Self defense: 12ga v. 20ga

[ursavus.elemensis]

I have a Mossberg 500, 20 gauge. I keep it loaded with 3 inch magnum shells, #2 buckshot. I read through the Box of Truth piece, and it looks like the 2 3/4 inch shells with #3 buck in the 20 gauge are fine for self defense. I think my set up is even better than that. The recoil is significantly less than with my Mossberg 500 12 gauge. I keep the 12 gauge loaded, too, but it will be the last thing I reach for in the event of a break-in. The 12 gauge is for Katrina-style breakdowns of civil order. Even in that kind of case, I will have the 20 gauge, and other firearms, and that 12 gauge is for a buddy who will come in for back up.

[Rexster]

Some who think the 20 inadequate at HOME DEFENSE distances should compare the velocities of the 12 and 20, and keep in mind that 12s do not need their whole payload to be lethal to a human adversary at home defense distances. The 20 is simply a slightly smaller payload when comparing same-length shells. Some "sabe hombres" noted long ago that a 3" mag 20 throws an equivalent load of lead as a standard 12 shell, while recoiling less, from a lighter, handier platform.

That leaves the issue of pellet size, and let's keep in mind that we are talking home defense distances here, not a goose flying at the far side of practical waterfowling range. As for penetration against vehicles, I have seen a car that had been shot at VERY close range with 12 gauge 00 buckshot, and NO pellets from a whole gunload that hit sheet metal made it inside the car, which was a good thing, as the shooter was a bad guy. I would not use buckshot against auto body metal, and expect good results. A storm of buckshot can certainly keep someone's head down if directed at a car's windows, and a recent shootout in the Midwest, IIRC, saw a police officer doing just that, keeping the bad guy from returning fire until other officers could close the range with their handguns. This incident, of course, is not your typical friendly neighborhood gunfight.

I use a 12 gauge for home defense, because my chief would consider a home defense shooting to be duty-related, and the admin part of a line-of-duty shooting is SO much smoother if I use a gun with which I have "qualed." Therefore, my personally-owned duty shotgun gets the nod. If I just happened to find myself using a 20, however, I would not sweat the difference from a ballisitic point of view. Some agencies that issue shotguns have issued 20s to female officers, but I have no data on any felons shot with those guns.

[Rod WMG]

I see this topic has been beat to death, but I have to quote Rusty in part: "In the house #4 bird or even #6 would be fine and not have too much penetration. From the distances you're talking about, inside most houses today whatever it hits is still only going to have a pattern of 3" or 4" anyway. "

I also like the bird shot (in either gauge). I usually refer to "fist sized patterns," but 3" or 4" will do for a description.

[Slick13]

The 12 is NOT "more powerful"

So, #3 pellets at 1175 fps is just as powerful (pick what ever word you want - most folks understand the word "powerful") as 00 buck pellets at 1325 fps.

No, but #3 out of a 12 ga is as "powerful" as #3 out of a 20 ga. at the same velocity. The difference is in the amount of #3 pellets each gauge permits you to put down range per shot.

If #3 Buck isn't big enough, Federal makes a 3" 20 gauge shell with #2 buck.

12 ga, 20 ga, 00 Buck, #2 or #3 Buck.... It's unlikely the firearm will ever have to be fired in anger. If the need does arise, at interior distances (10 yards), if the gun is choked cylinder bore, the target is going to be hit with 9 to 20 pellets within a 10" circle. If the gun is choked tighter, than the pellets are going to go into a smaller area. Either way, the person being shot isn't going to put up much fight after being hit.

~Michael

[Slick13]

Idiot *chuckle*, there are way too many people successfully waterfowling with 20s to give your opinion much weight.....in this case, not quite as good is more than enough....

Now Triple-T, your telling me people actually hunt geese with a 20 gauge on purpose? There are a lot of people who hunt deer with a 22 long rifle as well - you want to defend them too? Perhaps a 20 gauge is too big. I know a lot of people who will only hunt with a 410; is that suitable for home defense?

However, my waterfoul example was just an illustration of power and really had nothing to do with duck hunting. (sorry Jason, I really wasn't trying to turn this into a duck hunting discussion). If a person hunted stuff bigger than a dove, than they would immediately realize that the power of the 20 gauge is a whole lot less than the power of the 12 gauge. If one hasn't done so, then the water fowl example is worthless. Either way, IT WAS NOT ABOUT HUNTING DUCKS..

Where is Charles Askins when I need him.

Winchester, Remington, and Federal all make 20 ga. waterfowl loads. Now, you won't be able to sky bust birds at 50 yards with a 20 ga, but call them in within 25 to 30 yards, and you should be fine.

Your comments about the 20 ga, doves, and power show you don't know much about shotgunning, but that is understandable. Choke, shot charge, shot size, and velocity goes over a lot of rifle shooters heads. And they think nothing less than 1 1/4 oz of #4 or #6 at 1330 fps will be able to drop game beyond 20 yards.

I'll remember how undergunned I am this fall when I'm shooting reloads containing 7/8 oz of shot (standard 20 ga shot payload) out of my 12 ga, or I'm shooting 3/4 oz of shot out of my 28 ga, at pheasants.

~Michael

[scr83jp]

All of the perps or wannabe perps have at one time or another heard the distinctive sound of a shotgun being racked so it doesn't matter what guage it is if you know how to use one that's all that matters.I've had training with them richoshaying shot around corners;off of ceilings ; off of floors,dirt,grass,blacktop or concrete.A police officer in south central phoenix answered a call about a fight in a mexican bar,when he arrived the juke box was blaring and there was lots of yelling,a fight was in progress so he stepped in the doorway & racked his 12g riot gun:the music stopped along with the yelling it was really quiet when all of the patrons turned around & asked the police officer can we help you?

[dawei]

A lot has been said about this subject, using the 20ga for home defense & waterfowl hunting. Here is my take on it FWIW based upon my personal experience................

Home Defense: I'm 58 & my wife is 59, & neither of us can handle the recoil of a 12ga. My wife hunts & target shoots with a 20ga exclusively. In my case I have a bum shoulder that's about to be replaced. The 12ga is just too brutal for me. Now our home defense guns are 20ga's loaded with 2¾" #3 Buck & Brenneke® slugs weighing 440grs (1oz). If I can routinely kill deer at 50-100yds with those slugs I have zero qualms about using them for home defence.

Waterfowl hunting: I use a 20ga Mossberg® pump for all my duck & goose hunting. I routinely kill ducks & geese at up to 50yds, WITH ONE SHOT; & they hit the water DEAD. The reason is I don't shoot steel, I shoot Hevi•Shot™.

Don't sell the 20ga short, use it with confidence for it is all you need.

[stretch]

scr83jp - you've got the scenario right. Rack a pump once -
just once - and you've PROBABLY stopped the show. Aim
and press the trigger once, and you've CERTAINLY stopped it! The difference between getting hit with a load of buckshot from a 12 or a
20 at conversational distances makes for an entertaining discussion, but the results are the same.

A neighbor of mine once had a burglar break in after his Dad's
tools. I think Rick was 16 or so. He racked Daddy's pump ONCE -
and heard the bad guy GO! They never even saw each other....

[Idiot]

scr83jp - you've got the scenario right. Rack a pump once -
just once - and you've PROBABLY stopped the show. Aim
and press the trigger once, and you've CERTAINLY stopped it!

However, sometimes they show up ready to fight. And sometimes they fight from behind things. And sometimes just a bit more power could be useful. And sometimes that little extra power determines whether the bad guy gets hit or not; and whether he has enough snot left to hit you.

A 20 gauge will certainly do the job. A properly loaded 12 gauge can, if necessary, do the job in a wider variety of conditions.

Sometimes the thug(s) don't show up to steal; they show up to kill.

[jeepnik]

A 20ga slug or buckshot round "will" kill a deer. Been there and done that in Florida. Gotta figure it will ruin and humans day. And who says you only have to shoot them once. Long time ago, I was taught to shoot and not stop until either the target was down, or the weapon empty. And in the case that the former had not occured before the latter, to reload and continue firing. Seemed to work pretty well for the fellows that taught me.

[Texican]

While a 12 gauge is likely better for a variety of reasons (availibility of buckshot for one) if you already have a pump action 20 gauge, is it really enough of a home defense handicap to justify buying a 12er?

Nope.

Can we argue if water is wet now?

[jeepnik]

While a 12 gauge is likely better for a variety of reasons (availibility of buckshot for one) if you already have a pump action 20 gauge, is it really enough of a home defense handicap to justify buying a 12er?

Nope.

Can we argue if water is wet now?

Actually, in some physical states, water isn't wet.

[Hobie]

Let this dead horse be and let Jason use his 20 ga.