Have
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God Bless America.
Disclaimer, not responsible for anyone copying or building anything i make.
Always consult an expert first.
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USAF-72-76
God Bless America.
Disclaimer, not responsible for anyone copying or building anything i make.
Always consult an expert first.
- Sixgun
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Well Bill...you either shoot a human head or you don't...if you do, you only have three choices...final..that's it, 3.....you either dig up a recently buried corpse, you "hire" a Mexican, or you rig up a system where you shoot yourself. It would take an individual with a lot of nerve to dig up some dude......"hiring" a Mexican will cost you probably 40-50 pesos, and with shooting yourself, you will be relieved of having to write up your term paper. If I were you, I'd do an "ennie-meeny-miney-moe.---your pal---6
(Or...you could just shoot a 99% lead bullet in the ground and tell the educated guy something else...he won't know...maybe just take any bullet and smack it with a 32 ounce ball peen hammer.)
(Or...you could just shoot a 99% lead bullet in the ground and tell the educated guy something else...he won't know...maybe just take any bullet and smack it with a 32 ounce ball peen hammer.)
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
I need to think this straight...COSteve wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:38 amWhile I enjoyed your humor, I must object to the suggested use of dog poop as dogs are smart, loyal, trusted, honorable, friends of man and therefore nothing like the stupid, backstabbing, lying Libs. I suggest that you find some Lemming poop instead because like lemmings, they will follow even the most stupid, dim Dem, right off of a cliff if asked.AJMD429 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:56 am Hog (and liberal) skulls might be significantly thicker, but if you could find a part with about 3/16ths inch bone in two places, about 8 inches apart, packed in between with bologna or ballistic gelatin (use dog poop if simulating a liberal), that would be reasonable I would think.
So... You would not debase the poop of a trusted friend by using it as a simulated liberal brain mass?
Kudos to you, Sir. You are a loyal human.
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History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
- AJMD429
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Sorry if I turned it too silly....Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:28 pm Well, this thread sure turned hilarious! Doc, you have a career in standup if you ever get tired of medicine.
Was actually thinking that a pair of fresh deer scapulas 8 inches apart and two pounds of hamburger in between might work.
Two scapulas would probably work reasonably well. The other 'ballistic' factor though is that the skull does form sort of a closed space so the resistance and shock waves and all that might differ versus a 'sandwich' type construction using scapulae. Probably sideways through a skull would work, and if you have the funds I'd probably use gelatin for the filler.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- GunnyMack
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
4" pic pipe about a foot long, fill it with plumbers putty or modeling clay. Both are fairly inexpensive.
Sure the post drifted some but it was entertaining!
Or like Doc said gelatin.
Sure the post drifted some but it was entertaining!
Or like Doc said gelatin.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
I remember reading a 1/4" of ply board is equivalent to human skull. Apparently the army considered a bullet that can penetrate 1/2" pine as potentially lethal but I dont know if this referred to the skull. Not sure if either measurement is fact though or urban myth. From google the thickness of human skull is about 1/4"
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
The closed PVC pipe is an interesting idea. I believe plumbers putty is far too dense a medium, and that gelatin is probably closer to the density of brain tissue. Doc probably has a good thought on this.
There is a second possibility here -- that the assassin used a Colt Frontier Six Shooter in .44 WCF instead of a Winchester 73. This would yield a different set of ballistics to test.
There is a second possibility here -- that the assassin used a Colt Frontier Six Shooter in .44 WCF instead of a Winchester 73. This would yield a different set of ballistics to test.
Re: Now don't be alarmed!
You guys are ALL totally missing the critical point here. " the fatal bullet lay flattened against the rock" It really does not matter what you shoot it through. The rock deformed the bullet and stopped it.
Michael
Michael
Michael Puzio
Winchester Model 1892 Collector, Research & Valuations
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
How about a skull sized melon? Right shape, firm outer layer and full of watery contents.
I'd like to see the results of this test. Also a pic of the watch and bullet.
Joe
I'd like to see the results of this test. Also a pic of the watch and bullet.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Michael, I would have expected deformation to begin immediately upon entry into the skull, then striking the interior rear of the cranium before being stopped by the rock. The history is unclear as to whether the bullet was actually collected from the rock surface or from the exit wound area. I have had a reply of great interest in the case from a staff member at the New Mexico State Police forensic lab in Santa Fe. I am hoping they will agree to examine the bullet's two faces -- if lucky, there will be traces of rifling and traces of either the rock surface and/or the distinctive patterns from inside a cranial cavity.
Joe, I have a lousy cell phone photo in poor light that doesn't show much. Hope to get much better images soon.
Joe, I have a lousy cell phone photo in poor light that doesn't show much. Hope to get much better images soon.
- marlinman93
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Not so. If you simply fired a bullet into a rock, it will deform much greater, and might even be destroyed. But firing through the cowboy's skull slowed it down, and began expansion, so that when it struck the rock it flattened further, but wasn't destroyed.
No critical points missed at all.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Now don't be alarmed!
Going by the written descriptions of this incident, it is possible the assassin crept close enough to the sleeping McDonald to kill him with a shot from a Colt revolver in .44 WCF. It dawned on me I have remains of a ruined "Colt Frontier Six Shooter" made in 1882 (Dad loaned it to a chum back in the 1960s and it was returned blown up with a smokeless load) so I slugged the bore with a .443 swaged round ball to have another land and groove pattern to present to the forensics lab staff.