where's Terry Murbach??

[Mich Hunter]

Well, here is my $.02. I have been on this board for a few years and love to read the threads. The internet is great as I have learned a lot from some folks that have a wealth of knowledge. But occasionally you run into a few folks that hide behind the computer and spout off. I can tell you that Terry Murbach is not one of them. He is one of the nicest and MOST knowledgable men I have met in a long time. I never knew of him until I got a PM from him while I was in Afghanistan in 2008. Turns out, I lived across town from Mr. Murbach and never knew it. Fast forward a few years and I have had the chance to sit down with him on a couple occasions over a few beers. He is a wealth of knowledge and fun to listen to. I probably learned more in a couple afternoons than I would have in a few years.

[Old Savage]

Well now, why don't we all get crosswise in arguing whether it is OK or even a good idea to get crosswise if you think you know more than the other guy. See where this leads basically each time it has come up. And, it has come up repeatedly. Griff is the guy in my opinion as the best model for listening to questions and responding to whatever level he finds and will address a wide range of people and questions. I have learned much reading his style. Not that I claim to be able to execute as it should be as this very post may indicate.

[Pitchy]

Yea lets get back to havin fun boys, i think i`m the one that jokingly said old fanny burbs.
Anyone over 35 is a old fanny burp arn`t they.

[Hobie]

Yea lets get back to havin fun boys, i think i`m the one that jokingly said old fanny burbs.
Anyone over 35 is a old fanny burp arn`t they.

I know I am. Mom called Dad that from the time he was about 45!

[vancelw]

Yea lets get back to havin fun boys, i think i`m the one that jokingly said old fanny burbs.
Anyone over 35 is a old fanny burp arn`t they.

I know I am. Mom called Dad that from the time he was about 45!

Nope. You're both wrong. I have it on good authority that old fanny burp status begins on (let me see, I was born in ____) your 50th birthday and no sooner! AND, I hear they are gonna change that in a year or two. Maybe change it to 55 or so.

At work I can't avoid it. I am an old fanny burp. Surrounded by employees younger than my kids. I wonder why I never know what's going on in their heads.

[DixieBoy]

Had a couple of thoughts I figured I'd share after seeing this little spat between Charles and El Chivo. First off, no, I'm not a marriage counselor or a shrink, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night ...

Up until last summer I'd been teaching American History at the local community college. Had a falling out with them, and so, looking for work out west now. But that's not the point. The point is that in these schools if you teach any daytime classes about 90% of your students will be brand new high school graduates. Meaning, young puppies.

I'm 58 now, so I don't qualify for old coot to all of the guys here, but rest assured, to the kids in my classes anyone over 35 or so is definitely an old coot. The huge majority of these kids respected me, initially because I'm 6'0" and 200 lb., in good shape, and I buzz my hair down to the nubs since it started "retreating" about 10 years ago. Very quickly they began to respect me for a much more important reason. I think most of them sensed that I cared about them, and that I didn't want to see them fall for alot of the nonsense that is "taught" out there, but I wanted to see them become just a bit wiser than the average teenager. We talked about alot of things which were not directly related to history, but had meaning.

I remember once, when someone had snickered when I projected an image of some old historical figure on the screen, and a student made an age-related joke. It was funny, and I had a laugh with them too, but then I said something that I know got to many of them. I told them about my Dad, and how he was born in 1918 (some of them seemed to have difficulty even grasping that someone born in that year could possibly be alive still). I was close to both my folks, and until Dad died in October of 2010, I saw him several times a week. What I said was this: "If you watch older guys, or you have a Dad, a Granddad, or someone who know on more than just a superficial level, you can look inside them a bit and inside that 'old guy' is a young guy, saying 'what the heck happened?'

Just my opinion, but I think us guys have greater difficulty with this than the wimmen folk. My Dad was extremely active as a kid, he hunted fished, covered lots of ground in his daily life. He was also one of the few guys I've ever known who could do one-armed pullups when he was 50 years old. I watched him do this.

But when Dad was in his late 80's and early 90's, he would sometimes get this look on his face and, to me, it was almost transparent. He'd done all of this stuff, been really active, and now as a much older guy, just moving around was alot tougher. Well, I took this as a warning to myself, because I definitely was one of those kids who thought he was truly immortal. It was a cancer back in 2001 that clued me in, once and for all, to the foolishness of that "immortal" stuff.

So, what's this got to do with the situation I described in the ealier post about the older guys at the bullseye range at our club ? Maybe this ... even at 58, I look about 8 or 10 years younger to alot of people who meet me. So, to the guys who are clearly in their later 60's and in their 70's, I am indeed a youngster. Not a 20 year old punk maybe, but still younger than them. And when I first met these guys and was checking out the bullseye deal for the first time, these guys had a choice. They could be welcoming, or they could send attitude my way and to my 60 year old buddy who was with me. They chose to send attitude, and we walked away.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier. Not trying to sound like some wise man here, because there are still wayyyyy too many times in my own daily life that I have to stop myself from being hasty, or a wise-butt, or angry with people. I have as big a problem suffering fools as many do. But I try, because often times when I look back at so much that I did and said when I was a kid I just want to cringe. I was sooooo full of it.

You guys who have made the point about the kids today, and how they "learn" via wikipedia and googling everything, you've got a point. Getting kids today to actually crack a book is HARD. I push them towards that anyway, knowing that at least some of them will go "Ah-ha, this really is cool," while others will never get it, and continue to look for 'express lane' shortcuts.

But getting back to that bullseye range scene, when we push the kids (of whatever age) away, it will be the rare one who sticks around. When it comes to our shooting and guns, the shooting sports, and all things gun related, we need to be constantly growing in numbers. That's just a political reality. We'll be steamrollered if we don't.

So, even when one of us might be a little hasty with a newbie and a foolish question, I'm glad that there are four or five others here who take the time to steer the newbie towards good information. And with that, I'll leave you boys to it ... DixieBoy

[rodeo kid]

Old Savage, you just have to get one of those new fangled flat screen LED HD tv's. The picture is amazing. I will turn 70 next year so I qualify as an old coot, old fanny burp, or whatever, but I sure do like those new tv's. Oh yeah, I went whole hog and got a new computer also. It is one of those all in one flat screens with no tower, and as the young-un's say: it is the bomb! God Bless

[Pitchy]

rodio kid we`re only as old as we feel, i`m still sayin groovy and far out.

[Old Savage]

Well this year old fanny burbs begins at 64 or 65 depending if I want to be in or out. And I see there are rights and privileges to both so the decision could and likely will vary AND - I have good women friends in both so that may be a factor.

[Charles]

I really don't have any problem with folks thinking old coots/fanny burbs or whatever are impatient, rude, critical and judgmental. I have made these observation of some old timers myself. But, old timers, like younger folks are very different from each other and can't all be tared with the same brush.

I do have a problem with the assertion that old timers "take advantage" of younger folks. I have never known that to happen. Perhaps Chivo means something by the term "take advantage" other than what I understand that to mean. All, I wanted was clarity and examples of what that meant to Chivo. Instead, I agot accused of "playing dumb". Now that I don't like allot! I think it is grossly unfair and probably slanderous of older people to level that charge without backing it up with examples and facts. It sounds to me like a form of bigotry until backed up with specifics. That just ain't right Pard!

I am either an old coot/fanny burp or approaching that status, as I will be 70 in July. Whatever personality changes do along with that, I have never taken advantage of anybody no matter what my age. I just don't do that and would not accept that behaviour in anybody no matter what their age.

Age, does indeed make a difference in a person's perspective on life. It make them value things less and family, friends and values more. Having worked with Senior's all my life, I knew what was coming, so I determined to make it easy on myself, when my turn came. I made certain that I did all the things, I wanted to do, while I had the physical capacity to do them. I didn't want to defer things, because I knew that there would come a time, when I could not do those things. I also made certain to live my life so there would be no regrets. I have no ammends to make or apoligies to give, for I have already made those ammends and made those apologies as I went along. I know that one day, all we have left is our memories of the life we lived. I do not want those memories to be a torture, but a joy to relive.

If you are luck enough not to die young, we will all get to be an Old Coot. It is nice to get there, enjoy the status and have enjoyed the journey there. The road ahead is much shorter and without any significant milestones of achievement. I would however be nice to get to the end without youngsters taking pot shots at you because you are older and have a different take on things. When the old judge and exclude the young, that isn't right. When the young judge and exclude the old, that isn't right either.

To the subject at hand of older posters on this and other boards. I for one have no problem with new folks asking questions nor taking the time to answer those questions. What gets to Terry, myself and others I can mention, but will let them speak for themselves, is when folks who do not have the experience and knowledge try to argue with those who do and claim to know more. Those are the "posers" I refered to in my original post. These are the folks who "pose" as experienced and knowledgable shooters and challenge those who truly are experienced and knowledable. These are the guys that get under your skin.

To conclude this missive, I recall a little shot poem by Ogden Nash

"The tusks of Mastedons that clashed in mighty brawls,
Are now just billiard balls.
The sword of Charlemagne The Just,
Is now ferric oxide, known as rust.
The bust of Ceasar now just sits on a shelf,
And frankly, I don't feel very well myself"

[Old Savage]

Ah yes semantics - one rule for sure - if folks get accusatory, insulting, defensive - you are wrong and I am right or ah ha! gotcha now and stay on it it is not going to work to understanding. And once they get old man's disease they sure ain't gonna see it. What does the other fellow mean by what he says ???? ain't gonna come into it but Charles here brings that concept up and leaves open possibilities. Feelings are what is usually underlying and they ain't necessarily logical. Engineer types - we have had lots of those around here what with the B1, the B2, the Space Shuttle, the L1011, several fighter prototypes and the Test Pilot facility at Edwards AFB - the top of the pyramid in The Right Stuff. They have their own way of understanding and the scope of it. Now the most hard core of them - there are engineer managers to keep them in the back room and away from the rest of the folks. What the engineer managers appear to do is keep the engineers on their tasks and understand them AND be able to relate it all to others such as the manager types who go all the way up the line. Now then there are the rest to the types and it all begins to make sense - at least to me with my experiences and all this can be thrown together in the same pot here. Griff whom I have mentioned here has self view and others view and skates between with a triple lutz or school figures. KirkD stays out of it entirely. There is association and influence here but not control except for Hobie who judiciously uses that and to most everyone's compliment. So like the sharp rocks in the stream when the floods come the edges get banged together and progressively knock off. I have always wondered how long it take to make those round and oval rocks so popular for decorating anyway - onward and upward boys. I have to go to the office for a bit.

[Blaine]

I have to go to the office for a bit.

Let's get cracking.....

[Pitchy]

I have to go to the office for a bit.

Let's get cracking.....

Must be a pretty woman there.

[Blaine]

I have to go to the office for a bit.

Let's get cracking.....

Must be a pretty woman there.

Shhhh...he tells his wife he's doing paperwork

[Old Savage]

Well, it was about a pretty woman but she is 250 miles from here but her file is there. Why it was about the paperwork.

[Griff]

Well... danged to all get out... as my Grandmother used to say. OS, I'm embarrassed. Your first statemen I was thinking was "Too kind. As yes, I try to be polite, like the #1 Rule here sez. But skatin' between views??? I mean really. So, ok, here's the unvarnished "Griff's view".

I have it fairly good authority that "Ol Phart" status starts as 60. My Dad called me up the morning of my 59th birthday and said, "Happy Birthday ol' phart!" He was 85 at the time. Not as spry as I'd remembered, and in pain all the time... mostly from the lack of physical ability that he'd been blessed with most of his life. He said, "...I was going to wait till next year to say that to you, but I don't think I'll be around to." That was the saddest statement I'd ever heard him utter. And prophetic, as less than 6 weeks later he was gone.

One of the very few things that gives "old pharts" any semblence of viability is that, usually, they've made mistakes that are still in front of youngsters. And like our predecessors, we mostly try to pass the wisdom gained thereby onto those youngsters... Mostly it's a folly to think we can, but the few occasions where one takes our warning(s) to heart... it's a great feeling.

One of the best courses I ever had the priviledge of taking was in high school. Mind you, memory is a wonderful thing... this is all the good that remember, and hardly any of the bad! Anyway, we had this teacher... daughter of a movie type... absolutely a dull looking creature, but with a mind that was full of curiosity about numerous subjects and knowledge of many more. A multiple subject Phd., AIR (As I Recall), that loved teaching in high school... I'd had her for Latin that I had to take over (a long subject for another time), and once again for a World History class. In my senior year she got approval for a new course, sponsored by the University of California @ Irvine, but only offered to selected high school students. I have no idea why I was included, I certainly wasn't a scholar; but, I reckon it was simply because she needed at least 30 students to get the school board to approve the course. Anyway, this class was set up and run like it was an upper level college course. The only graded papers was an outline due @ mid-term, (she had to have a grade for the mid-term per school regulations), and a final term paper, not less than 5,000 words due by the end of the semester. The outline grade wouldn't count toward our final grade, only the grade on our final paper. The name of the course was "Historical Research"... and our paper had to be (her words), "...the equivalent of a Master's Thesis" in order to be acceptable for grading. All aspects of the paper would be graded, grammar, spelling, content and definity of subject matter. The class (all 30 of us, then shortly reduced to 15 at the beginning of the 2nd week), then voted on the time period of history that we'd all work on. In that time period, which was the period between 1000 & 1500 AD, we each then selected a topic and did our own research. In other words it was our individual work that we'd be graded on, no curve, and we all knew she was a harsh grader... fair, but harsh. After the mid-term, there were only 8 of us left... The lowest grade, as I recall was a "B". And there was only one. All the rest received "A"s. I was one of them. We also received credit thru the UC system for that class.

The reason I have absolutely no problem with Terry, is that just like him, she would allow you to ask any question that you needed... at any time of the day or most evenings... she was absolutely wonderful... the best teacher I ever had. BUT, you had to ask an intelligent question. If she thought that your question was something that you should already know, or knew how to go about finding out on your own, that's what she'd tell you to do. In fact, most times, even when you'd asked an acceptable question, instead of answering directly, she'd simply give you a direction to head off into to look for your answer. I can't tell you the number of times I had to redefine my questions before they'd become acceptable! As did everyone in that class.

Oh, my classmates in that course... one became the principle of that same school... after a career in teaching... one became an admiral in the Navy, two became lawyers, one a doctor... one, after becoming an RN married a Fire Captain, and me... a truck driver. One gal, I couldn't tell you what happened... I truly don't know.

I'll tell you, my term paper was on the development of the printing guild in Flanders during that century. And in truth, who really cares about that as a subject... But, what I learned in that class was how to think for myself... and to rely on my own work. How to identify an problem... reason out the actual problem, not it's symptoms, develop a resolution.

Asking a question and having someone to just GIVE you the answer doesn't teach us a thing. And what I could write about EXPECTING to be GIVEN the answer?

Frankly, giving someone the answer to a question is the easy way out. (I know, I do it all the time). It was one of the hardest things I had to overcome with my son. For, like most parents, I certainly wanted things to be easier for him that it's been for me. But... I needed... no, HE NEEDED to learn to fail on occasion... in order to learn how to do for himself.

Lastly, I feel that those that criticise Terry really owe him an apology... no he ain't the most "polite" amongst us... but I firmly believe that his heart's in the right place, even when he's at his harshest. Those things we learn on our own, are things that we'll ALWAYS know.

Rant off. OS, does that qualify as not "skatin' around"?

[Old Savage]

The skatin' part was a compliment - so, you apparently missed the entire point. Now, you did learn something about that 5000 word thing though Now go back and reread the darn thing and see what you think it was that you thought I said and me bein older'n you I don't want no back talk there young'un. And since I am here doin' taxes I am in no mood for any foot draggin or funny business - you saavy? Terry - Terry who - I was spoutin' off about engineers.


Now you have complicated this skatin' - didn't at all mean "avoiding or side stepping" - meant you could be polite and don't feel the need to "step on" and still address anyone's questions in a way that makes them glad they asked and provides enlightenment for others reading that may not even have known the issue existed. I have learned much about areas of shooting I have not been involved in and I thank you for taking the time to write these informative answers.

[Griff]

Got your PM. The light bulb finally came on! That ol' "definition of terms" thing! Thanks for pointin' out my error in interpretation.

[Modoc ED]

There's an old saying; "it is what it is". I think that's it. I'm an old fanny burp (68) and can't remember exactly. Fred and Griff will set me straight if I'm wrong.

Anyway, Terry Murbach is what he is. People have been crabbing about him for years but he just plugs along dishing out his wisdom a spoonfull at a time. People griped about his ALL CAPS typing and about a year or so ago, Terry started typing his posts just as I'm doing -- lower case with capital letters for the words starting a sentence or thought and for proper nouns, etc.. When he did, people said he was being phony fer craps sake. They just weren't happy with Terry no matter what. They never will be.

Danged if those that had complained about his typing in ALL CAPS didn't start complaining about his lack of knowledge, character, alcoholism (totally false by-the-way) and the fact that he lived in the past and that there was no place for him in the present as he'd supposedly burned out years ago.

The guy (Terry) knows guns and as amazing as it may seem to some, he knows life. That's where the "Old fanny burp" definition comes in. Being an "Old fanny burp" is normally associated with old age but experiences encountered in life can make you an "Old fanny burp" real quick. Don't believe it? Just ask "Sixgun's" son John about it after the terrible time John and his daughters went through over the past few years. "John" is wise beyound his years as a result and is an "Old fanny burp" in every sense of the word/phrase.

I wish Terry was still around. I think a lotta you gotta admit he could be a hoot sometimes. I can't think of another person who knew more about reloading -- especially, the old timey cartridges that so many of you ask about and then he'd come right back with tips about the gun you were trying to shoot it in.

Sure, he'd tick me off sometimes but then I'd think about it, chuckle, and go on to another thread or project.

Enough rambling from my keyboard but I gotta say:

Any typing errors, mispelling, improper grammar, incomplete thoughts, etc. are not a result of my up-bringing or education but rather my "old age" (old fartiness you might say).

[Pitchy]

I always figured being called an old fanny burp was a compliment, bikers sometimes call older knowledgeable guys Grey beards.

[Booger Bill]

Y`all remember being called "little fanny burbs?"

[JohndeFresno]

OK - Interesting philosophy here.
1) I know quite a lot of guys that somehow were my age once (when we were younger) that are now old coots. Me, I'm mature, and I may sound opinionated at times because I am always correct. Strange, isn't it?

2) Many new guys and young folks challenge experienced hands because they are just clueless as to how ignorant they are! They require a bit of compassion and patience - or, in the words of a friend, "an extra measure of grace." I KNOW that was the case with my two daughters until they were, oh, about 30.

3) Do y'all realize that this thread, inspired by our friend and/or fellow site member who no longer posts, is longer than probably any obituary thread that has ever been posted on a gun blog site?

[Old Savage]

Well John D I did notice the length and looked at what else was as long. Airplanes, motorcycles, bear hunting not with a levergun, trapper length leverguns and funerals and final remains are the subjects of the topics. This is a lever based discussion group apparently but the biggest topics by interest and views are 80% non leverguns in subject with all the subjects in the last four pages different.

In this current discussion there are a number of views and none changing but as usual especially with old fanny burbs - what we think is what you get. It has all been covered several times, several times. But, it remains active likely partly due to the idea that how you deal with others as you get older and if you are not in contact with the real world (as opposed to your world) in a manner that requires that you have responsibility to other people for some performance of what they are the judge you will likely collapse your world to a size and subject and configuration in which you are the king and you are always right. I call this Old Man's Disease. Feel free to self diagnose. And contort the answers in any way you like to fit the outcome you want. And John D that is not directed at you but in general as how life is.

[JohndeFresno]

Yup, OS, that's perzactly what I was trying to say. In the words of that wise philosopher, Pogo Possum: