What's wrong w/ a .357?

[Old Savage]

CO Steve - "There is a limit to everything, however. There is a thread on The Firing Line where OP is asking for opinions on which is better, a .17HMR or .22WMR rifle for his needs. He's interested in rabbit hunting out to 200yds and larger varmints out to 125yds, "... we'll likely be shooting raccoons, coyotes and possibly small to medium sized hogs, and I know shot placement is key in these situations, however not as much when using a larger round such as the 2 WMR."

"A '22WMR is considered a larger round? Seriously? And yes, I know that 40grn .22wmr is larger than 17grn .17hmr but does anyone consider the 22WMR 'large'? I've got to say that the OP's opinion of adequate performance is skewed pretty far from what I've seen as generally acceptable minimum performance. I guess he would be content with a 357mag for moose and a 308 for elephant."


Same thing in the world of pellet guns with the mighty Crow Magnum. All a matter of scale.

[Griff]

There is a limit to everything, however. There is a thread on The Firing Line where OP is asking for opinions on which is better, a .17HMR or .22WMR rifle for his needs. He's interested in rabbit hunting out to 200yds and larger varmints out to 125yds, "... we'll likely be shooting raccoons, coyotes and possibly small to medium sized hogs, and I know shot placement is key in these situations, however not as much when using a larger round such as the 22 WMR."
A 22WMR is considered a larger round? Seriously? And yes, I know that 40grn .22wmr is larger than 17grn .17hmr but does anyone consider the 22WMR 'large'? I've got to say that the OP's opinion of adequate performance is skewed pretty far from what I've seen as generally acceptable minimum performance. I guess he would be content with a 357mag for moose and a 308 for elephant.

Use of generalized qualifiers is not recommended for making assumptions. "Small", "medium" or "large" are ill defined... And can be very different based on one's perceptions. My idea of a medium-sized hog is about 125-150lbs. What's his?

Remember, those "Swamp People" kill a 700# alligator with nuttin' but a .22LR! IMO that's a HUGE 'gator, but they seem to feel it's just "good-sized"!

Just sayin'!

[COSteve]

They might but that's a shot at inches distance and down the throat. That's a whole lot different than at 125yds.

[Old Savage]

Distance is the issue. I have a 300 Ruger Compact Magnum that will shoot a 180 Gr pointy bullet at 3000 fps and the first group after sight in was 5/8" at 100 yds. Obviously that is going to reach the minimum effective velocity, MEV, somewhere - just way farther out than a 170 gr. 30-30 or a 158 or 180 gr .357. So where does that happen with each and are there other problems like wind drift or drop or range estimation? And will the bullet perform at that distance? Each bullet has a MEV. Put it in the right place within the range and bingo. No mystery.

[86er]

I go through great lengths to test ammo/bullets/calibers/loads. Moreso when it is for my own use or my kids. When my boys wanted to deer and hog hunt, I looked at lots of calibers and rifles. I thought they would manage a .223 or a 260. Not so, they did not like the noise even with good earmuffs. They did not like the 30-30 out of a bolt or lever (I think it was psychological with the "big" looking cartridge). Finally we tried the 357 Mag levergun. Practice was good with 38 Spl using 110 gr loads and accuracy of a 5 and 6 year old was good at 50 yards. I loaded some 158gr magnums that go 1740 fps from the 16" bbl. The rifle is also kinda heavy being near 7 pounds, but the stock fits and has a good recoil pad and they shoot off of sticks, so the whole deal keeps the recoil down. The boys shoot the peep sight with the aperature removed (ala ghost ring) very well and they also can use a scout scope since it keeps weight forward to further reduce muzzle jump and recoil and prevents the possibility of them getting whacked with the scope. A few 357 mags at the end of practice with 38's are virtually unnoticed by the boys. Loading these for hunting would not raise their suspicions as only one - maybe two shots should be needed. I shot up a lot of deer out to 100 yds with different loads. Some of these deer were already dead and some were culled on this ranch I was helping to manage where 90+ does were ordered to be shot by TXDPW due to the herd size. In my experimentations, the most consistent bullet (that also equals reliable) was the 158gr Speer Flat Point. At a velocity of 1700-1800 fps (1740 was most accurate for this rifle) it exited all deer within 100 yards that were shot broadside through the ribs (lungs). That is the only shot I would allow the boys to take at this point. At 125 yards it seemed to hold on but at 150 yards it clearly lost performance. The groups opened considerably beyond 120 yards and the bullet performance became inconsistent - some expand some not, some stay their course, others tumble or turn, etc. So, for our TX deer out to 100 yds the 158gr Speer FP worked very well. Prior to this experimentation I was not an advocate of using 357 on deer and I had seen some less than desirable things happen when clients used it. The bullet matters - a lot! - and the velocity matters! In order to stretch this out to 150 yard and to account for some bigger animals and less than perfect shot presentations I am using the 360 DW cartridge in the same rifle. That allows for a 180 grain at 1920 fps! I know the 357 Mag will not reach this but I think something of a compromise can be achieved with some experimentation - either a 180 gr NP or A-Frame a bit slower or a 158 gr Speer FP at near the same velocity. The 357 has proven more than adequate on over a dozen deer this past season as long as the shots are accurate, the presentation is favorable and the range is 100 yds or less.

[Ji in Hawaii]

The 357 mag is my current favorite hunting cartridge combined with a compact, lightweight, very handy trapper length firearm (Rossi R357S, Winchester 94AE Ranger Compact). It has proved to me time and again to be more than adequate for deer size game and smaller. My longest shot was 125 yards using a 158 grain soft point on a wild billy goat. It was obvious that this billy did not read gun rags or have internet access as he dropped in his tracks hammer of Thor style right then and there. Also a ton of fun plinking with using 38 Special ammo.

[tman]

...357mag for moose and a 308 for elephant.

That makes sense to me!

Both have been killed with less.

[Old Savage]

Think I will go with 86ers take on this rather than some of the what is the smallest thing I can kill something with. Jim Carmichael said he would be willing to take a sizeable bet that he could take all American game with a 22 Hornet. He also said that would be something of a stunt and not to be recommended. In the mean time I think I will get some Speer 158 gr flat points. I have seen a lot of bad shooting with good cartridges on a couple of antelope hunts. Not being sure how anyone can shoot - I think that cartridges that become marginal should not be added to the formula but that of course does not mean that any of the accomplished Nimrods here cannot use it to good effect to its maximum effective range.

[BigSky56]

I use a 357 as my bear defense gun loaded with 180 LBT HCGC its what I use when I go out and about in a vehicle or horseback and brn bears are rearend deep around here. I recommend a short barreled DA pistol in a medium or small frame that way you will carry it with you and not leave it in the vehicle or camp. When Iam riding and packing stock its in a shoulder or cross draw holster. Till they reintroduce T-Rex a 357 will work. danny

[Old Ironsights]

Often, it's not a matter of "what is the smallest thing I can kill something with".

I don't think that's what any of us are implying.

And despite your use of the historically derogatory term "Nimrod" (which actually means "Mighty Hunter", not "idiot") many who use the .357 do so because that's all they have/a rifle cartridge is "illegal".

Being able to hunt ethically with a .357 is (here anyway) more likely evidence of proficiency than trying to prove a point.

At >100yds a properly loaded .357 is equal to a .30-30. It is not "marginal" and has certain advantages that the .30/30 doesn't - namely a short-throw and fractionally more rapid followup (I've shouldered a .357 & killed 2 deer with 2 shots in the space of 3 second at around 40yds. I'm not sure I could have made the 2nd shot with a .30-30...)

So, in that, I guess I will go ahead and take "Nimrod" as a compliment...

[Old Ironsights]

I use a 357 as my bear defense gun loaded with 180 LBT HCGC its what I use when I go out and about in a vehicle or horseback and brn bears are rearend deep around here. I recommend a short barreled DA pistol in a medium or small frame that way you will carry it with you and not leave it in the vehicle or camp. When Iam riding and packing stock its in a shoulder or cross draw holster. Till they reintroduce T-Rex a 357 will work. danny

Yep. I keep my 180gr WFNs in my SP101 for that sort of work. Hits 1200fps out of the 2" snubby. I think that should suffice...

[tman]

Think I will go with 86ers take on this rather than some of the what is the smallest thing I can kill something with. Jim Carmichael said he would be willing to take a sizeable bet that he could take all American game with a 22 Hornet. He also said that would be something of a stunt and not to be recommended. In the mean time I think I will get some Speer 158 gr flat points. I have seen a lot of bad shooting with good cartridges on a couple of antelope hunts. Not being sure how anyone can shoot - I think that cartridges that become marginal should not be added to the formula but that of course does not mean that any of the accomplished Nimrods here cannot use it to good effect to its maximum effective range.

Bell thought a .308 WCF. would make an excellent elephant killer. He was known to knock down a few with less powerfull calibers. I'll bet more moose were harvested with a 44-40, than any ten of the super magnums combined. Extreme examples, but old school worked.

[Old Savage]

That was for old schoolers. I'll buy the 308 ammo - you shoot the elephants, send the video on real time wireless in case it doesn't work out.

[tman]

That was for old schoolers. I'll buy the 308 ammo - you shoot the elephants, send the video on real time wireless in case it doesn't work out.

If u pay for my Safari, I'm taking my 1895 SRC 30-06 and 1886 SRC 45-70. I'll send you the film and we'll split the meat

[tman]

And a 4" .357 loaded with 180grain Buffalo Bores, incase u are right