POLITICS - Greatest threat to our freedom

[505stevec]

The "accused" are the most protected people in our society today. I personally agree with you in your feelings about our systems failings but, if you want it to change then there are procedures. I might add that many of these offenders bring great financial burden to their families without thinking of the consequence to their actions. Your family may well have been innocent of these charges, but think of your children staying within this situation until all charges are cleared or NOT. Are you willing to wait and see? How could you be if you love your children. Many of these perps I am talking about do not see children the way most parents do. I have had uncles, dads, grandpas, friends of family, brothers, cousins and any other relation as offenders. It is not easy to tell what they look like because they do not wear trench coats and have the name of Chester. So while you or your family are suffering because the courts dropped the ball, the over all system works for the best of society in my book where children victims are concerned. NO offense with the SIR thing Ms. Miss or Mrs.

[YellowHorse]

The "accused" are the most protected people in our society today.

Unless your state is totally different, I do not see how you could believe that to be true.

This former teacher now has a stigma attatched to him, he has an unjustly aquired record. No one even knew the name of the accuser, she has no record.
If the system were just, there would have been manditory charges brought against this accuser once it was suspect she was being malicious. The system, being that they had to follow manditory procedures continued to question and harrass the teacher even after she dropped charges and it was found the other two girls were part of her lies.

Another event concerns parents leaving their 3 year old with his three older brothers ages 18, 17 and 16 to babysit. This child, as children often do, locked himself in the bathroom.
Later the boy recounts that after using the restroom, he then climbed on the counter and sat up on the sink and turned on the hot water, severly burning his feet. The screams of this child bring his brothers crashing through the door and they rush him to the hospital er.

The doctor alearts CPS, and they take the child away for one week!
The child later tells his parents that they kept trying to get him to say he was intentionally burned. Fortunately this boy was self confident enough not to "tell a lie about my papa."
Did this child need to be kept for one whole week? Are you going to refute this child's innocent statement that he was being coerced into saying someting that was not true?

And then there is my friend who had her child taken because it was suspected she was being abused. Nevermind the girl was very pysically active and has the condition that causes her to bruise easily (I'm having a brain fanny burp and forget the name of that condition). While in protective custody she was traumatized by certain circumstances that I won't mention here.

Shall I go on? I have several more examples of how the system "protects" children and prosecutes "abusers."
All are only my personal experiences and second hand accounts through friends/family.
With all these personal experiences I wonder how often people are succesfully prosecuted for wrongfull allegations.
My sister's friend is now fearful to take her infant to the doctor because a strange diaper rash appears almost like burns and afraid that if she doesn't take him and it turns into something serious, she will be brought up on charges of neglect. darned if she does, darned if she don't

[505stevec]

I see that you are from the People's Republic of California so I will say this. Your state is definitely different from New Mexico. You all have the worst prosecution rates for State prosecution. Your state bars corparal punishment where as mine allows this. I will not retract that Defensants have more rights than anyone. Take a law class and you will find this to be true. All the way from the Exclusionary Rule that protects the guilty and not the innocent to Miranda warnings being mandatory. Two wonderful examples that the Warren Court overstepped their power and made law. The problem I see with California is the people have let the system run itself into an absolute power of the government. The LE officers should conduct their investigations in a timely manner. The court should adjudicate the case also in a timely manner. unfortunately this does not always happen due to volume of cases coming in. What is the answer I ask you? Lastly, your friend should not be afraid to take her child because they will be able to see if it is a rash or a burn. The reason these "duty to report" people are so over zealous to report is that they are liable also for not reporting.

[YellowHorse]

The woman with the infant resides in AZ. Some of my family live in Oregon and one friend is in Oklahoma.

[El Mac]

.
I heard on the news that the County Sheriff had been working with an "informant" inside the FLDS for 4 years, nobody has mentioned that yet. Here's a link:

Informant..!

Maybe this search was NOT about the alleged phone call at all, but about information that the informant has given. I'm sure we're not hearing the whole story.

Maybe he had specifics that were given to the police to make them concerned for all children living there.

I think the the "phone call" sounded suspicious from the get go, but the informant might have given them specific info about an adult male and a female child.

If the informant is real and credible, then I can understand why the raid took place, although I might or might not agree with it.

Well now, someone IS paying attention.

[JohnnyReb]

JohnnyReb,

You presume you already know everything about the case...you've read all the police reports, had a look at any physical/forensic evidence, read all the reports provided by the informants, perhaps even listened to all of the wire evidence, read any sealed indictments that may exist, etc....

I am going on the "facts" as presented by the prosecutor's office, the sheriff and the news media. It seems to me that you are making assumptions of child abuse, molestation, neglect. These things have been talked about but no specific allegations. Quote from new agency: "Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS".

The facts I can see: 416 children detained with no charges filed for 10 days.
(you can call it protective custody all day long but if you are not allowed to leave then it is detained).

What is proven or not proven is still to be determined.....the ENTIRE POINT I am making is that the end does not justify the means.

I bet that if you stopped and searched every car coming out of any major city for a single day..... You would find drugs and illegal weapons and people who have outstanding warrants and maybe even missing and kidnapped children. So if such conduct is so productive then why not use it???

[505stevec]

JohnnyReb,

You presume you already know everything about the case...you've read all the police reports, had a look at any physical/forensic evidence, read all the reports provided by the informants, perhaps even listened to all of the wire evidence, read any sealed indictments that may exist, etc....

I am going on the "facts" as presented by the prosecutor's office, the sheriff and the news media. It seems to me that you are making assumptions of child abuse, molestation, neglect. These things have been talked about but no specific allegations. Quote from new agency: "Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS".

The facts I can see: 416 children detained with no charges filed for 10 days.
(you can call it protective custody all day long but if you are not allowed to leave then it is detained).

What is proven or not proven is still to be determined.....the ENTIRE POINT I am making is that the end does not justify the means.

I bet that if you stopped and searched every car coming out of any major city for a single day..... You would find drugs and illegal weapons and people who have outstanding warrants and maybe even missing and kidnapped children. So if such conduct is so productive then why not use it???

What kind of attorney are you? Child protective services has the duty along with LE to investigate and protect the children... by taking if necessary. If you work criminal cases you know this. What is your point if this is the case? You know what the law says in this type of situation. Neither LE or Child Protective Services have much in the way of latitude here.

[El Mac]

I am going on the "facts" as presented by the prosecutor's office, the sheriff and the news media.

Exactly. You are going on what has been reported. In other words, you don't even begin to have all of the background knowledge to be able to come out so strongly against this action.

The courts will decide. The truth will be known. Let the courts do their job counselor. Surely now...

[505stevec]

.
I heard on the news that the County Sheriff had been working with an "informant" inside the FLDS for 4 years, nobody has mentioned that yet. Here's a link:

Informant..!

Maybe this search was NOT about the alleged phone call at all, but about information that the informant has given. I'm sure we're not hearing the whole story.

Maybe he had specifics that were given to the police to make them concerned for all children living there.


I think the the "phone call" sounded suspicious from the get go, but the informant might have given them specific info about an adult male and a female child.

If the informant is real and credible, then I can understand why the raid took place, although I might or might not agree with it.

Well now, someone IS paying attention.

When I worked for the Sherieff's Department here we conducted a similar "raid" on a similar "compound". Nothing was found that showed illegal activity exept that there was supposed to be a child their who was not. The mother an African native could not be located (presumbly at another compound in another state). who speaks for this child if not the law. she cannot protect herself from potential victimization. That is why there is CPS in the first place. The child was never found neither was the mother. It was turned over to FBI.

[Old Time Hunter]

Any one remember what the reasons were that both Hitler and Stalin used to seperate children from their parents...it was supposd to be for the childrens protection. Both Stalin and Hitler contended that the children were being harmed by the influences of the beliefs of the parents. Hitler for specific political idealogies and Stalin for religious beliefs...and of course they worried about proof after they acted. Hope we are different.

[El Mac]

Any one remember what the reasons were that both Hitler and Stalin used to seperate children from their parents...it was supposd to be for the childrens protection. Both Stalin and Hitler contended that the children were being harmed by the influences of the beliefs of the parents. Hitler for specific political idealogies and Stalin for religious beliefs...and of course they worried about proof after they acted. Hope we are different.

"Hope we are different."

My God. That is a slap in the face to every service man or woman who laid it all down or will lay it all down in the days to come, for you and yours. That is about the most shameful comment to date. Perhaps you didn't actually mean it that way, but that surely is a nasty comment.

[JohnnyReb]

505 , I prosecuted cases as a County Attorney and I am now a defense attorney.

Have prosecuted and defended dozens of such cases.

My point is that one girl calls in a complaint.....find the girl....remove all children from that home....from those parents.....from that family.....extended family.... But how can you justify over 400 children??

I think the constitution is being stomped on in this case. In our State, and most other adjoining jurisdictions, a warrant for pickup must specify a child or a particular home and/or conduct in that particular home and/or a specific person who is abusing children, etc.
Then a hearing within 72 hours to determine the validity of the warrant.

Just read the reports....the officials don't know who some of these children are.....who their parents are....... what home they came from....
This information is from the officials.

So leave the parents and children in limbo with no due process for over 10 days? Each day that goes by is an affront to our sense of liberty and due process.

You sincerely think all of the 400+ are subject to abuse?

Detaining without specific warrants and specific allegations of abuse? Just a general assumption? How do I know this??? They don't know the names of the kids or their parents.

Yes, there are very likely some cases of abuse... but you can't suspend the constitutional rights of over 1000 people with such a broad sweep of power. The ends cannot justify the means....

We could probably find 90% of the missing children in this country if every law enforcement agency conducted a house by house sweep looking for the abducted kids.

So you detain 400+ looking for one? If a SINGLE innocent parent has their child removed from their custody for the 10+ days...Then the price is too high. Guilt by association?

Criminals possess guns......guns owner possess guns...... therefore.......

You cannot allow such extensions of assumption of guilt to be tolerated.

[JohnnyReb]

Gentlemen:

I started this thread and believe it has been useful for the proper exchange of ideas. However, it seems we (myself included) are repeating the same arguments and rather than truly considering another person's point of view.....looking to only find a weakness in their position so we can win the debate.

I feel it is beginning to detract from the rest of the forum so to cool the debate, I am going to refrain from further comment. I am not asking anyone else to refrain or fail to post if they feel they have something to add.

I hope this debate has caused people to take notice of issues and different points of view.

Think I will go take some pictures and maybe make some posts of my combos.

most respectfully
JR

[AJMD429]

Gentlemen:

I started this thread and believe it has been useful for the proper exchange of ideas. However, it seems we (myself included) are repeating the same arguments and rather than truly considering another person's point of view.....looking to only find a weakness in their position so we can win the debate.

I feel it is beginning to detract from the rest of the forum so to cool the debate, I am going to refrain from further comment. I am not asking anyone else to refrain or fail to post if they feel they have something to add.

I hope this debate has caused people to take notice of issues and different points of view.

Think I will go take some pictures and maybe make some posts of my combos.

most respectfully
JR

+1 on all of the above
I hope nobody's 'shocked' that we don't all agree on EVERYTHING...!
(everybody can't be right all the time like me, after all...!
)

[piller]

We had a neighbor who turned us in to CPS twice to harass us, and CPS refused to follow the law and prosecute her for it. My deaf daughter had a school teacher sit in the classroom and watch 3 other children beat up my daughter. When we reported it to the school board, the principle called CPS on us. Again CPS refused to charge the one who made a false allegation. We had to call the ACLU, and CPS hasn't bothered us since, and the school principle has been demoted. In my experience CPS is as useless as a condom dispenser in the Vatican. Since CPS is in the mix, I must assume that the children were never harmed.

[sore shoulder]

Here is a little different take from a couple locals.

And wouldn't you just know this govt stuff job was done with the full cooperation of the local First Shiite Baptist Church. Even used the ...head Baptist church buses to steal the children. ......head Baptist cultists.

I believe that there may be more truth to this than most realize.

I live in the area and work relatively close to El Dorado on a regular basis. . First thing folks want to know around here is "What Religion are you?. Basically if you are not Baptist, then you are going to enjoy Damnation in Hell is the local attitude. I quite respectfully answer the question as " I go to the church of WORKING MY butt OFF" or "The Church of Hank Williams".

Biggest darn bunch of Hipocrites I've ever seen. They will judge one instantly by what religion you belong to.

Religion.....bend it to fit and paint it to match.

There is a Baptist church, literally on every corner in the larger towns out here. Usually one church of christ and maybe sometimes even a catholic. Ten miles on the highway before you get to any town in West Texas, you will be pleasetly greated with signs posting the names and addresses ( Sometimes with directions) to each and every church located there. 99.99999% are First baptist, antioch baptist, etc....



Makes me want to buy a corner lot in every town and open up "Topless Do-Nut shops"