POLITICS - looks like FLDS "victim" was a hoax

[piller]

Since the original caller was a crank caller, and in Texas that is a felony, when are we going to see the crank caller prosecuted? Having had several brushes with CPS failing to prosecute crank callers, and seeing the abuse that children in the foster system are subject to, I have no trust in the system. The people CPS gives children taken away from their parents to are in my experience as a Pharmacist only in it for the money. You should see how the poor kids are treated when the foster parents pick up medicines for them. The slaps and such are not even made to look accidental as the foster parents know as part of the system that they are above the law. They probably would be just as well off back with the birth parents. Also, the 10 years I have lived here have seen 4 Chiefs of Police in my town alone stripped of all rights to hold police officer powers. The State of Texas has some good law enforcement, but it has apparently a larger number who shouldn't be in law enforcement. It seems to be a long term and multi state type of problem, as even Wyatt Earp was a pimp while Marshall of Wichita, KS, and Dodge City, KS. He was such a good Marshall that there are several movies about him, although his criminal activities are conveniently left out. If we started mass arrests on any group with the intent to dig until we found someone who had broken a law, we could do it with any group. such as CPS. One CPS worker came to my house and made a pass at my wife, and she pulled a gun on him to prevent rape. He was only transferred.

[Old Time Hunter]

This whole incident just gets more bizzare by the day!!!

Last night on MSNBC they had a program where they interviewed the prosecuting atty and a CPS representative. Anyway, both finalized the hour long platform of allegations as to why the gestopo (my word, their's was 'authorities') did what they did, when rebuffed by the interviewer as to proof, the GA said "we have six women still being detained and once we can "FORCE" their co-operation, this whole thing will blow up". When asked as to how they are "FORCING" their co-operation, they both said that the authorities have told the women that they willl lose all chance of ever seeing their children again. This whole thing was on NATIONAL TV!

More info gleaned from MSNBC: Texas perportedly enacted legislation to increase the age of marriage consent for females from 14 to 16 just a year and a half ago. It was enacted specifically because of this sect. Now they are trying to find 17, 18, and 19 year old's that might have had children themselves after the law was changed but impregnated before it was enacted. Hate to say it...looks like railroading to me!

Again, I do not morally condone this sects practices, but even more object to this government witch hunt. Heck, the government has even had a talking head psychologist proclaiming that the this commune has rabid mental deviation syndrome that might take years of government regulated hospitalization to help these people start thinking CORRECTLY! Jeez....Soviet sanatariums comes to mind!

[El Mac]

Will a different law be applied to a 19 year old crack dealer that impregnates a 15 year old middle school girl in the "inner city" versus a 34 year old FLDS member that marries and impregnates a 15 year old girl in the FLDS community?

Not at all.

If the FLDS relocated to Puerto Rico (AoM 14), would we even be having this discussion?

Now that would be a daisy! Right after we cut PR off of the teat. That would just be something!

[Kismet]

Facts are not racist, but I see your PC programming is complete.

Don't be absurd - you don't have "facts," you have stereotypes.

Yep. Proof that you are more worried about Pregnant White Girls and their Ebil Church than Pregnant Blak Girls and their crappy, US Goventment Sponsored life...

Yeah, I mus have really misinterpreted those "inner city" comments.

The fact is folks, when law enforcement or child services has information they can act on - they do. I'll agree that it is very likely lots of cases go untouched because the services are woefully underfunded, but suggesting that black, inner city teens are getting raped and impregnated by adults and no one is doing anything about it is ridiculous and I guarantee not one of you making such statements has the facts to back it up.

Will a different law be applied to a 19 year old crack dealer that impregnates a 15 year old middle school girl in the "inner city" versus a 34 year old FLDS member that marries and impregnates a 15 year old girl in the FLDS community?

Of course it will be - why did you change the ages? (Even you stick with the 19 v. 15, your ages are close enough that any action is going to be dependent on facts other than the mere age difference.)

I am not saying that Texas hasn't overdone it here. Like many of you I suspect they have (though for me it is a matter of degree). Nonetheless, I don't know enough of the facts to assume nearly as much as the rest of you.

Michael in NH

[Kismet]

Two other brief points:

1) The term "anonymous" appears to get misused here a lot. The caller that reported this was not "anonymous." She very well may have been lying, but she told police who she was, where she was, and what was going on. That is not anonymous. While it may have been useful in this case, tracing the calls would be a very unusual thing to do in such a situation.

2)

Note there was a famous case in Washington state where a prosecutor arrested a whole church making all sorts of amazing allegations, turned out all false, and there was that Duke thing in NC recently.

And in between there were roughly 5 million (+/- 4 million) cases that were prosecuted properly. Again, I am not suggesting that there aren't abuses - and high profile, damaging ones at that. But, if your distrust of the legal system is based on those two reference points (or even the others OI can dig up for you), your reliance is misplaced.

Michael in NH

[bogus bill]

Okay. YOU!! Are sheriff! You never heard of poligamists, or if you did you just take it with a grain of salt thinking hell if there is some it probley isnt over a dozen familys in utah and arizona. That is what you thought up to 3 years ago. Then comes the Jeffs nation wide story. At the same time you find out the flds bought 1,700 acres in your county claiming it was to be a hunting ranch. Then you see a huge temple and walled compound are being built with 500 people moveing in on you overnight.
Now, being a good sheriff, you find out and read all you can on the group and where they came from and get in touch with the sheriffs back there. What you hear you can hardly belive! Unbeliveable! This is so huge and deep from reports you are getting daily it spins your hat around!
So now we really watch. Now we have to have plans on what to do the day we have to go in there! My god, why me! Why did I ever take this 35K a year job! There is now almost as many new flds there and more comeing every day as people that voted me in!!
You are positive that you are going to be in the spotlight of the nation soon! You dont like it, and you arent sure how to handel it! You know that anything you do, or dont do is gonna bite me in the butt!
Next chapter when I take a break

[Rimfire McNutjob]

... your ages are close enough that any action is going to be dependent on facts other than the mere age difference.

I am not saying that Texas hasn't overdone it here. Like many of you I suspect they have (though for me it is a matter of degree). Nonetheless, I don't know enough of the facts to assume nearly as much as the rest of you.

So "dependent on the facts" means that the "crack dealer" in my case may be in love with the minor? But that can hardly be assumed to be the case in the FLDS situation? Throw me a bone on how the law gets to bend when the ages at the time of the act are known. Maybe some social worker who is clearly an authority on love gets to decide?

I agree that the facts are not in ... but I also think that by the time the courts in Texas sort out the facts based on the "likely at this point" hoax call, the damage will be done. I can see perhaps 21 or 30 days being a reasonable limit to sort things out ... but a year as is allowed under Texas law?

And I changed the ages to help align with the assumptions that El Mac was working under ... nothing more. I'm sure the ages vary widely both in the "inner city" as well as within the FLDS. I just don't see his "oranges" I guess.

[bogus bill]

Not ready to resume my novel yet, But that age thing: I live near where these eldorado people are from. We have them shop here at walmart. I like to sit on the bench and obseve. First, you seldom see a young girl with a young man her age. I understand that is because the boys are thrown out of the sect so the old geezers in good standing dont have the competion. I dont know if there are ANY cases of a young girl marrying a boy her age!
I know its hard to understand whats going on on the other coast, but unless you google flds you cant begin to find out the treachery and oddball stuff that they do and the way they live! Not even by 10%!

[C. Cash]

Not ready to resume my novel yet, But that age thing: I live near where these eldorado people are from. We have them shop here at walmart. I like to sit on the bench and obseve. First, you seldom see a young girl with a young man her age. I understand that is because the boys are thrown out of the sect so the old geezers in good standing dont have the competion. I dont know if there are ANY cases of a young girl marrying a boy her age!
I know its hard to understand whats going on on the other coast, but unless you google flds you cant begin to find out the treachery and oddball stuff that they do and the way they live! Not even by 10%!

Some more info for what you are relaying Bogus Bill:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4684344&page=1

This is Jeffs group....this is what they do. The testimony of escapee's and the conviction of Jeffs et al for this same crime is clear. It's their lifestyle. It is a great thing to protect the Constitution and we should be greatly interested in doing just that in this case. It has been most aggressively protected here, to the point of becoming personal. However, to at the same time start ignoring or mitigating the obvious abuse that these children suffer under in order to keep the Constitution a holy document,...that's where the ends do not justify the means. This is not your typical, clear cut case of jack booted thugs knocking down some innocents door. Also, if anyone thinks it's okay for 12 + year olds to be told that they have to get in bed and have sex with their new arranged husband, or face the severe consequences, either because others do it elsewhere and get away with it, or because it was done in the distant past....well...I'm afraid that there is simply nothing much left to talk about regarding this matter. We live in two different realities. Good luck fellas.

[Kismet]

Throw me a bone on how the law gets to bend when the ages at the time of the act are known. Maybe some social worker who is clearly an authority on love gets to decide?

Well, I can't speak to the child-services stage, but when it hits my desk the answer is easy - I decide. I"m not trying to be a wiseass. The discretion on what is going to be charged lies exclusively with the prosecutor and the plea offer lies with the prosecutor. The defense attorney, of course, has input, which is why it is really a plea negotiation. Then, the judge can either accept or reject the plea. In the case of a trial where the defendant is found guilty the judge will essentially get to decide alone, though both sides will argue for something and the department of corrections may prepare a report as well with input from various parties.

I assume the "love" comment is sarcastic - there are a lot of factors that make a 19/15 sex case different from a 34/15 sex case and love is pretty low on the list! (Heck, there are a lot of factors that make two 19/15 cases different from each other, which is why the process above happens at all.)

And I changed the ages to help align with the assumptions that El Mac was working under ... nothing more. I'm sure the ages vary widely both in the "inner city" as well as within the FLDS. I just don't see his "oranges" I guess.

The apples to oranges comments were made because one of the accusations against the FLDS folks is that girls under 16 (or 17) are pregnant. I think many of us assume that the accusation is more specifically that an adult (i.e. spiritual husband) had sex with her and the pregnancy is the evidence. The comment was then made that given the above accusation, why isn't anyone heading in to the inner city where there are apparently pregnant teens all over the place. But, no one ever said anything about who impregnated those girls. Many of us suggested that such pregnancies were likely the result of teen sex. I would hope we all agree that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between adults impregnating minors and teens impregnating each other. Thus, apples to oranges as far as the basis for Texas' actions to this point.

I just asked why you changed the ages between the two comparisons because that really does make all the difference. Though I know nothing about the Texas family services (and they are apparently quite aggressive), I'll be willing to wager that if the teens were impregnating each other, Texas wouldn't be detaining over 400 people!

Michael in NH

[Old Time Hunter]

I must of missed something...who made a prosecutor God??? Thought a grand jury made that decision?

[Kismet]

I must of missed something...who made a prosecutor God??? Thought a grand jury made that decision?

The grand jury does either approve (find probable cause) or reject (or not) the indictment, but generally the prosecutor presents the indictments he/she wants to file. In practice I don't believe the grand jury ever completely acts on its own, though it may have that power.

Michael in NH

[JohnnyReb]

Yea but this was prior Grand Jury... I would like to see the warrant that ordered the taking of 416 children.

[Old Time Hunter]

So Michael, back to the issue in Texas, no indictment, no probable cause, no grand jury...how can these people be held? Why is there no writ?

[Kismet]

So Michael, back to the issue in Texas, no indictment, no probable cause, no grand jury...how can these people be held? Why is there no writ?

I can't answer that Old Time Hunter - I just don't know any Texas law! What I can say is that Child/Family Services does not operate under the criminal law, so much of what people are familiar with does not apply. I admit, I don't even know the DCYF (NH child services) regulations that allow them to take action here because they are not in the criminal system. If DCYF initiates a family case - when criminal activity is found it goes to the police to investigate before it gets to us. Believe it or not we often don't even know when DCYF has taken action because so much of what they do is sealed or confidential. I realize that speaks volumes of the power DCYF has here - I imagine it is similar in Texas.

As for a Writ of Habeas Corpus - their attorneys could file such a writ, but I imagine that if it would be productive they would have done it. (Given that there at least 350 defense lawyers involved, I have a hard time believing that they aren't doing all they can.)

Michael in NH

[Kismet]

I gather there are no TX attorneys on this list to dig up the relevant TX law, but these two links may help give an idea of the basis for "protective custody." The links are to NH law, but there is likely to be similar principles if not significant overlap.

NH Protective Custody
Relevant NH definitions

Again, this information is just provided to give you an idea of how the process operates. I am not making any other representations about the propriety or wisdom of the process. I would hazard a guess that this has all been challenged many times over and held to be constitutional (same in TX).

And I will add one more thing. Children have constitutional rights, too (though limited in some circumstances). Please don't forget that. As Steve wisely stated earlier in this discussion, when there are problems with the parents, the legal system is the only thing to stand up for those kids' rights.

Michael in NH

[piller]

In Texas there is no regulatory law governing Child Protective Services which I can find available to the public. For all practical purposes they have been given Janet Reno-like powers. The ACLU is the only answer to the CPS. As a hunter and firearm owner I dislike the ACLU intensly, but CPS is much, much worse.

[Old Time Hunter]

Thanks for the information Michael. Unfortunately it does not ease any of my reservations as to this specific incident. It does scare me, especially the III statement as it give immunity to people ordained by the government. License to murder so to speak.

What is the oversight on all this? It appears that what ever person or persons in power can decide what is and what isn't considered potentailly harmful to the kids, whether it has or not actually happened. Makes them omnipotent does it not? Therefore the state decides what is best for the children, the parents are just baby sitters allowed to produce kids for the benefit of society and regulated by the state. Hmmm.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I suppose it could be worse ... this could be happening in my state. Aside from losing an inordinate number of children under their care and falsifying reports, we have this jewel ...

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/2 ... rn_charges

I think these state agencies could stand a tad more in the way of oversight or a tad less in the way of power to ruin lives.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I assume the "love" comment is sarcastic ...

Apologies. I should know that sarcasm doesn't come across well in textual form. It can certainly muddle exchanges on this type of forum.

"Texas
§ 22. 011
Sexual assault for anyone to intentionally or knowingly penetrate a person under age 17, other than his spouse. The actor has an affirmative defense if he is not more than three years older than the victim, who is at least age 14.
Two to 20 years in prison"

And? I believe the FLDS contends they are married.

Given that there at least 350 defense lawyers involved, I have a hard time believing that they aren't doing all they can.

Let me finish that thought for you. "all they can to ensure the kids enter the foster care system expediently." I'm sure these defense lawyers that have descended from all of the surrounding counties are doing this "for the children". Their intentions, I would think, will be molded by their personal beliefs.

Earlier you (Kismet) mentioned that you didn't necessarily agree with the method Texas employed in this instance. Is your objection along the lines of JohnnyReb's ... one complaint from a 16 year old girl turns into 400+ kids in a holding pattern? I bet that warrant is an interesting read.

[bogus bill]

I just got home, been out playing. Thanks for that extra lead, c. cash.
I have been to hilldale and colorado city numerous times. Talk about our goverment being jack booted etc, it works both ways. You get off the highway at hilldale and colorado city, and you are followed by a suv or two of thugs! Did you know that? I have been followed, but it came to nothing. Others have been highly harassed with the poligamist police looking on.
Just another note here. If sounds like I am leaning away from the flds, let me just say this. When we moved here to utah my mother in law, my wifes step mother, laid it on us that john doyle lee was her great, great grand father.
John doyle lee was the only person exicuted for the mountain meadows massicure!
My mother in law left the lds and is a strong fundamental christian.
It was too late to rethink utah as she told us that after we took a trip here and bought our house! We like it here anyway. It did cause me to get in to studying all aspects of the poligamists because john doyle lee was the main punjab that was in charge of setteling southern utah. I belive he had 18 wives without double checking. See the movie "september dawn" if you ever get the chance. It is about the massucure of 122 people that he helped lead. Strange, it happened on 9- 11 1857! The 1st nine eleven!!
Mother in law agrees with me he was justly shot. We both also agree he was a scapegoat, and many more should have been shot. The massucure site is about 45 miles from me.
The mormans disivoled poligamy to get to be a state. The flds broke away to keep up the original beliefs. Actualy, the flds and other splinter like groups are exactly like the early mormans and the way I see it, the main church is the one that broke away and got moderenised!
My point in saying this is this: The flds if allowed to keep getting bigger will even carry out the old law of blood attonement if they already havent amoungst themselves! Dont know what blood attonement is? Its where if you sin or try to leave the group they consider that they are giveing you a last chance at salvation by slitting your throat! Dont take my word for it, look it up!
This and more is heavy stuff if you research it. This is how these gentil people really belive. Nuff for now, bedtime for me.

[Griff]

I have a headache... this thread caused it. This has been less than civil debate.

Goodnite, all.

[Old Ironsights]

... your ages are close enough that any action is going to be dependent on facts other than the mere age difference.

I am not saying that Texas hasn't overdone it here. Like many of you I suspect they have (though for me it is a matter of degree). Nonetheless, I don't know enough of the facts to assume nearly as much as the rest of you.

So "dependent on the facts" means that the "crack dealer" in my case may be in love with the minor? But that can hardly be assumed to be the case in the FLDS situation? Throw me a bone on how the law gets to bend when the ages at the time of the act are known. Maybe some social worker who is clearly an authority on love gets to decide?

I agree that the facts are not in ... but I also think that by the time the courts in Texas sort out the facts based on the "likely at this point" hoax call, the damage will be done. I can see perhaps 21 or 30 days being a reasonable limit to sort things out ... but a year as is allowed under Texas law?

And I changed the ages to help align with the assumptions that El Mac was working under ... nothing more. I'm sure the ages vary widely both in the "inner city" as well as within the FLDS. I just don't see his "oranges" I guess.

I don't see the Oranges either... except in the way the Govt is handling it.

Apple (A) Pregnant young girls who don't trust the Government, forcably removed from their homes against their will - No Men Arrested.

Apple (B) Pregnant young girls - Left at Home and Paid by the Government to have Babies - No Men Arrested.

Hmmm....

It would be Apples to Oranges if and only if they had hauled away the MEN (and I might have supported the action), rather than kidnapping the women & children.

[El Mac]

"Texas
§ 22. 011
Sexual assault for anyone to intentionally or knowingly penetrate a person under age 17, other than his spouse. The actor has an affirmative defense if he is not more than three years older than the victim, who is at least age 14.
Two to 20 years in prison"

And? I believe the FLDS contends they are married.

Ok...Texas Marriage Laws:
http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriageli ... /texas.htm

Under 18:
If you are between 16 and 17 years old, you may apply for a marriage license in Texas only if you have written parental consent on an official form in the presence of the county clerk or if you have received an order from the Texas district court authorizing your marriage.

1) Marriage under the age of 16 is expressly forbidden by Texas Law.
2) Polygamy is also expressly forbidden by same.
3) Sex with a minor by an adult is also forbidden.

Three strikes, you are out.

[El Mac]

It would be Apples to Oranges if and only if they had hauled away the MEN (and I might have supported the action), rather than kidnapping the women & children.

Gotta do the DNA testing bro...then come the pedophiles.

[Old Ironsights]

It would be Apples to Oranges if and only if they had hauled away the MEN (and I might have supported the action), rather than kidnapping the women & children.

Gotta do the DNA testing bro...then come the pedophiles.

No excuse.

Arrest the MEN. Don't kidnap women and children at gunpoint.

Now tell me how/why the Government can force people to submit to paternity testing?

[sore shoulder]

Facts are not racist, but I see your PC programming is complete.

Don't be absurd - you don't have "facts," you have stereotypes.


Michael in NH

Yet it's ok to stereotype religious seperatists.

Oh Jeez, you must live a sheltered life. Go to any inner city junior high or high school, then tell me it's a stereotype and not a reality. Calling it a stereotype does not negate the truth. Denial of a problem does not make it go away. Being afraid to admit the truth because it might be called racist is cowardice and it hurts everyone. Those who deny the problem through dismissal are part of the problem. We have a serious inter-related drug/gang/busted social program (read:pregnant teen minorities) costing us billions that is going to eat this country alive, and it is in FACT race based, like it or not. None of these problems will go way, and none of these minoritiy groups will rise above their societal problems as long as people deny the problem exists because of fear of "stereotyping" or "racism". Ask Bill Cosby.


If in fact the allegations in this case are true, I would still like to know why the suspects are not in custody, but instead due process has been ignored, children have been kidnapped, mothers have been kidnapped and are being subjected to interogations that if done at GITMO would have had a dozen ACLU lawyers on a fleet of private jets to DC within the day. We cannot do to terrorist suspects what has been done to these women and children. If this were a Muslim community the Libs would be in the streets screeching and pulling their hair out.

How can intelligent people ignore such obvious acts of abuse? I'm not even sure why I signed up to spill blood if neccessary and swore to defend these rights enumerated in The Constitution, when many of you are so willing to just give them away when the Marxist media labels someone. As far as I'm concerned it's cowardice and it pisses on all the graves of those who died in defence of those rights.

[Old Ironsights]

I wouldn't exactly call my little town of 29K the "inner city"... yet my wife can name at leact 3 children in her GRADE SCHOOL who gave birth in the last year... and DCFS hasn't removed them from their homes - much less at gunpoint.

Nor are they forcing these girls to take paternity tests.

The ONLY thing they are doing is making sure these girls are fully aware of how much the Government is there to help them with WIC/TANF/Food Stamps/etc.

Oh, & BTW, when my wife tried to say somthing about one particular 12y/o's pregnancy and her crappy home life, she was told by the State and the School System to MYOB.

[Blackhawk]

Arrest the MEN. Don't kidnap women and children at gunpoint.

I've read most of all the pages and I don't see how it can be any simplier than that?

If anyone is raped on the street it is always the prep that is gone after rather than the victim. Why is this different?

Maybe I'm just too simple minded?

Johnny

[El Mac]

Arrest the MEN.

I have no problem with arresting the pedophiles. The sooner the better.

Now tell me how/why the Government can force people to submit to paternity testing?

Judges have loads of power.

[Old Ironsights]

Arrest the MEN.

I have no problem with arresting the pedophiles. The sooner the better.

Now tell me how/why the Government can force people to submit to paternity testing?

Judges have loads of power.

And right there is a serious problem...

[Griff]

I'm going to state something here, & ya'll can take this to the bank. If a report is made to the police, even an unsubstantiated report that involves a minor, or when a crime against a minor is alleged, the police are obligated, I repeat, OBLIGATED, to investigate.

And, when the allegation involves a minor and is made against the guardian, the child WILL be removed from said environment and questioned. This is called the Code of Criminal Procedure, which, in Texas, describes the actions and obligations of the police to investigation allegations of crimes. I ain't gonna quote the chapter & verse, as it's been 5 years since I wore a badge and they mighta changed.

You can decry the abuse of the 4th and 5th Amendments all you want, but those are for a court of LAW to decide, not us armchair Constitutionalists to decide. I will tell you THIS, there have been many court decisions that have modified the verbatim interpretation of those two amendments.

I'm sure it's not really the case, but... some of you sound as though you're more worried about the letter of the law, rather than the safety of underage girls, being traded like so many cattle, forced against their will to marry and bear children. That's substantially different than some underage girl in any area that willingly, or at least professes to have willingly had sex to have a child. If someone doesn't file a complaint, how else is an investigation going to get started? I can tell you this, in Texas, it is the law that if an educator, doctor or guardian suspects any abuse of a minor, they are obligated by TX law to report same.

You can yell to the high heavens how that infringes upon the rights of parents or guardians all you want... but, it is the law of our land. But, quite frankly, any parent or guardian that has such little respect for the sanctity of childhood as to require a 13 girl to marry or bear children against their free will for the furtherence of a so-called "religious ideology", doesn't deserve my respect for their so-called "rights".

Rant off. Headache back.