disaster! a girl, a grizzly and a 30/30

[Merle]

In WWII, Audie Murphy went after, and killed, a German sniper with a .30 Carbine. It isn't necessarily the gun. If the person shooting it is accurate, then there is much less need for excessive power. This young girl proved it once again.

Agreed, but there still has to be a minimum power level for a humane kill.

If true, who and what determines humane? Gun rags, for years tout the 30-06 as too light for brown bear, but the 300WM. just fine . I don't see anything hit with either truly knowing the difference. The huntress proved, that, in her hands, the 30-30 is humane.

Humane is when the animal doesn't get away to suffer while it is hunted down. I would expect any hunter to have a good idea on what is humane. It's true that the 30-30 worked this time, but can it be expected to work nearly every time.

[tman]

In WWII, Audie Murphy went after, and killed, a German sniper with a .30 Carbine. It isn't necessarily the gun. If the person shooting it is accurate, then there is much less need for excessive power. This young girl proved it once again.

Agreed, but there still has to be a minimum power level for a humane kill.

If true, who and what determines humane? Gun rags, for years tout the 30-06 as too light for brown bear, but the 300WM. just fine . I don't see anything hit with either truly knowing the difference. The huntress proved, that, in her hands, the 30-30 is humane.

Humane is when the animal doesn't get away to suffer while it is hunted down. I would expect any hunter to have a good idea on what is humane. It's true that the 30-30 worked this time, but can it be expected to work nearly every time.

Once again, Who and what and how determines it. Nothing will work and provide a humane kill guaranteed each and every time. Placement trumps that. That said, I'm not going bear hunting with a .22Lr. ,but would not pass up the chance with a 30-30.

[Merle]

In WWII, Audie Murphy went after, and killed, a German sniper with a .30 Carbine. It isn't necessarily the gun. If the person shooting it is accurate, then there is much less need for excessive power. This young girl proved it once again.

Agreed, but there still has to be a minimum power level for a humane kill.

If true, who and what determines humane? Gun rags, for years tout the 30-06 as too light for brown bear, but the 300WM. just fine . I don't see anything hit with either truly knowing the difference. The huntress proved, that, in her hands, the 30-30 is humane.

Humane is when the animal doesn't get away to suffer while it is hunted down. I would expect any hunter to have a good idea on what is humane. It's true that the 30-30 worked this time, but can it be expected to work nearly every time.

Once again, Who and what and how determines it. Nothing will work and provide a humane kill guaranteed each and every time. Placement trumps that. That said, I'm not going bear hunting with a .22Lr. ,but would not pass up the chance with a 30-30.[/quote]



Why are you so determined to argue? If you are a hunter, then you should have a good idea of what is humane, based on YOUR equipment and YOUR level of skill as well as the individual situation YOU are facing. Also, see the part I highlighted above.

[hfcable]

they can be killed with most anything, sometimes if not always. i have met [he was a back pain patient i treated ] the fellow who used the knife to kill one......he was dressing a deer when it attacked. he survived, but was badly hurt and in hospital a while. also, there was a very well known native hunter on the alaskan peninsula who used a 22 hornet for everything, including numerous brown bears. he would hunker down out of sight a 100 yds away, pop up, shoot, hunker,etc. using a number of well placed shots to kill the bear. it worked pretty well for quite a few bears, but not all of them. when he didnt return they found him where the bear had spotted him and gotten him. this is not a made up tale, i have read the original accounts of him including his final, fatal episode. many natives in the past used the same round on polar bears. there is one native fellow now who uses a mini 14 223 for most everything including brown bears.......he is a superb hunter, a true killing machine....

a man i met years ago at the palmer gun show, had lived a lot of his life trapping well north of fairbanks. i was admiring a 25/20 he had and we were discussing what it could do if you had to and were up to it. he had killed 17 moose with it, and 2 grizzlies. the grizzlies just gave him no choice......one of them was blocking him from getting into his cabin. one shot kills by a VERY capable man.

me, i carry a heavy loaded 'brownchester' custom 45/70 [ tough 400 grain bullet at over 2000 fps ] --- that rifle just suits me and i shoot it well. too much power is rarely a problem.

[Shrapnel]

People don't realize how much gun you don't need. This was a 7 foot Griz in Montana with a 25-35. Once between they eyes is just right...

Yeah, plenty enough for between the eyes, but what if you don't have that luxury?

But, but, what if, what if...

You could get hit by a meteor but I would guess you don't wear a hard hat just in case...

[Merle]

People don't realize how much gun you don't need. This was a 7 foot Griz in Montana with a 25-35. Once between they eyes is just right...

Yeah, plenty enough for between the eyes, but what if you don't have that luxury?

But, but, what if, what if...

You could get hit by a meteor but I would guess you don't wear a hard hat just in case...

I'm pretty sure a hard hat wouldn't help if a meteorite did hit you!
But I'm equally sure a small gun won't help much if you pee off a grizzly!
Common sense goes a long ways, but you seem short on it.

[Blaine]

When someone quips that a 30 wcf is not adequate for bear, they might be unwittingly commenting on their own abilities.

[Merle]

When someone quips that a 30 wcf is not adequate for bear, they might be unwittingly commenting on their own abilities.

Quite possibly.

A 30-30 will work under ideal circumstances, kind of like a smaller handgun will take deer - works OK as long as you can wait & pick your shot.

[tman]

When someone quips that a 30 wcf is not adequate for bear, they might be unwittingly commenting on their own abilities.

Quite possibly.

A 30-30 will work under ideal circumstances, kind of like a smaller handgun will take deer - works OK as long as you can wait & pick your shot.

Ain't that what's "hunting", especially with a medium range lever gun is all about?

[Shrapnel]

I'm pretty sure a hard hat wouldn't help if a meteorite did hit you!
But I'm equally sure a small gun won't help much if you pee off a grizzly!
Common sense goes a long ways, but you seem short on it.

_________________
Merle from PA


I love opinions from experienced people like you. I am sure I have killed more game with a pickup...

[Merle]

I'm pretty sure a hard hat wouldn't help if a meteorite did hit you!
But I'm equally sure a small gun won't help much if you pee off a grizzly!
Common sense goes a long ways, but you seem short on it.

_________________
Merle from PA


I love opinions from experienced people like you. I am sure I have killed more game with a pickup...

yep, and also killed your common sense and turned you into someone who likes to twist words and argue.

[w30wcf]

I think I figured out where all the 30/30 can't kill grizzlies came from. Years ago Clint Walker did a movie, B movie at best, called Night of the Grizzly. In it he repeatedly shoots said grizzly with a levergun until the magazine is empty, then in typical Clint Walker fashion goes mano-a-mano with the bear.

The bear eventually dies, but not after tearing up Clint pretty bad. But Clint's son is saved.

Yes, but if you actually paid attention when watching the movie..... He states he will be hunting with a 44-40...... NOT A 30-30. His gun is a Winchester 92 NOT a 94. Frankly, I'd much rather have a 30-30 than a 44-40. But for a 12 foot bear, I think I would break out the 86 Winchester in 50-110.

Old 44-40 RIFLE loads where actually close to original .30WCF, perhaps a bit better.

Actually.....no. The 44-40 WHV was the most powerful 200 gr. Ctg. And achieved 1580 fps. The Rem-Umc Hi Speed. 160 hollow point at 1980 fps does not have the sectional density of the 160 30-30 and would have penetrated a lot less.

w30wcf

[tman]

I think I figured out where all the 30/30 can't kill grizzlies came from. Years ago Clint Walker did a movie, B movie at best, called Night of the Grizzly. In it he repeatedly shoots said grizzly with a levergun until the magazine is empty, then in typical Clint Walker fashion goes mano-a-mano with the bear.

The bear eventually dies, but not after tearing up Clint pretty bad. But Clint's son is saved.

Yes, but if you actually paid attention when watching the movie..... He states he will be hunting with a 44-40...... NOT A 30-30. His gun is a Winchester 92 NOT a 94. Frankly, I'd much rather have a 30-30 than a 44-40. But for a 12 foot bear, I think I would break out the 86 Winchester in 50-110.

Old 44-40 RIFLE loads where actually close to original .30WCF, perhaps a bit better.

Actually.....no. The 44-40 WHV was the most powerful 200 gr. Ctg. And achieved 1580 fps. The Rem-Umc Hi Speed. 160 hollow point at 1980 fps does not have the sectional density of the 160 30-30 and would have penetrated a lot less.

w30wcf

Thanks for the info. So the old time rifle only loads for the .44-40 are closer to a .44 Mag out of a handgun, which has taken all the worlds game.

[w30wcf]

tman,
You are most welcome. Good point about the .44 Mag. A .44-40 loaded with the heavier 240 gr. bullet of proper construction would be a different animal indeed loaded in a '92 Win or '94 Marlin as compared to the normal cartridge..

Here's a couple of stories about the use of a handy '94 carbine. Likely a 44 Mag or properly loaded .44-40 would have produced the same results......

Back in May of 1965, Jack Turner found out that it was just the gun for him to dispatch a charging grizzly that turned out to be the largest one on record. In his story, "Killer Grizzly at Six feet", he recounts that he had moved his family up on the Atnarko River above Lonesome Lake in British Columbia. There were bear in the area and not one to take any chances, he always carried his faithful '94 .30-30 with him when away from the homestead.

He said "You never know when a grizzly will decide to pick a fight, so I rarely venture beyond the cleared fields around our house without hanging the old .30-30 over my shoulder. That precaution has saved my skin, or my family's at least twice."
On that particular day he left his house on a 2 mile walk to repair a fence. It was a fine spring morning. He recalls, "I came to a place where the trail, winding through cedars and cottonwoods, opens into a sunny glade no bigger than a house. I rounded a bend, and there in the center of the glade stood the biggest grizzly I had ever laid eyes on (and I have seen more than 200, in just about every part of British Columbia, in the last 20 years.) He was staring straight at me, and he was just 40 feet away."

"Our eyes met and locked and he was on his way. I saw him in one instant and he was coming for me in a savage rush, running like a dog after his prey. He was drooling as he came, and a low growl was rumbling in his throat. I whipped the Winchester off my back and, since I carry the rifle loaded in the magazine but none in the chamber, I had to lever in a shell. The bear was almost on me when I slammed my shot into him, and I recall thinking, in that brief flash of time, that I'd only have time for one."

“I was using 170 gr. Soft point factory loads. I hit him dead center between the eyes and that soft point bullet blew his whole brain out through a hole in the back of his skull. He was still running full tilt when I shot, but his head went down between his forelegs, and he fell almost straight down. I backed off a few steps, held the rifle on him, and waited until I was sure there wasn’t a spark of life left in him. He was a buster, by far the biggest grizzly we had ever seen.”

Jack goes on to say that if the skull would have been intact, it would have scored 27 in the Boone and Crockett Clubs book according to them. The largest score on record at the time was 26.

Posted on the old Marlin Talk Forum....
My brother got a newfound respect for it while investigating a self-defense kill on a grizzly on an A-F base in the early'80s. Fella had killed a Moose and had gone back next day to finish packing out carcass. A 700-800lb Griz had found it and took offense at being disturbed.

Two quick shots from a .30/30 ended the argument with one shot (second fired) hitting griz in nose and exiting back of skull. First shot fired at charging bear had struck neck left of cheek and penetrated length wise (!!) lodging in paunch of Griz! and would have been a fatal shot, but would have taken a few too many moments to take effect. Ammo was Federal premium 170gr partitions.

Hunter related he could never have made either shot with the .338 Win Mag. he had used the day previous to kill moose as gun didn't "handle quick enough!". He also talked to some of the local's (native indians) who used an old rusty '94 and whatever ammo was around for killing whales and seals during those seasons.

w30wcf

[tman]

Great Read! Thanks!

[jeepnik]

The answer to whether the 30-30 is adequate for bear isn't up for debate. This young lady proved it is. Amazing how a wonderful story about a good kid doing well get turned into a name calling debate. I'm pretty sure the young lady has better manners.

[olskool]

a 30-30 with a 170gr. bullet at 100yds has more energy/power than a 44mag. has at the muzzle with a 240gr. bullet,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[BigSky56]

When you face a animal that can stomp you or eat you a RPG seems inadequate, but get ahold of your fear and you can be like Bell who killed the big five with a 6.5x54 and cape buffalo with a savage 22 HP. It's the Indian not the arrow, use a rifle that won't cause you to flinch and practice then practice some more. Bell practiced sometimes daily wing shooting birds with his rifle.
When I go predator hunting I have a chance of calling in brn&black bears, cougar, wolves, coyote and if I am using a distressed calf call a angry cow moose, my rifle is a 223. My Dad for years killed deer and elk with a savage 22 HP till ammo got scarce then he used a 250 savage just like alot of ranchers carried on their saddle horses for elk and moose. danny