Hunting from a junk car

[madman4570]

Look,
It don't matter if it is one person,or could be every person on here. In my view(my view)someone that hunts a extremely low IQ animal which it is known when the hunter is elevated high up in a tree a deer has very limited smell of that person and normally don't gaze into the tree tops like monkeys.
It can only rely on it's instinct and senses it's limited to---doing the tree/bait thing "in my book-----is cheating" Maybe other people think it's not (fine and dandy for them)I just won't hunt with them,that's all.
Using the a whole class of people thing(makes no sense and is low class) 1 or 50 it is no difference.

Now, if in fact (in my mind) I feel someone is cheating(for that certain thing)sure I think it's low moral character(for that thing)why because "in my book" its cheating (and honestly I maybe think they would do something else that's could be cheating?????
I said--------maybe
But the number of people it don't make a hoot. If 50 Levergun members were hunting on MY place (cause they would know the rules or wouldn't hunt on it)were found hiding up in the trees saying"it's legal"(after I kicked everybody out I would on the way walking everyone to the road probably be using the word cheat)

Frankly, the deal with the (not having what someone else has----poor me thing, Man, that just don't cut it with me)
You make for yourself what you make.(those that do it on their own sweat,absolutely its a character builder and is respected as such) however if someone steps into it and is good people and has integrity that's cool too)

Maybe it's the way I was brought up,maybe it's what I did for a living for 31 years?

Still Hunting is cool-------and hunting being still--------is cool, if on the ground/no bait/not covered in some full concealment new product that probably is scent proof and now maybe even be infused with doe or buck pee.

Ya want to sit against a big oak or hemlock and place 2 or 3 nice sized dead limbs around the sides and front maybe coming up to your belly button while sitting on a soft little fold up seat-------Fine! I am cool with it.
Why, because to be successful chances are you are going to have to be dead still/pick the correct windage coming along the ground/not make a peep and do it a long time usually and when mr. deer shows up do all that while raising/aiming without being busted. (That's only FAIR) so, Suck it up/pay the price/give the animal a Fair Chance.
If not(my opinion)your cheating the animal/your cheating yourself
Some law maker sure they can say it's all right to do all those things-----fine------It's not what I feel is fair for the animal.
That's why I bust my butt to have what I have----no free rides crying-----poor me-----


I call it the way I see it and those that truly know me respect that and I hope honor me as a friend.
Those that don't==========screw em!
Oh,buy the way pard, having been assigned/worked/and retired on project " Marine One" helicopter you call it the way you see it.(no bulls###)and what do you do?

Enough on this topic-----------------I am done/wasting my time! If someone can't understand that------------Tough!

[Sixgun]

Madman4570,
I thought the Good Lord blessed me with words. You got me beat 10-1 Your last post could have been written out of my head. Good!

Mac in Mo. and the rest of you dudes--------- Everything is cool as I do feel the guys here are all good dudes. There may be a slight descrepancy in thought but if you can argue the point, you have "heart" ------------------------------------------Sixgun

[L_Kilkenny]

So which is it? You can't call someone a cheat and then be "cool with it" and you can't call someone a cheat and have them be "good guys". It's intellectually dishonest and rides a very high fence. Like I stated before if I sit on stand for more than 5 or 6 hours of our 5 day deer season than I'd be shocked so I really have very little dog in this fight. But to call someone a cheat for a hunting style that is legal, time honored and done by millions of hunters is over the top. God gave deer better eyesight, hearing, speed, endurance and nose than me. He also knows every twig in his home. He gave me a brain and thumbs. How I choose to use them is my call and it's not cheating. You don't want to do it fine. Don't want to teach that method to your family or friends....good for you. But the statements made by some usually level headed members is a little disheartening.

LK

[Streetstar]

Tree stand hunting ? Ok by me --- i was a bowhunter long before i ever used a rifle -- 80% of bowhunting is tree stand hunting

There are also old and established techniques of hunting like looking for rubs and scrapes, fresh tracks , and worn game trails --- then setting your stand close to those points

This has been done for centuries and i would bet more than a few of our forefathers jumped in a tree in days of yore to wait patiently ----
what's the difference between waiting in a tree stand or sitting on the ground anyway?

Coming from a bowhunting background, i would implore anyone to give it a try while wearing a plaid mackinaw, filson hat and smoking a pipe --- I can take long relaxing strolls in the woods with my .22 anytime of the year looking for targets of opportunity, but when its hunting season, I'm there to hunt---- i'm not advocating shooting an animal under a feeder , but other things that enhance my cover and concealment are fair game

as for the fellas using a stinky old car --- i personally wouldn't do it but don't see it as any different from any other blind hunting

[6pt-sika]

Madman4570,
-----------Sixgun

You guys have what I used to refer to as the "Northeastern Mentality" !

Meaning : if you don't do it the way we do and agree with us there's no way you can be anything but wrong !

And while you of course have a right to your "opinion" , thats all it is an opinion !

So as I said in the first page or so of this thread I don't give a rats backside how anyone does it or what they think as long as it doesn't interfere with ME !

So I will continue to use a climbing stand and go anywhere from 20-35 feet up a tree , I'll continue to use my ATV , I'll continue to use any rifle , shotgun , handgun , ML or archery item I want !
And I will continue to get my usual 10-15 deer each year . And as to whether I will loose any sleep over what you may or may not think , CERTAINLY NOT

[FWiedner]

What's the real difference between sitting in a tree-stand and dressing up in camoflauge and standing still?

What's the difference in surprising a dumb animal by shooting downward from a tree-stand or shooting one from 300 yards away through trees from the ground, or across an open ravine?

What is the difference between shooting one elk or shooting three whitetails?

The truth is you're "cheating" if you don't hunt in bare feet and wearing a loin-cloth. You're "cheating" if you and a half dozen of your semi-naked and monkey-hooting buddies don't "humanely" kill your game by running it down and beating it with a rock until it doesn't move any more.

The on-going squabble about what is hunting and what is cheating is just dumb. Come to grips with the fact that if you lived where the other guy is that there's every chance you'd hunt exactly the same way he does, and you'd probably scoff at your current habit.

[vancelw]

I think Fred stated it quite eloquently...

I hunt one way in MT. I have 30000 acres to hunt on, so I can still hunt and find the deer. I hunt for two weeks and don't shoot anything until I feel like it (BIG buck or whatever criteria I have that year) Sometimes I come home with my tag in my wallet because I wanted to hunt for two whole weeks rather than shoot something early on.

In TX I sit in a stand because it's hard to still hunt on 100 acres or less that is 50 to 75% open. I watch lots of deer go by sometimes and sometimes I never see a thing.

I own 15 acres and am surrounded by deer habitat. I could shoot one off the back porch if I wanted to. but I don't. I sometimes sit in a tree stand and sometime on a ground blind. I get a kick out of being within spitting distance of a deer and it not knowing I am there. This year, I plan to shoot a deer on my own land with a longbow a friend made me out of Tennessee hickory. It will have to be within 10 yards for me to make a clean, killing shot.

For me to call someone a cheat or unethical, they would have to be breaking the law, wasting meat, or being cruel. Taking pot shots, gut shooting (not on accident-just pure indifference or lack of skill) failing to track and retrieve a wounded animal, using night vision...you get the point.

Someone said the only reason to hunt was to get meat. No, the reason you hunt is to find the game. SHOOTING is for getting meat. I happen to love the hunting part a whole lot more than the shooting part.

[redlevel42]

It's still in the book I have of a fair/true hunting sportsmen------ (your CHEATING)

If you are wearing a breechcloth, mocassins, and hunting with an atlatl, spear, or a longbow with a sinew string, I bow to you.
If you are using a firearm of any sort, and preaching about "no unfair advantage", then I laugh at you because you are ridiculous. I bet you even use a repeating rifle, don't you? Even the most basic matchlock musket represents an "unfair advantage."

Get off your high horse.

[redlevel42]

Would some of y'all like to come down to Georgia with us dumb hicks and help us shoot deer at night legally on crop depredation permits? I have my farm leased to a large peach grower. He figures he loses $20,000 a year in destroyed new plantings. Soybean and peanut farmers consider deer to be vermin. I had to spend right at $1000 this year on a complicated electric fence just so I could have a garden. We don't worship deer down here. Many of us see them as a nuisance and a road hazard. If the State G&S would require hunters to kill a couple of does before they can get a buck tag, it would help. I have not done it myself, but I have a neighbor who has killed as many as 25 deer in one night in one 200 acre soybean field.

I said all that to make the point that talk of "ethics" and "fair chase" doesn't impress those of us who suffer significant economic damage caused by the animals you are talking about so reverently.

[Streetstar]

I have not done it myself, but I have a neighbor who has killed as many as 25 deer in one night in one 200 acre soybean field.

I said all that to make the point that talk of "ethics" and "fair chase" doesn't impress those of us who suffer significant economic damage caused by the animals you are talking about so reverently.

Some of the farmers around the area i hunt have similar "agricultural tags" too ----- but 25 a night - i still hope he found something useful to do with the meat (foodbanks - organic markets, etc)

[Mac in Mo]

Redlevel,

That is a lot of meat. Would love to get in on something like that. We have virtually no crops where I have my place, all cattle and timber. Deer are plentiful but we are over run with turkeys most years. We eat every scrap of deer , but could always use one more it seems.

Kevin

[madman4570]

Would some of y'all like to come down to Georgia with us dumb hicks and help us shoot deer at night legally on crop depredation permits? I have my farm leased to a large peach grower. He figures he loses $20,000 a year in destroyed new plantings. Soybean and peanut farmers consider deer to be vermin. I had to spend right at $1000 this year on a complicated electric fence just so I could have a garden. We don't worship deer down here. Many of us see them as a nuisance and a road hazard. If the State G&S would require hunters to kill a couple of does before they can get a buck tag, it would help. I have not done it myself, but I have a neighbor who has killed as many as 25 deer in one night in one 200 acre soybean field.

I said all that to make the point that talk of "ethics" and "fair chase" doesn't impress those of us who suffer significant economic damagehttp://www.levergunscommunity.com/posting.php? ... 1&p=457876# caused by the animals you are talking about so reverently.

Bet I spend more just on my Walnut seedling plantings "every year" for my Tree Farm than your as you say (dumb hicks) your poor neighbor buddy spends on his little 200 acre soybean field.(give me a break)
Course, there another one of you guys also go with that (high horse thing)must all be one family down there,maybe its the hick thing

$1000 on a fence(you poor guy) well lets see I just spent $1800 on a underground electric fence so my dogs wouldn't bother our deer.I kill one deer a year because the damage the deer usually do people usually over rate it and in their minds it gives them (an excuse)to over kill those poor defenseless deer.
You sure all you as you say(dumb hicks)just don't go out everything night with your little flashlights grouped up together in a tree or two trying to kill 25 deer for maybe to sell for some spending money?
Peanut farmer------------ya, are all you guys down there related to Jimmy Carter?

Mostly,yes I use a pump (shotgun)hunting deer.(loaded with $3 a box Winchester Super X Slugs)
I am just amazed how someones little brain works(maybe too many peanuts)can rationalize hunting on ground in bright orange with a 12ga shotgun (course sometimes a rifle) and running around naked with a butter knife or pole spear or sitting up high atop the tree limbs eating a brownie while maybe also passing gas.?

[93marshooter]

Where we hunt the cab of the pickup is the best deer blind as the farmer is always driving a pickup around and the deer are not bothered by it. We can move it as needed. There are very few trees.

[redlevel42]

Mostly,yes I use a pump (shotgun)hunting deer.(loaded with $3 a box Winchester Super X Slugs)
(course sometimes a rifle)

You're cheating!! You reckon that shotgun (sometimes a rifle) gives you an unfair advantage over the deer?

I guess its OK to cheat just a little.

Typical. "My way of cheating is OK, but your way ain't!"

Like I said, come on back and lecture us when you give up your firearms and compound bows and start using an atlatl and a spear.

[Hobie]

Madman4570,
-----------Sixgun

You guys have what I used to refer to as the "Northeastern Mentality" !

Meaning : if you don't do it the way we do and agree with us there's no way you can be anything but wrong !

And while you of course have a right to your "opinion" , thats all it is an opinion !

So as I said in the first page or so of this thread I don't give a rats backside how anyone does it or what they think as long as it doesn't interfere with ME !

So I will continue to use a climbing stand and go anywhere from 20-35 feet up a tree , I'll continue to use my ATV , I'll continue to use any rifle , shotgun , handgun , ML or archery item I want !
And I will continue to get my usual 10-15 deer each year . And as to whether I will loose any sleep over what you may or may not think , CERTAINLY NOT

My dad was from the northeast, upstate NY near Cooperstown, and when he grew up the sighting of a single deer was quite the treat. Later, he became a forester and part of his job involved game management. He moved first to WV and then to VA. He often commented on the many different methods of hunting used in the various areas and he and his professional buddies would discuss the whys and wherefores of the various seasons, limits/bans on various methods in various areas and the cultural preferences of the various regions in which they worked or had worked.

Based on all that it is my opinion that if somebody thinks they can judge another hunter who is acting within the law they're all wet. 99% of the law and regulation is written as a management tool or due to the personal ignorance and prejudices of the author and the government has done a wonderful job of establishing some of these laws as "traditional" and/or the most moral/ethical practices. One of the reasons this is done is that in some places and for many years in many places, deer "tags" were oversold just as airlines overbook flights to get the income. This was done by management looking for funds. There had to be a way for the actual managers of the game populations to sneak in a control so that too many deer wouldn't be killed. Limits were set per hunter so that all got an equal "shot" at getting their deer (for a long time that was a shot at A deer).

Deer in many areas are a pest and in others are getting pretty rare again. All this comes down to habitat and food. Here in Staunton the police have actually culled deer while in the National Forest 30 miles distant the eco-religionists have prevented all cutting to the extent that there is no food for the deer and deer are much more rare than they were 40 years ago. Deer ARE pests, vermin even, in some areas with so many that they cause tremendous damage to crops and are regularly hit by vehicles on roadways.

Sixgun and Madman4570 would likely approve of my use of a flintlock smoothbore during muzzleloading season (and sometimes during the regular "gun" season) but it was only recently that these were allowed while at the same time the regs permitted scoped in-lines with jacketed bullets in sabots. A bit of a disconnect there, right? And how many have hunted where it is shotgun only but you can use rounds that are accurate to 100-150 yards but ricochet like crazy because it is "safer" than a rifle? How many have hunted where a handgun was legal but a rifle chambered for the same cartridge was not? Does anyone think that logic was used?

Let's face it. If hunting is a management tool then it shouldn't matter how one kills a deer as long as it is done safely and, I think, the meat isn't wasted. If management is the concern, the departments should set quotas for deer to be killed and when that number of deer have been killed the season should be closed. You should be able to hunt with an atlatl, bow, gun, even knife or your bare hands if you like. In Canada trappers who get so many tags for beaver are expected to take that number of beaver, it isn't just a goal, it is a quota they have to fill. How receptive would you be of a system in which you can get a deer "tag" but if you don't "fill" it you don't get another?

In some places a stand is simply the only safe way to control hunters and "fields of fire". This practice is how it is done in many/most places in Europe where the foresters strictly control game management and hunting. I know it varies from place to place and I hope our European members will comment on this. In a high stand or "seat" one's round must go down into the ground and that's considered safer. Here in Staunton the cull was done from such stands carefully placed but sometimes within 50 yards of houses. (interestingly, of 45-50 shots fired only ONE was reported to 911)

I notice that Nath and Gamekeeper don't get much flak for their hunts but some would definitely be frowned on in some of the places I've lived. Perhaps the fellas from those areas are just more tolerant...

[Hobie]

I had seen this tread when it first came up and dismissed it not thinking there would be much controversy with it. I do find it amusing with so many opinions ready to delare another hunters tactics as UNSPORTSMAN LIKE. Making use of an old car to me is not only practical but THRIFTY.

However, one thing I dont understand but find quite amusing are statements which declare the use of tactics such as this, deer stands, cover scents or baiting as UNSPORTSMAN, yet many hunters as non hunters feel it is SPORTING and in good judgement to hire a professional guide to put them on whatever game they may choose to hunt. You can witness this any time you choose to turn on a hunting show. The guide takes them to a field with large bucks and based on the clients pocket book determines which animal he takes.

I just wanted to note that guides are a REQUIREMENT or have been REQUIRED in some places.

[Sixgun]

So which is it? You can't call someone a cheat and then be "cool with it" and you can't call someone a cheat and have them be "good guys". It's intellectually dishonest and rides a very high fence. But the statements made by some usually level headed members is a little disheartening.
LK

LK,
I'll tell you why. Its because after we have reached adulthood, our ethics, attitudes, and way of life are ingrained into each of us and that nothing less than electrical brainwashing or a 3/8" drill bit into the knee cap will change us. I realize this and then sease to argue as it turns into a war of words of which neither party will bow to. As human beings, we all want the last word. Even children do it

I guess its a way of saying "OK, I've had enough, lets get back to talking guns"

Here in S.E.Pa, in the Special Regulations area, BAITING is now legal. That means you have have your own personal monogrammed salt lick and up to a 5 gallon bucket of corn, feed, apples, whatever near where you hunt. Combine that with gilly suits, fox pee, 20' tree stand, wind guage, gps, hot coffee bottle, prescription meds, Gor-Tex booty's, all with an ATV and a $55,000 Dodge diesel pick-up truck parked 100 yards away really makes for a tough hunt. As my hero Teddy Roosevelt said, "The best way is the hardest way--it shows character"

As our worldly and intelligent moderator Hobie says, "Most laws are written as game management issues and some safety regs." and it sure looks like the car insurance companies rule the roost here in Pa.

Anyone who says, "get a bow and arrow, spear, or a knife to hunt" is just being an idiot to the arguement---go away

There are not too many deer-there are too many people---------------Sixgun

[FWiedner]

There's the old jag "If you're gonna be stupid, you gotta be tough."

I'd propose that "Sometimes stupid, whether tough or not, is just stupid."

[redlevel42]

it sure looks like the car insurance companies rule the roost here in Pa.

You mean the insurance companies actually like it that PA leads the nation in deer/car collisions?

[Sixgun]

it sure looks like the car insurance companies rule the roost here in Pa.

You mean the insurance companies actually like it that PA leads the nation in deer/car collisions?

Redlevel,
Some people ought to take a course in "word perception"? I really don't think the insurance companies like that we lead the nation in deer/car collisions, but we do and we all know "money" is the deciding factor in law, not righteousness. There's plenty of old/new money where individuals pride themselves of their 4 acre lush green lawns which help to the population of deer. Its kinda like the same way free money feeds the population explosions in Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Detroit, Atlanta, etc.-------Sixgun

[madman4570]

Sixgun, MKL White,
Dude, no matter what anyone says my thoughts on this will not change.
What will change is what people on here show how they think about killing deer.(why they kill them)
You and myself think differently from the others(that's OK friend)
We don't think of a deer as being a rat or groundhog. Sounds like many on here do.
That's OK, if that's what killing deer means to them,well that's it.
Hunting to us is how we were raised.It won't change.It's how I teach my young ones also.
I take pleasure so much more than just the kill.
If someone like what was said from the beginning of this topic(which cranked me up)wants to put a junk car in a field with human dummies
so the deer will be tricked into getting used to it,then switch with the dummies(the stuffed ones)and spray down with a half bottle of odor killer and they feel proud fine-------I guess when you think deer are rats anything goes.
Just not at my place! Deer to me are so much more.

[rjohns94]

Well, I have watched this thread unfold and actually I had decided earlier that I was going to withhold comment but there is a burning desire, deep in my heart to express some points of clarification and some points I have come to understand as I have grown as a person and a hunter in my short experience. I defer to those with much more experience and to those who don't agree with my point of view, and like you, I don't feel a need to have to defend my statements below.

There is a huge difference in my book between hunting, shooting and harvesting. NO Joe, the purpose of hunting is not taking game. Not for me. The purpose for me is interject myself into the food chain as God made me to do. To become a predator and to do this as ethically as possible. When I do this, I feel God's pleasure in my decisions. Just because something is legal, it does not mean I desire to do it. Does not mean that it fits into my vision of hunting. If you have made the decision that it is ethically and legally right to do something, then go for it. If it adds to your experience, then fine. For me, less is better. The hard way has become my way. My primary goal is not to put meat on the ground, it is much further down the list. Hunting is what I do because God made me a Hunter and Gatherer. I feel His pleasure when I make, what are to me moral and ethical decisions to participate in the gift of hunting.

I hunt with a long bow, wooden arrows, two blades on the end of the arrow. Yes it is a modern longbow. Only because I have yet been able to make my desire to make my bow as high a priority as I have made serving my fellow man. I hunt with a flintlock and I love it. I wear period dress, I stay in the woods, I use minimal camp strategies because it speaks to the ancient in me. I sleep under the stars and listen to the breath of the woods, the heart beat of the earth under me. My flintlock is modern, but made the exact way there made in the 18th century. I could use a modern in-line, scoped (which I own) but I choose not to. My choice. But this choice is true to me. During regular season, I like many of you, use either an original winchester or again, my flintlock. Again, my choice, your choice. But to choose anything else would not be where I am. To shoot at long distances, to snipe, to harvest, to shoot, is not who I am. Could I? most certainly. There were times in my life when I did. Not anymore. Open sights, close range. Wolf range. To be able to smell the prey, to sense their fear when they pick up my scent. to interject myself into their world, their steps. I once touched a doe with my longbow that I had stalked into range while she fed and went about her life. I had on blue jeans, t-shirt, grey wool sweater and black cap. Moccasins on my feet. It is my greatest memory of hunting.

I have shot game. I harvested animals. But hunting is something different. I shoot game birds with a side by side. I love walking the fields, the feel of the 120 year old shotgun, the hammers having been reworked as the action, now ready to serve another 100 years. I don't have to shoot my limits, though some times I do. I am just as happy coming home empty handed, a smile on my face over the flights of birds I saw, the explosive rise of a grouse or pheasant. I don't use a semi with three shots, but I could. Sometimes I hunt with a 12, other with a 20. Many times with a single shot flintlock smooth bore.

My prefered center fire rifle is a sharps and God willing, it and its open sights will travel to South africa next may. It is a modern weapon. I choose to shoot BP in it. I could use modern ammo, modern bullets. But I don't. I pour my own lead bullets and enjoy the process of using a single projectile, making the stalk count, the shot count. Whether Flintlock, Bow, BP single shot, or ancient levergun - it is the method of their use, that to me seperates hunting from all other forms of game gathering. I make no apologies for liking the way I hunt, for making it harder than it has to be. Man always has the advantage due to our brain. I don't feel the need to use the scents, the attractors, the latest and greatest. I like the ancient and in their use, I feel the ancients come alive in my hunt, the communion of those gone before, the pleasure of the God I serve.

I have shot animals at a game farm. I have sniped animals from afar, I have hung from a tree in a stand, but in no case did I ever consider those forms of collecting meat - hunting. In many cases they were a cull situation. In many cases, the meat went to the homeless, the elderly.

The OP mentioned the use of an old car as a blind. if legal, if it suits the hunters ethics, then more power to them. Not for me. Not when I'm hunting.

[6pt-sika]

We don't think of a deer as being a rat or groundhog. I guess when you think deer are rats anything goes.
Just not at my place! Deer to me are so much more.

A living thing is a living thing regardless of whether it may be a "rat or groundhog" as you say ! Or a deer !

So to say one wild creature is above the other is ridiculouse !

While I am not an advocate of eating the mighty Groundhog I have in my time run across folks that were !
And one or two of them I actually think preferred a Groundhog to deer for table fare .
Quite frankly if and that is a huge if , you were ever on my property . You would hunt from a stand and not leave it until i came to get you . And as I am quite positive you couldn't follow the "house rules" so to speak you would be told to exit stage left

[6pt-sika]

I have not done it myself, but I have a neighbor who has killed as many as 25 deer in one night in one 200 acre soybean field.

I said all that to make the point that talk of "ethics" and "fair chase" doesn't impress those of us who suffer significant economic damage caused by the animals you are talking about so reverently.

Some of the farmers around the area i hunt have similar "agricultural tags" too ----- but 25 a night - i still hope he found something useful to do with the meat (foodbanks - organic markets, etc)

I've skinned , gutted and cut up as many as 7 in a day by myself !
Don't think I'd want any part of taking care of 25 in a night

[6pt-sika]

I really don't think the insurance companies like that we lead the nation in deer/car collisions, but we do and we all know "money" is the deciding factor in law, not righteousness.

Get on Interstate 81 or 80 or 84 in PA and watch how a good many of the people drive or ESPECIALLY on the Turnpike .

I personally feel the way a good many of them drive has a lot to do with the many deer related accidents in your state !

[madman4570]

We don't think of a deer as being a rat or groundhog. I guess when you think deer are rats anything goes.
Just not at my place! Deer to me are so much more.

A living thing is a living thing regardless of whether it may be a "rat or groundhog" as you say ! Or a deer !

So to say one wild creature is above the other is ridiculouse !

While I am not an advocate of eating the mighty Groundhog I have in my time run across folks that were !
And one or two of them I actually think preferred a Groundhog to deer for table fare .
Quite frankly if and that is a huge if , you were ever on my property . You would hunt from a stand and not leave it until i came to get you . And as I am quite positive you couldn't follow the "house rules" so to speak you would be told to exit stage left

Talk about being kludged and the way you carry on and on about those little baby elk deer you shoot.(their just like rats right?)
All the same?-------------
Give me a break?
Pal, trust me I don't need to hunt your little place and surely won't.
When you start hunting a real deer like a whitetail and give up that easy dumbed down baby elk prey(their just like rats) maybe you will then feel true non penned hunting.
Deer, same as Rats??????????????? Maybe the Sika ?????????????? Get Real!
Course I suppose there are people that eat rats ????????

[madman4570]

I really don't think the insurance companies like that we lead the nation in deer/car collisions, but we do and we all know "money" is the deciding factor in law, not righteousness.

Get on Interstate 81 or 80 or 84 in PA and watch how a good many of the people drive or ESPECIALLY on the Turnpike .

I personally feel the way a good many of them drive has a lot to do with the many deer related accidents in your state !

Their not from Pa---check the plates------------their from further down south!

[madman4570]

Well, I have watched this thread unfold and actually I had decided earlier that I was going to withhold comment but there is a burning desire, deep in my heart to express some points of clarification and some points I have come to understand as I have grown as a person and a hunter in my short experience. I defer to those with much more experience and to those who don't agree with my point of view, and like you, I don't feel a need to have to defend my statements below.

There is a huge difference in my book between hunting, shooting and harvesting. NO Joe, the purpose of hunting is not taking game. Not for me. The purpose for me is interject myself into the food chain as God made me to do. To become a predator and to do this as ethically as possible. When I do this, I feel God's pleasure in my decisions. Just because something is legal, it does not mean I desire to do it. Does not mean that it fits into my vision of hunting. If you have made the decision that it is ethically and legally right to do something, then go for it. If it adds to your experience, then fine. For me, less is better. The hard way has become my way. My primary goal is not to put meat on the ground, it is much further down the list. Hunting is what I do because God made me a Hunter and Gatherer. I feel His pleasure when I make, what are to me moral and ethical decisions to participate in the gift of hunting.

I hunt with a long bow, wooden arrows, two blades on the end of the arrow. Yes it is a modern longbow. Only because I have yet been able to make my desire to make my bow as high a priority as I have made serving my fellow man. I hunt with a flintlock and I love it. I wear period dress, I stay in the woods, I use minimal camp strategies because it speaks to the ancient in me. I sleep under the stars and listen to the breath of the woods, the heart beat of the earth under me. My flintlock is modern, but made the exact way there made in the 18th century. I could use a modern in-line, scoped (which I own) but I choose not to. My choice. But this choice is true to me. During regular season, I like many of you, use either an original winchester or again, my flintlock. Again, my choice, your choice. But to choose anything else would not be where I am. To shoot at long distances, to snipe, to harvest, to shoot, is not who I am. Could I? most certainly. There were times in my life when I did. Not anymore. Open sights, close range. Wolf range. To be able to smell the prey, to sense their fear when they pick up my scent. to interject myself into their world, their steps. I once touched a doe with my longbow that I had stalked into range while she fed and went about her life. I had on blue jeans, t-shirt, grey wool sweater and black cap. Moccasins on my feet. It is my greatest memory of hunting.

I have shot game. I harvested animals. But hunting is something different. I shoot game birds with a side by side. I love walking the fields, the feel of the 120 year old shotgun, the hammers having been reworked as the action, now ready to serve another 100 years. I don't have to shoot my limits, though some times I do. I am just as happy coming home empty handed, a smile on my face over the flights of birds I saw, the explosive rise of a grouse or pheasant. I don't use a semi with three shots, but I could. Sometimes I hunt with a 12, other with a 20. Many times with a single shot flintlock smooth bore.

My prefered center fire rifle is a sharps and God willing, it and its open sights will travel to South africa next may. It is a modern weapon. I choose to shoot BP in it. I could use modern ammo, modern bullets. But I don't. I pour my own lead bullets and enjoy the process of using a single projectile, making the stalk count, the shot count. Whether Flintlock, Bow, BP single shot, or ancient levergun - it is the method of their use, that to me seperates hunting from all other forms of game gathering. I make no apologies for liking the way I hunt, for making it harder than it has to be. Man always has the advantage due to our brain. I don't feel the need to use the scents, the attractors, the latest and greatest. I like the ancient and in their use, I feel the ancients come alive in my hunt, the communion of those gone before, the pleasure of the God I serve.

I have shot animals at a game farm. I have sniped animals from afar, I have hung from a tree in a stand, but in no case did I ever consider those forms of collecting meat - hunting. In many cases they were a cull situation. In many cases, the meat went to the homeless, the elderly.

The OP mentioned the use of an old car as a blind. if legal, if it suits the hunters ethics, then more power to them. Not for me. Not when I'm hunting.

Mike,
When I think of someone that to me would be a mentor, a person that goes to the utmost limits of all things good in the forest combining man/wilderness/nature and God my friend you are it.
The class you show is more than my little brain sometimes can understand.You are a Good Man.
To hunt with you(no,I would be embarrassed because I am not close to your caliber)honestly, don't know who is?
I know you speak the truth,I can feel it in your words.
You are what the Hunting man is all about.
You should be proud!
We all could do well to learn from you!

Forgive me on some of my comments on this post. It's not my usual self and the comments coming from the other side aren't much better.
This post I feel extremely passionate about(probably is best we are all only far away from one another and at a keyboard)
I just cannot seem to grasp the very thought of hiding/sneaking/in some parked car(should be illegal,oh that's right no tires on it?)
stuffing it with Human dummies masking all scents/probably baiting/ shooting out the windows and they have the nerve to call that Hunting????
Forgive me for I can't grasp with that type of shameful slithering slyness of what's true to man/nature/ and hunting.

Looks like this thinking of acceptability might be the majority and not the minority of members on here,So with that in mind maybe I might do very well to sadly leave this Forum ?

[Streetstar]

Looks like this thinking of acceptability might be the majority and not the minority of members on here,So with that in mind maybe I might do very well to sadly leave this Forum ?

Don't be too hasty to do anything rash based on one heated thread ---- thankfully nobody has even mentioned running deer with dogs yet -- still a very common practice in the south

We all come from different geographic areas and from different hunting backgrounds , and have differing ages. Its all a factor in how we hunt. We all seem to like leverguns though -- a rifle format that has had few meaningful changes in the last century --- so most of us are anachronisms to an extent due to this alone.
I can't count the number of times somebody has asked "Why don't you get a ------fill in the blank - 7 mag or 30-06, etc. " to which i generally reply that i have a safe full of more modern machinery, but prefer to use an old rifle design that usually handicaps me to 150 yards or less when i am hunting
I like using something my dad or granddad might have used. Other hunting techniques, i have a "bend but don't break" philosophy ----part of it comes from my personal bowhunting background - the bowhunters pioneered a lot of the camouflage and concealment techniques ---- during rifle or ML season though, many of us ahve to wear blaze, so whats the point?

Anyway --- i'm a guy who is not going to shoot a 9 month old button buck out of its bed or anything, but OTOH, i feel like my time in the woods is precious and if i can enhance that time with a a few modern techniques or products, so much the better ----- I can also understand you guys who want to lay technology aside for the weekend --- i totally get that.

But don't get too wrapped up in one thread --- the forum is a sharing of ideas, experiences , and in some cases, wisdom -- mixed in with humor and world events too -- all centered around the old, anachronistic dinosaur era rifles we all enjoy (and we occasionally talk about them too)

I'm not going to hunt out of a funky junk car -- but last year, i sat in my tree stand and read a book on the kindle app for my iphone --- so what -- i was still in the woods and it was still cold as heck and i still had a great outing

[jkbrea]

Wow, all I've learned is I'm dummer than a deer or elk. A low IQ animal outsmarted me the first three years while I cheated. I used a 45-70 and an cow call. (Are calls cheating?).

All kidding aside, it seems to me hunting methods vary based on terrain, accessibility, and laws. I've only hunted deer in Ca., (unsuccessfully, they must be smarter than elk), and elk in Wyoming. I've never even seen a tree stand in any of those places. When I visited in upstate Michigan, I saw numerous treestands from the highway while driving. I just assumed that's how they hunt here based on the environment. Making judgements on the character of someone I know nothing about.....never crossed my mind.

When hunting elk in Wy., I look for watering holes, rubs, etc and if one is there, I don't feel it's cheating shooting an elk on the way to get water because I thought he may go there. I don't use camo anymore because I don't think it matters, or works. Different animals dictate different methods. Still hunting in thick timber where they bed down is a gamble at best. I do it because it's fun, but it has rarely worked. Most of the time, it's still hunting game trails at sun up or sun down, and yes, using an occassional cow call. In some states with wide open areas, using a scoped rifle is the way to go.

My point is, if a hunter hunts from a treestand, I don't think that makes him or her inclinded to be a "cheat" in their lives. Hunting in no way is a predictor of a man's character.
Maybe a man's character dictates the way he hunts, but so do the laws, game, terrain, experience and other factors.

When I first joined this forum, I brought up an article stating some hunters were using 50 caliber sniper rifles and shooting 1000 yard+ shots at elk. I thought it was unethical and inhumane because it stated some elk were wounded and never recovered. I got slammed by members saying as long as it was legal, its ok. I wouldn't do it, but some were right, who am I to say they can't if it's legal. Some wound game at much closer distances. How you hunt is a personal preferance. It doesn't make a person a "cheat" or immoral.

[Gobblerforge]

In some places a stand is simply the only safe way to control hunters and "fields of fire". This practice is how it is done in many/most places in Europe where the foresters strictly control game management and hunting. I know it varies from place to place and I hope our European members will comment on this. In a high stand or "seat" one's round must go down into the ground and that's considered safer. Here in Staunton the cull was done from such stands carefully placed but sometimes within 50 yards of houses. (interestingly, of 45-50 shots fired only ONE was reported to 911)

I notice that Nath and Gamekeeper don't get much flak for their hunts but some would definitely be frowned on in some of the places I've lived. Perhaps the fellas from those areas are just more tolerant...

I've been to Europe many times and the Netherlands and Germany both use elevated stands just as Hobie says. I find it saddening that sportsmen use their time to find fault with their own ranks. We should maybe be as fast to pat on the back those that apply great effort and stay legal.
Gobbler

[t.r.]

Some hunters do not comprehend us guys who are meat-getters. They'd be angry with Dan'l Boone for his "over harvesting" of does and immature bucks back in his time.

I'm sorry that some self righteous people have stated unkind things to others.

I'm all for thrifty hunts while obeying game laws. My buddies are NOT dirt bags at all. People that throw these unkind names like stones would never do so if they really knew my buddies. A little redneck, YES! But dirt bags, NO! I'm a bit of a redneck, too. Guess it takes one to know (and appreciate) one.

TR

[harry]

"Looks like this thinking of acceptability might be the majority and not the minority of members on here,So with that in mind maybe I might do very well to sadly leave this Forum ?"

So we won't bow down to your way of thinking and it irritated you off, well thats to bad. Guess you will just have to hag out on your hobie farm and worship your deer.
Harry

[Hobie]

Ah, running deer with dogs. Yes, in some parts of the country it is considered right and it is legal. Here in VA the Commonwealth has something of a split personality on the subject with it being allowed in some places and not in others. Why? All you have to do is look at the terrain. Lots of contiguous land with conditions which inhibit human movement over it. The dogs push out the deer to the hunters who can then shoot them. Another management tool. Hunters who use dogs in my area, even to take advantage of dogs running bear or raccoon, are considered among the misbegotten.

As to baiting. That's a method the legality of which varies widely across the country. I personally think there's little moral difference in hunting a food plot and hunting over a feeder. BUT the legal difference is huge in Virginia.

Now, to make some of you sick to your stomach, I know of one farmer who kills 400+ deer each year on his farm(s), legally. No, he does not allow hunters.

As to the spear, knife, etc. comment made, some people HAVE moved towards that but some/most of those guys hunt with dogs (as was done in the days when those tools were the primary/common ones used in hunting). It isn't legal everywhere.

[FWiedner]

I hunt for meat.

I enjoy a nice day in the woods, or the mountains, or the desert, but if I go to hunt I intend to bring something back. Hunting is too expensive to prepare equipment for the tasks involved, to travel, and sometimes to process, to come home empty handed.

I value life. I don't kill things for fun. I kill animals for bounty or for food on my family's table. I respect animals as living things, but I don't worship them. Sometimes the hunting activity can be cruel, but I don't buy into deliberate cruelty to man or beast.

I do not regard myself as a 'sport' hunter. I hunt to provide my family with the meat that I want, and that I want them to eat. I can afford to go the grocery store and buy any cut of meat in the place, but I don't like what they have to offer. Game meat is a healthier choice. I eat an occassional burger or beef-steak from a commercial establishment but those are not a main-stay in my diet and I don't keep store bought meat in any of my freezers. I've been hunting for about 40 years, and I keep tokens of some of my hunts, but I've never felt like taking a 'trophy'. I think I'll go on my first 'sport' hunt for a 'trophy' next year sometime.

I do not advocate breaking the law or violating any public or private game management regulation. There was one lease I hunted whereon the owner insisted that any stray or feral dog be shot on sight as a condition of maintaining the lease, other than that he didn't care if you used spit wads or explosives to "get rid of those d****d deer." If you saw a dog, and he knew that you saw it and you didn't shoot it, your hunting days on his (really nice) ranch were over. The place was thick with White-tail, Aoudad, and small game of every description. He ran cattle and didn't want the dogs harassing his livestock.

Were I to hunt with anyone in this forum, in their state or on their land and I were unfamiliar with the locale, I would most likely politely play the game by their rules and mimic their method. I would not demand, but would strongly recommend that they do it 'my way' in my territory. A failure to cooperate with a 'local' technique might result in an empty game bag and a violation of the law or the land owner's rules, to boot.

People hunt for different reasons, and as to the preferred hunting method or technique, people usually have a reason for the (odd) things that they do.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

[Hobie]

I hunt for meat.

I enjoy a nice day in the woods, or the mountains, or the desert, but if I go to hunt I intend to bring something back. Hunting is too expensive to prepare equipment for the tasks involved, to travel, and sometimes to process, to come home empty handed.

I value life. I don't kill things for fun. I kill animals for bounty or for food on my family's table. I respect animals as living things, but I don't worship them. Sometimes the hunting activity can be cruel, but I don't buy into deliberate cruelty to man or beast.

I do not regard myself as a 'sport' hunter. I hunt to provide my family with the meat that I want, and that I want them to eat. I can afford to go the grocery store and buy any cut of meat in the place, but I don't like what they have to offer. Game meat is a healthier choice. I eat an occassional burger or beef-steak from a commercial establishment but those are not a main-stay in my diet and I don't keep store bought meat in any of my freezers. I've been hunting for about 40 years, and I keep tokens of some of my hunts, but I've never felt like taking a 'trophy'. I think I'll go on my first 'sport' hunt for a 'trophy' next year sometime.

I do not advocate breaking the law or violating any public or private game management regulation. There was one lease I hunted whereon the owner insisted that any stray or feral dog be shot on sight as a condition of maintaining the lease, other than that he didn't care if you used spit wads or explosives to "get rid of those d****d deer." If you saw a dog, and he knew that you saw it and you didn't shoot it, your hunting days on his (really nice) ranch were over. The place was thick with White-tail, Aoudad, and small game of every description. He ran cattle and didn't want the dogs harassing his livestock.

Were I to hunt with anyone in this forum, in their state or on their land and I were unfamiliar with the locale, I would most likely politely play the game by their rules and mimic their method. I would not demand, but would strongly recommend that they do it 'my way' in my territory. A failure to cooperate with a 'local' technique might result in an empty game bag and a violation of the law or the land owner's rules, to boot.

People hunt for different reasons, and as to the preferred hunting method or technique, people usually have a reason for the (odd) things that they do.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

When you move around a lot, as I have, that's a good policy!

[6pt-sika]

We don't think of a deer as being a rat or groundhog. I guess when you think deer are rats anything goes.
Just not at my place! Deer to me are so much more.

A living thing is a living thing regardless of whether it may be a "rat or groundhog" as you say ! Or a deer !

So to say one wild creature is above the other is ridiculouse !

While I am not an advocate of eating the mighty Groundhog I have in my time run across folks that were !
And one or two of them I actually think preferred a Groundhog to deer for table fare .
Quite frankly if and that is a huge if , you were ever on my property . You would hunt from a stand and not leave it until i came to get you . And as I am quite positive you couldn't follow the "house rules" so to speak you would be told to exit stage left

Talk about being kludged and the way you carry on and on about those little baby elk deer you shoot.(their just like rats right?)
All the same?-------------
Give me a break?
Pal, trust me I don't need to hunt your little place and surely won't.
When you start hunting a real deer like a whitetail and give up that easy dumbed down baby elk prey(their just like rats) maybe you will then feel true non penned hunting.
Deer, same as Rats??????????????? Maybe the Sika ?????????????? Get Real!
Course I suppose there are people that eat rats ????????

Frankly after people like you !

It sometimes make me wish this country had STAYED divided in 1865 !

Because after reading a good bit of what you say it shows me that IGNORANCE is alive and well in New York as long as you're there !

[6pt-sika]

I really don't think the insurance companies like that we lead the nation in deer/car collisions, but we do and we all know "money" is the deciding factor in law, not righteousness.

Get on Interstate 81 or 80 or 84 in PA and watch how a good many of the people drive or ESPECIALLY on the Turnpike .

I personally feel the way a good many of them drive has a lot to do with the many deer related accidents in your state !

Their not from Pa---check the plates------------their from further down south!

They are from PA , NY , etc etc !

Perhaps you need to visit the optometrist and have your bifocals renewed !

[6pt-sika]

Ah, running deer with dogs. Yes, in some parts of the country it is considered right and it is legal. Here in VA the Commonwealth has something of a split personality on the subject with it being allowed in some places and not in others. .

They had an open forum of the VA DGIF website a year or so ago on this one !

They also had the same thing on making sunday hunting legal in the Commonwealth .

Seemed one faction was against the other .

Personally I have no problem with hound hunters , although thats not my thing . Only thing I've ever used dogs for were birds and rabbits !
The sunday hunting issue was something I liked the idea of , but in this state it will never fly since it's my understanding that it has to be voted on in the state legislature .

[rjohns94]

May I remind everyone here: This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely!!!!


lets stop the name calling and the emotional ranting and discuss it politely please.

[Streetstar]

.

I enjoy a nice day in the woods, or the mountains, or the desert, but if I go to hunt I intend to bring something back. Hunting is too expensive to prepare equipment for the tasks involved, to travel, and sometimes to process, to come home empty handed.

Bingo !

[Mac in Mo]

To Madman45/70,

If you decide to leave this forum over this, so be it. That is obviously your choice. I do think you have contributed much to this place. I don't post nearly much but check in just about every day.
Differing opinions make for better conversation.My objections to your and Sixgun's posts were not that you have an opinion, we all do. It was to the denigration of a large percentage of your fellow hunters. I found that low and not up to the standards of this forum, and had to speak up. I also went back and re-read the posts to make sure that I wasn't reading too much into what was posted. I know that having true conversations in this format are difficult and try to take that into account. I know that my "typing" skills stink, and I say a lot less than I would like due to that.
The fact remains of what you said and the childish name calling just got worse as things went along. You stated your passion for this subject and that it is good we are all not face to face. I think that this would have been a much more civilized conversation face to face.
I have hunted all of my life and am used to being called all kinds of different names from those who refuse to accept it is a part of life. It is different, though, when a fellow hunter puts out the stuff you guys did over something such as this. I think that maybe you were to quick to group all the different tactics into one bunch and that may be where a miscommunication lies. I think in a face to face , true conversation, we could have had this sorted out much easier. I have tried to stay civil and hope it came across as no less.
Let me state that I agree there are some "slobs" out there. I have seen my share. I doubt those types are on this forum, I've seen nothing to indicate that.
I guess I will end this rambling here.


Kevin

Edit: sorry for the one giant paragraph, it wasn't like that when I typed it.

[madman4570]

kevin,

That disrespect on this topic travels both ways.
Read above posts!
If people want to compare a cockroach or rat or stinkbug in the same regards as a Deer/Bear/Dog/Cat/---Their choice.
An example ----when a Sportsmen hunts bird--------How/what is the method of taking a bird of flight.(Quail/Pheasant /Grouse ?
Do you shoot them in flight or do you wait and shoot them when landed on a tree.(not the legal thing,the sportsmen thing?)

On the post 6pt had (Phillipines 09) direct quote of his---------------Hunting birds adventure.
We hunted from blinds on the edge of a cliff or bluff about 90 feet above sea level and waited for the birds to land in the treetops .
Let me be clear,any and all birds I have ever shot since after the age of 12 have been on the ground(turkeys and such)or while in flight.
to hunt in a blind and wait for the birds (Pigeons) to land in the trees and snipe them is in my opinion (cheating again)
What do they say about cheating ----Once a ----------- always a ---------------
Maybe he picked it up over there but here that's not being a sportsmen.(or was that only meat gathering too)? Over there yup!

At least he could have shot them in the air?
Pitiful! Reminds me of some 8 year old sniping the poor birds with his BB gun from mommy's bird bath.
But at least the 8 year old wasn't in a blind!
But again, heck it was probably legal over yonder, so?

[vancelw]

May I remind everyone here: This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely!!!!


lets stop the name calling and the emotional ranting and discuss it politely please.

Amen. But apparently, some people just don't get it.

[Sixgun]

I've skinned , gutted and cut up as many as 7 in a day by myself !

Thats impressive! Did any of 'em bite back? ---------Sixgun

[harry]

All I can say is madman4570 you must be one sick puppy, you must have been saving that post of 6pt's for 2 years just so you could throw it back at him.
Harry

[vancelw]

So which is it? You can't call someone a cheat and then be "cool with it" and you can't call someone a cheat and have them be "good guys". It's intellectually dishonest and rides a very high fence. But the statements made by some usually level headed members is a little disheartening.
LK

Anyone who says, "get a bow and arrow, spear, or a knife to hunt" is just being an idiot to the arguement---go away

No they are not being idiots.
What they are saying is that it is ridiculous to call some forms of hunting (or shooting or culling) "cheating" while saying some forms are okay. Like they said, customs and traditions vary from place to place. There is a reason it is illegal to use you bear hands or a knife to hunt deer (in TX). Because you are likely to wound a deer without killing it, and most people don't see strangling a deer, snapping it's neck, or stabbing it to death as "humane". So the laws require that we use a legal means to hunt. Gun, bow, (and just recently in TX) crossbow.

It's okay to have a differing opinion. Just do it politely.

[6pt-sika]

On the post 6pt had (Phillipines 09) direct quote of his---------------Hunting birds adventure.
We hunted from blinds on the edge of a cliff or bluff about 90 feet above sea level and waited for the birds to land in the treetops .
Let me be clear,any and all birds I have ever shot since after the age of 12 have been on the ground(turkeys and such)or while in flight.
to hunt in a blind and wait for the birds (Pigeons) to land in the trees and snipe them is in my opinion (cheating again)
What do they say about cheating ----Once a ----------- always a ---------------
Maybe he picked it up over there but here that's not being a sportsmen.(or was that only meat gathering too)? Over there yup!

At least he could have shot them in the air?
Pitiful! Reminds me of some 8 year old sniping the poor birds with his BB gun from mommy's bird bath.
But at least the 8 year old wasn't in a blind!
But again, heck it was probably legal over yonder, so?

I don't feel the need to explain my actions to you as you've shown me quite well that you are incapable of seeing anything but your own little narrow BS !

If you wanna trapse around in the NY woods or where ever you may be do so and have at it !

Just don't ever set foot on any of my property leases or whatever !


But then I doubt if you have the comprehension or reading ability to understand what a POSTED sign means !

[6pt-sika]

I've skinned , gutted and cut up as many as 7 in a day by myself !

Thats impressive! Did any of 'em bite back? ---------Sixgun

No do you

For the record not all of those deer were killed by me !

[madman4570]

All I can say is madman4570 you must be one sick puppy, you must have been saving that post of 6pt's for 2 years just so you could throw it back at him.
Harry

Harry, that truely was not the case(saving anything for use for something)
I just have in my view my posts any and all things I commented on.It just is there,saves it automatically.
But you are right,I looked for that. Sure did!
I spent 5 mins viewing that one to show because he also is not without sin on this topic.(know,to turn it around,who is he to insist all animals are the same to whoever?)
I wanted to make a point cause I was ticked,no saving/long searching nothing.Just wanted to return the rounds that was coming from his direction.

Anyhow-----------------------This battle of words is getting no one nowhere and doing no one any good,so with me I will step back and let bygones be bygones if that is acceptable to those that feel the want.(if not,I won't lose any sleep over it)
Sick puppy??? Been called that before---------however harry I like dogs!