.38 WCF questions

Mike Armstrong · Post by **Mike Armstrong** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:40 pm

I also really like the .38-40. Have had a few including a Colt Bisley but now have only three: two Win 1885s, one Lo-wall and one Hi-wall, and a Colt New Service with 7 1/2" barrel. Never hunted with this ctg. much but did kill one nice little whitetail forkhorn meat buck in upstate NYS a few years ago with the Lo-wall, a compressed black powder load and cast 170 gr. bullet.

Around 60 yards and a one-shot kill--here I did a chain lightning reload and the dang thing was already dead when I lined up for a second shot! All that perfectly good adrenaline gone to waste!

My New Service was made in the early 1920s and is as accurate as any service-sighted handgun--seated and with a two-hand rested hold I can shoot clover leafs all day long with factory jacketed bullet loads, Black Hills or Winchester. Chamber throats are all right at .400.

Noisy handgun cartridge if you don't wear ear protection--I've had this Colt so long that ear plugs or muffs just weren't worn when I got it! (WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY, SONNY????).

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:04 pm

Thanks Mike for the real life hunting report with this round. My old antique Winchester mold is casting a very consistent 185 grain soft cast bullet. If I get good range result with this load of a Federal mag. primer, 38 grains of 3FG black and this old time cast Winchester bullet, into the deer woods with it I'll go.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:00 pm

SUCCESS

A full length resize did the trick on that handful of brass that wouldn't chamber.

Left: fire formed brass that wouldn't chamber.
Right: A brass fresh out of the full length resizer. (Now chambers perfect)

My first ever hand cast / hand loaded box of BP 38wcf ammo.
Minus the 3 brass I screwed up trying to figure out my little problem of
why a handful of brass brass cases wouldn't chamber and the other half would.
Still a total mystery to me.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:36 pm

Nice looking rounds but the bullet seems to be seated very deep. Any reason for that?

I wonder if your cartridge swelled when you seated the bullet. I can't say I've read this thread in great detail but perhaps you are compressing the powder with the bullet? If so, that will do it and a good compression die will solve that problem every time. How much compression are you using?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:27 am

BrentD wrote:Nice looking rounds but the bullet seems to be seated very deep. Any reason for that?

I wonder if your cartridge swelled when you seated the bullet. I can't say I've read this thread in great detail but perhaps you are compressing the powder with the bullet? If so, that will do it and a good compression die will solve that problem every time. How much compression are you using?

Read the thread in detail Brent (if interested).
It explains everything in good detail of my experience with this project start to finish.
All on topic for once, no pictures of bears with hairy backs & chests here.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:28 am

Whatever. I was trying to be helpful and didn't have time to read it all. If you have to FL loaded rounds, something is wrong.

Carry on.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:06 am

BrentD wrote:Whatever. I was trying to be helpful and didn't have time to read it all. If you have to FL loaded rounds, something is wrong.

Carry on.

I do understand you are trying to be helpful Brent. Thanks

I'm just saying if you go back and do a quick read, all this should be
clear as mud.

O and no I'm not at all having to FL resize loaded rounds.

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:12 am

Those rounds look fine to me and I've been loading 38WCF for over forty years. I like the fact that the Lee full length size die seems to give a little more neck than my old Lyman dies that would add bullet tension I believe for shooters like Six and myself who go the Herco/Unique route.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:30 am

Hey casastahle, they look great!I'll bet they feed slick as butter in the old 73 win. Thats the great thing about using the Winchester tong tool you get the OAL perfect every time . The circles printed into the nose of your soft lead bullets ,show they are seated in the win. tong tool. Time for a range trip!That 38 gr. of 3fff will be a powerful load .Have fun,,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:37 am

Dusty Texian wrote:Hey casastahle, they look great!I'll bet they feed slick as butter in the old 73 win. Thats the great thing about using the Winchester tong tool you get the OAL perfect every time . The circles printed into the nose of your soft lead bullets ,show they are seated in the win. tong tool. Time for a range trip!That 38 gr. of 3fff will be a powerful load .Have fun,,,,,DT

Yes, next week I should get a chance to hit the range and make plenty of 'BOOM & SMOKE'

Hopefully come December I'm blessed with a willing whitetail.

Thanks Dusty for your behind the seen help, support and being a good
overall sounding board through this venture.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:27 pm

Well done! As to why some of the cases that were previously fired in the same chamber - I can't recall if you had it relined but if so and they were fired in the original chamber that is likely the reason. If that is not the case, perhaps there is something in the chamber that was not there when the as fired cases that now won't chamber were originally fired.

When I fired .44-40 cartridges with Goex and the original 2 grooved cast bullet, accuracy started to deteriorate after about a dozen rounds as a hard ring of fouling started building at the muzzle and extending into the barrel (24"). Hopefully you will have better results but just wanted to let you know that can happen with Goex.

Switching to Swiss resolved that and I was able to fire 50+ rounds with no decrease in accuracy. Also "Olde Enysford" a powder recently introduced by Goex also gave good results similar to Swiss.

Looking forward to your range report!

w30wcf

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:44 pm

Thanks John,

I feel like a total IDIOT

You hit the nail square on the head.
About half that box of 50 rounds was indeed fired before the barrel reline.
Well I now have a Lee hand loader and dies for 38-40 that I'll never use again.
I can't believe I didn't think about that.

Actually yes I can.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:04 pm

Sure glad Y'all figgured that one out,I have been scratching my head a few days on that one. The 3fff Goex gave me the same results as w30wcf hard fouling after just a few shots. Not a problem for plinking at the bench or hunting. Like John Swiss made that problem go away for me. I am going to order some of the Old E. trusted people like John , say it is a very good powder ,and I would rather spend my American made dollars on an American made product. ,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:19 pm

I intend to do the same eventually.
I just have way to many cans of 2F & 3F Goex laying around that I want to use up first.

After further thought, I'm actually glad I have that Lee hand press and sizing die.
It will come in handy for making used 38-40 brass procured from other venues
usable for the first time in my rifle.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:03 am

Dusty Texian wrote:Hey casastahle, they look great!I'll bet they feed slick as butter in the old 73 win. Thats the great thing about using the Winchester tong tool you get the OAL perfect every time . The circles printed into the nose of your soft lead bullets ,show they are seated in the win. tong tool. Time for a range trip!That 38 gr. of 3fff will be a powerful load .Have fun,,,,,DT

+1!!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:21 pm

Now y'all really didn't think I was done with this thread yet did ya

During my reloading, I fast realized a loading block would be a very useful item.
Found this old antique just laying around in the 1893 corner hardware store in my mind.

I made this one this evening from an old piece of oak from a skid.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:39 pm

casastahle wrote:Now y'all really didn't think I was done with this thread yet did ya

During my reloading, I fast realized a loading block would be a very useful item.
Found this old antique just laying around in the 1893 corner hardware store in my mind.

I made this one this evening from an old piece of oak from a skid.

I have several of those for reloading rifle cartridges. I have plastic ones from RCBS and MTM, but nothing is finer than a good, stable wood loading block! My wood ones hold about 50 rounds of 45-70 or my 40-90SBN... about the max I like dealing with when using a single stage press.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:42 am

"but nothing is finer than a good, stable wood loading block!"

You got that right Griff

Plastic gets brittle and cracks.
I have a few of those plastic ammo. boxes doing just that.
The lids are only good for so many open & closes

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:15 pm

I made one out of birds-eye maple in shop class back in '78. Tho I made mine with a 6 x 8 holes arrangement.
Don't know what I was thinking that day.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:22 pm

Awww yes!
What greeted me at the mail box today.
50 unfired Shiny new brass Winchester brand 38-40's

These will be carefully loaded and made my dedicated hunting loads.
Started the first step, flaring the neck.
Also in the picture is my first attempt at a homemade ammo. box.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:35 pm

I can't get worked up over 50 rounds of brass... Wouldn't even get me thru one cowboy action match...

But... in truth, I can remember when I was! Long before CAS.

It probably pales in comparison to Sixgun's stash...

There's .30-30, .45Colt, .45ACP & .38Spl in those plastic tubs. Several K... hundreds of new brass. I'm always pickin' up new stuff along with batches of used brass.

I think I have some range brass I've picked up along the way in .38-40, yours for the askin'.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:47 pm

I fully understand where you're coming from Griff.

From the very start I never intended to go anywhere close to big
time loading like some of ya'll do.

My goal from the beginning was to load with Black Powder only.
Use only an antique mold and loading tool.

I wanted to replicate as close as possible cast and loaded rounds the way the
old time farmers, cowboys and hunters would have done it back in the day.

Outside of using an electric lead melting pot and having to purchase that Lee
resizing die, I think I've achieved my goal.

Thanks so much for the range brass offer Griff,

I'm good for now, but I'll indeed keep that in mind for when the time comes to
replace some brass.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:19 pm

Range day.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:27 pm

Factory made ammo. from the bench at 50 yrds.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:36 pm

7 shot group with my hand loaded ammo.
From the bench at 50 yrds.
No that's not a key hole, 3 shot hole.
I forgot to write down the FPS.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:40 pm

I wouldn't be buyin' anymore of that "factory" stuff. Your handloads have some potential. Do you know what order the shots were? I.e., which 3 shots made that group?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:43 pm

50 yards off the bench, my hand loads.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:46 pm

Did you have a lube "star" on the muzzle?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:52 pm

Feel free to be honest with your thoughts guys.
In all honesty I'm not overly happy with my results today.
I really long for the days before I needed these progressive lenses.
My eyesight is definitely not the best for open sights anymore

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:54 pm

Griff wrote:I wouldn't be buyin' anymore of that "factory" stuff. Your handloads have some potential. Do you know what order the shots were? I.e., which 3 shots made that group?

Those 3 shots didn't happen 3 shots in a row Griff.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:59 pm

Griff wrote:Did you have a lube "star" on the muzzle?

Yes a faint one mixed in with very heavy Goex soot.
Goex is a very dirty powder.
I had to swab the bore every third to fourth shot.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:17 pm

Get a tang sight for your older eyes. Worked like a charm for me. Second, try 1/2 sheet of single ply toilet paper over your powder loosely rolled and folded to act as a flexible gas check. Reduce your powder by one or two grains to keep the velocity the same. That should improve the accuracy.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:56 pm

I'd of put a tang sight on this old timer long ago Kirk.
But unfortunately, 100 + years ago a horse rolled on this rife breaking the top tang.
This may have coincided the same time the reciever and forearm took a bullet strike.
A long ago repair was made making installing a tang sight impossible.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:11 pm

I'll be okay, just a little disappointed in the results is all.
I'm going to back off of this project for a little while now.
Next week my glass topped black beauty comes out of hibernation,
gets strung and starts flinging bolts.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:00 pm

casastahle wrote:Feel free to be honest with your thoughts guys.
In all honesty I'm not overly happy with my results today.
I really long for the days before I needed these progressive lenses.
My eyesight is definitely not the best for open sights anymore

What does "soft cast" mean to you?

Frankly, I don't much care for most/all of the Goex powder available these days. I think it could be a significant part of your problem. However, if it can be make to shoot, chances are it needs a heavy boot to compress it, at least that is the norm with Goex. Swiss powder is another beast and much preferred over Goex. Not your bullet but dedicated compression die. If you are a BPCR shooter, this is very old news, but if you are not, maybe this is an issue you over looked.

What did you do between shots? Blow tube? Wipe? Anything? I ask because singleshot shooters always do one of the first two options between every shoot. For a multishooter like the 94, that would seem strange, but it would give you a basic idea of the accuracy potential of the rifle.

If your tang is messed up by a horse, then drilling it out for a different tang sight wouldn't upset the original condition issue. I would find a way to get a tang sight on there. I would put a Lyman 17a up front with an aperture for shooting at round bulls. Once you have parsed out the accuracy issues you can always put back the front sight but an aperture front might really help with tired eyes.

I will be going down this same road soon. I too have a .38-40 Marlin that will shoot black. So, I am very interested in your results

Brent
PS. Did you mention a wad? I don't recall. Do you have a thick one suitable for the .401 bore?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 pm

I have two Wnch 94's with brazed tangs... one I've left alone because the stock is ruined from thousands of hours in contact with sweaty horses. It came from a cowboy friend in his 70's when I first got out of the service... it was originally purchased by his father... I was shoein' horses on this ranch in the mid '70s and this ol' timer told me many stories about this rifle... I have the original receipt from up in Montana and his note gifting the rifle to me... It ain't goin' anywhere but to my son... as was his wish in his note.

The other'n, was a more modern rifle... from in the '20s and when I bought it, it was junk. Stock was dried up, shrunk, and all cracked... the tang was broken, welded up with brazing rod and wrapped in rawhide. When I cut the rawhide off, I found the welding job had cracked again... so this one I had professionally welded and refinished with new stock and all. You can't tell where the original break is unless you pull the stock and look at the underside of the tang. After it was welded, the guy that did the repairs redrilled and tapped the hole for a tang sight... he put a filler screw in there, and aid anytime I wanted to mount a period tang sight, I could.

Now, if you want to keep the gun original, as I did with the first one, ok, but... if you ever think of getting it refinished and lookin' like it'd just been purchased... you might think of this. A good welder could make that right as rain. As Brent sez, a tang sight will work wonder on old, tired eyes... I know.

There are times and places for bullets cast as hard as straight wheelweights with BP. I'd say that's only when you know they're AT LEAST .002" larger than the groove diameter. AND, they'll chamber. Other'n that, stick with Lyman #2 grade lead or softer.

I definitely recommend a wad under the bullet, either a Plastic one, or a waxed card one. I'm used to the waxed card... it helps keep lube from migrating to the powder, and believe it or not... they only get smoked, slightly soot stained... I've never found one charred. Even when sitting on 85 grains of 2F under a 400gr bullet. Which I why I recently bought a couple thousand of the LDP (I think that's the right designation) plastic wads for my .40-90SBN.

I've still got 23 cans of Goex "Cartridge", so my Swiss experiments in pistol calibers are kinda on hold pending the consumption of "Cartridge" stuff.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:12 am

Thanks for the responses Brent & Griff.
I know for fact the problem isn't the gun or loads.
What I didn't mention out of my frustration.
At the end of my disappointing shooting session I walked out to about
25 yrds. of the target and all but clover leafed a centered off hand 3 shot group.
It's my eyes. I've all but retired my PA. long rifle because of the same problem.
I used to be able to shoot that one like nobody's business.
Yes indeed a tang sight will help this problem.
Over the winter I'll see what I can come up with for this old 73.

It ain't over till it's over

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:19 am

Very nice rifle ! How did you like your cronograph?We all have Good Days and Bad Days ,give it a try again . Looks like you have a good start,with that load. In the past I have had more trouble getting 3fff Goex to shoot good groups . And it does foul very fast in my experience. I am not saying 3fff Goex does not work for others. But I have founf 2ff Swiss burns very clean and accurate! Did the Buffalo Arms ammo burn clean? They use Swiss powder in some of thier ammo! I will try some of the Goex Old Eynsford next.That is the fun part of Black Powder handloading .The road to perfection is very long, but rewarding! ,,,DT

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:26 am

Your eyes may be an issue but I don't believe that powder is likely to give you the best chance of success.

That said, what about a Merit Eye Disk on your glasses? I have not used one of these, but in good light it should sharpen up your sight picture.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimension ... onid=20822

Meanwhile, get a can of 1.5 or 2f swiss and be sure to use a good stiff card wad.

Griff, soft lead for most of use bpcr types is about 30:1 lead:tin. I think that would be a good choice here, but anything between 25:1 on the hard side to 40:1 on the soft side should work well. I use 40:1 in my .38-40. With super long nosed bullets I go to 16:1 but that would never be necessary or even a good thing with a pistol cartridge load.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:24 am

Dusty Texian wrote:Very nice rifle ! How did you like your cronograph?We all have Good Days and Bad Days ,give it a try again . Looks like you have a good start,with that load. In the past I have had more trouble getting 3fff Goex to shoot good groups . And it does foul very fast in my experience. I am not saying 3fff Goex does not work for others. But I have founf 2ff Swiss burns very clean and accurate! Did the Buffalo Arms ammo burn clean? They use Swiss powder in some of thier ammo! I will try some of the Goex Old Eynsford next.That is the fun part of Black Powder handloading .The road to perfection is very long, but rewarding! ,,,DT

Yes the Buffalo arms ammo indeed Burns very clean.
The Croney F1 worked great. I'm glad I got it.
I'm going to play around with it while shooting the X bow next week.
It was interesting how much the factory ammo varied in fps I wasn't expecting that.
The one thing that really impressed me was the impact sound of my soft lead
cast bullets on the earthen backstop. Those average 183 grain bullets had a significantly
louder harder hitting thump than the factory hard cast 175's.

It could be my overall expectations for results were set to high.
I really did accomplish what I set out to do.
With my antique hand tools I reproduced ammo very close to the 38wcf ammo
produced and used by the old timers back in the day.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:51 am

Has our expectations of accuracy changed over the years?
I for one vividly remember Sunday afternoon before the Monday opener
of deer season at camp how sighting in was done.
A white paper plate was tacked to a tree, a number of paces walked off, 3 shots fired
offhand. If your 3 shots hit somewhere on the plate, you were set to deer hunt.

Realistically, anyone of those shots I made from the sitting position at 50 yards would have
put a bullet in the kill zone of a broadside deer. As I've said before, the woods I hunt in, 50
yards is about as far as I'm going to see a deer to shoot at anyway.

That said, I'm not going to risk a bad shot.
I know I can do better with this rifle.
I really believe a tang sight is the answer as it was for my old
Winchester model 94 25-35 and the Marlin 1893 30-30.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:51 pm

Even if the front hole on the tang is damaged, the rear one might hold it solid. I say this because I purchased a Montana Vintage Arms combination tang sight for my Browning 1886 SRC 45-70 and it only has the rear hole where the stock screw goes through. I mounted it and have put about 50 rounds through it and the tang sight is still rock solid. I do plan to drill and tap a front hole, however.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:27 pm

KirkD wrote:Even if the front hole on the tang is damaged, the rear one might hold it solid. I say this because I purchased a Montana Vintage Arms combination tang sight for my Browning 1886 SRC 45-70 and it only has the rear hole where the stock screw goes through. I mounted it and have put about 50 rounds through it and the tang sight is still rock solid. I do plan to drill and tap a front hole, however.

Here's what I'm dealing with.
If any of y'all can figure out how I can get a tang sight to work on this repair fire away with the ideas.
I really think a tang sight will eliminate the biggest problem, the eyesight problem.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:33 pm

A good smith would drill out those rivets, weld the break and clean up the holes until you couldn't tell it was ever messed up and you could mount a tang sight with the proper screws and hole spacing. A really good smith would then add a surface finish to closely match the patina of the rest of the action.

There is no way that I would not repair that repair.

Brent

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:09 pm

Hey casastahle ,has the tang already been welded? It looks like it has,and a doubler has been riveted over the tang. Is that right?,,,DT PS very good looking 73 Winchester.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:20 pm

BrentD wrote:A good smith would drill out those rivets, weld the break and clean up the holes until you couldn't tell it was ever messed up and you could mount a tang sight with the proper screws and hole spacing. A really good smith would then add a surface finish to closely match the patina of the rest of the action.

There is no way that I would not repair that repair.

Brent

Give me a name Brent.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:22 pm

Dusty Texian wrote:Hey casastahle ,has the tang already been welded? It looks like it has,and a doubler has been riveted over the tang. Is that right?,,,DT PS very good looking 73 Winchester.

Yes it has Dusty, I just don't know how good a weld it is.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:05 pm

casastahle ,if the rifle were mine I would remove the extra back-strap and have a look at the repaired tang.If it looked solid ,by adding a tang sight in place of the back strap it should be strong enough ,until your horse rolls onto it again.You may be able to salvage the 1873 Winchester markings on the tang,if that is of interest to you. And if you decide against the tang sight, you could put it right back like it is. ,,,DT

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:29 pm

casastahle wrote:
BrentD wrote:A good smith would drill out those rivets, weld the break and clean up the holes until you couldn't tell it was ever messed up and you could mount a tang sight with the proper screws and hole spacing. A really good smith would then add a surface finish to closely match the patina of the rest of the action.

There is no way that I would not repair that repair.

Brent
Give me a name Brent.

that is the $64 question for sure. Many could do it but how many will do it? The guy that does most of my metal work is a friend that is not a professional gunsmith and I can't really recommend him for that reason. I don't know that he takes on work other than for friends and shooting partners.

One person that absolutely can do it to the highest pinnacle of perfection is Jim Westberg in Bloomington (Minneapolis area), Minnesota. He is retired but still doing gun work. He currently is restoring a broken hammer and escuteon and a few other things on an original Rigby long range muzzleloader. About a $10k gun and one that will be absolutely perfect when finished. But will he do your 73? Hard to say.

Glenn Fewless is another, but he builds english and American singleshots mostly (he is a guild member) and I don't know if he would work on your 73. I just don't know any good levergun smiths. I'm a single shot guy and they could all do the work. I just don't know if they will. Dan Zimmerman or Steve Baldwin in the Oklahoma City area are two that I would trust for sure. Dave Casey up in the Cody Wyoming area is another.

But like Dusty suggests, I would shoot it first and see what happens. If it doesn't hold, then you know it can be repaired (just finding that right someone is the issue, but he is out there).

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:11 am

casastahle,
Thank you for the range report.

The tang sight is a great idea and the pards have given some great advice. In the meantime, you could try the Merit disc on some glasses which, in the past, before I installed tang sights, worked really well to sharpen the sight picture. Although instead of purchasing a Merit disc, I took a pressure sensitive black bullet hole paster and drilled a small hole through it and placed it on a pair of safety glasses. That worked very well. A pressure sensitive label colored black and cut in a circle would work as well.

w30wcf